Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Dago on April 22, 2000, 08:18:00 AM
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Last night I engaged my Panzer against flying aircraft that were attacking me. I managed to hit some and score some victories before I died.
My tally in the end for one Panzer mission was 6 victories. I believe, most if not all were aircraft actually hit by my cannon rounds. I saw the round strike the aircraft on most occasions.
Has anyone done had similar results? Or am I a record holder?
Dago
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Shhh, don't let funked hear you... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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I've been lucky (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
It'a ALWAYS been easy to nail the enemy bogy who's flying flat and shallow at me and when they fill my site at D7 I let loose.
It's like the ultimate HO. Only they lose.
I know for a fact that P-47 pilots in post D-Day action NEVER flew towards a Panzer or Tiger head on. Then again they could see the direction of the turret and in most cases thay came in at a steeper dive angle than most folks here do.
I've talked to two P-47 pilots who were in on the action against the Axis forces in southern France after D-Day. They simply did NOT come in at 100 feet HO against a tank.
-Westy
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Sorry no record.
Darn nice shooting though (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The first night that 1.02 was out I lost count of how many tiffies & F4u's I shot down. One sortie had 14 or 15 kills, several assists. Sure is fun to watch those planes go BOOM!
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Maj Ghosth
XO 332nd Flying Mongrels
(http://www.ropescourse.org/cghosth.jpg)
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The reason they never flew head on to the german tanks is that they had know weapon that would hurt a german tank from the front, not because there is a snowballs chance in hell of hitting a fighter with a tanks main armament.
I was hit in a f4 at 3.5k crossing at 250mph...
That is so rediculous that I dont know what to say.
People shooting down 10+ tanks with a 70 round magazine..
I realise that the other side (air to ground) is probably as out of wack depending on the skill of the pilot but this speaks volumes about what is not being modeled on those tank rounds...Would the HE round on a kwk 40 even fuse against anything but a direct hit on an aircraft....?
Although...it probably could be effecitve if it hit without exploding...
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
[This message has been edited by Pongo (edited 04-22-2000).]
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It's completely ridiculous, and it makes one wonder if there are serious issues with the gunnery model.
That said, I've done it 4 times in a single tank mission.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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It is zoom...
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
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My nephew was a tanker in Abrams they had no qualms about engagin AC or rotorheads with the main. Now he's a rotorhead himself and shows them tanks alot of respect, tells me its the velocity of the gun & targeting mechs. Thats why he hides behind trees n stuff in that kiowa.
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I have a friend who was a platoon commander of Abrams. He said that Helos would be reasonably easy, and they trained for both rotory and fixed wing, but he had no real expectaion of hitting a Frogfoot. The other thing is that it would be an entirely different thing to hit a airplane with a modern tank as opposed to a WWII tank. The turret would not tranverse faste enough and the gun will not elevate fast enough to have a real shot at it.
Sisu
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Well...im sure your nephew is a nice guy but..engagin with the miles gear is one thing..engagin the real thing another..
quick every one dig up there accounts(non haunted tank) of MA kills on fighters by tanks in any war.
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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The point was lost here rather quickly. I have at least 6 a.c. kills in panzers, and all but one were relatively easy. The trick is, most people approach a tank too shallow, and pay no attention to the turret direction. When a plane is strafing, it is easy to watch it, anticipate its direction of attack, and have turret waiting for him. Then at about D7 or closer, BOOM, down he goes. I think this is realistic as far as the modeling goes... straight ahead shot at virtually point blank range... the unrealistic part is that people flying here don't feel the vulnerability of a real pilot in a real plane, and they don't attack intelligently. I have been in an a.c. attacking a panzer as well, and found it quite easy to attack safely- simply maintain a fairly steep angle of attack, and pay attention to turret direction as you approach. If he is pointing your direction, you can continue the attack, or pull up, bypass, and come back in for another steep pass. Shallow attacks are a tanker's dream. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
(http://www.tcsn.net/aramis/skorpjg2.gif)
[This message has been edited by Skorpyon (edited 04-23-2000).]
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Yup, exactly Skorp, all 6 kills I got on that one sortie were just like you discussed. Each came in very shallow, rock steady right at my turret gun. I just held my fire until they were very close, and it is almost hard to miss.
A few did come at steeper angles, and for them I was helpless. The turret just doesnt elevate very far.
Dago
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Skorp.
I was killed at 3.5k crossing at 250mph by the main armement of a pziv..
what point is being lost in that?
something is wrong.
You describe your kills like they are realistic or something..while not as extremly silly as what happend to me, they are still far from realisic, you seem to think people shooting at tanks with no fear for their lives is unrealistic but you are sitting in a vehicle that is basically defencless against the aircraft and you are shooting......It is acctually your willingness to return fire that is unrealisic.
You are combining outside views on table top terrain to find and track the ac combining that knowledge into a tracking and fireing solution that simpily was imposible to accomplish in the real vehicle.
You are probably maintaining a rate of fire that would quickly destroy the main armement as well.
I agree that it is quite simple to kill tanks with an f4u1c for example. And the balance of the game is probably ok in this regard, but its not realisic.
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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I see it simpler:
2 problems:
A. you can't currently see turret orientation. I have confidence this will be fixed.
B. The turret traverses far too fast and tracks far too well.
(has anyone else figured out how to traverse up to 180 degrees in <1 sec?)
A. Will be fixed. Hopefully B. will too.
Still, dweeby as they are I love main gun kills, especially on big stuff like B26s and 17s.
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I like the guy that said he brothers sisters cousin was a tanker...
BS BS BS and one more BS
I was in air defense (mech)(light infantry) in the army... No way in hell is the main gun of a tank going to hit a fast mover.....Now the commander's .50 cal and the gunners 7.62 coax might have a chance but not much...now lighter apc's M2a2 Bradley comes to mind with its high rate of fire 25mm cannon maybe if a you win the lotto that day and feel lucky you might hit a fast mover....
Even weapon systems designed to shoot down aircraft: Vulcan 20mm gatling cannon still can't hit all the time even with its radar guidence.. dead eye shooting was pathetic at best... now the vulcan did put alot of shells in the air enough to deter attack thats it....
Thats why the army came up with missle technology, becuase ground fire just doesn't cut it vs aircraft....
If modern technology balsitics have a slim to no chance hitting then why is there a debate on this...
Give me one report of a ww2 tank downing a aircraft with its main gun.... Hard finding it...... Becuase there is none....
I was shot down the other night doing 400mph crossing pattern, thats twice as fast as any modern attack helo... Thats a flaw big time.... not relistic, even arcade like....
To HTC you have a great game so far please fix this exploit.....
Note i call it a exploit becuase when you can get 5-10 kills in a tank vs aircraft thats a exploit to me.
My suggestion to fix this problem and make it playable for ground pounders would be to link the main gun and a coax... this would provide limited deterent against aircraft..
2 tanks could protect eachother.
Flame on
DoctorYO
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5 a/c kills with my PzIV last night (most of them Hangtime...thx for the target practice (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)). Btw, you can traverse the turret 180 degrees in < 1 second when you've already lost one track but the engine is still ok; just put it into gear and gun it forward for a second...she'll spin like a top.
As for how easy it is to hit a moving a/c with the main gun, well most AH pilots make it easy on the tanker. A shallow straight in approach is asking to take one up the nose. Come in high, use a steep dive angle, and approach from off-angle until you're almost in your own weapon's release envelope. Should it be possible to hit an a/c with the gun at all? Yes, but it should be extremely rare. However, pilots in AH take risks that a real-life combat pilot wouldn't so the losses are proportionately higher. Just like attacking a buff, if you do an anti-armor attack properly you're unlikely to get your head handed to you.
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Sabre, a.k.a. Rojo
(S-2, The Buccaneers)
[This message has been edited by Rojo (edited 04-24-2000).]
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DoctorYo I'll tell you a little secret if you promise not to tell anyone else.
There is a machine gun linked to the turret that you can fire. It's the alternate trigger button. I have it set on my stick and use it all the time. You can elevate the main gun at planes and fire at them even in a crossing pattern.
I did shoot down a plane with one of these after he made several passes, but I must have been a bit lucky. He was a lousy shot or he would have killed me before I could manage all those hits during all his passes.
As for the main gun, well I agree that it should be very rare to be able to hit a plane with one of those.
Ranger Bob
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Just figured this out last night myself Bob. Trick is it's not mapped, you have to go in and set it (under Gunner). Sure is a lot easier than trying to turn the tank to face oncoming aircraft (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Fatty
FAT DRUNK BASTARDS (http://fdb.50megs.com)
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OK for everyone who doesn't belive that it is possible to kill a plane with a tank's main gun, there is a book called "P-47 Pilots : The Fighter-Bomber Boys" by Tom Glenn, a P-47 fighter-bomber himself. It states there that pilots were afraid to do shallow runs on tanks because of danger being hit by their main gun. That and German air defences made them to attack their targets at high angles of attack.
Now, how easy is it to hit a plane in a tank? Well if you can turn your turret fast enough and aim, I don't see anything unreliastic about that. For everyone who does tank busting, I would suggest attacking targets at high angles. You risk hitting the ground, but you minimize your chances being hit by M16s and tank's main gun simply can't elevate that high. You also make it easier for yourself to aim with rockets and bombs.
mx22
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Man, that's old news Dago (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Used to see it all the time in...
...suspense
is
building...
...Are
you
ready
for
this?...
The Haunted Tank Comic book. Yup, that good ole "Lee" knocked them Nazis down like flies with its pop gun. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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Tern
"Live to Fly! Fly to Fight! Fight to Live!"
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"There I was, inverted at 50 feet and 120 kts. and the only thing running was the radio."
[This message has been edited by Tern (edited 04-24-2000).]
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Originally posted by mx22:
OK for everyone who doesn't belive that it is possible to kill a plane with a tank's main gun, there is a book called "P-47 Pilots : The Fighter-Bomber Boys" by Tom Glenn, a P-47 fighter-bomber himself. It states there that pilots were afraid to do shallow runs on tanks because of danger being hit by their main gun. That and German air defences made them to attack their targets at high angles of attack.
Now, how easy is it to hit a plane in a tank? Well if you can turn your turret fast enough and aim, I don't see anything unreliastic about that. For everyone who does tank busting, I would suggest attacking targets at high angles. You risk hitting the ground, but you minimize your chances being hit by M16s and tank's main gun simply can't elevate that high. You also make it easier for yourself to aim with rockets and bombs.
mx22
Please provide quote from said book of this happening.
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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Originally posted by Pongo:
Please provide quote from said book of this happening.
Pongo,
You'll have to wait on this one a bit. Would take me time to find the quote.
mx22
[This message has been edited by mx22 (edited 04-29-2000).]
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Ok, that was easier then I expected.
Here we go:
Book name: "P-47 Pilots The Fighter Bomber Boys"
Author: Tom Glenn
p.43 paragraph 5
"With nowhere to hide, they had to fight, and fight they did.The Tiger tank with its deadly 88 was one hell of a weapon, but the gunners couldn't seem to handle it too well against us. This is understandable when you consider the tank was moving - taking evasive action - and we were moving - skidding and slipping, twisting and turning, until the very last second before shooting. It was suicide to fly on a straight line attack course into a tank; the tank gunner could get a direct bead on you, and the 88 would blow you out of the sky."
So here we go. In AH tank is most probably standing when it shoots or aims. With people doing shallow runs on armor, I see why we pilots get blown up out of the sky. Panzer is no Tiger of course, but it's main gun is not a bb gun either.
mx22
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Bingo. That was the quote I'd been thinking of too. Buit I'd loaned that book out over a year ago and it wasn't around. But I also have it from two P-47 pilots, from the 350th FG that flew FB missions with the P-47, that this was true also.
-Westy
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Your quote doesnt say it happend.
The author is more musing about it...Please find the account of this happening.
The panzer IV would be more likely to be effecitve at this then the tiger. The extra HE power of the 88 L56 is not required to kill the AC. There is no altitude or proximity fuzing in effect. The faster travers of the PzIv would make it a better anti AC tank then the tiger... What is needed in the game is an early panzer III. 37mm gun(might as well be a 200mm if it hits the ac, Tones of ammo, very high rate of fire,2 coax MGs, very fast turrent travers. Imagine all the aircraft they must have shot down whith those babies...
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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Originally posted by Pongo:
Your quote doesnt say it happend.
The author is more musing about it...Please find the account of this happening.
The panzer IV would be more likely to be effecitve at this then the tiger. The extra HE power of the 88 L56 is not required to kill the AC. There is no altitude or proximity fuzing in effect. The faster travers of the PzIv would make it a better anti AC tank then the tiger... What is needed in the game is an early panzer III. 37mm gun(might as well be a 200mm if it hits the ac, Tones of ammo, very high rate of fire,2 coax MGs, very fast turrent travers. Imagine all the aircraft they must have shot down whith those babies...
Pongo,
Quote that I gave you above is enough to prove that tanks were capable and did brought planes down. If it wasn't the case, I'm pretty sure author would not have mentioned it. If you have a problem with that, I guess it's better for you to contact him and find out about all the details.
On the other hand, I want to see what prove do you have that tanks couldn't shoot at planes. I seen a lot of talk here, but no prove whatsoever at why tank couldn't hit diving plane.
All the gunner had to do is line up gun with a shallow diving plane and shoot. HE or AP, doesn't matter. It won't matter if the round will explode or not either - it's big enough to make fatal damage to plane by simply flying all the way through plane structure.
mx22
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Sorry
Your quote proves no such thing. This author thought about the possability and I belive those jug pilots thought about the possibility too. Probably even the panzer crews thought about the possibility.
But if the only "proof" you have is some one mentioning that it was posssible I dont think that the number of times it happens in Aces High justifies that. I would say that it happens more times in a night in AH than it happend in the war.(if it ever happend)
The scenario about vulching a field is of course different. Obviosly that is possible and a logical extension of how this game is played.
I dont think that we need discuss it further. You like that it happens in the game and think it is realisic. I dont like it and am waiting for an account to back up the capability.
The only practical experiance I have is shooting a turrented 50cal at a target drone. But that was enough to convice me of the challenges involved. Shooting at a moving vehicle at 600m from a stationary vehicle was beyond the capabilities of most tank gunners. But I guess we are alot more skilled then them.
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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I have to go with Pongo on this one. I don't suspect many A/C were shot down by tanks using their main gun during WWII, nor any other war where tanks had a significant role. IF WWII been fought on the "Moonscape" similiar to the AH terrain there might have been more.
Granted it is fun blowing an attackng A/C out of the sky with a single well placed round. Look in this thread (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/003026.html), the Panzer has a better G2A kill stat than the M16. Where the M16 is pretty much intended for this sole purpose, at least considering how it is currently used.
The point that is really coming across to me is that who really needs the M16?
All this can be fixed game wise by the additionally hardening of the Panzer's armor. This will restrict the use of gun strafing attacks by their being largely in-effective. It will also require the use of bombs primarily or rockets, which was probably more historically accurate for the vast majority of the time.
Good Luck on Your Tank Busting Missions! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 04-29-2000).]
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What can I tell you guys, but to fly smart. Attack at high angles of attack and tanks can't do anything. If you attack at angles where tanks can shoot you down, it's your fault that you die and there is no reason to cry.
mx22
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Exactly MX22. I'm not going to bother with this thread anymore. If some folks want to believe the Panzer is some 1990's tracked Phalanx system because of thier poor vehicle attacking methods then so be it. Nothing will convince someone to look for the problem in thier "M.O." when they refuse to believe that is where the problem could be to begin with.
-Westy
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LOL...
Ya thats it...the guy that disagrees with you and thinks that HTC has flubed this issue a little must be incompitent.
I was killed at over 3k flying at between 200 and 300 mph in a crossing shot.....
I have top attacked many tanks.. I know the proper teqnique. If you cant get your head out of your parachute place holder long enough to realize that the tanks are fundimentally too effective against AC then fine. My point still stands..where are the accounts of this happening..Destroyers where not this effecitive vs aircraft little own tanks. As I said earlier I have had the pleasure of engaging radio controled drones with a turrented 50 cal and 30cal combo. It is much tougher even with those weapons then it is in AH with a MA. But some fokes here seem to think this capability is justified probably because THEY are so compitent or something...
Enjoy the game.
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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Tanks now are so effective mostly because many pilots crash near them. True many get shot down during their wrong approaches, but as mentioned before it's all due to the poor delivery technique. What happened to you is a lucky shot by some guy in a tank. I bet given some luck same can happen in real life too. Now because you upset by being killed in this manner, it doesn't make a game any more unrealistic and your statements of tanks being unable to kill planes legit.
mx22
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I think Pongo's killing was a 1 in a million lucky shot. Get over it and move on.
If you HO a tank and it's main gun hits you, you die. Get over it.
If you auger attacking a tank, you die. get over it.
Or are you all saying a tank round should cause NO damage to your a/c? Get over it.
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Rock..
Hey thanks that clears things up. Good contribution.
I am trying to address a potential weakness in the game.
I am opposed by people that seem to put more credence on what HTC put together in a month then what 60 years of tank to AC engagments would indicate is feasable.
HTC will decide if there needs to be a change.
They are probably waiting with baited breath for that account of ANY tank in history killing ANY (airborne) fighter in history with its main armament.
If they made a change then all you drones could defend that to the death right or wrong... he he
Your are free to not participate.
Others have droped in to indicate that my experiance the second night of tanks in the game was not unique(although it hasent happend to me again.)
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Ok I just did a check on my stats in a Panzer and I show that out of 54 kills in it I have had 38 ground kills (tank and m16)and 16 air kills.
I don't see what the argument is really.
If you can get anything in your sights within range you should be able to shoot it down.
To say that tanks in real life couldn't or wouldn't do it is silly. If you had the shot and it was kill him or be killed you would try it to.
By the way I wouldn't even be able to tell you how many shots I've thrown in the air before I was able to hit anything.
I practice G to A alot in the TA and Main so I know it's not easy to do but it can be done.
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Mighty1
The New Baby Harp Seals
"Come try to club THIS Seal"
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OK
You must be right, if you can get it in your sight you should be able to shoot it down..what was I thinking.