Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Turbot on July 18, 2002, 12:41:45 PM
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Yesterday started seeing alot of Tri-bomber units coming in and more or less dive bombing the whole formation. At one point in NDISLES last night was a whole squad of em doing it with goons in trail (of course with the surviving bomber formations circling and strafing.).
Is this what heavy bomber gameplay is de-evolving to in the MA now? This can not be good.
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If you can't hit anything level bombing, I guess the only alternative is to dive. I've been practicing my tail off both on- and off-line, and I still drop short and long more often than I drop close to the target.
I haven't tried dive-bombing yet, but a few more fruitless runs and I'll be willing to give it a try.
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I would not dive bomb a heavy simply because it goes against the spirit of the aircraft and the game. If I want to dive bomb...I'll take up a dive bomber.
My level bombing skills are just as bad as everyone elses. I've got my calibration down, but I swear last night, I put a bombs all AROUND the hangar I was aiming at. It was funny to see a hanger encircled in craters. I would guess I'm hitting 30-40% of my targets when bombing from 10,000 feet, at 240 kts.
At 20,000 ft, and 200 kts, I have yet to hit anything. 0 for 5 from this altitude.
Adjusting for the 30kt wind is a nightmare.
But keep practicing.....
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I don't see this to be any different than the scores of typhoon and P38 suicides we've been seeing as of late.
I've gotten to the point that when I see a cloud of typhoons, I just hover near thier intended target and watch them nose dive in. They aren't intending on surviving anyway so I don't waste my time chasin'. Makes for a great pyrotechnics show however.
Just gamers I guess. Whatever dusts thier cookies.
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Well you can make a single pass on a base, drop all your bombs, and maybe kill one or two thing, even if you got a perfect calibration. Or you can divebomb, and get something resembling reasonable accuracy, without having to fly for 10minutes to stabilize your speed, and then another 10minutes just to turn around for another pass.
The fact that level bombing is not capable of doing damage is forcing divebombing. I'm not really sure how to fix it, but, the way bombing is now, you're better off divebombing after the first pass.
Maybe fields should be made denser, or the various groups of targets should be in tight clusters, so that bombers CAN damage a field. Maybe that should be done to strat instead, and then strat be made more important.
You can't really be upset that people are using bombers as effectivly as possible.
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I don't find the use of heavy Bombers for Dive-Bombing upsetting. It's just something I won't do. The point of AH FOR ME (Everyone plays as they want) is to be immersed in as realistic of a simulation as possible. So I strive to use the hardware as it was intended in WWII.
Like I said, this is just my taste. Some folks will agree. Others won't and that's perfectly fine. As long as everyone has a good time, is all that matters.
As for the current bombsight method, I think it's great. Buff drivers are required to have a significant amount of skill now, and the number of heavy specialists has thinned a great deal. I love a good challenge, and acutally hitting your intended target brings great satisfaction to me now.
I'm a happy buffer!
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Another post mentioned an intriguing idea of group bombing.
An experienced bombardier with excellent bombsight calibration skills would be in the lead bomber. Other players would fly in close formation with the lead bomber and drop their bombs on his command. I'm willing to try this option.
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Packy> No.9 Squadron have been using this method since v1.10 was released and use it well. For large formations this works very well providing the formation stays close, I'm talking less than 150 yards which is quite acheiveable when the other pilots only have to maintain formation and drop when ordered. We've practised various salvo's and delay's as well as this tactic and were accurate on drops before the bombsight was updated in patch 2. You will also never see us use heavy bombers as dive bombers or fly above 30K.
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WW2 , bombing of mainland japan:
GEN LeMay orders bombers to drop from 8000 ft agl because they are not hitting targets from 20,000 ft
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Remember? this is what happened in Air Warrior..they would take a B17 and when they weren't dogfighting a spit in it (and winning) they would divebomb the base with a few buffs..
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Those unable to properly calibrate and hit target in a level bombing run should be reassigned to kitchen duties! :p
Well most of them fly for Bishops anyway... :D
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Now I havent been pinging single acks with single 100ers. But I quit flying bombers about 3 months ago. When 1.10 came out I average now about 1 sortie a day. 1.10 but the fun back into bombing, I consider it a hit if I hit the field, dont matter if I get an ack or a fuel or maybe a hanger with my 36x500s Its fun. More fun then the old style ever was. Had one of the funnest sorties ever the other day nursing home a shot up formation where my lead had 1 engine left.
quit whining and learn how to bomb! lol
Or maybe HTC should model piper cubs for all you who cant bomb and you can haul mail:D
Another good thing about 1.10 is I have seen only 2! only 2 dogfighting bombers, 1 was a lone lanc turning like a spit got the assist on him as I was only carrying the hub gun in my 109. The other was a formation of b26s, I promptly recieved 2 kills as dweeby discovered drones don't snap roll.
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The problem though, isnt the difficulty of calibration, a monkey could be trained to drop bombs accurately.
The problem is that calibrating mean you get one pass, then have to spend 10minutes turning around, or just go strafe the field. Even with a perfect calibration, you can't do much damage in one pass.
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Originally posted by Oedipus
That's not a problem. That is an improvement.
Thanks,
Oed
Making bombers in groups of less than four or five completely worthless is an improvment? It's the reason it's better to divebomb in a b17 than to bother turning around for a second pass.
Trying to bomb a factory is no different from trying to bomb a field. Both are virtually all empty space and require pinpoint drops to actually inflict any damage. On top of that, strat targets have little effect on the game, especially on akdesert. We can take three people, hit three seperate strat targets, and then any fields we attack within the next hour will take another 20-30mins to repair(Except hangars which are hardly affected).
Never mind that by the time an attack gets there the strat has started repairing, and that if you can GET a successfull attack on a field, you might as well just cap it and wait for a goon.
Strat bombing, leaving bombers out of field attacks, sounds good. But in the game, strat bombing is pointless without the ability to bomb fields.
I'm not saying a lanc formation should be able to hit pinpoint targets across a field, simultaniously killing the fuel, hangars, radar, ammo and troops. But they SHOULD be arranged, so that a bomber can actually inflict damage, rather than, kill one or two objects and go home.
Currently, Bombers have nothing worth bombing.
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The worse it is for bombers the happier some people are. Was this way in Air Warrior. Was this way in Warbirds. It is this way in AH too. Temper input based on how many bomber sorties that person flies you will see a pattern :)
However, the orginal intent of this message was to put on record that dive bombing bombers is not something that should be encoiuraged. I hope that isn't in contention.
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This debat is gonna go on forever :D. I find that my dive bombing skills have much improved in my p51 since 1.10 came out . If I wanna make craters, I take a lanc formation up with 14K, if I wanna kill something, I take a hvy 51 or jug.
LOL on the idea of using a buff group to dive bomb. Novel, yes, realistic, no. Will I do it, absolutely not. Like a previous post, Darwins therories say that this will go away eventually.
Once people get used to the new system, and have some success bombing, people will say... "it is possible to kill a hangar and the new buff system isn't porked. I just needed a little PRACTICE"
Practice being a key word.
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Originally posted by Oedipus
Yes. Now if you want to capture a base or wreck another group of players who are enjoying themselve flying out of one it will take more than one or two skill-less dorks to do it. Now you need to team up and plan.
Excuse me, Oed, but I don't think flying bombing raids is intended to "ruin" the fun of another group of players. Level bombing is just as much an aspect of AH as Dogfighting. If I'm not flying a bomber mission, I'm not having fun. I'm not out to "Wreck" anyone's party, but if knocking a base out of commission will help my country, I do and will continue to bomb airbases, taking the time to make multiple bomb runs, until the field is leveled.
That's my style, and my idea of fun.
And as far as the "Skill-less Dorks" comment, I assume you are referring to the pre-1.10 Bomber missions.
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Personally I LOVE the new bomber system. Up until 1.10 I rarely flew bombers, maybe 1 sortie a tour. Now there is a challenge to it. Calibrating the site and making a good drop gives a feeling of satisfaction. Before it was boring!!!! Fly to 30k and pin point drop a couple of eggs at a time....YAWN. The only thing that would make it better would be the inclusion of the Liberator!!!
Avid
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Originally posted by Turbot
Yesterday started seeing alot of Tri-bomber units coming in and more or less dive bombing the whole formation. At one point in NDISLES last night was a whole squad of em doing it with goons in trail (of course with the surviving bomber formations circling and strafing.).
Is this what heavy bomber gameplay is de-evolving to in the MA now? This can not be good.
I think a big part of the problem right now is that we've got a target environment that is geared towards the precision, laser guided munitions that were available pre-1.10. Accordingly you see relatively few targets spread over a given area, and laid out with the previous ruleset in mind, rather than the present.
For this new area bombing to be fun, and effective, the first thing that needs to change is the targets themselves. The bomb sights don't need to change...they finally got that right, or close to it. Its the targets that are the problem.
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Pre 1.10 level hvy bombing was not realistic. Laser guided pinpoint bombing with hvy buffs was not a practice in WWII. I like the new model. Drop a bunch of iron in the general direction of the target and see impacts that look like something out of a WWII newsreel.
6 or 10 pilots in B17's can close a field with a lot of work. However, if one looks to the softer strat targets, then 3 pilots can do a lot a damage. A single formation strike on a strat city can reduce it by 20% or more, depending on the variables.
The SkyKnights are now focusing on 25k missions as used by the Mighty 8th, to strike at the infrastructure. Now if we could get some fighter escorts....
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Originally posted by Vortex
I think a big part of the problem right now is that we've got a target environment that is geared towards the precision, laser guided munitions that were available pre-1.10. Accordingly you see relatively few targets spread over a given area, and laid out with the previous ruleset in mind, rather than the present.
For this new area bombing to be fun, and effective, the first thing that needs to change is the targets themselves. The bomb sights don't need to change...they finally got that right, or close to it. Its the targets that are the problem.
I think you have made a very good observation.
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I was not glossing over or distorting your message. What you wrote was convoluted. We both know messages on the board can be can be made confusing because of the context.
This is why I asked for clarification as to your meaning.
Now I understand your position quite clearly.
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I have always (since beta) considered flying bombers a skill less exercise in ruining other peoples fun. After reading some of the whines about the new system. Its obvious that it now takes some effort to be successful in them. (S) to the real bomber pilots.
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suicide bombing has allways been a large part of the skilless and talentless set. It is also an integral part of the so called "strat". The attention starved would much rather suicide bomb than learn a skill or have to fight. It has allways been the same.....
If one guy can't ruin the fun of dozens by doing something that requires no decernable talent.... he screams bloody murder that we are ignoring him.
any gameplay that doesn't allow you to ignore the talentless is poor gameplay.
lazs
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Some Skill and a helluva lot of luck.
One of the earlier posts hit is right on the head.
These targets are not designed for dispersal bombing. But I guess it all works out, using the formation option.
Think about it. A B-26 (My ride of choice) can haul 4000 lbs. Pre-1.10, that was enough for 1 FH and 1000lbs left over for the town. Now, a flight of 3 26's carrying 12,000 lbs has enough ordinance to knock out all the FH's at a medium base. So to keep it fair, you have bomb dispersion. Otherwise, a single pilot could knock a medium field out of commission, which is highly unrealisitc.
The most damage I've ever done since 1.10 was in a 3 ship 26 formation, killing 2 FH's in a small field.
Like Oed said, it is, and should be required for a concerted effort among multiple bomber pilots, to knock out a field, and capture it.
I said it before, and I'll say it again. This new bomber system is great! It really thinned the ranks and when the dust clears, only the most dedicated Bomber pilots will be left conducting raids. I'm all for specializing in one area, though I will dabble with fighters, etc, when I don't have time for a full bomber sortie.
The suicide dive bombing of a heavy, in my opinion, is just Arcade game dweebery. Unfortunately, I think it will continue for quite some time.
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Keep crying Laz it makes me chuckle
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The problem is not the new bombsights. The problem is the fact, yes fact, that three guys, each taking a Bf110G-2, F4U-1C, Mosquito VI, P-38L or P-47D-30, will do more damage to any target in the game than three guys taking three Lancs each, loaded with 14k per Lanc can do. And they'll do it faster.
That is the problem.
The solution is not to change the bombsight, its to change the targets and the effect that hitting stategic targets have. Make the startegic targets worth hitting and worth defending. As it is right now, I doubt anybody on either side could tell if a stategic target has been hit based on observations of gameplay.
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One Image is better than 1000 words (or how is that saying?)
3x B26, 250lbs bombs, full salvo, delay 0.3, drop alt 15k, town alt 0k, speed constant, approach made taking the wind direction in account
BDA shot taken after turn on the way home