Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Hortlund on July 19, 2002, 05:26:10 AM
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Subject: Think About This One
In light of the many perversions and jokes that we send along to
One another for a laugh, this one is just a little different:
The joke today is not intended to be funny; it's intended to get you thinking.
Billy Graham's daughter, Anne Graham, was interviewed on the Early Show regarding the attacks on September 11, and Jane Clayson asked her "How could God have let something like this happen?"
Anne gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said, "I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government, and to get out of our lives. And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand that He leave us alone?"
In light of recent events -- terrorists' attacks, school shootings,
etc., I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare complained that she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK. (She was murdered and her body was recently found.)
Then someone said that you'd better not read the Bible in school. (The Bible says you shall not kill, you shall not steal, and you should love your neighbor as yourself.) And we said OK.
Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said that we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem. (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said that an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said OK.
Then someone said that teachers and principals had better not discipline our children when they misbehave. The school administrators said that no faculty member in a school should touch a student when they misbehave because they didn't want any bad publicity, and they surely didn't want to be sued. (There's a difference between disciplining, and touching, beating,
smacking, humiliating, kicking, etc.). But we said OK.
Then someone said, let's let our daughters have abortions if they
want, and they won't even have to tell their parents. And we said OK.
Then some school board member said, since boys will be boys and they're going to do it anyway, let's give our sons all the condoms they want so they can have all the fun they want, and we won't have to tell their parents that they got them at school. And we said OK.
Then some of our top elected officials said that it doesn't matter
what we do in private as long as we do our jobs. Agreeing with them, we said it doesn't matter to us what anyone, including the President, does in private as long as we have a job and the economy is good.
Then someone said let's print magazines with pictures of nude women and call it wholesome, down-to-earth appreciation for the beauty of the female body. And we said OK. And then someone else took that appreciation a step further and published pictures of nude children and then further again by making them available on the Internet. And we said OK, they're entitled to free speech.
Then the entertainment industry said, let's make TV shows and movies that promote profanity, violence, and illicit sex. Let's record music that encourages rape, drugs, murder, suicide, and satanic themes. And we said that it's just entertainment, it has no adverse effect, nobody takes it seriously anyway, so go right ahead.
Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no consciences, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and even themselves.
Probably, if we thought about it long and hard enough, we could figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with "We reap what we sow."
It's funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell.
It's funny how we always believe what the newspapers say, but always question what the Bible says, or dismiss it as not being pertinent in this modern, space age world.
It's funny how you can send jokes through e-mail and they spread like wildfire, but when you start sending messages regarding God, people think twice about sharing, and delete them before anyone sees them.
It's funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and the workplace and that's supposed to be all right with us.
Are you laughing?
It's funny how, when you forward this message, you will probably not send it to very many people on your address list because you're not sure just what they believe, or what they would think of you for sending it. It's funny how we can be more worried about what other people think of us than what God thinks of us.
Pass it on if you think it has any merit. If not, then just discard it. No one will know that you did. But if you discard this thought process, please don't sit back and complain about what bad shape the world is in!
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I think Jerry Fallwell hit the nail on the head when he blamed the 9/11 attacks on the Jews/Homosexuals/Feminists..etc.
"Eat that pork,eat that ham.
Laugh till you choke on Billy Graham."
>>>Frank Zappa..."The Meek Shall Inherit Nothing"
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Originally posted by SirLoin
Frank Zappa..."The Meek Shall Inherit Nothing"
"The Meek...he said Blessed are the Meek...awww..I'm glad they are getting something..they have a 'ell of a time"
Jewish lady in the crowd at the Sermon on the Mount - Life of Brian.
:D
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You know I come across this stuff all the time and I disagree with it completely. My problem is in expressing exactly why. Lets distill this issue down to the basics. What is God? Whether you want to accept it or not “God” is a word, concept, idea, mental image, etc. Admit it, it’s not really GOD is it? God being a concept is a projection of the human psyche and it changes as the individual and society changes. If God is taken to be “All That Is”, then It certainly can’t be contained in a concept.
All the rape, murder, drugs, obscenity, etc. is due to the fact that we live in a repressive society not an open one. What Christians consider to be our “darker” side has to have expression. We have to learn how to channel this energy and not stifle it. It’s going to come out one way or another regardless.
Contradictions will always expose the flaws in any philosophical/religious system and Christianity has plenty. One example is how Christians speak of love and understanding then turn around and beat their children teaching them that physical violence is acceptable. This kind of upbringing has led to the society we have today. I rest my case.
In the end, if we can’t learn to love everybody than at least we can learn to stay out of their business.
That concludes today’s sermon.
:)
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"Be Still & Know God"
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Dinosaurs never existed.
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Contradictions will always expose the flaws in any philosophical/religious system and Christianity has plenty. One example is how Christians speak of love and understanding then turn around and beat their children teaching them that physical violence is acceptable.
That, sir, is an outrageous lie. I don't often come out so harsh, but you couldn't be more wrong.
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Back in the days when we feared and invited (I.E: forced) God into our homes, we didnt have school shootings and terrorist attacks.
But we had the Crusades, inquisition, conquistadors, burning at the stake, the plague, widespread slavery, and many other quirks.
Now that we have gained independence from God, I think we are doing much better, thank you very much. Still not utopia, but I rather be here now than back then with the smiting sword of the believers ever vigilant.
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Wow, thanks for placing the blame squarely on the shoulders of all non-rightthinking Americans. I was wondering who to be pissed off at. And all this time I thought it was Al Quaida. I appreciate you clearing that up Stevie!
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: <----not enough rolleyes in the world for this one.
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Originally posted by Animal
Back in the days when we feared and invited (I.E: forced) God into our homes, we didnt have school shootings and terrorist attacks.
But we had the Crusades, inquisition, conquistadors, burning at the stake, the plague, widespread slavery, and many other quirks.
So in the 1890s you had the Crusades, Inquisition, Conquistadors, burning at the stake, the plague, widespread slavery?
Or in the 1950s?
If you think about it, everything went downhill from the 60s and the "sexual liberation". Damn hippies and their drugs destroyed old values. After that its just getting worse and worse.
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Originally posted by Kieran
That, sir, is an outrageous lie. I don't often come out so harsh, but you couldn't be more wrong.
Kieren, he's stero-typing because of the recent article of that Texas church that beat the kid.
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Originally posted by Animal
Back in the days when we feared and invited (I.E: forced) God into our homes, we didnt have school shootings and terrorist attacks.
But we had the Crusades, inquisition, conquistadors, burning at the stake, the plague, widespread slavery, and many other quirks.
Now that we have gained independence from God, I think we are doing much better, thank you very much. Still not utopia, but I rather be here now than back then with the smiting sword of the believers ever vigilant.
Well said Sir.
I have no probelm with religion...I have a problem with organised religion.
I think, for example, that it is ironic that South Americans are such staunch Roman Catholics....the reason they are is that in the "Good Ole Days" the Spanish held a sword to their throats and said "YOU WILL BE CATHOLIC".
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Originally posted by Hortlund
So in the 1890s you had the Crusades, Inquisition, Conquistadors, burning at the stake, the plague, widespread slavery?
Or in the 1950s?
If you think about it, everything went downhill from the 60s and the "sexual liberation". Damn hippies and their drugs destroyed old values. After that its just getting worse and worse.
First who said 1890's?
So the 50's were better than today? Are you sure Hortlund? You've been watching too many movies bud.
Womens rights - Nonexistent
Racial Equality - Read your history books
McCarthyism - HUAC is not just the sound a gavel makes.
and much much more. Don't come into the paint with that weak stuff, I'll swat it into the cheap seats!
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Wow, thanks for placing the blame squarely on the shoulders of all non-rightthinking Americans. I was wondering who to be pissed off at. And all this time I thought it was Al Quaida. I appreciate you clearing that up Stevie!
What blame midnight?
The post is not about blame, it is about reflection. If people like you want to remove God from their ordinary lifes for various reasons (some because they want to separate church and state, some because they simply dont believe in God, some because it makes stuff easier for them), you might want to realize that that might have implications on how people behave.
Simply put, if you want to remove Christian values from your life, from school, from the government you might instead get non-Christian values.
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Originally posted by Curval
Well said Sir.
I have no probelm with religion...I have a problem with organised religion.
I think, for example, that it is ironic that South Americans are such staunch Roman Catholics....the reason they are is that in the "Good Ole Days" the Spanish held a sword to their throats and said "YOU WILL BE CATHOLIC".
I don't have a problem with religion, or even organized religion (I think of Lake Tapps Cristian church where both my sons attended pre-school) , but I DO have a problem with "Corporate Organized Religion" which gives all religions a bad name, be it Jerry Farewell, the "69" club or any of the other rip off artists.
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How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand that He leave us alone?"
So if we didn't ask him to "leave us alone" we would have been ok? Sounds like the blame game to me.
Did YOU read your post?
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Originally posted by midnight Target
First who said 1890's?
So the 50's were better than today? Are you sure Hortlund? You've been watching too many movies bud.
Womens rights - Nonexistent
Racial Equality - Read your history books
McCarthyism - HUAC is not just the sound a gavel makes.
and much much more. Don't come into the paint with that weak stuff, I'll swat it into the cheap seats!
I said 1890s as an example of a period in time when man feared and invited God into their hearts. As well as the 1950s.
And I guess it all depends on what you value most. And how much faith you have in mankind. In the 1950s you had some things that we would never accept today. But you also had a completely different attitude towards authority, your fellow man, your family, your life.
Do you *really* think that it would be impossible to have womens rights and racial equality without the hippies and their drugs and screw-with-whomever-however-whenever- philosophy?
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So in the 1890s you had the Crusades, Inquisition, Conquistadors, burning at the stake, the plague, widespread slavery?
Or in the 1950s?
If you think about it, everything went downhill from the 60s and the "sexual liberation". Damn hippies and their drugs destroyed old values. After that its just getting worse and worse.
So you are saying that the 1890 - 1950 period was a blissful time of peace and prosperity?
Hmmm... I seem to recall the biggest wars in history happened in that time lapse.
People who had the same skin color as I do, were abused and lynched and were not considered human. And guess what, it was not a rare occurence that was looked at in awe on television. It was the norm.
Women were treated like they were inferior to men. Nothing was expected out of them other than household chores and sexual satisfaction.
Cold war paranoia.
........no thanks, I much rather live in this godless hippie time without "old values" (oxymoron).
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Originally posted by midnight Target
So if we didn't ask him to "leave us alone" we would have been ok? Sounds like the blame game to me.
I do not have the answer to that question. No one has. But it is not about blame midnight. Why are you getting so defensive?
Search in your heart, and you might find the answer. I know what I believe is the answer to that question. But then again, I believe in the "old" values. (after all that's what makes me a conservative)
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Originally posted by Hortlund
But you also had a completely different attitude towards authority, your fellow man, your family, your life.
Dude, do you seriously believe 1890 - 1950's family life was like in those lovable sitcoms? Wake up man.
Why do you think there was this huge cultural rebellion in the 1960's? because it sucked. People were so uptight on their beliefs and feelings for fear of a good smiting (wich came in the way of lynchings, and beatings with the belt by good ol' god & state fearing dad) and you had to be really careful how people looked at you. It was very important that you fit to a certain mold.
And thankfully (for us not you) now we have true freedom, to the dismay of the likes of you :)
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In the 1950s you had some things that we would never accept today. But you also had a completely different attitude towards authority, your fellow man, your family, your life.
In the 1950's
Authority - Was always right.
Changed by the Army McCarthy Hearings, The Democratic Convention of 1968, and Watergate. (not by religion or lack thereof)
Fellow Man - Was treated with kindness, as long as he looked like me.
Changed by people with the guts to stand up and take a beating so others that followed may have a chance. Some were religious leaders, but religion didn't change things here either.
Family - More "nuclear" families true. But if you were a single woman you were a spinster. A single man was OK. God forbid if you should be openly gay though. Probably an open invitation for at least a beating if not worse.
Again - changed by a lack of religion? Maybe so in this case, as religious values dictated that people who are different should be treated with scorn.
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What bothers me about this is its a attack on separation of church and state.
The is not a Christian country and the government should never have had anything religious in it at all.
Do you really want religious wackos running your country?
Yeah I know if your Christian that's fine, but what about all those other "Bad" religions guess they don't count...
well they do, and that's why the government is to stand for the people not GOD. So this message sucks.
Morals and religion are not tied together.
I know not to take another human life because its wrong, I do not need god in my life to know that.
Teach morals not myths.
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Originally posted by Animal
So you are saying that the 1890 - 1950 period was a blissful time of peace and prosperity?
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No, Im not, I'm saying that people invited God into their hearts, more than they do now in that period of time.
Hmmm... I seem to recall the biggest wars in history happened in that time lapse.
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Yes?
People who had the same skin color as I do, were abused and lynched and were not considered human. And guess what, it was not a rare occurence that was looked at in awe on television. It was the norm.
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Not in Europe. You are seeing the world through american eyes.
Women were treated like they were inferior to men. Nothing was expected out of them other than household chores and sexual satisfaction.
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That was not the norm, that was individual. Some men have always been opressive amazinhunks, they are still around today, I get to meet them alot through my work.
........no thanks, I much rather live in this godless hippie time without "old values" (oxymoron).
Then I suppose you are perfectly content with your current situation, and the current state of affairs.
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Steve...hippies were all about peace and love. Fine, they did some drugs, but I cannot accept they they are responsible for all of todays societal evils.
Guys like Billy Graham and Jerry Faldwell are hypocritical phonies and I would be very careful when arguing their particular cases. Their Christian values end as soon as the cheques clear in their bank accounts.
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Hortlund, public school and government are not there to instill Christian (or whatever religion you choose) values. That is what parents, private schools, and places of worship are for. Public school is to teach kids math, reading, science, social studies (oh, btw, ethics and civics are a part of this! and get this, you can teach someone how to treat other people nicely without bringing your God into it), music, physical education and a few other things.
Now I'd like everyone who thinks we're trying to drive religion out of public schools to pay very close attention to this... I do NOT care if little Johnny or Susie prays to whatever deity(ies) they want to in school. I do care when Principal Smith or Teacher X leads the children in a prayer to the deity of the school's (or individual teacher's) choice. THAT is what we are trying to remove from school. "Under God" falls under that too, it's government endorsement of the Christian faith (Eisenhower was a very strong Christian man, nothing wrong with that other than the fact he injected his beliefs into the Pledge of Allegience). Why am I making this distinction? Because a lot of pro-God types are thinking we are anti-religion. We (at least me) are NOT. First amendment provides for freedom of religion, YET for separation of church and state. Meaning you can practice religion as you want, yet the gov't (including a public school) should not be endorsing religion. I'm busy here at work getting school policies online. One of them caught my attention and it's why I came here to post this.
A moment of silence, not to exceed two (2) minutes, may be provided for students at the beginning of each school day.
That's fine, in my opinion. A child may pray, worship or whatever in those two minutes. As to why only 2 minutes? We pay taxes to teach children, not for them to pray or reflect on other things (such as that cute girl's butt in front of you...) ;)
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Not in Europe. You are seeing the world through american eyes.
Oh sorry then. Though we seem to have forgotten the NAZI.
Those people also had values, right?
Then I suppose you are perfectly content with your current situation, and the current state of affairs.
Wouldnt trade it for the way it was back then.
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Originally posted by Animal
Dude, do you seriously believe 1890 - 1950's family life was like in those lovable sitcoms? Wake up man.
Why do you think there was this huge cultural rebellion in the 1960's? because it sucked. People were so uptight on their beliefs and feelings for fear of a good smiting (wich came in the way of lynchings, and beatings with the belt by good ol' god & state fearing dad) and you had to be really careful how people looked at you. It was very important that you fit to a certain mold.
And thankfully (for us not you) now we have true freedom, to the dismay of the likes of you :)
Just out of curiosity..when you insult someone, why do you attach a smiley at the end of that sentence?
If I would say:
diddly you, you dumb lowlife, where do you think you get the right to judge me?
or if I said
diddly you, you dumb lowlife, where do you think you get the right to judge me? :)
Does that make a difference to you?
And what would you know about family life in the 1890? That is only your predjudices talking.
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The smilie at the end of that particular sentence was a sign of joy for the current situation, in wich I get to say whatever I want without fear of the likes of you knocking my door.
All you get to do now is say diddly many times.
And you have it backwards if you think I'm the one being judgemental (quite ironic coming from a "judge")
And what the diddly would you know about family life in the 1890? That is only your predjudices talking.
I read about it, from the experience of my ancestors. They had a hell of a hard time breaking free from the likes of you. Thankfully they succeeded, some as soldiers during the second world war, and others standing tall during the civils right movement. And I am here now able to put smilies at the ends of my sentences, much to your dismay :)
Back then prejudices didnt talk. They beat the crap out of you and killed you. And thats only in America.
In Europe, it was an oven.
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It amazes me that we continue to have a debate about prayer in school in the USA.
The only thing that the present rule prohibits is some teacher telling my kid how to pray. Those who administer it have screwed it up repeatedly. Churches / Synagogs / Temples / Mosques... these are where we learn worship... let the schools teach algebra.
And there is a lot of praying going on when algebra tests are given.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
It amazes me that we continue to have a debate about prayer in school in the USA.
The only thing that the present rule prohibits is some teacher telling my kid how to pray. Those who administer it have screwed it up repeatedly. Churches / Synagogs / Temples / Mosques... these are where we learn worship... let the schools teach algebra.
And there is a lot of praying going on when algebra tests are given.
Agreed
but to change some motto, pledge, school song - whatever - just because it has had the word "God" in it for how many number of years is ludicrous. Just another attempt by a few in this generation to eliminate ANY reference to a "God" or "Divine" for the future generations. It's not about us today, it is about our grandchildren's children.
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Originally posted by Eagler
Agreed
but to change some motto, pledge, school song - whatever - just because it has had the word "God" in it for how many number of years is ludicrous. Just another attempt by a few in this generation to eliminate ANY reference to a "God" or "Divine" for the future generations. It's not about us today, it is about our grandchildren's children.
Kinda missing the point Eagler. The length of time a wrong has been committed doesn't make it right. By that logic we should not allow Blacks to vote, hell it worked for 150 years!!! (no I'm not calling you a racist)
And we are not trying to remove God from our lives, just from our Government.
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Originally posted by blur
All the rape, murder, drugs, obscenity, etc. is due to the fact that we live in a repressive society not an open one. What Christians consider to be our “darker” side has to have expression. We have to learn how to channel this energy and not stifle it. It’s going to come out one way or another regardless.
:)
LOL...you're right...I think all Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dahmer needed was a government funded basket weaving class and all would have been right with the world!
Are you kidding me?
That statement is naive at best.
Some folks are just evil and bad, and no amount of "channeling" is going to make them Mary Poppins.
I don't think being Christian or not Christian or believing in God or not has much to do with it. It has more to do with what makes certain folks tick.
Cobra
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http://www.episcopalchurch.org/ens/99-2288.html
Maybe donations were down....
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Anne gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said, "I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government, and to get out of our lives. And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out.
Sweet! You just have to tell him what to do?? I didn't know it was that easy!
Hey God! Be a gentleman and spot me a million bucks.
Strange, that didn't work. What exactly are the rules on telling God what to do? How many people have to tell him, how many times and for how long?
Maybe we should ask Anne, she sounds like an absolute master of theology. Oh wait...no she doens't, she sounds like an idiot.
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Clarification on the article.
http://www.snopes.com/rumors/wheregod.htm
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Originally posted by Eagler
"Be Still & Know God"
These are the only wise words in this entire thread.
...added bonus is that this same sentiment echoes in religions other than christianity.
EDIT: Forgot to add... Nostalgia is a terrible thing and truth CAN be relative. :D
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instead of debating back and forth wheter there's a God or not, and wheter it's His fault, we should look at ourselves.
I think if you look deeper than the religion issue in the original message you'll see some common truth..
it's how we as a socieity rear our children, morally or not, that affects the end product of our society.
many of the things listed are 'bullet points' in Stalin's plan to overthrow the US. simply undermine the societies morals and the battle is done.
you don't need to blame it on religion or lack therof..
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Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said that we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem. (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said that an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said OK.
Contrary to popular rumor, Dr. Spock's son did not commit suicide. His grandson Peter did commit suicide in 1983...
I wonder if Anne Graham even said those things. Then again, why let the facts get in the way of a good rant? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: <---- still not enough
Thrawn beat me to it. Read the transcript of the interview. You would have done better to post that.
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Please don't confuse being conservative with being a religious zealot.
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Originally posted by majic
Please don't confuse being conservative with being a religious zealot.
As long as you don't confuse an atheist with someone lacking morals.
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Originally posted by majic
Please don't confuse being conservative with being a religious zealot.
Yes, what majic said.
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...something smells fishy in this thread...
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no problem Sandman :)
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If I am reading many of you correctly, you are suggesting diminishing the role of religion in society has made this country a better place for all...
...guess better is a relative term...
...oh oh, here comes the suggestion I am a bigot and a chauvenist...
...and that I beat my kids because God told me to...
...for a group of tolerant free thinkers, you aren't very tolerant...
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Originally posted by Kieran
If I am reading many of you correctly, you are suggesting diminishing the role of religion in society has made this country a better place for all...
...guess better is a relative term...
...oh oh, here comes the suggestion I am a bigot and a chauvenist...
...and that I beat my kids because God told me to...
...for a group of tolerant free thinkers, you aren't very tolerant...
Not what I'm suggesting at all you bigoted chauvenist ;)
I take exception to the contentions that:
1. Things were better then - They weren't
2. Thing are worse now - They aren't
3. The reason is lack of religion - See 1 and 2
This country is a better place for more Americans than it was 50 years ago, and the diminished role of religion in our schools has had nothing to do with it one way or the other. It is just the right thing to do.
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I dont mind religious people as long as they stick to their values.
These are nice times, if you wanna believe in something, fine by you, you are blessed.
But if I dont want to, you dont have to feel like i'm trying to convince you that your beliefs are fake. Its usually the other way around.
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"Billy Graham's daughter, Anne Graham, was interviewed on the Early Show regarding the attacks on September 11, and Jane Clayson asked her "How could God have let something like this happen?"
"
Only zealots asked how god could let that happen.
Of coarse the zealot answer is that it happend because the zealots countrymen are not devout enough...
no..
there is no blame there Hortland.
Someone should have told little ms graham that this happend because some people take thier religion to seriosly. And live in countries that dont firmly seperate church and state.
That is the true answer.
I like the implication that the best thing to do about it is to adopt the fanatical religios attitude of our enemies
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Originally posted by Pongo
"Billy Graham's daughter, Anne Graham, was interviewed on the Early Show regarding the attacks on September 11, and Jane Clayson asked her "How could God have let something like this happen?"
"
Only zealots asked how god could let that happen.
Of coarse the zealot answer is that it happend because the zealots countrymen are not devout enough...
no..
there is no blame there Hortland.
Someone should have told little ms graham that this happend because some people take thier religion to seriosly. And live in countries that dont firmly seperate church and state.
That is the true answer.
I like the implication that the best thing to do about it is to adopt the fanatical religios attitude of our enemies
I think you are missing the point. This is not about 9-11. Cant you see that? This is about us as a society turning our backs on our Christian values, the very glue that holds our society together in the first place, and what that leads to.
Pongo, imagine a country where everyone follows the ten commandments. Good or bad? (The AMAZING part is that lots of liberal types will jump on that notion with the same ferocity as if I had suggested the reinstatement of slavery. )
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I am not on about religion in schools, only the trend in making religion offensive to society. And yes, a few in this thread have suggested religion is the root of evil in our society.
I work in a high school now (for the past two years). When I went to the same high school almost 25 years ago, we didn't need security cameras. It was completely unheard of for students to bring and use weapons. We didn't have to worry about kids wearing gang colors. When fights occured, teachers didn't have to worry about getting stabbed or shot when breaking them up...
...this is better? Just sayin', I am not of the same opinion. I have had too many altercations at my home and place of work to buy that line. Things are most certainly NOT better from my perspective.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Pongo, imagine a country where everyone follows the ten commandments. Good or bad?
Imagine a country where everyone would have a choice to make their own decision which imaginary figure to believe in. What a concept !!!!
Show me a country on this planet, where 10% of it's "faithful" population lives truely by the teachings of their chosen religion. Come on.
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Kieran, I'm pretty darn sure you know the logical flaws in your last post, which makes me wonder why you posted it.
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Well, the pattern in this thread seems to be to take a particular situation and paint it as the norm. My norm isn't better than the norm I enjoyed 10 years ago, or the one I enjoyed 25 years ago.
Did religion in school change in that time? Nope. But, the decline in religion in our society has been steady in the last 25 years. The argument for one side is this parallels an improvement for all; I am stating that isn't true from my perspective.
In reality both sides have arguments that are just as flawed. I would challenge anyone who says society is just hunky-dory now, or anyone that suggests there has been no decline in moral standards.
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BRIAN: I'm not the Messiah!
ARTHUR: I say You are, Lord, and I should know. I've followed a few.
FOLLOWERS: Hail Messiah!
BRIAN: I'm not the Messiah! Will you please listen? I am not the Messiah, do you understand?! Honestly!
GIRL: Only the true Messiah denies His divinity.
BRIAN: What?! Well, what sort of chance does that give me? All right! I am the Messiah!
FOLLOWERS: He is! He is the Messiah!
BRIAN: Now, diddly off!
ARTHUR: How shall we diddly off, O Lord?
Tronsky
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Did religion in school change in that time? Nope. But, the decline in religion in our society has been steady in the last 25 years. The argument for one side is this parallels an improvement for all; I am stating that isn't true from my perspective. Kieran
Your perspective seems to be a bit off what's going on in American society. Statistically, we are a more religious society today than were were through most of the century. In fact, religious affiliation/identification has been on a steady increase since the 1920s, with a dip from the early 1960s to mid 1970s. We actually reached a peak in 1998 but membership is still holding pretty solid at about 70% compared to a mere 41% in 1906. But, if you really need to feel that religion is under attack, and on the decline, go ahead.
The official count of denominations increased from 186 in 1906 to 256 in 1936, when the Census Bureau stopped counting them. Although the number of denominations at the end of the century is not known, it included about eighty denominations with more than 60,000 members each. Seventy percent of the U.S. population belonged to a religious organization in 1998, up from 41 percent in the early years of the century.
At the end of the century, eight of every ten Americans were Christian, one adhered to another religion, and one had no religious preference. The nonChristians included Jews, Buddhists, and a rapidly growing number of Muslims.
The separation of church and state became more contentious in some respects after 1960, as federal and state courts were called upon to adjudicate a wide range of issues related to religion, from the use of peyote by American Indian cults to the display of Christmas decorations on government property. The 1980s and 1990s saw the active involvement of religious groups in political campaigns, along with the presidential candidacies of two Protestant ministers, Jesse Jackson and Pat Robertson.
http://www.pbs.org/fmc/book/6religion1.htm
Charon
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Originally posted by fd ski
Imagine a country where everyone would have a choice to make their own decision which imaginary figure to believe in. What a concept !!!!
Show me a country on this planet, where 10% of it's "faithful" population lives truely by the teachings of their chosen religion. Come on.
Well, I'd say there are alot of countries where everyone gets to choose what to believe in. The US would be a good example of such a country.
As for your second question, the answer is very easy: There is none.
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The original post's intention is not about blame, it is about reflection.
Me, being the stubborn bellybutton that I can be, managed to somehow get caught in the question whether the 1890:s or 1950:s were better than today. Which is completely irrelevant really, because no one wants to go back to 1950 or 1890.
Some people have brought up lots of various examples why the 1890-1950 period in time was bad. Those examples are amongst others, womens rights, McCarthy, racism, abusive fathers, world wars, nazis etc etc.
But all this is an irrelevant sidetrack, because the post really isnt about comparing periods in time, and besides, you cant blame any of those things on Christianity.
Midnight gives us his way of thinking when he says:
1. Things were better then - They weren't
2. Thing are worse now - They aren't
3. The reason is lack of religion - See 1 and 2
I think many things are much worse now. And I think many things were better then. But on the other hand, many things were worse then, and many things are better now. The things that are better now are mostly materialistic things. We have better toys, better hospitals, better medications, better ...stuff. But the things that are worse now are more in people's attitudes and behavior.
This world is a cold, cold place now. People are obsessed with their own economy, their own pleasures, themselves. They abuse others, they abuse the nature, they have no honor, no morals, somehow they have lost focus.
If you think that we are currently living in the best of worlds, then I suppose you should just sit back and enjoy yourself.
Personally I dont like the situation as it is now. But I am talking about the coldness in peoples hearts. As an example of this...We have kids killing eachother and raping eachother....kids. A couple of months ago we had a case where three 13-yr olds, and one 16-yrold had raped a 13-yrold girl. I mean wtf is that? Kids going to school killing as many as they can see before they put a bullet in the head is becoming more and more common... And this is just one example. There are counless of others.
If you dont think something is screwed with modern society, then I guess we see things completely differently.
The first step when dealing with any problem is always
1) acknowledge that there is a problem.
The post is about that. To get you to think.
Some people (like Thrawn and Animal) missed that point with about a mile.
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PUUUNT
(Yeah, its good to be back)
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The so-called Christian nations are the most enlightened and progressive...but in spite of their religion, not because of it. The Church has opposed every innovation and discovery from the day of Galileo down to our own time, when the use of anesthetic in childbirth was regarded as a sin because it avoided the biblical curse pronounced against Eve. And every step in astronomy and geology ever taken has been opposed by bigotry and superstition. The Greeks surpassed us in artistic culture and in architecture five hundred years before Christian religion was born. - Mark Twain
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I would like to see vouchers so that everyone can send their kid to the school that best represents what they believe in. I would say that the school has to meet some kind of scholastic minimums but then we would have to close down all the public schools.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
I would like to see vouchers so that everyone can send their kid to the school that best represents what they believe in. I would say that the school has to meet some kind of scholastic minimums but then we would have to close down all the public schools.
lazs
So your kids would attend "The Lazs School of Firearms"? ;)
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Noo... but... if the private school that I sent my kids to wanted to teach proper and safe handling of firearms I would not object in the least.
you, on the other hand, could send your kids to a school that taught them to fear and loath firearms and make sure that they never knew anything about the safe handling of same.
lazs
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I would send my kids to Steves school where the teachers are all gorgeous babes aged 25-35.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Billy Graham's daughter, Anne Graham, was interviewed on the Early Show regarding the attacks on September 11, and Jane Clayson asked her "How could God have let something like this happen?"
Anne gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said, "I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government, and to get out of our lives. And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand that He leave us alone?"
I remember that interview, and I remember my basic response then (and now) was "but God didn't _LET_ anything happen. It happened because a bunch of crazy fools had anger in their heart. It wasn't up to any deity to prevent it - it was up to the people at the airport, the people on the planes, and the everyone else who should've been more vigilant."
I deleted the rest of the original quote because I get enough "become a real Christian now!" emails as it is.
By the way - well said Pongo! You got it right on the head.
And Tronsky - I loved "Life of Brian". We shall worship The Shoe!
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Will God ever deliver us from this thread?
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A LOT of evil, evil things have been done in the name of religion.
None have been done in the name of nothing.
Now THAT is philosophy!
-SW
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
A LOT of evil, evil things have been done in the name of religion.
None have been done in the name of nothing.
Now THAT is philosophy!
-SW
Imaginary characters in a fictional book demand of me to kill you for this statement.
F.