Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: beet1e on July 19, 2002, 08:09:50 AM
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OK, so the old maps are back. I am not surprised because although there are things I liked about the pizza map, it looked arcadish and I couldn’t see it lasting.
Although I have no feeling one way or another about the reintroduction of the old maps, I am quite appalled at the manner in which this has come about. Put quite simply, you have caved in under pressure from the furball whiners, the gangbang-vulch society, and the GtG Players. We saw many, many whines from these people, but do you really think this was a representative sample of the total AH subscribership? I think not, and I do know that a great many people welcomed the opportunity to see bases change hands without a ridiculous numerical supremacy smashdown.
So now we’re back to furballing. And gangbangs. And vulchfests. :rolleyes: Last night, I was trying to help Bishops capture A1 from A4. When I realised that several guys were interested in the field capture (and not just the furball), I landed the 190A5 and switched to a loaded up Thunderbolt D30. The Knights were sandwiched between the bishops and the rooks, who owned every other base on Gangbang Island. I had high hopes that some of my fighter guys would cover me as I approached A1-town, but what’s this I see? A rook N1K – at 25K! Yeah, yeah, yeah – here we go again. Dump all ord and run for it. The N1K dived on me, but a few barrel rolls saved me and I was able to extend – not before he had sprayed and prayed and blown off my left aileron and right gear.
HTC, don’t take us back to all this crap. Do something! You listened to the 10% of guys who are members of the FWC (Furball Whiner Club), and now it’s time to listen to the non-members – the other 90% of the AH subscribership. Turn off the Mission Editor, or turn off the bardar and flashing map. Give the strat guys a chance! We take enough risks by being low down in enemy territory, especially when the nearest enemy LA7/N1K/Spit spawn point might be only 5 minutes away, and especially as we might be carrying two tons of ord, and sufficient fuel to rtb. The defenders are holding all the cards in that situation, without the game handing them our heads on a plate.
Rude! – any chance?
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Ah FFS Alan WTF are you trying to do...this will never win you an award until you theatrically threaten to quit old bean! You then quit and come back a few days later muttering how you were right but will put up with your perceived problems only to do it all again next month.
P.S keep the mission editor ;)
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Want new maps there is a terrain editor, until we have more of a choice of large maps the smaller ones should be in rotation. Just imagine playing the pizza map for a year, *shudder*.
I am all for large maps but until we have choice the old ones should be in the rotation.
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geeze beetle.... you have no idea what HTC is doing. your post makes you sound like a whiney little socialist.
how do you know how many people liked the or disliked the pizza map? I bet everyone woulda got sick of one map only tho after a while.
You attacked A1??? the biggest furball on the map for hours on end? why not milkrun all the deserted fields? Couldn't get anyone to go with you or cover you???
You mean... if players have somethng fun to do they won't be forced to milkrun?
lazs
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Beet1e, did you even bother to read the explanation of why the old maps were put back into rotation? HTC's accumulated a ton of comments about the new map under the new release, and now they're rotating the old maps in so they can get comments about the old maps. They want to know what people think is good and bad about the old maps, so they have additional feedback to use when they
[list=a]
- redesign the 'pizza' map
- create additional large maps
When I realised that several guys were interested in the field capture...
So instead of making any attempt to make a coordinated attack on the field, you just took off in your jabo to hit the field, expecting that you'd be able to set up a coordinated attack on the fly, and then come here and whine when it doesn't happen.
...not before he had sprayed and prayed...
Another example of selective imputation? When your side does it, you're making your best effort to shoot down someone who is either at extreme range or maneuvering heavily; when their side does it, they're 'spraying and praying'.
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Not trying to flame or anything, but why should bases trade hands without a large numerical superiority? U.S. military doctrine calls for a 3:1 advantage for a successful attack. This advantage can be gained through things other than numbers (technology for example) but these are negated in the MA where everybody can fly everything.
In AH, a larger advantage is required because of the ability of the defender to re-up (read reinforce) instantly at the point of defense while the attacker must always travel some distance from his base. Realistic? No, but neither is being able to capture an airbase without running into a stiff defense. The problem, as I see it, is that the current system(s) cause one or the other.
I have no idea what the "realistic" solution should be, but that is where I would hope our energies are focused rather than arguing the merits of one unrealistic method over an equally unrealistic one.
HaMmeR
netAces - Info, Tactics, and More! (http://www.netaces.org)
=GHOSTS=....You Will Believe! (http://www.ghost-squadron.org)
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"but why should bases trade hands without a large numerical superiority?"
Because it's not fun?
I actually miss the pizza milk runners. I was having fun defending bases against a few attackers, especially the canyon V bases. The smaller maps tend to produce "large numerical superiority" attacks. I'll die a couple of times hunting their goon, then give up and go somewhere else, or log off.
My two cents......
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We didn't get rid of the "pizza" map. We just reinstituted map rotation as we always have. No one "caved in". See the Q & A section.
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No contest this week..:)
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There is same amount of milkrunning as always, the milkrunners just have concentrated alot more people on an objective. The outnumbered team has many fewer options.
In the larger map there were decidedly more 1:1 engagements. You were not forced to face 4:1 odds unless you wished to. Now it is more or less what you must do if you wish to play the game that day.
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...must learn to make maps... ...must learn to use the terrain editor...
either that or don't squeak :eek:
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After the way the last map makers were treated?
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:rolleyes:
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:rolleyes:
You tried a solo jabo run and got bounced by a higher enemy. Boo hoo.
It seems like you want the benefits of an organized mission without actually having to get organized.
Get in a squad and put up a decent mission package if you want to have protection for jabos. If you can't get people to help you like that then the problem is your social skills, not the map.
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Originally posted by beet1e
HTC, don’t take us back to all this crap. Do something! You listened to the 10% of guys who are members of the FWC (Furball Whiner Club), and now it’s time to listen to the non-members – the other 90% of the AH subscribership.
Oh please. That's one of the larger piles of festering feces that you've thrown out...and you've thrown out a lot of them lately.
Lookit, this isn't rocket science mate. Obviously you can't connect the dots, even when HTC provides a roadmap (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=59265) for you.
This isn't an "us" or "them" argument, no matter how hard you try to make it one. It is an issue of gameplay...and that includes EVERYONES gameplay.
Christ people can be painfully stupid sometimes
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I actually was between A1 & A4 for couple hours last night. Gotta say, it was a blast. I like the strat stuff, but also enjoy quick, furball action sometimes. Last night was a blast. If I would have been interested in Strat stuff, A1 & A4 would have been the last place I would have looked. Pick better strat targets next time.
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Yeah BG, agreed. The BK's were at 1 and 4 lastnight as well. Most fun I've had in 2 or 3 weeks.
Anyone that tried a strat deal on either base would have never made it...not that some didn't try, lol.
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Let me see if I understand this complaint ...
Small map = higher flying fighters
Larger map = lower flying fighters
That correct?
Why would that N1K not be at 25k on the pizza map? Heck the pizza map made it easier to get to 25k unmolested.
Historically weren't fighters higher flying than bombers, giving the bombers cover from the ... high flying defending fighters?
imho the issue isn't the maps here its the fact that bombers now have to calibrate, level out, and drop ordinance more true to life fashion at a lower altitude to increase accuracy rather than fly at 30k to 40k and drop with pinpoint accuracy that we saw in 1.09.
We're now all understanding why bombers went up in large squadrons with squadron fighters covering them. More bombers in the air, 3 for every one pilot in AH now, yields higher percentage that the bombing run will do damage required. Fighters boom and zoom trying to keep the bomber tails clear of fighters who are boom and zooming the bombers ... while the bombers are spraying an amazing amount of lead at them defending fighters boom and zooming them.
Maybe we're seeing culture shock, we're seeing the arcade strats coming up against real strat?
Dunno, just some thoughts thrown out there, my 2 cents is free and ready to be abused.
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Beetle is right the old maps are to small
For me this is a big frustration people spawn within 5 minutes and not a few
The old size suits niks and spits perfectly
i'm not a big shot 10 in a row pilot so i mostly get in dogfights to long
This means i always have to fight out a bunch of gangers who spawn close.
On the bigger maps the peoples are more spread out giving fights more quality.
Plus seen the maps long it's getting boring
interest is a bit gone.
Not that i wil give up my account no way
;)
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with all the "strat" targets on the map and all the undefended/lightly defended fields to attack ..... one would have to assume that anyone attacking a1 or a4 as a "strat" element is doing it simply for the attention "look at me i'm important too" or, simply as a spoiler.. "how dare they furball and ignore me".
lazs
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Narsus, Shiva, & Wlfgng: If you would reread my post (more carefully this time, please), you will see that I said I was ambivalent about the reintroduction of the old maps. It's not the maps I have a problem with; it's the arcade gameplay that comes as a result of those small scale maps combined with features like the bardar and Mission Editor. Don't tell me that high N1K wasn't some sort of aerial vulcher just waiting for folks like me to arrive!
Revvin! Took me ages to work out the meaning of FFS - LOL! How's yer gob?
Lazs! I am so glad you responded. :D A thread would be incomplete without having you arguing with me. :) I bet everyone woulda got sick of one map only tho after a while.
Sure thing - and I would be one of them. I said that on Day-1. I was not arguing in favour of the pizza map, but more the game play that became possible (field capture etc. - I know you disapprove) and the ability to carry out those stealth missions with a handful of people (because there's only a relative handful on at Eurotimes) without the LA7/N1K dweebs ruining it at a stroke by upping from an adjoining field five minutes away. I didn't attack A1 for hours on end. I flew about four sorties there, and did something else when I realised that the rooks had the upper hand. But thank you for your kind words. I'd like to buy you a gift - maybe a new tin of polish for you to clean your guns :D:D
Shiva (again) So instead of making any attempt to make a coordinated attack on the field, you just took off in your jabo to hit the field, expecting that you'd be able to set up a coordinated attack on the fly, and then come here and whine when it doesn't happen.
It didn't happen like that. At first, I was resigned to furballing, and that's why I took the 190A5. But then two guys made themselves known on voice comms, and I realised that we would have a chance to capture the field. We originally thought (owing to the reduced presence of Knits at A4) that they (the knits) were fighting a two-front war - Bish to the east, and rook to the west. They might have been, but clearly the rooks had gained the upper hand - possibly because the knits had no other field from which to take off. But then of course the rooks attempted some opportunist kills of the Bish - and we were only trying to do their job for them! That N1K should have let me in. I could have flattened the field, then he could have killed me and summoned the Goon ;) By the way, I did NOT read that Q&A thing - it must have got buried in all the whining material from the FW and GtG crowd. I read PLENTY of that. :rolleyes:
Funked Up If you can't get people to help you like that then the problem is your social skills, not the map.
Someone else who opens his gob without having read my post properly. If you would reread it, you will see that it wasn't a solo jabo run. Two other guys announced that they were interested in capture. That's WHY I switched to jabo Thunderbolt. I'm surprised you didn't invite me to kiss your ass, especially as there is plenty there to be kissed! :D:D:D May I remind you, Mr. P-Funk, that AH is a game not played solely by Americans. The Euro afternoon will see players from many different countries, with many different first languages. There are some excellent Japanese guys on at that time, but few of them speak English. Some of the Europeans speak English, but the jargon may not be easy for them. Language is a problem. I hope you'll take the time to understand this, and not be a smartass next time.
CDSMMNT Historically weren't fighters higher flying than bombers
I have already satisfied myself, on the strengh of the postings in another thread, that the historical aspects of the real WW2 have naff-all to do with AH. :rolleyes:
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Beet1e> Fine thanks, was'nt what they originally thought, had a root filing so should be online later
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So ... what is it you are complaining about in your original post that initiated this thread?
CDSMMNT
quote:
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Historically weren't fighters higher flying than bombers
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I have already satisfied myself, on the strengh of the postings in another thread, that the historical aspects of the real WW2 have naff-all to do with AH.
Btw: that quote you have from my post is fairly out of context of my post which is in reply to your entire post. I'm not caring to apply WWII historical strats to AH at all, just saying that some do and perhaps some WWII historical strats MIGHT apply, especially with the new 1.10.x feature set(s).
Anyway, I thought you complained about a bomber run and how it didn't fit into your desired encounter for the situation.
Sounds like now to me your simply whining about the fact you wanted to lowball into a town with a bomber and blast some buildings unharrassed but sadly got foiled by some N1K who was covering his base like a good lil defender.
Quix
Edit: and using the map as the scapegoat
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beetle... i know you couldn't know this but you don't use "a tin of polish" to clean firearms... Thank you for your kind offer tho and if it's not too much trouble i would prefer you send "shooters choice" or , old reliable, "hoppes #9"
email me for the address to send them to.
I feel the urge to reciprocate.... I will send you a present also... Toothbrush and toothpaste.... with instructions. Who knows? you might even start a fad in britan.
Thanks again.
lazs
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Instructions? We (British) don't need no steeekin instructions to know how to use our toothbrushes to clean our bathroom tiles. It's not like a toothbrush has any other uses.:)
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CDS - I apologise for quoting you out of context. However, YOU didn't read my post properly! I was not in a bomber, I was in a P47D30. And the N1K was not covering HIS base - he was a rook, capping A1 which was knit. And he did NOT kill me. I barrel rolled, and he had so much speed that he overran me, and pulled up. By the time he could resume the chase, I had extended such that he could not catch me. I guess we should teach him about the scissors!
Lazs - LOL! Double LOL!!! I've never owned a gun, as I have no plans to shoot anyone. :D As for the toothbrush/toothpaste, hehe - you're a little off target with me, but point well taken. When I lived in America, I noticed that dental hygiene and orthodontics was taken much more seriously than here (at that time - early 1980s). Kids routinely wore orthodontic braces in the US, yet when I wore one (in the 1960s) kids made fun of me :( You'll be pleased to know that I saw my dental hygienist only this week - all OK. And I haven't had a tooth drilled in 14 years. Lazs, I think I like you after all. You're funny. You make me laugh. :):D;)
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I just got lucky I guess...
My post appeared within 24 hrs of HTC reinstating rotation Beet1e tho you are welcome to come to your own conclusions as you already have.
HTC dropped the price for AH within a couple of days of a post in which i stated I could not afford the old price too..
I don't think my opinions weigh that heavily on HTC, do you?
SKurj
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Someone else who opens his gob without having read my post properly. If you would reread it, you will see that it wasn't a solo jabo run. Two other guys announced that they were interested in capture.
Oooooooooh a whole 3 plane mission. With no escort, but you expect to have security against the entire enemy air force(s). Please.
May I remind you, Mr. P-Funk, that AH is a game not played solely by Americans.
You might have noticed that half the guys in my squad are from Poland. We also have had guys from Germany, Spain, and Russia.
The Euro afternoon will see players from many different countries, with many different first languages. There are some excellent Japanese guys on at that time, but few of them speak English. Some of the Europeans speak English, but the jargon may not be easy for them. Language is a problem.
Are you trying to say that the language barrier is compounding your organizational problems?
If so you have a point. But still I have found that 99% of AH players know enough aviation english to get the job done.
But let's get back to the root of the problem. You can't organize a mission package sufficient to defeat enemy air defenses. This could be due to a lack of social skills on your part (doubtful because you are a congenial fellow in my experience), or a language barrier (I think you overstate this issue.).
But I think the real issue is that most other players aren't interested in playing the way you like to play. Instead of pressing on with an ahistorical 3-ship suicide raid, and then asking that the game be altered to make this ridiculous tactics more effective, you should look for a solution to this issue.
Possible Solutions:
1. Alter other players' behavior. Seems unlikely unless you have studied mind control.
2. Find a game where people behave how you want them to. I've played this game as well as WarBirds and WWII Online and I don't see people behaving that way. I think chances are slim and none that you will ever find a MMOG where humans will always want to play your way.
3. Play a single player game in which you control the goals of all the other pilots. Il-2 is a great example. It's a fine game, and you can do all kinds of missions with you trusty AI teammates. They are happy to fly milkruns or boring escort missions or even battlefield recce sorties, whatever you want them to do. And they will never give into the temptation to furball unless you want them to do so.
4. Realize that the main arena format will never give you what you are looking for, and fly in the MA only for practice and for toejams & giggles. Do your "serious" flying in the TOD and Scenarios where historical-style teamwork is the goal of the whole event.
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beetle said.... "Kids routinely wore orthodontic braces in the US, yet when I wore one (in the 1960s) kids made fun of me"
I don't think it was the braces that were at fault. Heck, I make fun of you and I've never even seen your teeth.
lazs
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Yea....Lay off the braces will ya? Sheesh. They have feelings too.
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(http://12.37.166.68/~xnachox/pics/sig.jpg)
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Originally posted by lazs2
I feel the urge to reciprocate.... I will send you a present also... Toothbrush and toothpaste.... with instructions. Who knows? you might even start a fad in britan.
Thanks again.
lazs
OMG...LOL...after seeing some of the Brits with amazingly poor teeth, I've wondered if orthodontists are not allowed in the UK ;)
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P-Funk! Now listen to me! It wasn't a three plane mission. There were about 10-12 Bishops from A4 to A1. Most were happy to furball. Of that 10-12, only about three of us were working towards capture. We had hoped that the other 8-9 would cap the field while the 3 jabo guys prepared the field. It would have worked, had it not been for the rooks appearing at great height. But that's what happens when bases are only 5 mins apart, hence my dislike of the gameplay which is engendered by these maps. By the way, Funk, which were the "razor back" P47s? Was that just the -C variant?
Lazs - LOL!
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Of that 10-12, only about three of us were working towards capture. We had hoped that the other 8-9 would cap the field while the 3 jabo guys prepared the field.
That's a 3 plane mission. Hope is not sufficient. See my last post, re: other players not playing how you want them to.
Razorbacks are the ones without bubble canopies.
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beetle I'm not disagreeing about map size..
in fact the comment is more general in nature and wasn't directed at you specifically:
a way to move forward is:
instead of complaining about maps (for any reason).. provide an alternative.
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Originally posted by beet1e
So now we’re back to furballing. And gangbangs. And vulchfests. :rolleyes: but what’s this I see? A rook N1K – at 25K! Yeah, yeah, yeah
HTC, don’t take us back to all this crap. Do something! You listened to the 10% of guys who are members of the FWC (Furball Whiner Club without the game handing them our heads on a plate.
Rude! – any chance?
Warbirds handle was SCRMBL
You will NEVER see me in a N1K
You will NEVER see me in a N1K
I find this highly amusing, your ego is so fragile that your afraid that folks might say your a nik dweeb(one of the best planes in the game) But you have no problem with whining and crying like a little baby with sour milk!
TOO DAMN FUNNY!
X2Lee
AW handle was X2Lee
You will never hear me crying like a sissy!
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Beet1e ... /sigh
CDS - I apologise for quoting you out of context. However, YOU didn't read my post properly! I was not in a bomber, I was in a P47D30. And the N1K was not covering HIS base - he was a rook, capping A1 which was knit. And he did NOT kill me. I barrel rolled, and he had so much speed that he overran me, and pulled up. By the time he could resume the chase, I had extended such that he could not catch me. I guess we should teach him about the scissors!
I did say a bomber run implying bomber plane but didn't mean to, "you were bombing" is where I should of left it at.
The N1K, you got me there, since it was a foe over a base you intended to try to take I did make the assumption (assume I know) that it was defending, it could be argued it WAS defending, depends on who feels who was about to take the field.
I never said you got killed ... by N1K or otherwise. Kudos to you for extending and getting away.
I guess the short of what I'm saying is:
Its not the fault of the map.
The current 1.10.x release has made the strat "more real," regardless of map, and people will have to adjust to it. Others have stated in this thread correctly that if you go JABO you should have fighter support so that N1K (which ever foe it is) or otherwise doesn't deter you from your objective ... or you go in praying you go unoticed.
I love JABO with a P-51D for some reason, tend to do it solo / sneak and then jump into dog fights once ordinance is away. I realize that if I get spotted and the spot reacts to me I may have to drop ordinance prior to objective if I want to survive ... stuff happens, we either adjust or die.
But the biggest for me was: its not the fault of the map.
How could it be?
Quix
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Funked - you're right. I should have called for the usual list: 20 tiffies, 17 LANCs, 5 B17s, 14 Goons, P38s, Spits - and a partridge in a pear tree. :rolleyes: Oh, soooo challenging :(
X2Lee Fragile ego? Are you kidding? After going 10 rounds with Lazs in another thread? LOL! Nope, you can say what you like :) N1Ks and LA7s are nonsense planes :D
Wlfgang I have provided an alternative! Doh - not someone else who doesn't read my posts? :( I suggested turning off of bardar and Mission Editor. It's in a thread way back.
LePaul - even though I'm British, I absolutely agree with you. I really noticed it when I came home from America in 1982.
OK, guys. TOMATO is here, and I must retire from my PC for the evening. No AH for me tonight. :D:D:D
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I like the idea of map rotation and was delighted to see it re-introduced. I really hope HTC retires some of 256x256 maps as they bring larger maps online.
When I fly, I ordinarily don't seek furballs, rather I fly in areas that are lightly populated by enemy fighters. I enjoy fighting 1 vs. 1.
With the 256x256 maps, that's a difficult chore at any time of the day and impossible during the evening (US.)
I'm looking forward to new maps and hope SFMA is the last 256x256 map retired. I like it! :)
curly
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Originally posted by beet1e
Funked - you're right. I should have called for the usual list: 20 tiffies, 17 LANCs, 5 B17s, 14 Goons, P38s, Spits - and a partridge in a pear tree. :rolleyes: Oh, soooo challenging
If you want challenge then why are you complaining when your 3 man raid gets bounced by high CAP? If you want challenge then why do you ask for bigger maps with more easily milk-runnable fields. At least make up your mind what you want before you ask HTC to change the game.
Let's look at the case you described. Three jabos and a bunch of friendly fighters in the area. You complained about getting bounced. Then you argue that we need bigger maps.
The only way bigger maps will fix the "problem" is by creating lots of undefended fields which your 3 man group can mikrun. Not only is this gamey and ahistorical, it's not what the vast majority of players are interested in.
And if you aren't on your milkrun map, the only other way to make that mission work is to get those friendly fighters to cover you. But in your last message you said having an escort package was not challenging enough.
So I don't think you're actually interested in teamwork or historical combat. You just want everybody to play your way and you want a map that lets you do 3-man milkruns and feel like you accomplished something. I recommend single player therapy.
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Didn't drop in to argue. The Map rotation is a good thing. Each gets alittle of the good and the bad depending on their preference.
Dropped in to say the "fur" between 1 and 4 last night WAS AN ABSOLUTE BLAST :D
Best hour of flying I've spent this tour. Had all the required ingredients for great "fur". When it all comes together it's...
Nirvana
LOL
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Originally posted by X2Lee
X2Lee
AW handle was X2Lee
You will never hear me crying like a sissy!
Comment on this sissy boy
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Yep. The core group of TAS spent a few very enjoyable hours in the melee between A1 and A4 last night.
We weren't involved in any attempts at base capture, rather we just sort of defended A4 from an ever flowing incoming tide of enemy.
Absolutely first rate fun.
Despite the wailing and gnashing of teeth from our fellow Bish to "get serious" :rolleyes: and defend the homeland or the "Bish will get reset! !!!!! !!!!! :rolleyes:
I'm not a big fan of Ndisles. Never was. Just my opinion, I'm sure others just love it.
If it got reset the WORST thing that would happen to me is that I'd be on a different map. What's the problem again?
:D
Yes...... it IS a GAME. Play it the way YOU want to play it.
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Originally posted by lazs2
I feel the urge to reciprocate.... I will send you a present also... Toothbrush and toothpaste.... with instructions. Who knows? you might even start a fad in britan.
Thanks again.
lazs
ROTFL!!! Thats just WRONG!!
(...another member of the HiTech Speeling Club?)
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The following is an old post by HiTech. It might help put some of this in focus. BTW. The gameplay concession to the fighter ver bomber relationship, is the reason no one has ever seen me in a bomber. I fly niks all the time.
hitech
Administrator
Registered: Jul 1999
Location: Grapevine TX
Posts: 1618
Fariz: AH is a Game first and a sim 2nd. The only purpose of having the sim is to make a game.
What everyone is debating is out side of a "REAL LIFE SIM" posiblities. Realism is a very fickle thing. Everyone want's to pick and choose only the pieces of realism they wish to see.
If you step back and look at AH it only tries to capture pieces of what things were like in WWII. Lots of compromises need to and are made for game play. Simple things like auto pilot's,Air field spacing. Releate purly to game play. But it is my belife that most people don't wish to fly with their hand on the stick for 50 hours just to have 1 air engagement.
AH Is now 3 different games in 1. Fighter,bomber,vehicles. Using real life as a method for balancing between these 3 games just isn't a releality. How many times in real life do you think bomber raids were conducted with only 4 planes or less ,let alone 1. It's easy to say that people should fly like real life and form big bomber groups but that just dosn't happen very often. Therefore we are faced with 2 choices.
1. Make the bomber v fighter real life realistic, what this would produce in the end is a lot less bombers flying around.
2. Adjust things on the bomber's so they have a fighting chance. This does make flying a buff fun, and hence puts more of them in the air.
HTC's life would be very simple if all we had to do was make a REAL simulator with out any thoughts of game play.
In the end we have to ask ourselves is it FUN, is it FUN, is it FUN. Everything we choose to implement has to first and formost meet that criteria. This includes implementing components of realism, because it's adds to imersion and hence fun. But if we just add realism with out any thought to fun HTC would not be around long.
HiTech
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P-Funk The point I'm trying to make is that had it been a fight between Bish(A4) and Knit(A1), then it would have been a fair fight. They could have upped their defensive fighters, rolled GVs to defend the town, and manned the field gun to attack vulchers. Had they got fighters up to any reasonable alt - 5K and up - that would have been a challenge for the jabo as we would have relied on the support of our lite fighters.
But nooooooooooooooooo.... :(:( The fields are so damn close together that any reasonable attempt gets jumped! In this case it was by rooks, who held every other base on Gangbang Island at that time. Anyway, Mr. P-Funk, we had this discussion here (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52208) a while ago.
OK, P-Funk, we are both ex-WBers. And what I'm finding in AH (you may or may not agree) is that the "political orientation" (if I may call it that) is different here. In WB, there were many more Historical Realists. And they could be a pain in the arse. I'm like Lazs in that I don't want WW2 to be recreated, but I don't want an arcade game either. I've read Hitech's statement (kindly attached by easymo), and have a better understanding of the game's objectives. If I may venture an opinion, I would say that these are somewhat different from those of the WB guys I hung around with. We tried to stay alive. We always tried to land missions. I used to enjoy capturing fields when there were only 3-4 of us in the mission as a whole, but that's just me.
The average AH player seems to be rather different. He wants FUN, and only FUN, and doesn't want to work for it - one guy said just that in another thread. Of course, WB had its share of kamikaze pilots and GtG players. But have you noticed how few multi-kill sorties get landed in AH? Maybe a lot of single kill sorties are being landed, but given the numbers in the arena I would have expected many more multi-kill sorties to be landed. I suspect that the vast majority of sorties are not landed, which would seem to suggest an arcade mentality at work.
I emailed you privately about all this some months ago, and you sent back a lengthy reply - remember? As it happens, we had just been winging together that night, or thereabouts. But if we just add realism with out any thought to fun HTC would not be around long.
Yep, and maybe iEN should read that.
The only changes I want to see in this otherwise excellent GAME (there! I've said it) are these: - Reduced occurrence of the situation in which fighters are simply waiting for you to arrive - with a 15K alt advantage.
- The ability to capture fields without partridge in a pear tree missions - 5 tiffies, 4 LANCs, 3 B17s, 2 goons, and...
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One of the things that HT was addressing in that post, was the reason the 50's in a B17 have 4 times the effective range as the 50's in a fighter. I have never once heard a bomber fan ask that, that be made more realistic. LOL
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Originally posted by beet1e
[B}The ability to capture fields without partridge in a pear tree missions - 5 tiffies, 4 LANCs, 3 B17s, 2 goons, and... [/list] [/B]
It wasn't that long ago that field capture was pretty easy. In fact, in beta it was extremely easy. As the game evolved, hangars were dispersed and other such methods were used to make capture more difficult.
So, it's been a long road for some of us beetle.
One thing is constant along the road however. There's always some folks that don't like the way things are or work...... no matter what HTC does.
I assure you, if you got everything the way YOU wanted it in this game.... The very next second someone else would be posting suggesting that "this just isn't right" and "someting needs to be done."
Me? I just play the game. As long as I'm having fun, I'll continue to play. If it ever gets boring, I'll write all the folks at HTC a long Thank You letter telling them what a blast I had and then I'll move on I guess. If ever.
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beetle... I was in WB as long as anyone and my experiance differs from yuours.... They/we wanted selective realism. I wanted everything modeled as realistically as possible in the damage, gunnery and FM and.... realistic views (or realistic as possible)... same things I want here.. A lot of the "historical" set didn't want histor at all or realism for that matter. They wanted to get some sort of advantage for their chosen ride or style... It is much the same here.
They would get all anal about introduction dates and such but not a one of em flew in finger fours or in any historic manner at all. They all wanted thinly disguised concessions that would help them and hurt the other guy. The only time they begged for parity was when they were the underdog on the technolodgy timeframe. Great fun if all you ever ran was the Battle of Britan.
When everyone has the same planes available you have parity.. when there are a lot of planes with fairly equal but different talents you have variety.. When you have the ability to furbal and strat in the same map you have fgood gameplay. When 1 or 2 guys can spoil the fun of dozens with very little effort other than the willingness to die.... you have poor gameplay.
I want parity, variety and good gameplay.
lazs
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beet1e writes
Put quite simply, you have caved in under pressure from the furball whiners, the gangbang-vulch society, and the GtG Players
There were MANY people who hated that map. Quit trying to shove everyone you disagree with into a category that makes you able to dismiss them. I'm not any one of those 3 things and that map sucked my mudhole.
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Lazs!
I agree with you, and the scenario you describe sounds like WB2.77 in the last days before I threw in the towel. The sideswitching to the winning side had to be seen to be believed, largely caused by the Axis v. Allies set up. Although I thought that was going to be good, I now see that for gameplay, it doesn't work. If you want to get inside my head a bit more, I've attached a .ZIP file with some posts from 2000 - one is about the very topic you mentioned - Selective Realism. -just in case you missed them first time round! (don't know when you left WB)
Toad - you're right too. The aggravating thing about these games is that there's always someone who will exploit game features in an unrealistic way in order to maximise his scoring opportunities. These are the GtG guys.
Botabing - I never said that those three groups were the only people who did not like the map. I didn't think too much of it either. But there are many people - like Toad and yourself - who might not like something but who don't complain about it. I suspect it was the three groups I identified who whined the most. Sorry if I appear to have castigated you or anyone else into those groups unjustifiably.
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Well, the gang bang vultch fests are back with a vengance. Guess we're having fun now.