Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Ripsnort on July 19, 2002, 11:15:27 AM

Title: Two pilots merge head on, both lose a wing, first one that hits the ground loses
Post by: Ripsnort on July 19, 2002, 11:15:27 AM: Two pilots merge head on(vertical, horizontal, even turn fighting.., doesn't matter), both lose a wing, first one that hits the ground loses, last one to hit the ground gets the kill of the other.

A typical scenario, even during the rope-a-dope, when not timed perfectly, or a N1K hanging on a prop...however, even if both lose a wing, its usually the heavier plane, or the plane with more energy, that hits the ground first. Other guy dies, or bails out, but he's awarded the kill.

In Warbirds, both pilots got the kill. Here, only one gets the kill.

Supposedly this was implemented to discourage HO's, however, a HO can be describe from several angles (See Vertical Rope a dope)

The question is this:

Which, In Your Opinion (IYO), is a more fair scenario?

A) Both pilots lost a wing, therefore both are dead or have to bail, both should be awarded a kill of one another.

B) Both pilots are dead, but only one should get the kill(aka; Tough luck if you have more E or a heavier plane)
Title: Two pilots merge head on, both lose a wing, first one that hits the ground loses
Post by: Innominate on July 19, 2002, 11:22:43 AM: I think that all kills should be awarded, even after you've been killed.
Title: Two pilots merge head on, both lose a wing, first one that hits the ground loses
Post by: Red Tail 444 on July 19, 2002, 11:25:45 AM: I Prefer C.

Crash To Desktop following Ram!

Certain plane types (therefore, certain driver types) seem to ram more often than others when cornered, and it's getting old, bigtime. Besides which, I am always in a heavier plane, and after getting them down to low E, they still get the kill...
Title: Two pilots merge head on, both lose a wing, first one that hits the ground loses
Post by: Steven on July 19, 2002, 12:14:09 PM: In the CT I got rammed from behind by a 110 but he had a slight nose up attitude and mine was down. I beat him to the ground by only a couple seconds and he got the kill. It didn't upset me though, but figured I'd toss this situation into the discussion. I would've been dead anyway 'cause I was trying to outrun a mini-conga line of 3 (or maybe 4) enemy aircraft with greater E than me.
Title: Two pilots merge head on, both lose a wing, first one that hits the ground loses
Post by: tgnr2001 on July 19, 2002, 12:20:41 PM: Or... how about D: No one gets the kill. Ramming shouldn't be rewarded and here is no easy way (maybe no way) for the system to tell who was at fault... In any case, neither pilot did anything to deserve a kill.

tgnr
Title: Two pilots merge head on, both lose a wing, first one that hits the ground loses
Post by: SKurj on July 19, 2002, 01:24:58 PM: I've had situations where there was a collision and i went down and no kill was awarded.. why?

i've also collided with a guy and he went down.. i didn't hit him with guns and got no kill..

Cuz no shots hit me..

SKurj
Title: Two pilots merge head on, both lose a wing, first one that hits the ground loses
Post by: Maverick on July 19, 2002, 01:39:41 PM: Only fair way to do this is to have both sides of a collision die and no kill. Kinda like the RL ya know.
Title: Two pilots merge head on, both lose a wing, first one that hits the ground loses
Post by: Ripsnort on July 19, 2002, 01:43:06 PM: Quote
Originally posted by tgnr2001
Or... how about D: No one gets the kill. Ramming shouldn't be rewarded and here is no easy way (maybe no way) for the system to tell who was at fault... In any case, neither pilot did anything to deserve a kill.

tgnr

When you figure a way to code that, patent it! ;)
Title: Two pilots merge head on, both lose a wing, first one that hits the ground loses
Post by: Ripsnort on July 19, 2002, 01:44:24 PM: Incidently, this is NOT about collisions, this is about bullets of each aircraft striking the other and taking off vital flight structures.
Title: Two pilots merge head on, both lose a wing, first one that hits the ground loses
Post by: Karnak on July 19, 2002, 02:14:47 PM: Both get the kill.

End the "ride-it-into-the-ground-hoping-somebody-kills-the-guy-who-shot-you-down-before-you-hit-the-ground-BS."
Title: Two pilots merge head on, both lose a wing, first one that hits the ground loses
Post by: Steven on July 19, 2002, 02:24:28 PM: Quote
Incidently, this is NOT about collisions, this is about bullets of each aircraft striking the other and taking off vital flight structures.

Quote
Two pilots merge head on(vertical, horizontal, even turn fighting.., doesn't matter), both lose a wing, first one that hits the ground loses, last one to hit the ground gets the kill of the other.

My bad. It sounded like a collision occuring to me. However, collision by bullet and collision by aircraft is really the same thing...they are just objects in the grand scheme of things. If you change how the bullet model is scored, you will and must affect how the collision model is scored (which wouldn't be such a bad thing for me considering in my example I was rammed from behind but I won the race to the ground.)

I like the system as it is. If it gets changed to where both pilots get the kills then that'll bring up new flaws in the system I'm sure.
Title: Two pilots merge head on, both lose a wing, first one that hits the ground loses
Post by: CMC Airboss on July 19, 2002, 02:26:26 PM: The kills should only be awarded if you land with one wing =)

MiG
Title: Two pilots merge head on, both lose a wing, first one that hits the ground loses
Post by: tgnr2001 on July 19, 2002, 05:06:50 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Incidently, this is NOT about collisions, this is about bullets of each aircraft striking the other and taking off vital flight structures.

:( Oops... my mistake

tgnr
Title: Two pilots merge head on, both lose a wing, first one that hits the ground loses
Post by: funkedup on July 19, 2002, 05:09:27 PM: The number of kills should be 2 or zero.
Title: Two pilots merge head on, both lose a wing, first one that hits the ground loses
Post by: tgnr2001 on July 19, 2002, 05:15:43 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort

When you figure a way to code that, patent it! ;)

's easy... check the text buffer for the one who yell's $%^* rammed me.. then you'll know who it was. ;)

Just didn't say "no way" because I figured someone would point out I was wrong... and anyway, there probably is a way given enough time and energy (and desire/need) to develop an algorithm that would provide an answer to, within a certain degree of certainty, which plane was more likely at fault in the collision... would it be perfect? probably not.. also, probably not worth the effort. (unless someone would like to offer some big $$$ for the algorithm) :D

tgnr
Title: Two pilots merge head on, both lose a wing, first one that hits the ground loses
Post by: Ripsnort on July 19, 2002, 05:56:35 PM: Quote
Originally posted by funkedup
The number of kills should be 2 or zero.

Agreed! You and I need to get HT drunk, then get him to change the code the same night, Aug.1st --4th. :) This is my biggest pet peeve with AH.
Title: Two pilots merge head on, both lose a wing, first one that hits the ground loses
Post by: senna on July 19, 2002, 07:14:50 PM: There should be no kills for midair collisions or mutual deaths. Both over eager beavers should die. Right now sometimes one plane flies off without any damage at all. Thats fakey.

:eek:
Title: Two pilots merge head on, both lose a wing, first one that hits the ground loses
Post by: majic on July 19, 2002, 08:40:13 PM: "sometimes one plane flies off without any damage at all. "

That's because only one person see's that on their computer, the other one avoided the collision. (remember, lag does stuff like this)
Title: Two pilots merge head on, both lose a wing, first one that hits the ground loses
Post by: Kweassa on July 19, 2002, 09:00:07 PM: HO is a legal tactic, and fairly logical when you can trust your plane's durability and firepower. However, knowing nothing else BUT HOs is definately dweebism beyond compare. Once I've met this N1K2 who tried 6 consecutive HO runs on me. Of course, I didn't walk into it.. first few passes I felt fun, feeling like a Matador, but after the guy's fourth HO attempt, boy does it get boring and lame.

Awarding kills for reckless HO attempts does not help in anyway. The goal of ACM is to kill without being killed, not mutual destruction. You risk a gamble in HOs, and if your wing falls off, no matter what state the guy you shot at is, you lose.

Therefore, I support no kills awarded when both opponents fatally damage each other. Maybe that will actually urge people who rely only on HOs, to learn some other way to achieve kills.
Title: Two pilots merge head on, both lose a wing, first one that hits the ground loses
Post by: SKurj on July 19, 2002, 09:34:06 PM: b b but... kills were awarded posthumously(sp?)

SKurj
Title: Two pilots merge head on, both lose a wing, first one that hits the ground loses
Post by: Steven on July 20, 2002, 02:07:12 AM: Kweassa, good point.
Title: Two pilots merge head on, both lose a wing, first one that hits the ground loses
Post by: MoonJuice on July 22, 2002, 12:34:05 PM: No kill should be award unless at least one friendly is in visual range. Dems are the rules - must have a witness.

Colliding with the enemy and destroying government property is a court martial offense.
Title: Two pilots merge head on, both lose a wing, first one that hits the ground loses
Post by: Vortex on July 24, 2002, 08:08:02 AM: c) Niether should get the kill...ever.
Title: Two pilots merge head on, both lose a wing, first one that hits the ground loses
Post by: Ripsnort on July 26, 2002, 09:53:31 AM: Punt!

Any Vets from beta have an opinion on this? This is one thing that I really hate about AH..
Title: Two pilots merge head on, both lose a wing, first one that hits the ground loses
Post by: Fatty on July 26, 2002, 10:02:14 AM: Last to hit the ground should get the kill. Better chance for a HO whine that way.
Title: Two pilots merge head on, both lose a wing, first one that hits the ground loses
Post by: tgnr2001 on July 26, 2002, 07:48:17 PM: Whoever has the most posts on the BB should get the kill. :D

tgnr
Title: Two pilots merge head on, both lose a wing, first one that hits the ground loses
Post by: BOOT on July 28, 2002, 08:54:17 AM: ZERO POINTS

Punt******
Title: Two pilots merge head on, both lose a wing, first one that hits the ground loses
Post by: Samm on July 28, 2002, 10:06:43 AM: Dead pilots don't get kills . Unless they're zombie pilots, or maybe vampires .
Title: Two pilots merge head on, both lose a wing, first one that hits the ground loses
Post by: Hristo on July 29, 2002, 12:56:33 AM: Happened a lot. I rope someone of Spit&Nik suicide squad. While I dive on him, he manages to put his nose up, a vertical HO develops and we both miss our wings. Still, I hit the ground first and he gets the kill.

Well, tough luck. I started with advantage but blew it - the enemy managed a draw. From ACM point of view, it was my fault.

From realism point of view, I am pissed as hell at so many suicide one-way-ticket Spit/Niki types. But guess what, it has been solved (IMO) by kill message. No kills shown unless you land.

On a different note. I got 10+ kills in G-10 the other day, exclusively by roping dw...newbies in H2H. They were very pissed and it was almost 7 vs 1. I decided to land on another field, but a guy takes off from that same field (watching radar, obviously). His only goal was to shoot me down so my kills don't show. He manages a HO and laughs. Well, that did piss me off ;).

Lesson learned : nevere underestimate the power of a dweeb. They will use whatever the game offers them and go a looooong way.
Title: Two pilots merge head on, both lose a wing, first one that hits the ground loses
Post by: Ripsnort on July 29, 2002, 10:47:22 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Hristo

Lesson learned : nevere underestimate the power of a dweeb. They will use whatever the game offers them and go a looooong way.

LOL!

(punt)
Title: Two pilots merge head on, both lose a wing, first one that hits the ground loses
Post by: Don on July 30, 2002, 01:38:30 PM: >>Which, In Your Opinion (IYO), is a more fair scenario?

A) Both pilots lost a wing, therefore both are dead or have to bail, both should be awarded a kill of one another.

B) Both pilots are dead, but only one should get the kill(aka; Tough luck if you have more E or a heavier plane) <<

Ripsnort:
It seems to me the pilot that augers last ought to get the kill awarded, even though he will soon be burger meat him/herself.
Btw, I have bailed after my plane was no longer functioning; the kill was awarded to my opponent and he then dies, and I didnt get the kill. Even though he died due to my bullets, he still got the kill on me and I lived. Very strange IMO but, a little different scenario than what you describe.
Title: Two pilots merge head on, both lose a wing, first one that hits the ground loses
Post by: Sandman on August 01, 2002, 12:12:03 AM: You know how some people here react to complaints about killshooter? You know... they think it's fine, they don't see a problem... quit complaining... i can't hear you... lalalalala... talk to the hand... the face ain't listening...

I'm kind like that on this issue...

:D
Title: Two pilots merge head on, both lose a wing, first one that hits the ground loses
Post by: Feenyx on August 04, 2002, 03:07:04 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
Therefore, I support no kills awarded when both opponents fatally damage each other. Maybe that will actually urge people who rely only on HOs, to learn some other way to achieve kills. [/B]

I don't have a problem with that rule for fighter vs. fighter encounters. But what about fighter vs. bomber? If a fighter gets fatally shot while ripping a buff's wings off, I'm inclined to think that both pilots deserve a kill, since it's far more likely to happen under "acceptable" circumstances.

Does this issue warrant having seperate scoring rules for fighter vs. fighter and fighter vs. bomber? And what about (gasp) bomber vs. bomber?
Title: Two pilots merge head on, both lose a wing, first one that hits the ground loses
Post by: Halo on August 04, 2002, 10:34:00 AM: Dead is dead, no matter what the cause. People get credit for what they did after they die too. If each pilot caused the other to die, each pilot should get credit for a kill. Whenever a pilot causes another to conk, he/she should get the kill, posthumously or not.
Title: Two pilots merge head on, both lose a wing, first one that hits the ground loses
Post by: AKDejaVu on August 04, 2002, 11:01:53 AM: The whole "dead is dead" argument is quite funny.

You can't compare what happened in a real life collision to what happens in AH. In real life, people didn't op for the the collision to bost their score. Total deaths weren't tracked for individual pilots.

If both get credit for a kill then you know that if you collide HO with someone that you'll get a kill.

If neither get credit... then you know that if you collide HO with someone, you'll not receive a death on the stats page.

If only one lives, then there is some additional risk involved. You see.. death itself does not count here.

AKDejaVu
Title: Two pilots merge head on, both lose a wing, first one that hits the ground loses
Post by: tgnr2001 on August 04, 2002, 01:59:13 PM: Quote
Originally posted by AKDejaVu

If neither get credit... then you know that if you collide HO with someone, you'll not receive a death on the stats page.

AKDejaVu

Why not? When you crash with no one around, you get a death but no one gets a kill. Why not when you collide, both get a death but no one gets a kill? Kinda closer to real world.

tgnr
Title: Two pilots merge head on, both lose a wing, first one that hits the ground loses
Post by: AKDejaVu on August 04, 2002, 02:05:37 PM: No.. not closer. Different.

When you crash... you crash. There didn't have to be a kill assigned.

You guys are trying to aply real world "rules" to situations that simply did not occur in the real world. Unless you can sit here and tell me that when two planes collided in combat, both pilots were always awarded a kill or neither pilot was awarded a kill... then the argument support is minimal at best.

Now... what supports better gameplay? A system where the outcome is more predictable or one where it is less predictable?

Anyone here actually try to avoid HOs most of the time?

If you don't think that both/neither pilot being awarded a kill would result in more HO situations... you haven't really thought this one through.

AKDejaVu
Title: Two pilots merge head on, both lose a wing, first one that hits the ground loses
Post by: tgnr2001 on August 07, 2002, 09:53:25 AM: Quote
Originally posted by AKDejaVu

If you don't think that both/neither pilot being awarded a kill would result in more HO situations... you haven't really thought this one through.

AKDejaVu

I may have come to the wrong conclusion, but I have thought it through ;)

If they both get a "death" but neither get a "kill"... I think HOs will be avoided unless one plane is out of ammo, sees a goon headed for the town and sacrifices his/her "life" for the country (not that I would ever do that :D )

tgnr
Title: Two pilots merge head on, both lose a wing, first one that hits the ground loses
Post by: Fatty on August 07, 2002, 11:47:48 AM: I would headon more in that situation. The opportunity to kill someone, no chance of that someone getting a kill? I'm on it!