Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Thrawn on July 19, 2002, 11:33:58 AM
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Last Updated Fri, 19 Jul 2002 12:15:44
JERUSALEM - In a tough new response to Palestinian suicide attacks, Israel says it will destroy the homes and expel fathers and brothers of those involved in suicide attacks.
INDEPTH: Middle East - Israel and the Palestinians
Twenty-one relatives were detained Friday, while two homes were destroyed.
http://cbc.ca/stories/2002/07/19/israel_deport020719
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makes sense to me
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Beats the alternative (Think "Ovens") ;)
The bright side is, Iraq, and other nations give a monetary reward for the families of suicide bombers, they can now think of that as "relocation money" ;)
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Originally posted by Eagler
makes sense to me
Absolutely. Your brother goes and blows himself and some others up. The Isrealis come, destroy your home arrest you and your dad, regardless of weather or not you had anything to do with it, or even any for knowledge. Makes perfect sense. And futher more I believe that this is the solution that will finally put a stop to suicide bombings for all time.
I do wonder what your son will think of the Isrealies after watching his home getting destroyed and you and grandpa get arrested for no damn reason.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Absolutely. Your brother goes and blows himself and some others up. The Isrealis come, destroy your home arrest you and your dad, regardless of weather or not you had anything to do with it, or even any for knowledge. Makes perfect sense. And futher more I believe that this is the solution that will finally put a stop to suicide bombings for all time.
I do wonder what your son will think of the Isrealies after watching his home getting destroyed and you and grandpa get arrested for no damn reason.
You DID see the Palestine population (from grandpas to infants) celebrating on the morning of 9/11, didn't you? I am curious just how long Thrawn would survive (probably could be measured in minutes rather than hours) if he went over there, and stated on the streets to those people that he sympathizes with their cause (and they knew he was a Westerner...)
;)
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Originally posted by Eagler
makes sense to me
Lost me there Eagler. Which God exactly would be for taking retribution on the innocent?
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Absolutely. Your brother goes and blows himself and some others up. The Isrealis come, destroy your home arrest you and your dad, regardless of weather or not you had anything to do with it, or even any for knowledge. Makes perfect sense. And futher more I believe that this is the solution that will finally put a stop to suicide bombings for all time.
I do wonder what your son will think of the Isrealies after watching his home getting destroyed and you and grandpa get arrested for no damn reason.
maybe the family will kick some sense into the one who thinks going and blowing up women and children is such a great thing instead of making a hero out of the young murder
Israel is running out of options. They are dealing with murdering lunatics. How would you suggest they proceed? Give into the terrorism of course :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Lost me there Eagler. Which God exactly would be for taking retribution on the innocent?
None sir. This is man's expression of his free will as warped as it is on both sides. God is called into it only as an excuse by one side or the other for their actions..
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Israelis sure know how to create new generation of suicide bombers abd how to turn more people against them.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
You DID see the Palestine population (from grandpas to infants) celebrating on the morning of 9/11, didn't you? I am curious just how long Thrawn would survive (probably could be measured in minutes rather than hours) if he went over there, and stated on the streets to those people that he sympathizes with their cause (and they knew he was a Westerner...)
;)
Not really on topic but, and I fear that well never know the answer. And I wouldn't want to test it. Do you think the average Palastinian dislikes all Westerners or just Americans.
BTW, I empathise with both the Isreali and Palastinian causes. And I think they both going about it the wrong way. No, I do not have a solution, better people then be have tried to find one, and have failed. But, believe this latest move will only cause more hatred between the two peoples. The cycle has to be broken somehow, and this seems to be the same old chit.
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Originally posted by Staga
Israelis sure know how to create new generation of suicide bombers abd how to turn more people against them.
Well if they don't do something, there aren't going to be any Israelis left, but then, thats the goal isn't it?
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Sounds like a resurrection of an old Nazi policy."You kill one of us,we kill your family...Ah heck..We'll kill the whole village too."
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Sounds more like. "You kill one of us. We kill your house." Not really the same thing.
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Not the same,but similar in it's implementation...
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I do wonder what your son will think of the Isrealies after watching his home getting destroyed and you and grandpa get arrested for no damn reason.
Well some kid whose dad blows himself up to kill Jews is probably already fully indoctrinated as a terrorist nutjob.
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Originally posted by funkedup
Well some kid whose dad blows himself up to kill Jews is probably already fully indoctrinated as a terrorist nutjob.
In my little story, it was the kid's uncle that was the nutjob that went and blew himself up.
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This really is an impossible situation to get out of. I was in Saudi in "90"-"91" and even though we were there protecting their(Saudi) intrests it was a well known fact that if Isreal retaliated in ANY way for SCUD attacks upon it's territory that Saudi would boot us out and take up the fight with Iraq,Iran,Jordan and the lot to quell Isreal. Isreal, Palistine, and the muslums will never live in peace no matter what is done to either. Muslum children are taught to seek revenge against Isreal and her allies no matter what the cost, and if killed they are glorified. Isrealies and their children have come to look at the muslum situation as SOP, just something they will have to deal with forever, not looking at really how to end the situation. Hate to just quit anything but this is a losing battle, peace just aint gonna happen......
LAGUERRE
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Uncle hmm that is a stretch ain't it.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Last Updated Fri, 19 Jul 2002 12:15:44
JERUSALEM - In a tough new response to Palestinian suicide attacks, Israel says it will destroy the homes and expel fathers and brothers of those involved in suicide attacks.
Twenty-one relatives were detained Friday, while two homes were destroyed.
http://cbc.ca/stories/2002/07/19/israel_deport020719
Why they do not call thing by right words....
will destroy the homes = will kill whole your family
i dont care let they kill whoever they want, but call things by proper names
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Hate to say that but Nazideutschland invented it after Major Stauffenberg did his bomb assault on Adolf Hitler and some of his generals on July20 1944 (Hitler was only woundet, some others died).
It was called "Sippenhaft" and meant that the whole famly of germans, fighting against Nazideutschland would been send into concentrationcamp.
Blitz
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Yep the Israelis seem to have learned a lot from the Nazis.
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Originally posted by Eagler
makes sense to me
hehe is there any difrent in way of thinking between you and palestinians ?
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Yeah,they come knockin...If you don't answer they burst your door down and shoot unarmed women and children...remember that Isreali news crew that followed the army in a few months ago?
Knocked on door,nobody let them in..they broke door down and shot women and children..nobody else home.Army thought video was safe but news crew vilolated aggrement broadcast it anyway.
Excuse me for thinking they will level more than just the home.
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i have to laught after i read that text ....
What the diddly is going on ?
btw.: i have friend from haifa, Izrael... he is an University professor.. i wish you to hear him while he speak about Izrael`s politic...
many people left izrael and many will follow them
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Originally posted by SirLoin
Yeah,they come knockin...If you don't answer they burst your door down and shoot unarmed women and children...remember that Isreali news crew that followed the army in a few months ago?
Knocked on door,nobody let them in..they broke door down and shot women and children..nobody else home.Army thought video was safe but news crew vilolated aggrement broadcast it anyway.
Excuse me for thinking they will level more than just the home.
For cryin' out loud. How ironic you bring this up when the palestinians specific targets are women and children.
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Originally posted by Eagler
Israel is running out of options.
yeah thats the best moment to check whole history from the start isnt it ?
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The argument is barbaric but has some validity. Palestinians are very-family oriented. Family responcibility is common in muslim law.
So first, families do have influence. Second, they are sacrificing themselves supposedly to benefit their families.
Going after the beneficiaries of a "crime" only makes sence from the prevention point of view.
miko
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as the sucide bombers get younger and ounger, this is a mute point.
who does the law turn to here if your under 18 child commits a crime, say kills someone. is not the family of the perp legally & financially held accountable?
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I don't think *more* hatred is possible.
Originally posted by Thrawn
But, believe this latest move will only cause more hatred between the two peoples.
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Originally posted by Kanth
I don't think *more* hatred is possible.
Good point, lets go with continued.
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Do you think the average Palastinian dislikes all Westerners or just Americans.
Probably just Americans. We don't kiss Palestinian / Arafat bellybutton the way you do. They probably love you guys.
No, I do not have a solution, better people then be have tried to find one, and have failed.
Better people than you have also said there is no good solution. But still you're apparently bright enough to criticize just about everything Isreal does to protect its citizens from being butchered.
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makes sense to me
Eagler u believe in god and so u have morale ???
how fast do u forget what's in the bible huh ?
"U shall not kill"
i guess not
christians, moslims, jews it's the same religion stupid isn't it
all have the same old testament
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When we finally accept our retarded cousin Canada as a state, we're going to have to do some serious "re-education" of the populace.
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Good plan! Heck.. it's a GREAT plan. I'd be totally against it if I hadn't seen so many palestinian "moms" preach about how proud they are of their martyred son/daughter etc. How they wish they had 20 son's to become martyrs. Or all those "men" they interview in the streets preaching about how "we need more suicide bombings" etc etc ad-nauseum.
....but, F-it!! Palestinians wanna play hardball, they gonna get hardball. Simple really.
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Suicide bombers should be dealt with brutally. The knowledge that killing themselves, will get thier family killed is probably one of the better deterrents to stop it.
The only way to stop a suicide terrorist attack is to make the consequences to horrible that nobody would want to subject thier surviving friends and relatives to it.
Then again, it's the united states that keeps israel on a leash. Yes, we must have our oil. Blah.
If you flattened a few square blocks of palestine for every suicide attack, they would stop very quickly.
A few hundred years ago, the arab countries were a great and enlightened culture, and we were the barbarians. It's a pity they're still there.
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Flattening their houses doesn't work.
Guess same people thought that occupying those west bank towns would stop bombings. We all know how did that work...
Don't be naive...
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Absolutely. Your brother goes and blows himself and some others up. The Isrealis come, destroy your home arrest you and your dad, regardless of weather or not you had anything to do with it, or even any for knowledge. Makes perfect sense. And futher more I believe that this is the solution that will finally put a stop to suicide bombings for all time.
I do wonder what your son will think of the Isrealies after watching his home getting destroyed and you and grandpa get arrested for no damn reason.
BUT on the other hand, the brother, father, mother and rest of the family gets a nice bunch of dollar notes from Saddam.
If you cant physically stop the suicide bombers, it might be better to diddly with their minds. Make them think that their family will be arrested, their homes destroyed if they detonate their bomb, make them think that they will be buried together with pigs if they detonate their bomb,(worked for the Brits) make them ask themselves "do I want to wreak havoc on my own family, make them homeless, make them starve, is that how much I hate the Israelis"?
Perhaps one or two will be discouraged.
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Originally posted by Raubvogel
When we finally accept our retarded cousin Canada as a state, we're going to have to do some serious "re-education" of the populace.
Ouch!
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Israel is acting helplessly in this crisis.
Although they have such a great military and a leader who is willing to use it, they are not able to stop the palestinian attacks.
So this patt-situation is going on and creating new "qualities" of tactics.
The palestinians have made their first coordinated suicide-bombing a few days ago, where the first one exploded and the 2nd one waited until the rescue-groups arrived. The he set up his bomb in the hope to take more people with him.
Now Israel is modifiing its tactic - which is a logical consequence.
There are many exaple how useless Israel is acting, but the best one is the building of this wall.
And so I think the only hope to bring both sides to discuss again will be the financial catastrophy both - the Israelians and the Palestines - are running into.
The Palestinians economy has already collapsed and the israelian is also near to this point. The war (and also the building and maintainance of this ridiculous wall) are extremely expensive and destroying the israeli economy.
No foreign investor will put in these days money in israeli projects or those in Israel - which is also logical.
So it not important what the one or other side is doing now in this war.
The question ist, when their financial problems have reached a point that the have to stop their fightings.
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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
Eagler u believe in god and so u have morale ???
how fast do u forget what's in the bible huh ?
"U shall not kill"
i guess not
christians, moslims, jews it's the same religion stupid isn't it
all have the same old testament
BUG
the article said they "arrest" the family members and destroy their homes - I think this is desperate but acceptable
I do not think "killing" the entire family, relatives would be and I would be against that extreme.
But you need to leave God, Allah, name ur supreme being here - out of this as the entire mess is man's creation. I don't see Allah running into crowds with a bomber belt on or God driving any of the tanks - I just see confused and scared men.
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Originally posted by Eagler
But you need to leave God, Allah, name ur supreme being here -
we call this " hura vlastenci" ... its could be translated as "holiday believer" .. person whitch belive only in moment when he need to do something....
dont be sad most of europian believers are same lames
:D
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Originally posted by Raubvogel
When we finally accept our retarded cousin Canada as a state, we're going to have to do some serious "re-education" of the populace.
You WISH Canada was part of the states! Neener neener neener! :p
And so I think the only hope to bring both sides to discuss again will be the financial catastrophy both - the Israelians and the Palestines - are running into.
The Palestinians economy has already collapsed and the israelian is also near to this point. The war (and also the building and maintainance of this ridiculous wall) are extremely expensive and destroying the israeli economy.
No foreign investor will put in these days money in israeli projects or those in Israel - which is also logical.
This is a neat idea, and I don't think it has been brought up before.
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Its a hint for the rest of the palestinians to think twice what will happen with their family if they blow up themselves.
And no, Israel will not economically collaps. (I wont get into details, I just *know*)
I find it quiet interesting, 8 years Arafat been in power , and to this day he hasnt build any kind of infrastructure.(ie the only jobs available are either as a gunman, or working for the israelis(which isnt really any palestinian infrastructure))
However $5 million was deposit to his wife french bankaccount to make sure she can live like a queen in Paris.
(She sends her regards to the European tax payers!)
Dont forget the Pa also adds 16 % when exchanging the contributions given by Europe and the states to israeli shekel
(they use israeli currency).
so start to calculate how much of the $400 million (or whatever they received this year) goes directly to the PA themselves.
To be honest I think the palestinians had far better options during the occupation than now.
Peter
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You're right Fjod..the US will most likely bail out the Israeli economy when it collapses.
Daff
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Originally posted by Fjoder
And no, Israel will not economically collaps. (I wont get into details, I just *know*)
I find it quiet interesting, 8 years Arafat been in power , and to this day he hasnt build any kind of infrastructure.(ie the only jobs available are either as a gunman, or working for the israelis(which isnt really any palestinian infrastructure))Peter
1st: Collaps of the israeli economy.
Just wait and see. The israeli government had to made first reducements in social welfare because of the economical effects.
And sure - the USA will help Israel as good as possible - but so Israel becomes more and more dependant - liek the old soviet satellite-countries.
2nd: Also the statement of the non-built infrastructure is extremely wrong.
Eurpoe helped with money and logistic to build infrastructural elements in the occupied territies. Police-stations, harbors, an airport hospitals and other government-buildings were built. But these buildings were systematicly destroyed by the israeli forces. They claimed that these were terroristic buildings, where bombs or other criminal things were made.
So - actually only few of these buildings survived, but there is no doubt that they were built.
And also Europe is ready to help the Palestines again if the actually crises will calm down sooner or later under the financial pressure.
The 3rd good news is the fact that both terroristic leaders in this conflict - Arafat and Sharon - are very old men and so maybe nature will take care of it. Then -again maybe - the time will come for capable politicians instead of terroristic fanatics.
They need politicians like Adenauer and deGaulle who were able to ended a decades-lasting hatred between their people.
So lets hope that both sides will have such politicians when the right time comes.
Until this day the boring bombing/revenge/bombing-game will go on...
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Originally posted by babek-
Israel becomes more and more dependant - liek the old soviet satellite-countries.
im from 1 of those country.... man you are a bit wrong
those countries werent depend on CCCP economicaly
they only accepted politic from CCCP
and as our thanks we had to send zillion suplies to CCCP
we never got paid per food, technologi and rest of that stuff
it was called... our thanks or something like that
so if somebody will become dependant it would be USA
btw it seems to me that their Word on international politic scene is weaker and weaker...
and dont forget that EU is making friends in South America
something is cooking :D
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I wasnt refering to USA (or europe) to bail out Israel.
babek, infrastructure is so much more than a policestation or two.
and he had about 6 years to do =SOMETHING= before he started intifada II.
If it werent for the israeli workpermits, no one but the PA themselves would make any money. (making money as in stealing from those who really should have the money in the first place)
And the PA doesnt really need to steal it either, with $1.5 billion on the PLO bankaccounts. Guess they just screwing with their own ppl and blaming it on Israel.
Peter
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So you are saying that the Israeli economy is doing just fine, Fjoder?. I'm sure the Israelis would love to know just how you came to that conclusion:)
Daff
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Israeli economy is a disaster.
where did I write the Israeli economy is doing just fine?
P.
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@fjoder:
You wrote in a mail before that in the 8 years Arafat has been in power " to this day he hasnt build any kind of infrastructure".
This was wrong, because the European nations and also some of the rich arab nations built many buildings and infrastructure in the occupied territories.
Many of these buildings, vehicles and streets have been destroyed by Israeli forces during their counter attacks.
I agree with your statement that there is much corruption, but nevertheless the structures were built (and later destroyed, because Sharon dont want an independent Palestine).
The actual situation is a very bloody indecisive war.
The one side is sending its Kamikaze-Bombers the other one its army.
And many innocents are dying and suffering day by day.
Because both old leaders - Sharon and Arafat - are only stupid fanatical terrorists without the wish to arrange a political solution, this situation is going on.
Although I normally dont hope for the death of a human being, I think it would be the best that nature take this two stupids away, so other politicians could get a chance for a change of the policy.
But until this day the destructions will go on and also the ruin of the israeli economy will go on.
A war is always extremely expensive. Now they are building a wall, which is more than ridiculous, because never in history a wall has worked.
We in Germany knew this, because even the super high-tech wall of the DDR was not able to stop people from East Germany to flee to West Germany.
The palestine terrorist will just modify their tactics but such a wall could not stop them.
Only if there is a political solution which will stop people to join the ranks of the terrorists there will be a chance of peace.
Otherwise they will go on with their killings for the next 100 years.
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Seems to me the only way for Israel to look anything but barbaric while carrying this out would be to proclaim a Palestinian State, then declare war on it. Everything after that would be legally justifyable, especially if they win.
M.E.:confused: M.E.:confused: M.E.:confused:
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"All" they need are capable politicians.
Just look at Germany and France.
We had a long and tragic history where both people were educated to see in the other the enemy. There was even a special geramn word, called the "Erbfeind", which means that this enemy is given from one generation to the other.
But finally very capable and great politicians ended the hate and started a friendship, which has great results today.
And suddenly the people of Germany and France could see how much they could learn from each other and to work together for a new european future.
There are other examples of irrational hate - like the North-Ireland conflict, where in the mane of religion little schoolchildren are threatened by normal people.
The Israel-Palestine-conflict is aclass of its own, because it was allowed that this conflict could escalate to a point where people perform kamikaze operations and others act with military against civilians.
This is very sad, because the victims are in the most cases the innocents.
But as long as the fanatics like Sharon or Arafat are leading them they have to continue their bloody and senseless game of hate...
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Originally posted by babek-
"All" they need are capable politicians.
Just look at Germany and France.
We had a long and tragic history where both people were educated to see in the other the enemy. There was even a special geramn word, called the "Erbfeind", which means that this enemy is given from one generation to the other.
But finally very capable and great politicians ended the hate and started a friendship, which has great results today.
And suddenly the people of Germany and France could see how much they could learn from each other and to work together for a new european future.
There are other examples of irrational hate - like the North-Ireland conflict, where in the mane of religion little schoolchildren are threatened by normal people.
The Israel-Palestine-conflict is aclass of its own, because it was allowed that this conflict could escalate to a point where people perform kamikaze operations and others act with military against civilians.
This is very sad, because the victims are in the most cases the innocents.
But as long as the fanatics like Sharon or Arafat are leading them they have to continue their bloody and senseless game of hate...
Good post. I'm pretty Pro Isrealie but all I see is an endless cycle thats being fed by both sides. Its simply goes to show that to be in a postion of power you dont have to be the brightest bulb in the shed.
xBAT
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I do not think "killing" the entire family, relatives would be and I would be against that extreme.
Eagler
Here you go:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47107-2002Jul22.html
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yes, very sad - some of blame should go to hamas murder who hides among innocents, no?
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Sure Eagler but like BatDog said it's an :
endless cycle thats being fed by both sides
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That was a good post, Babek. The one difference between the situations is that one side was completely broken and both sides lost a couple of generations to war before that atmosphere could arise. Could it have happened otherwise? I dunno, but it would have been more difficult.
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No doubt that the Israeli-Palestine-conflict is more complicated than the French-German-conflict has been.
But after seeing the endless pictures and reports of innocent victims of palestine or israeli terror, I just hope that their fanatic and criminal leaders will soon be replaced by real politicians who are able to negotiate and end this senseless bloodshed.
Actually its more than sad to see the escalations but as an optimist I still have hope that this nonsense will end.
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One thing in this whole mess I don't understand is the utter stupidity of the Palestinian "leaders".
Are they so short sided that they can't see that if they would simply stop the terror bombings they could/would win thier state? World opinion would turn on a dime against Isreal, hell it almost has even with the homicide bombings. Yet they would rather go kill women and children.
I really don't understand that.....
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We have the luxury and the luck to live in normal countries which are not pushed into a circle of hate by inner conflicts.
There are many places in this world where the actions of the conflict parties seem to be totally mad and irrational.
Just tak ethe hate of christians in North Ireland.
And the situation in Israel and palestine is much worse.
The palestine terrorists had used their new tactic of coordinated suicide attacks - killing so many people at this bus station.
And today Israel has fueled the hate by this criminal missile attack, where they killed of wounded more than 100 civilians only to kill one terrorist.
Under such circumstances a logical behavior of the people is very unlikely.
So we - sitting here in our save homes - can judge the situation theoreticly and wish that both sides stop their stupid policy of killing innocents and pray that in a day of the future two politicians act.
But with the terrorist-combo of Sharon-Arafat there will be no chance of peace.
The good thing is that both of these idiots are very old - so maybe nature will solve the problem ;)
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many more wounded....
How many Israeli women and children did this PAL terrorist kill, directly or indirectly? Wound, handicap or injure??
Do you think the US would have bombed an apartment building if they knew 100% certain Bin Laden was in it?
Would you want them to?
I hate to see women and children killed on either side, but it is a war isn't it?
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if only Arafat, Hezbollah and the rest had used the tactics of Ghandi and ML King, instead of killing people eating pizza and competeing in the Olympics, they could have shown Israel a pariah; it would have the international pressure that the apartheid govt of South Africa had, and Palestine would have been in existance for 30 years by now.
It seems that there is a lot of indignation among the Palestinians over the recent missle strike that killed the Hezbollah leader and the innocents with which he surrounded himself.
Perhaps the Israeli army should have had someone walk into a public place and kill people at random. This would have followed the palestinian rules of engagement.
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With peace would come the end of their reign (wartime leaders rarely last in peacetime).
Originally posted by Udie
One thing in this whole mess I don't understand is the utter stupidity of the Palestinian "leaders".
Are they so short sided that they can't see that if they would simply stop the terror bombings they could/would win thier state? World opinion would turn on a dime against Isreal, hell it almost has even with the homicide bombings. Yet they would rather go kill women and children.
I really don't understand that.....
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I turned on MSNBC today and saw a commercial advertising a new show hosted by their editor in chief - Nachman (a jew of course).
After the commercial, the Abrams report came on (yet another jew). He asked the typical question - "Is this killing of Palestinian children just collateral damage and no big deal?"
It's amazing how they've spun this into a defense issue. israel is occupying Palestinian land and I've never heard anyone suggest that their martyr attacks against the zionist imperialists are just 'the cost of war'.
To join the token debate Abrams had a guy named Rosenblum (obvious jew) on one end and one of israel's PR spin doctors, Regev (an outward jew) on the other! Amazingly he never revealed the obvious bias of himself and his hosts! You mean a jew hosting a debate about israel between two other jews slipped unnoticed past you all? It does every day - they feed you opinions and you never even think about their blatant bias.
How about the fact that Ari Fleischer, a jew with dual American/israeli citizenship is the guy who delivered the token finger-wag to israel today?
I am new here but from what I have read I don't expect you daft ignorant masses on this brainwashed blind patriot board to get the connection, but at least try to understand that it isn't slipping past the heads of people around the world.
Now go have a hamburger and try not to think.
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Originally posted by 655321
I turned on MSNBC today and saw a commercial advertising a new show hosted by their editor in chief - Nachman (a jew of course).
After the commercial, the Abrams report came on (yet another jew). He asked the typical question - "Is this killing of Palestinian children just collateral damage and no big deal?"
It's amazing how they've spun this into a defense issue. israel is occupying Palestinian land and I've never heard anyone suggest that their martyr attacks against the zionist imperialists are just 'the cost of war'.
To join the token debate Abrams had a guy named Rosenblum (obvious jew) on one end and one of israel's PR spin doctors, Regev (an outward jew) on the other! Amazingly he never revealed the obvious bias of himself and his hosts! You mean a jew hosting a debate about israel between two other jews slipped unnoticed past you all? It does every day - they feed you opinions and you never even think about their blatant bias.
How about the fact that Ari Fleischer, a jew with dual American/israeli citizenship is the guy who delivered the token finger-wag to israel today?
I am new here but from what I have read I don't expect you daft ignorant masses on this brainwashed blind patriot board to get the connection, but at least try to understand that it isn't slipping past the heads of people around the world.
Now go have a hamburger and try not to think.
wish I could put a swastika on this bobber.
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ahh gee, and hamas says they were "almost ready " to stop killing innocent jew women and children, well maybe next month
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damn, color me blatently politicly correct (as if) but does it seem that mr numbers is a lil anti-semetic?
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Originally posted by Eagler
many more wounded....
How many Israeli women and children did this PAL terrorist kill, directly or indirectly? Wound, handicap or injure??
Do you think the US would have bombed an apartment building if they knew 100% certain Bin Laden was in it?
Would you want them to?
I hate to see women and children killed on either side, but it is a war isn't it?
A six-level appartment-building was totally destroyed.
More than 100 persons - there are also reports speaking of 150 - who were living in this building, were wounded and of 14 killed 9 were children.
2 of the children were babies - one of them only 2 months old.
The fact that a terrorist was killed did not justify this brutal action.
The Israelis attacked to kill a man who coordinated suicide attacks.
Now two simple questions:
1st: How much time will it take for the terrorists to replace this man? 15 minutes ?
2nd: How many people have been fueled with hate so they are willing to perform a kamikaze-operation against innocent israelis because of this attack? And so : How many Israelis will have to die for this massacre ?
You cant shoot with a flamethrower into a crowd of innocent people only becaue one person in this crowd is a known terrorist.
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Are they so short sided that they can't see that if they would simply stop the terror bombings they could/would win thier state? World opinion would turn on a dime against Isreal, hell it almost has even with the homicide bombings. Yet they would rather go kill women and children.
I really don't understand that.....
How can you not understand that when it's been repeatedly stated that the goal of the bombers is not primarily a Palestinian state, but primarily the destruction of Israel?
A Palestinian state with Israel still in the region is the LAST thing the bombers want. Why is that so hard to understand?
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Originally posted by Eagler
many more wounded....
How many Israeli women and children did this PAL terrorist kill, directly or indirectly? Wound, handicap or injure??
Do you think the US would have bombed an apartment building if they knew 100% certain Bin Laden was in it?
Would you want them to?
I hate to see women and children killed on either side, but it is a war isn't it?
Eagler, that logic causes massacres like Me Lai or what happened in Serbia... or what just happened in Gaza City. Even in wars we have rules, and the one option a soldier has is to respectfully disobey a direct order which he/she deems illegal, and that covers the execution of non-combantants.
How much better are we than the Nazis who exterminated so many in ww2 if we're willing to accept the targeting of civilians as military targets? I understand the importance of getting this guy, but 100 casualties? The Israelis better hope they don't lose this war and have to stand trial for warcrimes, because we hung a hell of a lot of Germans after WW2 for doing alot less.
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because we hung a hell of a lot of Germans after WW2 for doing alot less.
We missed one!!
(http://www.laahs.com/images/art00_3.jpg)
Kurt Tank in Argentina, circa 1947
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This is going to be a long thread.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
We missed one!!
(http://www.laahs.com/images/art00_3.jpg)
Kurt Tank in Argentina, circa 1947
Kurt Tank IS gay!
WTH is that crotch strap S&M thing he's wearing??
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I been tellin yas.. he INVENTED gay!
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hey, I was just asking ...
whole dam thing is nothing but hate, seems to be what makes the world go round nowadays... :(
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Sorry Eagler, civilian casulties are part of war. I agree with you that it's one huge mess that gets scarier every day.
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Cry me a river babek.
IDF doesnt target civilians, never had never will.
If you however do a saddam - hiding behind civilians, there will be civilian casualties. no doubt about it. Is it right? well in this case its a small price to pay for getting rid of the top hamas military guy personally responsible for the death of many many many israeli civilian women, children and men.
Does it justify the killing of palestinian civilians, well no it doesnt.
but if the little maggots stopped hiding behind civilians (which isnt allowed according to the Geneve convention 4th paragraph)
Less civilians would get hurt.
Just take the Jenin incident, instead of bombing the toejam out of the jenin refugee camp, they went in with troops and took heavy losses. go figure why.
btw Sharon is no terrorist, I dont understand where you get your info?.
Peter
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The weasel arafat gets what he wants by this.
HE refuses to deal with terorrist. forcing Israel to take a stand
By eliminating the opposive groups to Arafat, Arafat will gain more adn more control of his lawless soon-to-be-palestine.
He cant eliminate the hamas or the Islamic Jihad groups, it would be bad PR for him, so he lets Israel do the dirty work for him.
IDF should take out arafat too.
P.
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Originally posted by Fjoder
Cry me a river babek.
IDF doesnt target civilians, never had never will.
Israel wanted to kill a terrorist leader. Thats OK.
But they fired a missile in a six-level-civilian-building full of innocent civilians. Thats what I call a terroristic act.
The IDF accepted the death and harm of these civilians in order to get this one terrorist.
And so you are definitivly wrong: The IDF HAS targeted civilians and so it was logical that 150 people were killed or injured.
All the nations worldwide condemned this brutal act and it was really a shame.
Especially if you consider the fact that these "leaders" will be replaced in very short time and now the terrorists have no problems to get new people for kamikaze-operations.
Then about your question who defined Sharon as a terrorist.
There are countries in Europe, where Sharon has been defined as a war-criminal who performed terroristic acts.
For example Belgium.
And I agree with this definition.
Is really a pity that the great israeli politician Rabin was murdered. Maybe with him as a great and charismatic personality the conflict would have been settled.
But so - the terror on both sides will continue and the price will be payed by the innocents.
PS: What means "Cry me a river" ?
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Well for you news, The Belgium warcourt (whatever its called)aquitted Sharon of all accusations against him.
Arafat must be the only leader accepting a nobel peaceaward in a military uniform says it all.
Rabins assassination was very unfortune, and I hope the killer rottens in hell for his act.
However Barak succeeded Rabin, and went even further with his peaceplans than Rabin could ever imagine.
But you can never make deals with a weasel, barak failed, and Arafat started intifada II. Barak was succeeded by Sharon to deal with the intifada II and the suicide bombers.
Have in mind - There IS NO PEACETREATY between the israelis and the palestines, meaning its a war going on.
The palestines have not sign one single international convention.
Israel has, it means Israel have a right to defend themselves in any manners to protect their civilians (UN §51). They can even occupy the westbank/gaza with support from the 4th Geneve convention.
Peter
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But you can never make deals with a weasel, barak failed, and Arafat started intifada II. Barak was succeeded by Sharon to deal with the intifada II and the suicide bombers.
it's not my interpretation ... IMO Sharon started (or re started) all during his campaign to be prime minister ...
When he visited a mosqué in Jerusalem (sorry forgot the name)
Have in mind - There IS NO PEACETREATY between the israelis and the palestines, meaning its a war going on.
There is no war declared either ...
The palestines have not sign one single international convention.
Israel has, it means Israel have a right to defend themselves in any manners to protect their civilians (UN §51). They can even occupy the westbank/gaza with support from the 4th Geneve convention.
As Isreal deny the right of having a state for the Palestinian how can they sign any treaty when not being recognized as a state ?
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Straffo:
1st.
No the walk on the holy mountain had very little to do with it.
It was just a poor excuse, the intifada II was to start regardless of the walk.
2nd
Well , yes and no, you have two kinds of "wars".
1. direct war.
2. state of war. (? krigstillstånd - any nordic know a better word)
In the current crises we have #2.
Since the westbank/gaza are nomansland, it gets very complicated, (Egypt and Jordan gave up these areas, and Israel never claimed them). but we still have a state of war.
Since the palestinians havent signed any international conventions therefor they have no right according to any law
to protect themselves. domestic laws doesnt apply.
3rd.
Well they have signed alot of treaties.
http://www.ariga.com/treaties/index.htm
but Arafat keeps breaking these.
If he hadnt there would be a palestinian state by now.
Peter
I will explain the "state of war" more in details later this week.
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"Well for you news, The Belgium warcourt (whatever its called)aquitted Sharon of all accusations against him. "
Yeah, due to a technicality. He will most likely be tried once he's no longer PM of Israel.
Hamas steps up and says they're ready to stop bombing, if the IDF pulls out of the West Bank and what does Sharon do?
He bombs a civilian target, killing nine children and calls it a 'great success'.
He's just as bad as terrorists.
Daff
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sorry, I wouldn't believe this for a sec. They said it because they knew Israel could not and would not pull out.
The hammer just gets bigger, on both sides but Israel's hanmmers are much bigger. You'd think the Pals would have figured that out by now.
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Daff, you need to stop reading the leftwing newspapers:)
Sharon said the killing of the hamas leader was a great success.
however he regrets the civilian casualties. (see full quote on jpost.com or haaretz.com)
He wont get prosecuted even after his mandate.
Besides Israel hasnt ratified the ICC so warcrimes made by Israelis is beyond EU or any other country in the worlds jurisdiction.
Peter
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Even the right wing papers here are condemming the attack, Fjod.
But...do you really think an attack like this is going to help?..if anything it's just going to help the palestinians justify their attacks.
Daff
P.S. Why are you still in Europe, btw?.
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Originally posted by Fjoder
Straffo:
1st.
No the walk on the holy mountain had very little to do with it.
It was just a poor excuse, the intifada II was to start regardless of the walk.
I agree but is as given the palestian oportunity ... it was not a smart move (and I don't think that Sharon is an idiot not knowning what he was about to start)
2nd
Well , yes and no, you have two kinds of "wars".
1. direct war.
2. state of war. (? krigstillstånd - any nordic know a better word)
In the current crises we have #2.
Since the westbank/gaza are nomansland, it gets very complicated, (Egypt and Jordan gave up these areas, and Israel never claimed them). but we still have a state of war.
sure
Since the palestinians havent signed any international conventions therefor they have no right according to any law
to protect themselves. domestic laws doesnt apply.
so what is their current status ?
canon fodder ?
3rd.
Well they have signed alot of treaties.
http://www.ariga.com/treaties/index.htm
yep ...
but Arafat keeps breaking these.
no just Arafat ... the Hamas broke it to ...
The PLO is constitued of different movement each having their own vision ...
If he hadnt there would be a palestinian state by now.
not likely it will annoy to many people (Israely ,Jordanian etc ...)
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Israel has no other choice.
160 attacks or attempted attacks / week.
If it was against britain or denmark you would see a fullscale war.
Just look what spain did when marocco "captured" a pathetic stone(soccerfield large) outside their coast.
I think Israel is maybe restraining themselves to much due to the critisism in europe.
Peter
Why havent you moved to Cuba?
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Why should I?..I'm not the one complaining about the area I live in.
Daff
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Cant say it wasnt provocative Staffo, but it really didnt matter.
regarding "state of war"
F.i there is still a state of war between Britain and Argentina.
(Peace treaties have never been signed)
As I said due to Jordan and Egypt giving up the ter. and Israel not claiming them, the palestinians are in a hopeless situation (if you look at it from a lawyers perspective)
I think Egypt and Jordan should do more than they do right now.
There are laws to follow during wartime and occupation, the palestinians should try and follow those. If following these laws, Israel cant do much, and would force a peace treaty to be signed
and a new country to become.
Hamas isnt incharge of "palestine", Arafat is, with the largest policeforce per capita in the world you would think he could do more than he done aye?
He needs to crack down on all terrorists. fatah,Islamic jihad and hamas.
I cant speak for the jordans (remember black september in 1972)
but the majority of the israelis do want peace and a palestine.
Peter
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I mostly agree with you Peter
I just wanted to point that some palestinian have another agenda than Arafat for exemple the Hamas I don't think that Arafat has lot of control on Hamas guys ...
I don't see a political solution possible currently just because there is no (like Babek said previously) Adenauer or de Gaulle in middle-east ...
By saying that Arafat is a terrorist the Isrealy forgive that their prime minister was a terrorist too (at least for the brit).
And the current "competition" between IDF and suicide bomber is going nowhere ...
but the majority of the israelis do want peace and a palestine.
I believe so ... but the settlement are the way to go ...