Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Tumor on July 19, 2002, 11:24:59 PM
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"COMBAT THEATER"?
Thought I'd submit my .02, can't hurt.
I used the term whiner (:D) to get attention (seem's to work real good around here (see following post by AKDejavu)). No offense intended (really I swear) to anyone, however....
Rather than squeak moan and complain (I've done it too, just wanted to clarify so I don't hurt anyones feelings... daddy Deja is watching don't you know!) about furballers, gangbangers, perk motivated side-switchers, game the gamers, maps and other things that make YOUR game (in the MA) such a drag, why not try clicking the "CT" arena?
All two or three times I've flown the CT, I've had fun, pure and simple. More fun overall than the larger percentage of all the time I've got in the MA. The overall atmosphere is better, and thats the number one reason I've decided to go there first from now on. It's an easy thing to try... just a click, hey you don't even have to stay, however my bet is you WILL. Why?... here's what you get.
1. A much more cordial atmosphere
2. People switching sides to EVEN the sides, not the opposite.
3. A sense of realism (the Arena managers do a great job).
4. An attempt at Teamwork.
5. No suprises. You know what your up against.
The numbers aren't all that great. BUT... If most folks who "wish for something better" would simply go to the CT and fly for 20 or 30 minutes, I'll bet those number's will grow significantly.
You have a limited planeset. That can be a drag if your committed for a particular aircraft(s). Can't really comment on that other than saying it hasn't been an issue "for me".
The easy solution to allot of the complaining about the MA I see on this BB has been stareing us in the face for months.
Just try it out. Better yet, grab a buddy in the MA and try it. Can't hurt anything and who knows, maybe there can be hope for the CT!
Tumor
:D :) :D :) This is an attempt to promote use of the CT, this is not an attempt to draw fire or hurt any ego's.
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So you thought it would be a good idea to call "recruits" whiners?
Yeppers... almost makes you wonder why the room isn't full all the time.
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current CT planeset brings out the whine in me
SKurj
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu
So you thought it would be a good idea to call "recruits" whiners?
Yeppers... almost makes you wonder why the room isn't full all the time.
Read the post. Nothing negative about it, yet you however have to come along and are quite honestly true to form. Troll elswhere please.
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Originally posted by SKurj
current CT planeset brings out the whine in me
SKurj
Yup I have entered CT and seen...
None of the new planes. :rolleyes:
Scooted out really fast so as the door didnt hurt me.
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Yes, sure I can say "Combat Theatre". I can also say "Empty Arena". Perhaps this is what Funked meant by single player therapy.
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:rolleyes:
Yet another shameless plug for L'Arene Vide.
How long has this experiment gone on? Yet it is rare that the population there exceeds 5-10% of the MA at any given time.
Got to be a reason for this and I'm not buying "nobody knows about it" or "it needs a better name".
The "true believers" got their own private sandbox. One of the smartest things HTC has done IMO. Instantly oiled about 10 hot bearings there, made the General Discussion a much more peaceful place and provided a distinct and separate forum for the new religion. Problem is that the church is WAY to big for the actual number of faithful.
Yet, like true missionaries, the faithful are sure they know the one true path and can't consider that the vast majority of the population doesn't share their vision. Thus the continuous proselytizing.
I'm waiting for the post here in General Discussion that announces a return to "normal" icons and radar in the CT. Then I'll be there. There have been some nice planesets and setups. If they ever get played the way the game was designed to be played....... :D
Amen, brothers.
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Originally posted by Tumor
Read the post. Nothing negative about it, yet you however have to come along and are quite honestly true to form. Troll elswhere please.
Read the title.. was enough. You come through true to form too.
Nice addition of a smiley face there.
Even if joking... the "whiners belong in the CT" title is quite fitting.
AKDejaVu
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Deja please... take it somewhere else. I did not intend for this to be a flamefest and I certainly will not continue with your childish game.. k?
...geez I knew there was a reason I had you on the ignore list.
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actually, the thread title is alittle off-putting, even if you meant it as a jest.
anyway, i've been thinking my squad might like to take a turn in the CT. i spent an evening there a few months ago, back when i was new and solo. it was a nice change from the frantic MA. but now i've got a few old die hard C-Hawks pilots that might like a spin.
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LOL TUMOR!
OK... its all me.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by KG45
anyway, i've been thinking my squad might like to take a turn in the CT. i spent an evening there a few months ago, back when i was new and solo. it was a nice change from the frantic MA. but now i've got a few old die hard C-Hawks pilots that might like a spin.
Cool, I've already started workin on my squad :D. They will, can't promise they'll stay though lol. I'd guess the the more people there at any given time would serve to draw even more. When I logged on to AH the other day and noticed there more more than the average there, I figured I'd try. Numbers doubled in no time. Figure if a few folks nudge some squaddies and do it regular for awhile maybe people will notice and it will get better. May as well try eh?
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I am THRILLED that the CT consistently has 10% of the MA population. That is 30-40 users at peak, and in a set-up like the CT, plenty of pilots for some great action.
I come from the neighbour's, where the Historical Arena is ALWAYS empty. Without the CT and the events, I really would have no reason to be in AH.
come into the CT one time, look for an 880 Fleet Air Arm guy. We'll wing you and we'll have some fun.
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Toad:
Hehe, very witty summary on the CT. I agree with you 100%!
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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disable icons for nme aircraft, and reduce friendly icon range to 170 yards. then maximum player numbers will have to be increased in the ct...
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What Toad said.
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I was in the CT a few night s back. Had ALL of the attributes you claim to exist in the MA.
Just lacked about 300 players I guess.
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Whelp.. in the never ending quest for truth, and the avowed CT's penchant for experimentation..
..why not set up MA type icons and radar as Toad suggests.
As a test of course.
:D
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Jeeezzzzzzzzzzzzz Hang!
Because that wouldn't be REAL of course!
After all, think about it. When u get so close to another aircraft in AH that you can count the rivets on the tailplane artwork... THAT's when you need icons.
Not when you're 4k out and you'd normally be seeing lots of detail and good visual cues but you just can't with today's computer technology... you sure wouldn't want icons to substitute for what you'd normally be able to see, right?
Got it now?
:rolleyes:
Sooner or later the rest of us unwashed will see the brilliance of Brother Jim Jones' vision if we'd just drop into the People's Temple........ say, would you like something to drink? :D
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Toad,
It is exactly the reverse of what you just said. When you are close enough to count rivets is precisely when there shouldn't be icons. If there was an icon setting for minimum icon distance, ie if you could have icons starting at say 1k, out until about 5k, then I would be happy. I would use them. But icons in close completely alter the nature of the fight by making it virtually impossible to lose a con or to disengage. Until that setting is available, I prefer using no icons at all. Anyway, with access to radar info in-flight, who needs icons?
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Miska, its called sarcasm. You are stating what toad implied through sarcastic tones.
If you don't quite get his sarcasm, do a search of the gameplay forum using his ID and "visual range" in the search parameter.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by Miska
Toad,
It is exactly the reverse of what you just said. When you are close enough to count rivets is precisely when there shouldn't be icons
EXACTLY Miska. I TOTALLY agree and have said so many, many times. Deja is right; I was being sarcastic. I apologize but this "icon thing" is one of the few things that is so misunderstood by folks that have never chased another airplane through the sky that it sometimes brings out the worst in me. Again, I apologize.
We BOTH agree you don't need icons when you are in basic max shooting range... 1000 yds, 800 yds, 600 yds.. whatever.
Here's where you and I differ however. I DO think some sort of visual aid is necessary at ranges where current computer, video and gaming technologies do not provide "visual cues" that are at least REASONABLY close to what one would see in Real Life (Tm).
The game doesn't allow us to have "distant" icons and then having the icons disappear when you get close. It's not in the programming. HT and I have chatted about this and we agreed to disagree.. with no hard feelings on either side because we both know it's still a GREAT game.
In fact, the game is set up the OTHER way. You can turn off distant icons and still have close icons or you can have no icons at all.
So, you apparently feel that having "no icons" or "no distant icons but close icons" is "better" or "more realistic" or "more immersive" or whatever than having MA style icons.
I feel the need for distant visual cues is great enough that I'd rather have MA style icons to get those visual cues at ranges where I'd normally be seeing things in RL (Tm).
I think that turning off distant icons is obviously counter-intuitive; THAT is the info we need that we CAN'T get from today's technology.
It's the CLOSE icons that need turning off. Who needs close-in icons when the technology gives you sufficient visual cues for shooting?
But the game does not have that option. So, in order to get the info that the technology can't give me, I'll take distant icons. If I have to have close icons to get the distant ones, so be it. I don't shoot at the icons when I'm in range anyway.. I use the current technology artwork/display visual cues to line up my shot. So, I'll use the distant ones to plan my attack or defense and I'll ignore close icons when it comes time to shoot.
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Lest you think I haven't given much thought to the icon issue, here's a post of mine from nearly 3 years ago.
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"If we're going to actually try a few different means of IFF instead of this 10 year old system, I'd be really happy.
Here's a few points to ponder. These thoughts are based on a non-historical arena, where all sides fly all planes. Strict Historical could/should be different.
Ranges would have to be hashed out but that's an area that affords easy experimentaion once the overall system is set.
1. At long range, a plane dot whether friend or foe, fighter or bomber dot should just be an unknown dot.
2. As range closes, one would be able to distinguish a dot as a bomber earlier than a fighter. Therefore, some sort of "buff" ID should show at a range that would still be a dot for a fighter. At this range you couldn't tell friend from foe.
This means a dot could be either a long range plane of either type or a closer fighter that is not yet distinguishable. You just couldn't tell.
3. As range further decreased, a fighter ID should show. You should also now be able to tell, in some way, friend from foe, perhaps just a red dot at nose, tail and wingtips. This assumes that we would in Real Life be distinguishing plane type. Again, this would be a different range for a bomber than a fighter.
4. Now, after IFF range, add distance information. Range info should perhaps only be shown in 1k or .5k increments to avoid the rapidly running counters. I would not show range beyond a certain distance, a yet to be determined "threat" range, and I would remove it as the aircraft comes to "guns range." Perhaps cut out range info inside of 1k or .5k at minimum. You need IFF here, but you don't need range when you're ready to shoot. That should be part of pilot skills and judgement.
5. I would have no aircraft type ID available at ranges that allow you to distinugish that info from the graphics. (determined for the lowest resolution avail). I would allow some simple "type" info at ranges where you could see it in real life.
Different colored dots, arrows, numbers...any of these could be used to provide this type of information while minimizing and shrinking the huge icons we now have.
Just some thoughts. I'm sure everyone has some ideas and I'd love to read them. I hope we can get a meaningful discussion going and I also hope we can talk HTC into experimenting in the SEA with "alternative Icon lifestyles"."
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Originally posted by Toad
Yet, like true missionaries, the faithful are sure they know the one true path.
Thats a bit presumptuous of you don't you think?
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I'm never the one saying "we have plenty of people in the CT. It's perfect with only ten players" one minute and then posting in General Discussion asking people to give it a try because it would be better with more players.
I was also here when the CT idea was first raised and the pleading was in full cry. I also read the statements made by some folks in the CT forum and here in General Discussion when the CT was authorized. I don't really think I'm being presumptuous given what I've read.
Note that I don't attribute these notions, thoughts, statements or viewpoints to any one person.
Rather it's merely my perception of what I see continually posted here in General Discussion.
Perceptions, like mileage, may vary.
Yes, I know. I'm totally mistaken and I'm sorry I posted this and apolgize profusely in advance.
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For what it's worth... I am simply making a suggestion. A simple suggestion, to those not satisfied with the MA, nothing more. Why? Because the same "complaints" are made again and again about the MA... complaints (or suggestions) that are obviously not going to change anything.
It's just an idea.... and a request sent to players. That being, if you don't like the MA, why not try the CT.. and perhaps help build the numbers there.
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I think everyone should try CT for a time.
I think everyone should try a "Tour of Duty" at least once.
I think everyone should try a scenario at least once.
Some may prefer the CT, some the MA. Some may wait and only fly scenarios. Some may do a bit of all three. Any of those decisions are perfectly valid in my opinion. But no matter what the decision, it should be an informed one. And you won't know unless you've tried it.
That being said, I don't think the CT's numbers have anything to do with people not knowing about it. But I don't begrudge them a little advertising on the bbs anymore than I do people announcing an upcoming "Tour of Duty" or scenario.
I think a lot of us should be a little less partisan and think about how fortunate we are to have so many interesting choices.
Regards,
Wab
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If I ever get back to a normal daylight work schedule, I'll NEVER miss a TOD, or snapshot... or scenario!
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I agree with everything Toad has posted in here.
The only difference is that I occassionally fly in the CT.
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Toad, I see what you are saying. Sorry for missing out on the sarcasm, I am new on this side of the fence :)
I don't see why HTC won't consider putting another setting in the "F2 rotation". Like the friendly only and no icons settings, it would be purely voluntary, and can only please some players, not displease others. So why not do it :confused:
I still disagree with you in the sense that I would rather have no icons than take the close with the long. After a few weeks, I have found that although I don't have "long info" about plane type (which clearly I should), I very rarely am wrong about IFF, even at very long ranges. With dot behaviour and Dar, I have all I need. Besides, it forces me to fly more conservatively, treating all dots as enemy until I get more information. That is a feature of all contemporary first hand accounts of which I am aware. And the in-close benefits are so great that they easily outweigh any long range disadvantages.
In summary, I see what you are saying, and I agree with most of what you say.
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I agree with toad.. HTC came up with a good one when they put most of the worst gameplay destroyers in one sandbox to fight with each other. There are no good plane sets in that arena other than the Battle of Britan. They should run the BOB for a couple months straight to maybe sucker a few more people in there.
Now if we could just keep out the CT adds in here. Or... maybe they could advertisze in the other sims board?
lazs
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Laz
If you ever have anything good to say about anything other than mindless autocybereroticselfmanipulati on as an end goal to your endevours in AH... I'll care. :) But I still think your cute. :D
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CT MA its all the same game.Who gives a rats bellybutton where comments are posted about it. Several of my squadies and myself fly in there now and then.Its a fun arena and if it kept around 15 to 20 a side iy would be even more fun.Varity is a great thing and HT gave us that.All the planes might not be in there and theres no big advantage that some in the MA prefer but when you pay the fee to play thats your option.Close plane sets seperate the men from the boys.If perks carried over you would probebly see more MA pilots in CT.Simply cause thats the only reason some fly.
The CT is a great idea but unfortunatly thers rarely enough in ther to make it work and that keeps alot of people from trying it more often.
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Yer right DrDea. Why even have separate forums? Let's just wipe them all and have one big forum. That'll make it easy to separate the wheat from the chaff. :D
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Toad has pretty much hammered all the issues I have with the CT.
On one hand, folks who create/manage/promote the CT claim this big dislike for the Main Arena. They are happy as can be with an arena with 10-20 people flying, as they've said. Then we see the occasional "COME AND FLY THE COMBAT THEATER" in the Channel 1 buffer in the Main Area.
So, they despise the Main, yet try to gain more players fishing in it. But don't they hate the Main? And wasn't fewer players what they wanted?
I guess my question is, which is it? What do they want? Players?
I've flown the CT a handful of times. Did I have fun, sure! Do I like it more than the Main? Not really...I like the larger arena, more players, etc etc.
So, we go through this cycle of New Version = Disgruntled Players who liked the old way = Let's re-promote the largely-vacant-Comabt Theater! :rolleyes:
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personely I prefer the MA.I do like the limited plane set tho in CT.The big problem with CT is its just not catching on.If every time you go there and theres only 3 or 4 people flying your not going to see major base taking but in the same situation you WILL see some really good dog fights.A few more
's too I would wager.If ya havnt tried it give it a shot.If ya have and dont like it thats fine too.Everything isnt for everybody.
Doc
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Increase TC plane set for each historical period, add a naval component, then close MA for 2 weeks and see what happens to TC.
Die-hard arcaders will return to MA, those who want something more will remain in TC.
Try it.
- Dave
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No, you will just see subscription rates drop off dramatically for 2 weeks.
-SW
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Wrong SW.
Players would adapt..as they did with the Pizza.
Players look for one thing more than anything else....other players to fight. It doesn't matter where they are, that is what attracts other players.
For CT to become viable it initially needs more players. Just read the posts. That is the number one refrain about TC.
- Dave
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Now they'll whine about the CT.
I see your point Tumor. Good thread.
Masher
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The MA is still the MA, the only thing that changed was the map... it became bigger.. and looked different.
Big whoopty change there.
The CT, OTOH, has short icons, 2 countries fighting, "realistic" plane set, etc.
It might be fun for those who like that sorta thing, but for those who don't... then they'll just leave.
For CT to become viable it initially needs more players. Just read the posts.
True, but you know why it needs more players? Cuz most people don't WANT to play there. You can force 'em as much as you like, but I guarantee you, you close the MA for 2 weeks and you won't see anywhere near 450players in the CT during those 2 weeks.
-SW
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Disagree SW.
Try it and see.
If MA is the greater-than-CT venue you perceive it to be then you have nothing to fear. All will return to normal after the trial.
Perhaps your greatest fear is that the MA won't be the gangbang vulch arena it is now after such a trial. After all, if enough players decide to frequent CT, then the number of easy targets in MA will also diminish, no?
Is that what MA is to you, the happy arcade-furball-gangbang-vulch hunting ground? CT has potential for players who have outgrown the mindless arcade (MA). All it needs is a chance.
Denying TC its chance is forcing those who would prefer the experience offered there to play in the MA.
Give TC a chance...
- Dave
P.S. I'm going to get you to 4000 today SW.... ;)
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Originally posted by LePaul
So, they despise the Main, yet try to gain more players fishing in it. But don't they hate the Main? And wasn't fewer players what they wanted?
Your stereotyping :rolleyes:
I like'em both, allot... thats which it is. I've seen plenty of people in both places.
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Try it and see.
I have flown the CT... or do you mean shutting down the MA? I just can't see HT doing that, he knows it wouldn't be wise.
If MA is the greater-than-CT venue you perceive it to be then you have nothing to fear. All will return to normal after the trial.
If it wasn't the greater-than-CT venue, then it wouldn't be over loaded with players while the CT sits in the corner with it's limited player base. With all the people complaining about warps and invisible planes, and the reports of it NOT happening in the CT, why didn't more players go into the CT?
haps your greatest fear is that the MA won't be the gangbang vulch arena it is now after such a trial. After all, if enough players decide to frequent CT, then the number of easy targets in MA will also diminish, no?
I have no fears. You are assuming I do because I am proposing an argument to your idea. Maybe it ain't the problem of where players choose to play, but the fact that many players will probably simply choose to not play at all. A bad business decision, is a bad business decision.
Is that what MA is to you, the happy arcade-furball-gangbang-vulch hunting ground? CT has potential for players who have outgrown the mindless arcade (MA). All it needs is a chance.
It's had a chance.. it's been sitting there for months now. The CT team has done all it can, but the simply fact is.. people CHOOSE the MA over the CT, they aren't forced to fly there.
Denying TC its chance is forcing those who would prefer the experience offered there to play in the MA.
Like I said, the option is there.. it's obvious no one is being forced to play in the MA, they choose it over the "CT experience".. simple as that.
P.S. I'm going to get you to 4000 today SW.... ;)
Not likely, if you do, I'll sue you for giving me carpal tunnel... :)
-SW
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I tried CT for a week.
It gets boring killing the same guys over and overy again.
When the jets and perk US planes are in the arena then it really gets stupid.
The elitist attitude of some of the people in there is delusional - they are nothing special.
Been there, done that.
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I remember a few months back when the MA went down for about an hour or so, everyone went to the TA not the CT, I'm guessing because of the planeset.
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Disable the icons completely. Disable them!
Maybe friendly id inside 100 yards.
In WB3 the MA was empty when that happend, 8 or 9 month ago.
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Originally posted by StracCop
Is that what MA is to you, the happy arcade-furball-gangbang-vulch hunting ground? CT has potential for players who have outgrown the mindless arcade (MA). All it needs is a chance.
Originally posted by MoonJuiceThe elitist attitude of some of the people in there is delusional - they are nothing special.
There ya go. MoonJuice is not alone in his assessment. Told yas. :D
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I should spend almost all my time in CT if there are people. I still wonder why the CT is so little populated. Perhaps it`s time to bring something new into CT. How about a little different format than it is now. How about to make it a regulal historic WWII arena with the map divided into two "theathers" e.g. left side of map should represent European area and right side the Pacific area, both with appropriate plane set. It would need some new, non historic bigger map but I think it is worth to try it. Also how about to introduce the rolling plane set into CT? I think the people who like mixed/all plane set available at any time aren`t interested in CT anyway.
czpetr
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I wonder too why it hasn't caught on more. Last Sunday during primetime CST, there were 441 in the MA and 8 in the CT.
For as many different opinions and preferences are expressed on this BB, it's hard to believe the community is so overwhelming singleminded in its preference of flying in the MA over the CT. I thought there would be many more mavericks and rogues than that who would seed the CT. Warbirds, with less than half the population online of AH, put 5-6 times as many flyers into it's HA regularly. The CT seems to "click" on VF-27's squad nights (Tues/Thu 9 pm CST) but any other time its likely to be single digits.
For the record though, the idea of shutting down the MA and forcing everyone to fly in the CT for a week would be foolishness, on par with Coca Cola's decision to change it's formula. It was a marketing fiasco for Coke, and so would an MA lockout be for HTC.
I don't think the CTs limited/short icons make much of a difference at all from the MA's full icons. The CT has inflight dot radar, so whether or not I can see the icon, 80-90% of the time I already know whether an aircraft is enemy by a quick clipboard check. Short icons present more tactical opportunites for disadvantaged planes, but I'd be willing to give that up to consistently draw 10% of the MA's population to the CT if that's what it took. I can't imagine the icon issue keeping a player from flying in the CT.
The CT regulars are not an elitist bunch. They're a small group, and channel 1 tends to be more much more friendly than the MA, but in no way are they snobs. Its just a group of people seeking the higher level of immersion found with an historically accurate axis/allied planeset on a historical terrain.
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tumor... I would say "take it to the Ct forum" but that is like making you stand in the corner with your nose to the wall... No, more like solitary confinement.
lazs
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cc that. Tuesdays also happens to be 880 Fleet Air Arm squad night. So in combination with VF27 and 27th Sentai, we end up with a "critical mass" in there. Then a bunch of other people are willing to come in. On Thursdays, most of 880 end up there anyway :)
After reading this thread over the past couple of days, I tried the MA again last night. A bunch of 880 joined me there. I have to say, I just don't enjoy it.
If putting MA icons in the CT will make a difference, do it! Individual players have options like friendly icons only and no icons. So that's no problem to me.
Cya tonight!
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Toad,
Yer GameBoy is callin' ya!
:D
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My, my.. what an elitist comment.