Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: NUKE on July 20, 2002, 01:37:40 AM
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What is the point of "killshooter" anyway?
I mean, either you go realism and make friendly fire cause damage to any target, or you go "game-play" and friendly fire causes no damage.
Why the hell would friendly fire cause damage the object doing the fireing? Seems to be against both realism and fairness combined.
Killshooter creates an opening for teammates to fly in front of you and perhapse steal your kill.
Just make friendly fire have no effect....what would be wrong with that?
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Originally posted by NUKE
Just make friendly fire have no effect....what would be wrong with that?
Lots. And I bet your kills would be stolen even more if this were implemented.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Lots. And I bet your kills would be stolen even more if this were implemented.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Name some reasons please. I'm curious. Thanks.
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edit- Was thinking no killshooter at all on initial post. I assume 1 reason for "no effect" would be you could just spray away through a guy in front of you to "steal" kills.
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Killshooter is an excellent idea. It's friendly fire, without the teamkillers. Friendly fire should exist, however, in a traditional form it can't in an online game. Every system for dealing with teamkilling doesnt work. Killshooter does.
That said, Killshooter in AH is kind of broken. It should do to you the same amount of damage you inflict, not quadruple or whatever it does now.
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Killshooter creates a more realistic combat environment. Not in its effect on individual aircraft, but rather in the behavior of fighters in the macro environment. It makes it so that you don't fire through friendlies. Without killshooter people would just blaze away regardless of who was in front of them, and that resembles WWII air combat far less than does killshooter.
(I killshootered myself in a Spitfire Mk I last night.)
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Originally posted by XNachoX
Name some reasons please. I'm curious. Thanks.
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If shooting friendlies had no effect, you'd have a lot of spray 'n pray by guys behind the closest friendly as they try to get a hit or two or three in. Imagine a friendly 110G2 spraying like mad behind you as you de-wing an enemy plane... and the 110 gets the kill because he manages to land two 30mm into the enemy with impunity while shooting over your shoulder.
So what you're basically doing is trading one gamey thing for another. Instead of facing the possibility of guys flying in front of your guns and "stealing" the kill by causing you to killshooter yourself, you'll have people spraying like mad to steal it from behind instead. The current system at least punishes such dweebery and generally forces more realistic tactics.
If you disable killshooter entirely, I'd just shoot you out of the way and then steal your kill.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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You make it sound like everyone in AH is out to get your kill :). Anyways. The killshooter needs to be changed or taken out completely. This BS that it does 4x damage as someone above said needs to be fixed. Maybe 1/2 of the actual damage which would make it fair to both parties. I don't see the point of having a broken killshooter in a small arena where you fight in large, uncontrolled dogfights.
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IMO, killshooter could be recoded to inflict zero damage, just like if you strafe a friendly hangar or other object.
All you would do is waste bullets/shells, with no damage to either your countryman or the enemy.
Is that what you were thinking about too, NUKE?
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Originally posted by NUKE
Just make friendly fire have no effect....what would be wrong with that?
As others have said, it would then be possible to steal kills from behind a friendly.... In AW, we had a similar system to Killshooter, Anti-frag, but as far as I remember it never worked properly - it was supposed to cause damage to the person shooting. During the time I played at least, it seemed shooting at friendlies had no effect at all - if anything, I found it amusing to watch someone, from the tail-gun of a B17, coming up on our 6 o'clock spraying like mad! I would try to tell them on channel 2 that they were wasting their ammo, and to go and kill some enemies instead. :)
I recently had a few vehicle sorties where I seemed to die very quickly whenever I went to a remote spawn point.... there was what appeared to be an enemy vehicle parked right next to it and I was determined to get it, firing as soon as I spawned.... It was only after doing this several times, and getting shot down, that it dawned on me that I had somehow inadvertently set "no icons" and that I was in fact Killshootering myself! :D
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Consider killshooter remorse for hitting a friendly.
F.
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Originally posted by XNachoX
You make it sound like everyone in AH is out to get your kill :).
Not at all. I'm addressing Nuke's original point, and he seemed quite frustrated at people "stealing" his kills. As far as I'm concerned, if the fight is at a point where killshooter may become a factor, then "stealing" isn't even in the cards.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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killshooter is the only real punishment to someone spraying and praying over your shoulder.
Folks already spray like mad already ready atleast I can fly into there bullet stream to kill umm.
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back in the olden days... Mac AW
if ya fragged a friendly 3 times you lost your ammo for 24 hours.
only happened to me once in 3 years.
after the first few times of fragging my wingie trying to do rid to the bad guys and losing my ammo. i learned not to try and jump in and take a shot with a friendly in the way.
i think if ya did kill a friendly it didnt count as a death to that friendly either. it sucked to get fragged but after awhile folks didnt do it anymore.
the hardest thing that i have had to get used to is the HO. the HO was such a low percentage shot in MacAW that folks rarely took it.
yes there were a few jerks that would come up and try to frag from time to time but, they didnt last long because of the old AWAR's .there was always a monitor hanging out and flying so just comming in and fraggin or talking smak would get you a nice ejection and if you kept it up you would lose your account.
i heard that there were problems a few game monitors on the PC side of the game but, we had a very good bunch of trainers and monitors on the Mac side.
i think that it is too bad that we dont have that here. i know that everyone here tries to be helpful. but to have a few folks that can help you out on the spot would be great. but i wouldnt want to see a huge crowd of "AH-police"( for lack of a better word. ) comming in and tampering with the natural envirnoment that we have here. just someone to help tone down the vulgarity a bit and help folks out that need tech support on the fly. as well as training. i woluld also limit these AH monitors to a number of 10 or less never getting larger than that. except for the TA trainer pool.
as well i would pick some of the long term vets that really have a understanding of gameplay. and willing to set a positive example for the rest of us . ( sometimes we tend to get a lil out of hand ) and any AH tech would be held to a much higher standard than everyone else. that takes a special person. and it could not become a good old boys club either!
well i have babbled enough. and i know there are alot of pros and cons with any solutions to situations. some will like something and some will not but, talking about it in this forum and finding out what works out best for the community is what is most important.
/O
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Originally posted by Wotan
Folks already spray like mad already ready atleast I can fly into there bullet stream to kill umm.
One big reason right there for changing killshooter . I say expand protect objects to include planes , then nobody can shoot through your plane and neither the shooter nor shootee gets damaged .
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there need s to be an effect to prevent dweeb behavior. The arena is bad enough with kil stealers and spray and prayers.
you are in control if you fire without checking to make sure you are clear and die from killshooter thats your fault.
This has been whined about over and over.
Heres what my squad does.
We call "in" and "check your fire" over vox. What happens mostly during killshooter incidents is you have more then 1 friendly engaging an nme. Eack friendly needs to maintain a his SA. You need to check around and understand when someone else has gained an angle on the bandit.
Lag effects this as well do not rely on the other guy to avoid your line of fire because on his fe he may see himself clear. You know wherehe is on your fe and you are in control. If you press your attack and die from killshooter its your fault.
Killshooter works.
As I said in my previous post it also offers a counter to folks who spray and pray over your shoulder.
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Two friendlies...
1 shoots and hits the other, 1 of them goes down due to the damage inflicted...
I think this is realistic to some degree.
I just disagree with KillShooter on buff eggs +) which maybe even more dangerous now with more people doing jabo/strafing, and more eggs coming down(per drop)
SKurj
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Ok with killshooter:
1: Just about to get the kill after a long hard fight in your 202 and someguy pops in front of you you stop fireing (for fear of killshooter) and the other pilot kills your target. :(
2: No penalty: everyone spraying behind guys poping up in front very messy and nothing to stop people being cheeky :(
3: friendlies take damage: guy pops up in front of you (on the your FE) and gets blown outta the sky by your 110g-2. ensuing argument about how he shouldn't of been there, against him saying he wasn't in front of you etc, channel 1 would be bad, and i'm sure that there would be grief kills carrried out, with a little oops sorry didn't see you there :D to messy also :(
4: How about everyone dies damage taken by both parties? you shoot him he dies and you die ? also wouldn't work because of lag issues were you are on each others FE's. :(
I personally would like No' 4 mutual death your death simulate the greef of killing a countryman, remember the scene in 'memphis bell' when the co-pilot goes on the rear guns, shoot down a german that then goes through the Noobs b-17, killing them all, now he felt bad :(
The death of the guy in front would show that hes dumb, and should learn to realise that Bullets friend or foe are bad.
No one could argue as the the responsibility is with both piolts.
Just a shame it wouldn't work
so out of these 4 only number 1 makes any sense as its the only one which is controllable so to keep killshooter unless anyone has any better ideas that would work?
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Is killshooter on in the CT?
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I was in a close sissors chase the other day and was timing my shots from the up view, giving a lot of lead so the target would cross my gun stream. Just as I fired a small burst, a friendly plane came right in between me and the target and flew right into my stream. I was instantly killed on a shot that , if the friendly didnt come rushing in, was a possible kill shot on the target, and that can get a guy frustrated. In fairness, the friendly should have and deserved to have taken damage.
It's not like I killshoot myself all the time, but when I have, It has always been accidental on my part. I dont get behind friendlies and start firing.
I see some good reasons for killshooter after reading some posts here though.
Maybe there could be a few warning pings to alert you that you are hitting a friendly so you could have a little time to hold fire before you die or get mortally wounded.
Maybe instead of taking damage to the point of dying, the killshooter's plane could just take damage to the guns. I wouldnt mind if just my guns were taken out, then I could at least get home and not take a death.
If the main reason for killshooter is to prevent spraying over friendlies to get a few pings in, then maybe HTC could implement killshooter for people that fire at enemy planes going down with no wings......:)
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If the main reason for killshooter is to prevent spraying over friendlies to get a few pings in, then maybe HTC could implement killshooter for people that fire at enemy planes going down with no wings......
I second this NUKE bugs the hell outta me when I come in and take the wing tip off a buff and as it spirals to certain doom someone finishes it off :mad:
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blank killshooter aint gonna change ask ht.
It would be better to have folks to adjust to it.
You need to look around and know where your friends are and what they are doing. In most instances the guy who kill shootered you didnt even see himself infront of due to lag. You know where he is on your fe. Learn to recognize whe the other guy has the shot advantage.
Hes going for a kill just like you are.
Only you can killshooter yourself.
If you lookk bac and see a friendly overtaking you then that aint the time to fire.
its all a matter of SA.
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Nuke,
Deactivating guns when you shoot a friendly, instead of killshooter, sounds like a good idea. Kinda like the guns in the movie "Westworld" that would only shoot androids and not the human guests (anybody remember that movie?). :D Guns could either be disabled until you replane or perhaps just for several seconds.
A couple times I've been firing at a bandit's six when along comes a friendly all lined up to HO the same bandit. A few stray rounds hits the HOer and down I go.
As it is now, I think the killshooter thing is adequate.
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couldn't agree more wotan, I think I may have missunderstood/glanced over my first post, if you re read it you'll see i'm in agreement with you :)
second post,
I second this NUKE bugs the hell outta me when I come in and take the wing tip off a buff and as it spirals to certain doom someone finishes it off
said in jest :) but it does pee me off as i like flying plane like the yak/109f-4/a6m2 which dont have the killing power/ammo loadout of some of the other planes aka tiffies/n1ks/a5/110's so I make sure to go for the wingtip and or inflict mortal wound, and leave. especially in yak/a6m2 as you dont have the ammo loadout. Problem is in desert map this works well but in the crowded little maps someone else is going to finish them off and take the kill.