Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: MugZ on July 20, 2002, 09:25:34 AM
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OK.
I have to say that i really love the new bomber system concept.
Allthough i think it needs work, i am glad to see the more complex system at work. Its Cool
I am disapointed in the dramatic drop in Bomber Pilots spending time in bombers.:( All the guys that i personally know that used to spend 95% of their time in Bombers, Are spending 90% of their time in GV,s Now. And i personally communicate with around 15 or 20 of these bomber specific pilots on a daily basis in the game.
A look at the player score and stats are showing a very large drop in time logged in the new bombers. :(
Cmon yous guys. Git in dem Bombers! :) MugZ OUT
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give us more suitable targets and the #'s will rise again i think
SKurj
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Last night I took three B26s up from a10 to hit a4 (which was getting a little too happy against a5).
Grabbed up to about 16k and made my turn west towards the field. Went level, opened doors backed throttle off 20% and made minor course adjustments for about 4 minutes until the IP
loomed near. Went to sight and calibrated. Set salvo and delay. Made a nice pass, releasing 3 sets of four 500 pndrs, twice. One for the east FH and one for the west FH. Both drops bracketed the two of three Fhangers perfectly and destroyed them.
Made a safe landing at a5. Was very enjoyable 30 minutes ;)
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I have been flying bomber much more than I have in the past. I find the new system a real challenge. I can consistantly calibrate my sights and can hit my target... with enough bombs . But I am still learning, and with some more time, I can reduce my salvo and still hit the mark. As an example, if I salvo 6, I try to put the 3rd salvo on the target. Most times I am real close.
I like the fact that you don't have to fly back and forth over the target to pinpoint targes. I am also looking forward to working on a squad level doing large bombing raids. But this isn't going to come over night since most of them have yet to map the new keys:)
Setting up your route and approach to the target, the terrain, the target elevation, where you calibrate, etc makes the long boring ride much more exciting for me.
I also have been enjoying the other side of the fence, attacking bomber formations. Hunting them down, and setting up for an attack.
I have been playing AW and AH for many years because I keep finding new challenges, and I am still learning. The new bomber system now has a learning curve, like air combat. I think it will take people time to come up to speed.
Gunner
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Both drops bracketed the two of three Fhangers perfectly and destroyed them.
WTG Yeager! It doesn't get any better then this :)
Gunner
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WTG Yeager
GunnerCAF. Are you geting the same results in the Main Arena?
Or does it seam to be different in the Main Arena than in an offline or H2H Mode of play? Thanks
MugZ
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HTC, please you can wery simple way fix the Buffs , adjust the egs loadet on eny level bomber, that mean the egg loadet on buffs NEED 100 % or more biger dmg radius ! like this they can destroy something and they will need still lear to drops eggs with some precision
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MugZ,
Yes, in the MA. I have spent some time in the TA, mostly flying over the water practicing calibration. Since the last patch, I can drop them real close. Before the patch I was lucky to hit close.
I am not talking about dropping one bomb and hitting a target like you used to be able to do. The way it is now, you will be lucky to take out one or two hangers with a load of bombs from a formation of 3 B17s for example. I set salvo to drop them all to hit one target.
Gunner
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I don't like it ...I no longer fly them and now AH is half as fun.
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I agree with SirLoin. The fun is gone.
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Originally posted by SirLoin
I don't like it ...I no longer fly them and now AH is half as fun.
But why?
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I would like to see the wind turned off in the MA while
more of us get the hang of bombing
And the buff formation damage model fixed, seems
easier to kill all three in 1.10 than 1 buff in 1.09
Its NOT worth taking the time to get to a target and
and being able to have 1 fighter make 1 pass and take out all 3 buffs using 6- 50 cals
(will have to remember to record that)
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Originally posted by Duedel
But why?
It's simple really.
Precision bombing can still be done, there is no reason for the bombs to not hit your mark close enough to hit the target. Practice will do it. The calibration system is not a problem.
However, the calibration system has one MAJOR effect. You cannot maneuver beyond small adjustments without having to wait on your speed and then recalibrating. This means you get one pass on a target, which needs to be essentially a straight line.
Another pass takes roughly as long as it would take to crash and bring a jabo out. You need to turn around 25miles out or so, wait for your speed to level out, and then recalibrate.
This is all well and good, except, our targets are apparently designed to withstand the old precision, "turning while bombing" bombsight. So they are spread out enough that it is forced to take multiple passes to do any severe damage. In the new bombing system, this makes doing more than token damage nearly impossible for a bomber.
This especially applies to strat targets which are what bombers are 'supposed' to be targeting. They're so spread out that in a carpet bombing pass, the best anyone can hope to do is get a couple of buildings. On top of being hard to damage, strat targets have no noticable effect on the game. How many times have you sat at a damaged base, and wished the strat wouldn't have been bombed so you could get some of your field back?
The bomber formation damage problems arent helping. I don't know if they are bugs, design flaws, or actual design. When one bomber gets hit, other bombers often take the same damage. I would guess that some damage is being tied to the pilot, not the plane. A number of times I've lost a piece of one plane in the formation, bailed out, to see it now missing from the other plane, bailing out of that one, the last plane is missing the same parts! I've also seen the same thing happen to bombers I've shot up. By killing a piece of the lead, you can bring down the whole formation!
Blah.
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However, the calibration system has one MAJOR effect. You cannot maneuver beyond small adjustments without having to wait on your speed and then recalibrating. This means you get one pass on a target, which needs to be essentially a straight line.
Yes, I guess this would be much closer to how it was really done.... and this is bad?
I agree that one (set of three) will only do minimal damage. I think this is a step in the right direction. What we need is 3 maybe 5 sets of bombers to hit a field. This is reasonable with the numbers we have in the MA. I think this sounds like much more fun than one lone Lanc at 30K going back and forth percision dropping bombs on each hanger and building. Fun both for the people in the bombers, and people attacking the large group of bombers.
Gunner
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Originally posted by GunnerCAF
Yes, I guess this would be much closer to how it was really done.... and this is bad?
Read the post.
Now read the whole thing.
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GunnerCAF,
I think you completely missed his point.
Its the target setup, not the bomber model that is the problem. Right now it is far, far more effective for a single player to take a Bf110G-2, P-38L, P-47D-30 or Mosquito VI than any bomber. Those fast, heavy fighters will do far, far more damage to any (yes, any) target in any given amount of time. With 2 players (or 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 ect, ect) the answer is the same. Take the fast heavy fighters if you really want to do damage.
If you want to diddle around with level bombers, make craters and have no impact on the war effort to speak of, well, take a B-17G, B-26B, Boston Mk III, Ju88A-4, Ki-67 or Lancaster Mk III formation.
I think that nearly all of us prefer the new bombing system (I know I do), but unless there is an actual reason to use it, it won't get used.
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would be nice when flying in formation bombing bomb pattern would be a little wider then all three hitting same area as lead .
(http://photo3.matchnet.com/beta/2002/07/19/11614501.jpg)
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Thanks Karnak.
Gunner
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Bombing like everything else in Aces High is a work in progress. And cutting edge too. HiTech and associates will keep making it better, and threads like this help them better understand the problems and challenges.
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Before this tour a buff could take out fuel or barracks and hinder the nme from helping a base under attack.They contributed to country effort. Many times I tried to resupply a base geting hit to find the closest bases resupply shut down.Someone took the time to do it. Now you take up 3 times the bomb load and get 1/3 the hits on targets if that much and shut nothing down.
The k/d stats against buffs has doubled so far this tour as opposed to the last tour. At that rate most people will go to greener pastures. Why bother.
You can kill more in a 110 then you can kill in a flight of 3 and be more able to hit your target.
Bombing factorys or HQs or the main city is useless at best. A P47 will do more damage.
The risk is not worth the reward in buffs at this time and needs to be reinvaluated.
Besides that, it ain't no fun.
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Up a formation of Lancs....Climb out to 20k and level...Check in a few minutes AI buffs are in tight...All looks good on level flight...5 minutes later you check 6 and your 2 AI buffs aint there...
:mad:
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Originally posted by SirLoin
Up a formation of Lancs....Climb out to 20k and level...Check in a few minutes AI buffs are in tight...All looks good on level flight...5 minutes later you check 6 and your 2 AI buffs aint there...
:mad:
Did you fly over sheep... I know that's always a problem for me... other two pilots go AWOL every time.
:D tgnr
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Originally posted by ET
Before this tour a buff could take out fuel or barracks and hinder the nme from helping a base under attack.They contributed to country effort. Many times I tried to resupply a base geting hit to find the closest bases resupply shut down.Someone took the time to do it. Now you take up 3 times the bomb load and get 1/3 the hits on targets if that much and shut nothing down.
The k/d stats against buffs has doubled so far this tour as opposed to the last tour. At that rate most people will go to greener pastures. Why bother.
You can kill more in a 110 then you can kill in a flight of 3 and be more able to hit your target.
Bombing factorys or HQs or the main city is useless at best. A P47 will do more damage.
The risk is not worth the reward in buffs at this time and needs to be reinvaluated.
Besides that, it ain't no fun.
Hey!! How about if we could control 3 to 6 buffs instead of just 3.. and could control formation (box, "V", whatever"), then we'd have the choice of spreading bombs over wide area (fields) or concentrate attack (towns), and the maps wouldn't need to be changed :)
tgnr
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Before 1.10, I used to fly bombers around 50-60% of the time with the b-26 being my favorite plane in AH(behind the yak :) ). Most of that bomber fun was, after spending 30 min in route and dodging fighters and ack, getting to kill vital targets (fh, vh, radar, fuel, etc) and greatly helping the team in the process.
As it stands, the difficulty of getting the bomber to the target is multiplied tenfold by the additions of the large amount of time spent in calibration (which leaves a pilot helpless to any enemy fighters over the field) and the large amount of time spent holding your fellow drones' hands otw to and over the target. In addition, bombing must be carried out below 14k unless a pilot spends extra time lining up the field east to west.
Finally, and most importantly, most run of the mill bomber pilots, like myself, have little chance to hit anything of value on the field. One might say that bombers can easily destroy a town, but that doesn't cut it. In a fraction of the time, I can take a 110 and single-handedly take down a town, and then I can CAP afterwards and have much more fun in the process.
Many also have said and will say that bombers can and do kill individual targets on the field, but those kills are made by a dedicated fraction of the pre-1.10 numbers of bomber pilots in the game.
In short, bombers must spend much longer time flying to and setting up the target, they must spend a large amount of time defenseless while calibrating their target thus lowering their survivability, and, in large part, they have little change to hit anything of value (unless they target towns, which can easily be destroyed by jabos).
With the above in mind, I, who loved bombing pre-1.10, no longer fly bombers. My bf 110 kills targets of value much quicker than my bomber (which doesn't at all), and I am more valuable due to my plane's ability to vulch afterwards.
Most importantly, jaboing has become much more fun than bombing. Before anyone says that was my bag anyway, bombing was one of the most fun things to do in the game for me pre-1.10.
I can't speak for anyone else, and I might be the only one to feel this way, but I have noticed that there is much less bombing and much more jaboing going on than before. The new bombing system is very realistic and atmospheric, but it shouldn't be implemented at the cost of fun and balance.
-phishnut
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For me the new system is lacking in a sense of accomplishment for the Bomber pilot. With a B-17 in the old system we could consistently take 6k of bombs and do 6k worth of damage, I can understand how that would upset the ballfondlers and I don't think I've tried to argue that. Now with the new system we can take 3 B-17's with a total of 18k worth of bombs and be lucky to do any damage (ballfondlers rejoice). I'm sure there is a happy medium between the two, and I'm confident HTC is monitoring the progress of Bomber pilots and maybe even investigating on some tweakage. Either the bomber pilots will get better and adjust or they wont, in which case changes will probably be made. Relax, it'll all work out in 2 weeks.;)
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If a small circle or a dot was placed on the ground (on your FE only of course) as soon as you press the MArk button. This dot or whatever would I think be easier to track than some smudgy texture.
Furzy
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Furzy, that's a very good idea; something I have noticed about the ndisles terrain is that the water texture bites for being able to pick out an identifiable feature to use for calibrating your sight, and with that terrain, there are a lot of targets where you simply don't have the distance between the water's edge and the target to be able to reliably calibrate your sight and still be able to make a drop on your intended target (without pushing your sight line way out in front of your plane, which reduces the calibration accuracy). If we got a calibration mark that followed the terrain movement while we held down the 'y' key, we'd still have to keep it centered by hand, but we wouldn't be left to the vagaries of the ground texture to be able to find something with enough contrast to be able to see to use as a mark.
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This May sound gamey (about as gamey as having icons on fighters or range finders on CV/SB guns). But how about giving the MArk point An Icon with reference something like eg -020 Y-axis and +056 X-axis. Youll still have to go throgh exact same routine but at least you will have an Idea how well your doing it.
As I say a Game concession like plane Icons!
Furzy
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Or, as an alternative to the current method of holding the bombsight to a mark on the ground, how about something a little closer to the way the Norden was calibrated -- when you go into the groundspeed calibration function (right now, pressing 'y' while holding the crosshairs on a mark), instead of holding to a mark, what you get is the crosshairs slaved to your airspeed plus or minus some random variation (so that, if calibrated accurately, it would be tracking a single spot on the ground), and you had to adjust the speed and drift settings a lá the manual trim controls to eliminate the perceived motion of the crosshairs. When you've stopped the crosshairs from moving, the sight is calibrated to your plane's ground speed.
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I like the new system, except for the manual calibration part of having to hold a cursor on a spot for 2 seconds - I find this difficult.
After calibrating, my bomb sight is often scewed to the left or right and I have to then adjust my course - I don't understand this, the bomber was on course before I calibrated - and in these cases, my bombs usually miss.
We need a better forward view so that we can see and line up on the target. I've had to adjust my head position so that it's shoved below the bomb sight pressed up against the glass.
How about changing the calibration so that once you line up on the target, established your speed and altitude, you go to the bombadier sight, press U, click on the map and the drop alt, speed, wind, and target alt are automatically set.
Increase the randomness to the bomb dispersion so that it's not always a sure thing the bombs will hit on target.
I would also like to see the top gunner allowed to shoot about 2 degrees closer to the tail. There's a large cone of air space un protected.
Another problem, is when I'm in a gun position and my plane is FUBAR going down, I have to first move to the pilots position and then bail. This delay causes the other buffs to spiral down with the plane I'm in - or snap that short silver thread.
If the gun I'm in is disabled or blocked by the vertical stab, but the guns in the other planes are not, let them continue firing. Forcing the gunner to hop around to find a gun that shoots, gives the advantage to the attacker.
With this new system, I'm finding it easier to kill buffs, and more difficult to bomb and defend.
But I do like the new system, I just think it needs tweaking.
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Bommin ain't no fun no more :(
Mullah
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For Starters, TURN OFF THE WIND!
It makes it almost impossible to hit above 12K !
Bombing from 20-25 K is pointless, and NO FUN !
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You need to learn how to calibrate your sights. You can do it with a cross wind. I took out half a town with a half a load of 500 lb bombs in a B17 formation, at 28K in a cross wind. I put my eggs right where I aimed them. Now that's what fun is.
Gunner
Pre Change
Same old stuff. We need change. I'm bored. When will we get change? I
need change now!
Change
Yaa Hoo!!! It's here!! This is great! Thanks for the change.
Post Change
Hey, this is different. This isn't how it used to be. Wow, this sucks. I
wish it was like it used to be.
You Are Here X
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I like the new system, except for the manual calibration part of having to hold a cursor on a spot for 2 seconds - I find this difficult.
I found the 2 seconds is a minimum. You can hold it longer. Just make sure everyting in your view is not moving when you let go of the button. What spot you are pointing at seems to not matter, as long is it is not drifing when you release the button. I sometimes hold the button maybe 15 seconds or longer to get a good calibration.
Mabe the instructions need to be more clear?
Gunner
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I like the new bombing system. It needs some work but overall, it's much more fun. True, we can't flatten a field with only one Lanc anymore but WTH, that was messed up to begin with. It takes two players working together to do the same damage and that's OK by me.
For some players, the new bombsight system seems to be working perfectly. At least you would think so from their posts.
For the rest of us, we're experiencing inconsistent results due to two problems which conspire to defeat us:) On our machines, the bombs fall long and they fall east by an equal amount no matter how well we calibrate. This needs fixing. For us, the only way to hit our fighter hangers is to run east to west.
I for one envy those who don't have to allow for the errors but I look forward to HT fixing it. Then we'll all be happy bomber pilots again.
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Easyscor,
In the TA, can you consistantly calibrate your sights to match the green x?
Do you think there is a bug causing it not to work on some peoples PCs? Or a problem of everyone leaning how to use the new system?
I find it hard to believe that it works on some peoples PC, and not on others. But then that would explain why some people are better at air combat than I am :D
Gunner
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You need to learn how to calibrate your sights. You can do it with a cross wind. I took out half a town with a half a load of 500 lb bombs in a B17 formation
And I can do better in a typhoon in what, 1/4 the time? ;)
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Then fly a typhoon;)
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Then fly a typhoon
I am. Along with 90% of the other bommer pilots :p
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OK GunnerCaf, I'll give it one more month of practice at high alt. If you can do it, then I know it's my technique.
When you calibrate at high alt, you say it takes wind into account ? Never seems to for me, but I will try again. ;)
I agree with the other folks in here who say the role of the level bomber is just about pointless though. I can take up a Mossie, and kill all the acks and level a town in one flight. Then the base can be captured. That's not right.
I liked the Air Warrior requirement that 75% of all a base structures be destroyed. That is not the cure for making the heavy bomber have a role again, but there are lots of ideas in these threads that could.
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I submit that many of us were spoiled by the unrealisitc level bombing "play" that was previously available in Aces High and other flight sims. One bomb from medium or high altitude to take out a single target (say a fuel tank) was just not realisitc. Many of the scenarios tried to work around this by requiring buffs to drop a full salvo of bombs.
The current "realisitc" level bombing methods simply require re-thinking how we use level bombers. The business about calibrating the bomb sight is awkward at first, but after using it for a while really isn't that hard. It's sort of like learning to drive a car with a manual transmission. At first a lot of your attention is spent on performing the mechanics of the process. After awhile, shifting manually becomes "automatic".
My initial attempts at level bombing were very frustrating. Lately, however, I've found that they are becoming easier. I'm experimenting with varying my salvo delays between .2 and .3 seconds and I'm starting to get very consistant bombing results. For me, at least, the answer was practice. Lots of practice and a switch in the kinds of targets I attack (towns make excellent targets for full salvos).
- MAG1C
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When you calibrate at high alt, you say it takes wind into account ?
In a cross wind, need to hold the stick back, and to the right or left to get the mark to stop drifting. Take your time and get it to stop drifting before you release the key. Good luck!
Gunner
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I'm experimenting with varying my salvo delays between .2 and .3 seconds
I am still learning this stuff also, but I found longer delays (.5 to .7) give you nice blanket over the target.
Gunner
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I am all for a more real bombing effort. But I took up
3 lancs. Spent 45 minutes getting 20k alt. Calibrated
perfectly, dropped all bombes (except 3) on base and
got exactly 2 gunemplacements and a ammo bunker.
In reality, this effort would have crippled any airbase for
a week. Just in runway repairs, not to mention blast damage
from 42000lbs of bombs landing in an area the size of
an airfield at once. Thye got rid of precision guided bombs
but still require precision hits. I fly way less buff missions than
I used to. Cant invest the amount of time to do a good run,
only to come a way with a scratch on a base.
I also see far less bombers in the air, which is a testimony to
new system IMHO.
Some people are not good fitrs and like to contribute by buffing.
My squads buff experts are now resorting to rockets and
strafing.
Increase the blast radius!!!
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I use .7 and above, depending on how many I'm carrying.
You can carpet not only the VH hangar, but half a dozen vehicles on both sides of it, or half of the main airfield.
And I can't stress enough how valuable to me the 1 pass and go home is, multi hour bomber sorties were not much fun.
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I think it's great! I actually feel like a WWII Bomber Pilot and not some Nentendo jockey.
It could use some improvment but I'm sure that will come in time just like every other inovation from HTC.
No complaints here......
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no offense..but this sht is beaten on BB way to much
the Buff suk,,,,
I love formations....
I dont mind the calibration...
But they are pretty much useless
We need box formations of atleast 12 per person:)
Or Change the Airfield Layouts
I would rather have more bomers..especilly when they pop like ballons by a single plane that flys by
I used to bom alot...I have 60 Hours in jULY in BUFFS.....they still suk for boming...only thing i use buffs for are to sink cv;s now..work great for that....or to just DEATHSTAR
Love BiGB
xoxoxo
12 man box formataions Plus me163...weeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!
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Well I'm glad at least that I'm not the only one who has given up level bombing as a waste of time...
With all due respect to all the bomber experten around here, you seem to be missing the essential point that people find the new system to be overly complex and UNFUN for a (dare I say it?) GAME. Yes folks, its just an enjoyable leisurely time waster, that we pay to play. Not an actual war.
Simply calling people names and doing the playground "I can do it so nyah-nyah" cha-cha isn't going to help you get your stats up and time is now telling that people aren't "gradually learning to love the new system." I'm one of the guys who used to fly bombers 50% of the time, now I fly them rough 2% of the time and then its only so I can send 6 torpedos towards a fleet with one flight.
Most of the points I would make have already been made by Innominate in his excellent summary, so I'll try hard not to be redundant. But what it comes down to is simply this; if you want to get people to fly bombers again, you'll have to do one of the following at the very least:
1) Dump calibration and go back to LGBing (which HT will never do so on to the next suggestions)
2) If we must have WW2 calibration - we need WW2 style targets! Factory complexes, refineries, etc. with lots of closely grouped primary and secondary targets. Make targets with too many items to be effectively destroyed with JABOs. Also and this is a MAJOR beef, when a runway is hit by multiple 1K bombs you shouldn't be able to use that runway till it is repaired! Whacking all the runways at a base should put a crimp in its ability to launch planes.
3) Return the damage models on the bombers to pre-change settings. This to my mind is a must. Also, the bomber guns just aren't as powerful. The equation here is simple guys - you want people to fly 'em? Make it worth their while.
We know the experten supposedly get a kick out of having things as complex as possible (which is why they all fly 202s in the MA right? ;) Ya sure you betcha) but normal players don't.
4) And I call this the "sour grapes" approach. Make Jaboing harder. The US planes function way too well when fully loaded.
Either change the system or AH will become "Fighter Wars" and that's simply reality.
Last night in the MA we had a couple of Lanc formations come in at high alt over the base we were defending. 6 months ago, I would have been terrified, but last night we defenders IGNORED them, knowing they wouldn't even scratch our base. We concentrated on the 51s, F6Fs, and 47s that were actually hurting us.
Oh the bombers? 1 guy leisurely climbed after them in a NIKI and fragged most of them all at will. My sympathies to the poor jerks who spent so much time getting them to alt only to toss bombs randomly across the map and then get vaporized. I know from experience that it isn't fun.
- Seagoon
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yep seagoon...
I do liek teh rnway damage..it should be there,,,,You can still take off..but you will have to sue grass fileds...
WAHHHH I cant use auto take off..lollo
You should here the cries when my missions start from the HANGARS.lololo
Its so funnt that now i do it on purpose..:):)
Love BiGB
xoxoxo
Seagoon..,,,what you think about increasing the size of buff formatiosn..not sure how hard this would be to model
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well.... now we know where all the no talent, suicide, 150% losses jabo "missun" guys are coming from.
lazs
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whoever decided bombing was too easy in the first place?
true, in real life, 1 b17 is not going to lay 6000lbs of
bombs precisley on target. But in real life, 300 b17's would
burn entire cities.
I think in some instances, we have to sacrifice realism for
feasability in game play, and time issues with some of us.
It is a good balance, if I get my b17 thru the nme air defenses,
which were never nonexistant, i can knock out fuel and radar
of an airbase.
I gather returning to the old method is not going to happen,
but something has to be done to get the buffs back in the sky.
I not only buff, but hunt buffs, and i can say. The pickens are
slim these days.
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From the score board ,yesterday morning to early this morning.
KIA, 38 B17s, 21 B26s and 45 Lancs. Total 109 sorties. Not very many if they all went up alone. Very few if they went up in formation.