Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: easymo on July 21, 2002, 03:33:18 PM
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No. Not a whine, just an idea. I have read dozens of killshooter threads over the years. God knows how many posts. This is an obvious flaw in the system.
If I had a magic wand. This is what I would do.
There would be no visible effect when hitting a friendly. When you got back to the tower, there would be a popup stating "you have hit a friendly xxx number of times. xxx of additional hits on a friendly will lower your overall guns lethality to 75 percent" Then it would go to 50 percent, 25, then zero. This would reset at the beginning of each tour.
The nitwits would lose interest in shooting friendlys because it would have no effect. The inadvertent spraying of a friendly would get you nothing more then a warning. The continued bad habit of hitting friendlys would get you badly penalized.
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If it ain't broke, don't fix it,:cool:
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If it wasnt broke, it wouldnt keep comming up.
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Matter of opinion, just stating mine.
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As annoying as it is when someone dives in front of my guns, I think it's the best solution right now.
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It is annoying when it happens, but if you're reasonably careful it is rare, or maybe I'm just lucky. Doubt I've killed myself more than 10 times with killshooter since I've been playing the game. Augers on the other hand really piss me off, I vote for lowering the ground. ;)
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"I think it's the best solution right now."
Right now?
Do a search on the word killshooter sometime. When you get bored with reading those, go over to AGW and do the same thing. This is a very old, and unresolved game play issue.
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If Your a smart shooter and have good SA then you shouldnt be having a problem. Unless your shooting all your ammo into one target or maybe flying a cannon bird.
I agree with Iron, Its been a long long long time since I haved died do to kill shooter...And most times I had minor damage
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killshooter works
leave it alone
its only a "gameoply issue" if it kills you.
good sa and recognition will keep you out of a killshooter 9 times outs 10. Learn to break off or check fire when you see you lost the advantage to a friendly. Communicate over vox.
You pull the trigger, you are responsible for whast you hit. Most joysticks have hat switches. AH has a great view system. AH has in game vox.
All you need is good SA to keep from killshootering yourself.
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Easymo, as you know, accidentally shooting freindlies was/is a real life hazard. HiTech has choosen to add this to the game. Some suggest it was to make kill stealing less attractive. I know he's posted on the issue but I can't recall if he's ever definitively said why we have killshooter.
I think it adds an element of risk making the game more exciting. I don't mean to tell you it can't be improved, I just like it the way that it is.
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The first lines of my post were "No. This is not a whine"
I don't have any problem with killshooter either. So what? Just because it doesn't happen to me, does not mean its not a problem. I have been playing since beta. What about the new guy? My idea seems like a fairer way to ease him into the system.
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Originally posted by AKIron
I think it adds an element of risk making the game more exciting. I don't mean to tell you it can't be improved, I just like it the way that it is.
I think the problem that most people have with the way killshooter works now is that it puts that "risk" on the wrong pilot.
The "risk" should be placed on the pilot flying in front of an already engaged friendly pilot.
There will never be a way to handle this that will appease everyone ... so I think it should lean more towards the most realistic version: fly into a stream of bullets and you will take damage.
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No way to know if your idea would work without trying it, however, I think it would likely cause the most severe penalty to the new person you mentioned.
Imagine a newbie getting online for the first time and shooting at all the planes he sees. Now he's penalized for the rest of the month.
Your plan sounds more harsh than the current one, is that your intent? To eliminate the conga lines?
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IMO the only problem with killshooter is the "quad-damage" effect. Hitting another plane should do equal damage to you that you inflict, not this "hit a friendly with a .303 and your tail section goes flying" crap.
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Iron. That is why I put xxx in the number of hits. This could be dieled in. also varied for the difference between cannon and MG
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Originally posted by Innominate
IMO the only problem with killshooter is the "quad-damage" effect. Hitting another plane should do equal damage to you that you inflict, not this "hit a friendly with a .303 and your tail section goes flying" crap.
Have to agree with that. All the times (I think) that I've hit myself due to killshooter killed me. If only I could be so effective on the enemy.
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first , i have never been killed by killshooter, i never shoot unless i have a clear shot at enemy, but i would like friendly fire turned on , also friendly collisions should be on , and no spawn points at the ends of runways, we should have to spawn in hangers or on hard stands and taxi to the runway. takeoff and landing priorties could be controled by "otto ' in the tower.
why can't the small fields have big grassy fields instead of paved runways?
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Originally posted by easymo
If it wasnt broke, it wouldnt keep comming up.
In this thread, I've seen one person argue that killshooter is an obvious gameplay flaw (you), and five people (AKIron, Raubvogl, Wotan, Nefarious, and myself) who think it's just fine. A couple of others offered commentary without appearing to support or despise it.
What that tells me is that despite the fact that threads keep starting about killshooter, a vast majority of people are happy with it. For every one of the dozens of threads started that rail against killshooter, in the end it always appears that those who support it outnumber those who don't by thread's end.
So where's the problem after all?
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by john9001
first , i have never been killed by killshooter, i never shoot unless i have a clear shot at enemy, but i would like friendly fire turned on , also friendly collisions should be on , and no spawn points at the ends of runways, we should have to spawn in hangers or on hard stands and taxi to the runway. takeoff and landing priorties could be controled by "otto ' in the tower.
why can't the small fields have big grassy fields instead of paved runways?
I could tolerate friendly fire only if the offender went PNG for a while after a couple of incidents within say a 24 hour period. Airwarrior was like this, at least in the early years.
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Funny thing happened last night,
A squadmate and I flying together spotted a 109 that got low slow, and was trying to run home, we both raced to get him. At one point my squadmate got out in front of me, but I was diving enough to slowly pull ahead of him, he was spraying the 109 at about 600 yards, just as I pulled slowly though him.
He killshootered himself as my wing flew through his guns, before he could even see it.
:D
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Vast majority huh. LOL. I wont clog the server with posts. But this one should get the idea across.
all the Gremlin
Senior Member
Registered: Jun 2000
Location: Ireland, Dublin.
Posts: 358
I started putting a notch on my monitor everytime there was a killshooter whine on this BBS. It has just fallen apart
__________________
Flt.Lt.Gremlin
3IC Firebirds, 56 "Fighter" Sqn RAF.
Second Tactical Air Force
AH CM Team.
"Quid si coelum ruat - 'What if heaven falls?'"
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Gee...if they change killshooter, then how will we hold killshooter duels when we get bored defending a base with no more targets coming in? Or how do we get back to the tower quickly without having to auger or land?
Its much easier to saddle up on a friendly and blast yourself away so that you can re-up elsewhere to thwart the evil knitrook hordes.
:D
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I don't think there is any increase to damage done from killshooter, we kill each other all the time in killshooter duels and I just don't see it. Specially using hurricane Is.
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Sling, FDBs are barred from any discussions on killshooter seeing as they are one of the primary reasons its necessary.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by easymo
Vast majority huh. LOL. I wont clog the server with posts. But this one should get the idea across.
Yes, a vast majority. People start threads about things they don't like far more often than they do about things they like. Why would you expect that there should be as many "I love killshooter!!" threads as "I hate killshooter!!" threads? Naturally the latter will outnumber the former since killshooter is the status quo.
More telling is that most killshooter threads degenerate into more people showing support for it than railing against it. This thread is one case in point.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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DMF. Nice spin. You should go into politics. The truth is, I don't have any strong feelings about KS, one way or the other. I was just trying to float an idea.
The real challenge, to putting an idea out, around here. Is to get it past the apologists / cheerleaders. They apparently carry beepers that alert them when someone post something that might remotely indicate that there is an imperfection in AH.
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I'm with John9001 on this. I always thought the AW PNG period was a the best compromise to discourage friendly fire and kill stealing.
palef.
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Originally posted by easymo
DMF. Nice spin. You should go into politics. The truth is, I don't have any strong feelings about KS, one way or the other. I was just trying to float an idea.
The real challenge, to putting an idea out, around here. Is to get it past the apologists / cheerleaders. They apparently carry beepers that alert them when someone post something that might remotely indicate that there is an imperfection in AH.
So, now we degenerate to name calling. Seems to happen most when the argument is weak.
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Jeez guys! I was just tossing out an idea. I didn't know these things were carved into the sacred stone. I'll bear my left shoulder in deference to Rome. And sacrifice a bull.
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Originally posted by easymo
Jeez guys! I was just tossing out an idea. I didn't know these things were carved into the sacred stone. I'll bear my left shoulder in deference to Rome. And sacrifice a bull.
If ya only wanted agreeing comments ya shoulda said so.
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Easymo's got a point, and a not half bad idea.
The fact it would deprive my squad of it's high yucks and jollies is about the only negative thing I see in Easymo's positive suggestion to help rid the sim of a sometime annoyance to most of the rest of the players.
He's also got a point about cheeleaders and apologists... I've also noticed that anybody who points out a flaw in the sim usually gets dogpiled on... regardless of wether the guy has a reasonable suggestion to improve it or not.
Or, it could just be Easymo's cologne. ;)
Of course, the smart thing to do is wear a Toga and and keep some well hung live beef on standby. Just in case. :D
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Originally posted by easymo
DMF. Nice spin. You should go into politics. The truth is, I don't have any strong feelings about KS, one way or the other. I was just trying to float an idea.
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It doesn't matter what your own personal opinion on the matter is at this point. The fact is that you claimed that killshooter is a "problem" based on the number of threads declaring it so regardless of your own feelings about it. My reply was in response to this comment, which I felt painted an inaccurate picture of the levels of support for and against killshooter.
The real challenge, to putting an idea out, around here. Is to get it past the apologists / cheerleaders. They apparently carry beepers that alert them when someone post something that might remotely indicate that there is an imperfection in AH.
Apologist/cheerleader? LOL. Killshooter goes back to Warbirds and Air Warrior, and I thought it was the best alternative at the time and now. The problem as I see it is that what you deem an "imperfection" in AH, many others see as a perfectly fine gameplay concession. It's not about blindly cheerleading anything... it's about supporting a system that, for the most part, works better than any other. Your idea is duely noted, but it begs the question from me... why?
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Hangtime
He's also got a point about cheeleaders and apologists... I've also noticed that anybody who points out a flaw in the sim usually gets dogpiled on... regardless of wether the guy has a reasonable suggestion to improve it or not.
No, his "point" is a knee-jerk self-defense mechanism to paint himself as being the victim of cheerleaders and apologists everywhere. It's a convenient way to cover up a deficient viewpoint.
The fact is that many... and I'd argue most... don't see killshooter as a flawed system in need of removal or improvement. When he posts as if it is, then he should expect that he's going to have those who fundamentally disagree with him call him on it.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Instead of killshooter killing the wrong plane ( the one doing the shooting) why not just make the wrong plane's guns take the damage ?
Wouldnt this accomplish all the points of the current killshooter system? And it would be a lot easier to deal with for all.
Make the guns only take damage, then you would have to re-plane to get guns back. Seems simple to me. So simple, it would never be implemented.
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The only time Killshooter is a problem (IMO) is when people (usually cherry pickers for lack of a better term) fly THROUGH (into) my guns rather than just back off of an already almost done fight... OR someone flies through the bomb blast when I've dropped on a ground target.
...that makes it an annoyance, not a flaw.
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Henh.. I've obviously stepped into a personality pissing contest.
Yuck.
I've always considered that damn killshooter a 'necessary evil' at best, a good way to keep 15 day wonders from messin with the rest of us, at worst a gawdamned irritating way to discover some over-eager donutwood hopped in front of me while I'm slappin the trigger on a pinned bad guy.
In the first case it's tolerabe, in the second, and most common place, the guy that deserved to die didn't.
Thats freakin annoying.
Now a guy comes along and offers what sounds to be a not unreasonable solution.. I don't die when some joker hops in front of my guns, and the 15 day wonder gets his guns turned off in short order if he persisits.
No, his "point" is a knee-jerk self-defense mechanism to paint himself as being the victim of cheerleaders and apologists everywhere. It's a convenient way to cover up a deficient viewpoint.
Deficient? In what way? Just because you don't see the killshooter system we have as deficient (I sure do) does not necessarily mean that the current killshooter system is unflawed. And it obviously is.
The fact is that many... and I'd argue most... don't see killshooter as a flawed system in need of removal or improvement. When he posts as if it is, then he should expect that he's going to have those who fundamentally disagree with him call him on it.
I think yer wrong again. For the reasons I've pointed out above.. I'd think that given a choice between the current system and the suggestion that easymo made, easymo's is better hands down.
Now, DMF, whats your REAL beef? His callin you a cheerleader for hoppin his case with a reasonable solution to a gamey piece of the sim? Is your skin so damn thin? Or the thought of somebody thinkin yer staunch defense of something thats 'worked in three sims' could be improved bends yah outta sorts?
Or is it just that the idea came from easymo, and as such it's indefensible and unacceptable?
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I'm for anything that results in more deaths. If not killshooter then let me kill the friendly in front of me.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
I've always considered that damn killshooter a 'necessary evil' at best, a good way to keep 15 day wonders from messin with the rest of us, at worst a gawdamned irritating way to discover some over-eager donutwood hopped in front of me while I'm slappin the trigger on a pinned bad guy.
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I agree, it's a necessary evil. The AW experience proved this when the PNG system was replaced by killshooter, and rightfully so IMO.
In the first case it's tolerabe, in the second, and most common place, the guy that deserved to die didn't.
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Here's where I disagree. It is tolerable, yes, but rarely in my experience has the guy that deserved to die NOT died. Killshooter punishes poor shooting and bad SA. Sometimes it's unavoidable... the other night I blew my tail off as a squaddie flew in front of my guns 30 yards ahead. And you know what? I deserved to die for that... it was my poor SA, not his flying in front of me, that did me in. The game rightly punished me for poor flying.
Thats freakin annoying.
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Annoying doesn't necessarily make it wrong. In the same way that someone who dies to a HO never seems to admit taking the HO himself, many people who die by killshooter can't admit that it was their own flying and not the other guy's that lead to their demise. Why is it that some people die often to killshooter and others don't? Something must explain the disparity... surely "jokers" don't just jump in front of some people's guns but not others on a regular basis.
Now a guy comes along and offers what sounds to be a not unreasonable solution.. I don't die when some joker hops in front of my guns, and the 15 day wonder gets his guns turned off in short order if he persisits.
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My original post objected to easymo's claim that the many killshooter hate threads are proof that killshooter is flawed. It had nothing to do with his solution per se, but rather his faulty logic in assuming that a majority of the players desire something different. The fact is that in most threads on killshooter, the original poster and a couple of others vent about it, and a larger number tends to post in support of it.
I think yer wrong again. For the reasons I've pointed out above.. I'd think that given a choice between the current system and the suggestion that easymo made, easymo's is better hands down.
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I find the current system superior to easymo's suggestion, and here are the reasons why. First of all, lackof immediacy means that easymo's plan won't prevent the kinds of over-the-shoulder spray 'n pray mentioned in other threads. It probably won't reward better positioning or superior SA in any noticable way as the current system does. In short, it doesn't encourage "realistic" flying like the current system.
Second, the punishment vastly outweighs the crime. It's one thing to punish poor gunnery, poor SA, or whatnot with dying. It's a death... you need to grab another plane, climb back into the fight, waste the time to get back into things, lose the K/D, etc. Once and done. It's another thing entirely to consistently punish someone over the course of a tour for their mistakes. The system proposed by Easymo wouldn't prevent "jokers" from flying in front of your guns any less, only now you would have to face the possibility that you'll be at a constant disadvantage for a very long time. Even the old AW PNG was better than this IMO.
Now, DMF, whats your REAL beef? His callin you a cheerleader for hoppin his case with a reasonable solution to a gamey piece of the sim? Is your skin so damn thin? Or the thought of somebody thinkin yer staunch defense of something thats 'worked in three sims' could be improved bends yah outta sorts?
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(C) None of the above. Easymo's contention that killshooter is flawed because there are so many posts saying that it's flawed is what I attacked originally. That argument proves nothing. The fact is that most AH players either don't notice, don't care, or prefer killshooter -- you know, the 90% who don't post on the boards, and the majority of those who show support for it in threads like this. They may well do the same with an improved version of it, but Easymo's suggestion is hardly an improvement.
Or is it just that the idea came from easymo, and as such it's indefensible and unacceptable?
I have no beef with easymo personally, so I'm not really sure where you came up with that one. I don't recall stating that easymo's position was "indefensible," though it certainly is unacceptable given a number of factors pointed out already in the thread.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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I would just like to see an apropriate ammout of damage done to my plane when the kill shooter kicks in.
Its stupid Im 300 yards behind a nmy hosing him in front of him is a frndly 1.2 away from me. I get 2 50cal rounds into frndly and my tail comes off mean while I have put 400 rounds into the nmy in front of me and nothing comes off and yes I know if I put 1000
single holes in a plane its not gonna hurt it. My convergence is set to 250 275 300. Now I have gotten hits on nmy planes from 900 out but with that conv nothing gets hurt but shoot a frndly at that range and your going down period. That just aint right!!
If im d300 and I hit a frndly I expect to go down I expect to explode in a most spectacular blast. But hitting a frndly from 800 900 1000 yards out I should not take any or at least not major damage!!
Thats just my opinion I could be wrong.
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Dead
Do you really consider your squaddie flying INTO your bullet stream your fault? Your level of SA goes down in a fight. Worse when your pinging a badguy. Personally, I'd kindly ask one of my squad mates to back the hell off, especially if they were not part of that particular fight to begin with. At best, it's an accident, at worst... it's,.. well it's not what I'd expect of a squadmate, but hardly your fault for bad SA.
Anyway... killshooter and PNG are bad things to have to deal with. Unfortunately we in the world of cyber games will always have to deal with retards who's only goal is to cause trouble. Doubt there is anything that could be done to keep the dork gate locked and still please everyone else.
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Originally posted by Tumor
Do you really consider your squaddie flying INTO your bullet stream your fault? Your level of SA goes down in a fight. Worse when your pinging a badguy. Personally, I'd kindly ask one of my squad mates to back the hell off, especially if they were not part of that particular fight to begin with. At best, it's an accident, at worst... it's,.. well it's not what I'd expect of a squadmate, but hardly your fault for bad SA.
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I totally considered it my fault. I knew he was around, and I saw him pull a lead turn on the bandit... but my timing and expectations of where he'd wind up were off, causing me to killshooter myself. But you've just said it yourself... the level of SA goes down in a fight. Why must we always assume that the other guy knows where you are or what you're doing? He's trying to shoot the bandit down too, after all, and it just so happened that he maneuvered into your bullet stream. Killshooter forces one to manuever for the best possible shot so that unexpected things like this don't happen.
What I honestly don't understand is how people can consider it anything but their own faults. I suppose that once in a very long, long while that someone might intentionally plant himself between an enemy and me with the sole intention of forcing me to killshooter myself, but I'd venture that in most cases, killshooter occurs due to multiple people going ofter a bogey and a breakdown in SA or aim at some point.
Anyway... killshooter and PNG are bad things to have to deal with. Unfortunately we in the world of cyber games will always have to deal with retards who's only goal is to cause trouble. Doubt there is anything that could be done to keep the dork gate locked and still please everyone else.
I agree completely. Killshooter is a game concession first and foremost. Since we don't have the fear or horror that comes with accidentally shooting down a real, live wingman, it at least forces some of the behavior that prevented such occurences in real life. And since we can't really stop tardlings from making an open season on friendlies... it's a necessary evil.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
What I honestly don't understand is how people can consider it anything but their own faults.
-- Todd/Leviathn
I seldom consider it my fault. I don't furball much, and usually don't have a wingman. I pick my targets, which are probably 90% of the time not engaged. Actually.. I haven't been killed by killshooter in as long as I can remember, however I do occasionally take damage which is either inconsequential or ends up "softening" my plane for the next round. When I take this damage, it's almost always some cherrypicker or leech who suddenly plants himself in front of me WHILE I'm fireing, and of course I had no idea he was even there. It's not like I keep plugging away hoping to fire around the good guy lol. That is not my fault and it does make me think killshooter is a little too tough.
...actually now that I think about it I lied lol. In the CT the other night I was very fast trying to save DbLTrbl's JU-88 from a Hurri. I pulled the trigger and was close to the Hurri when I pulled a long trigger shot. I killed the Hurri but Dbl threw the 88 into a jink that converged with my bullet stream and BOOM, my plane falls apart. The difference is... I KNEW I was taking a chance. The key player was more Chance than Fault but my at the end of the day... it was my fault. And... another reason I tend to think Killshooter is too tough on your own plane.
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A couple of points.
1) HT has stated innumerable times that he doesnt see a better solution to the problem, ergo a change is extremely unlikely. I tend to think he has thought about it quite a bit.
2) He has also stated that there is no damage multiplier for killshooter BUT, all the damage is applied to YOUR center fuselage no matter where your hits land, hence your plane tends to fall apart rather quickly.
3) My only major problem with it, despite the innate apparent unfairness of me dying because of someone's greed or imexperience, is when it happens from bomb drops during jabo.( I don't buff ) I don't have a better solution but I sure wish it weren't so.
knman
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I seldom consider it my fault
what a surprise :rolleyes:
Thats the whole point it is your fault. As soon as you understand that killshooter wont be a problem for you.
You can look around before you fire. Your gun arent on auto fire. What u see on your fe isnt the same thing that the other guy sees. He may see himself out of your line of fire. Hes pressin for a kill just like you. Look around learn to recognize when you have lost the advantage to your team mate. When he is closing fast and gaining a position for a shot that may put him into your gun stream thats not the time for you to spray and pray.
Learn some SA. It isnt just about where your nme is.
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Originally posted by easymo
Vast majority huh. LOL. I wont clog the server with posts. But this one should get the idea across.
all the Gremlin
Senior Member
Registered: Jun 2000
Location: Ireland, Dublin.
Posts: 358
I started putting a notch on my monitor everytime there was a killshooter whine on this BBS. It has just fallen apart
Easymo, I am saying nothing more than this BBS is full of KSwhiners. Thats all. Just because a load of guys whine about something doesnt make it wrong. What about the zillion other guys who dont complain about it. ANy1 who's got a problem with KS just needs to learn some SA. If KS wasn't the way it is there can you imagine the scene. I spend time and effort saddling up on some bandit only for some dweeb to zoom in behind me and shoot my bandit down over my shoulder. Now THAT would upset me.
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KS ?
no ... it's just Darwinism at work ... sometime it help me remind that there's a lot more bad word in french than I believe :D
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I rarely die from KS....when I do, it's annoying.
Let me preface the following by saying I don't really care if it stays the same or get's changed.
Ok...I would prefer that ammo was live and that whoever flew into my guns died. No PNG...no killshooter....just guns on. I believe that peer pressure alone would police your countrymates.
But, like I said, I don't really care what HT does and I know for a fact, that what I suggested will never happen.
I understand Todds view as well....what he speaks of is the reason why I don't die from killshooter very often...gotta know whats up around you at all times during a fight.
Matter of fact, the times I do die from killshooter is by the hands of my own squadmates...flyin in the 13th reminds me of a pack of wild dogs fighting for a bite....if you're not aggressive, you won't ever get any kills:)
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Originally posted by Rude
Ok...I would prefer that ammo was live and that whoever flew into my guns died. No PNG...no killshooter....just guns on. I believe that peer pressure alone would police your countrymates.
Rude, the two weeks wonder who flys up your rear end and blows you and the bandit away doesnt care about peer pressure. He wont be here in two weeks anyway.
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Thats the whole point it is your fault. As soon as you understand that killshooter wont be a problem for you.
Horsepucky!!
Gawdamn.. is this the internet... or RL?
Freakin furballs mean warps.. warps means inadvertent killshooter deaths.. have you guys simply decided to ignore internet reality and have decidied that what the game has now is IT, that it can't be improved, that flaws arn't in there, that improvements cannot be made, that it's freakin created PERFECT now, unassailabe, unimprovable?
Damn, I've been here since jump street. Paid my dues, even when I didn't fly months at a time.. don't try and tell me I'm overeacting here.. you guys are touting a roadkill kill system that becoming more of a problem as numbers in the furballs and in the MA increase.
Sayin it ain't a problem, that killin yerself because some warpy guy pops up in front is YOUR OWN DAMN FAULT is cheerleading horseshit... and I'm sorry, I've got pretty good SA.. but not so good that I can line up a deflection shot, shoot and look out the back all at the same freakin time. And if yer tryin to tell me you CAN, yer full of crap too.
Anything that leads to my freakin airplane NOT flyin into confetti when my rounds inadvertantly hit a friendly is a good thing.
Now, gawdammit, READ the quote below. Explain to me again how much skin off yer tulips this would take??
There would be no visible effect when hitting a friendly. When you got back to the tower, there would be a popup stating "you have hit a friendly xxx number of times. xxx of additional hits on a friendly will lower your overall guns lethality to 75 percent" Then it would go to 50 percent, 25, then zero. This would reset at the beginning of each tour.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Now, gawdammit, READ the quote below. Explain to me again how much skin off yer tulips this would take??
quote:
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There would be no visible effect when hitting a friendly. When you got back to the tower, there would be a popup stating "you have hit a friendly xxx number of times. xxx of additional hits on a friendly will lower your overall guns lethality to 75 percent" Then it would go to 50 percent, 25, then zero. This would reset at the beginning of each tour.
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Hang,
Can you not see the blindingly obvious flaw?? You fly on day 1 of the tour and due to internet warps/dweebs etc you make the criteria for 0% ammo effectiveness. Now you got no guns for a whole month. I gotta 56k connect, not the greatest, not the worst prolly similar to most AH players. I have never died to KS where it wasnt down to my own plain stupidity, not warps/dweebs fault, my fault. When I do it I kick myself not the guy who flew in front of me.
BTW thx for a great time in the rumble m8:)
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you gotta a hat switch mate look around either you got the shot or the friendly closing fast does. All ya gotta do is look and fire at closer ranges.
My squaddie are competive we fight each other for kills. We fly 30mm aircraft.
On vox channel we hear stuff like
"Check your fire I am in"
"Break I am in"
"Dammit I am off hes yours"
Hell even HT gave me the
"Wotan check your fire I am in"
I always give a quick look left or right sometimes I dont have a shot due to friendlies pushing for the kill.
Even on jabo runs we call out
"clear the vh(twn fh etc) i am in with ord"
Rarely does killshooter ever bother me. No offense but its mostly guys who fly 50 cal planes that complain over this. If ya think I am wrong due a search.
Thats because they fire over your shoulder all the time. When I see this I give a
"check your fire over vox"
if they keep it up I fly into their stream. F'umm we got to much spray and pray as is.
Killshooter a tool to teach you a lesson. The faster some guys learn the less they will be whining about it.
Lots of folks like it the way it is.
You shoot a friendly you die, just like "always drive defensively"
Well always watch whats going on around ya. 450 guys buzzin around the arena all wanting kills. No body gives a damn if you kill yourself. So whats the answer? Better SA :)
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I think the problem that most people have with the way killshooter works now is that it puts that "risk" on the wrong pilot.
The "risk" should be placed on the pilot flying in front of an already engaged friendly pilot.
Ok...I would prefer that ammo was live and that whoever flew into my guns died. No PNG...no killshooter....just guns on. I believe that peer pressure alone would police your countrymates.
If I remember correctly, from way back in the days of Air Warrior on GEnie, one of the reasons that PNG and killshooter -- or variations thereof -- were instituted was because of the presence of PK twits: people who would change countries so they could pop up on a field with a flakpanzer and blow away all the people who were trying to take off to defend that field, or otherwise deliberately attack 'friendly' aircraft so that their 'real' country would get an advantage. Or just because they were total [CENSORED] who got their jollies out of shooting down people who weren't thinking about having to defend themselves from friendly planes as well as hostile ones. It also reined in the people who would take long-range shots at enemy planes that someone else was chasing closely, which because of the hit bubbles would usually result in the chasing plane taking the hits.
From what I read about other online games, though, the PK twits are still there and just as obnoxious; if HTC removed the killshooter code or trimmed it back so that it didn't provide an immediate 2x4 upside the head of a PK twit, we'd see a lot more friendly-fire incidents. It may not be the best solution, but killshooter does more than encourage people to be careful about firing into a dogfight.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Freakin furballs mean warps.. warps means inadvertent killshooter deaths.. have you guys simply decided to ignore internet reality and have decidied that what the game has now is IT, that it can't be improved, that flaws arn't in there, that improvements cannot be made, that it's freakin created PERFECT now, unassailabe, unimprovable?
[/B]
I have never... never... not since AW started it, and not now in AH... died by killshooter because someone warped into my guns. I can honestly say that it was my fault every time it occurred, usually due to an SA breakdown or because I took a gamble that didn't pay off. You also keep ignoring the fact that changing killshooter to the method that easymo describes won't rid the world of warps or "jokers" flying in front of your guns. The problem now is that the long term consequences of these warps and gloriously unaware killshootees go way, way up.
Can it be improved? Perhaps, but I haven't seen anything better before or since. Easymo's suggestion is at best only as good as the current system, and it lacks the parsimony.
Damn, I've been here since jump street. Paid my dues, even when I didn't fly months at a time.. don't try and tell me I'm overeacting here.. you guys are touting a roadkill kill system that becoming more of a problem as numbers in the furballs and in the MA increase.
[/B]
For you, maybe. Before I killshootered myself the other night, I hadn't unintentionally died by killshooter for four months. Why? Because proper SA and working for the best possible angle negates its impact. You are overreacting, sorry.
You're sounding like an ex-AW guy complaining that HOs need to be artificially "reduced" because they're too prevalent and gamey. Yet strangely, once the ex-AW jocks learn to avoid the HOs, they cease to be an issue. The same is true with killshooter in its present incarnation.
Sayin it ain't a problem, that killin yerself because some warpy guy pops up in front is YOUR OWN DAMN FAULT is cheerleading horseshit... and I'm sorry, I've got pretty good SA.. but not so good that I can line up a deflection shot, shoot and look out the back all at the same freakin time. And if yer tryin to tell me you CAN, yer full of crap too.
[/B]
LOL It's not a matter of looking back or around when you're lining up a shot. It's about noting where other planes are before you line up and keeping a tally in your head of where they're probably going to be when you fire. It's also a matter of choosing the best possible angle and getting as close as possible to the enemy to minimize the possibility of mistakes. In that sense, killshooter rewards realistic combat behavior.
You've now also claimed that a majority of people posting to this thread are full of crap cheerleaders. If most of us don't have a problem with killshooter, maybe the problem lies somewhere other than killshooter itself.
Now, gawdammit, READ the quote below. Explain to me again how much skin off yer tulips this would take??
[/B]
I've already explained my reservations with easymo's approach. Reading it again isn't going to change my opinion.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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modify killshooter to take out guns only, not kill.
Anyone think this too simple?
I think it solves every stated issue regarding current killshooter.
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*sigh*
-- never had a guy warp in front of you?
-- have no problems keeping the speed/angle/time distance calculations for every a/c in yer close proximity in yer head while you line up yer shot...
what?? yer stephen hawkings with a supercomputer, 40" monitor and a console hookup at HTC????
Guess you fly a diffrent sim than me, Todd.
;)
Data point:
Killshooter sucks wazoo.
Data point:
Another solution exists, one that does not penalize me for internet conditions and a MMOG enviornment where more than 32 planes are present in my vicinity.
BUT.. yer tellin me 'no problem exists'
I say roadkill!
Have a nice day. :)
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Originally posted by NUKE
modify killshooter to take out guns only, not kill.
Of all of the alternatives I've read about, this one always struck me as the best competitor to the current system. It doesn't solve all of the so-called problems associated with the current killshooter setup however.
First of all, would gun damage be permanent or temporary? If temporary like the "do not move your controls so rapidly" message, it doesn't act as a disincentive to spray 'n pray. Most people would be willing to risk 10 seconds without guns in order to snipe a kill from over someone's shoulder.
If the gun damage remains until a replane, then the punishment seems overly severe. Remember, it's possible to plink someone accidentally and live. I've done that plenty of times and flown away without damage to my own plane. I'd hate to think that I'd lose my guns by tapping someone accidentally with .303s.
Killing the guns arguably works best when you accidentally put a full on volley into a friendly. If death were the only result from killshooter under the current system, I'd agree that killing the guns would be the best solution. Keep in mind, however, that the guns solution... as well as easymo's solution... do nothing to alter the fundamental gameplay complaints made by Hangtime and others. If warps are causing one to shoot friendlies, then no system is safe for the killshooter.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Hangtime
*sigh*
-- never had a guy warp in front of you?
[/B]
Of course I've had people warp in front of me. What I didn't do was fill them full of steaming hot friendly fire.
-- have no problems keeping the speed/angle/time distance calculations for every a/c in yer close proximity in yer head while you line up yer shot...
[/B]
Obviously I'm not perfect at doing this, as I mentioned my death by killshooter from just the other night. I find that the best way to avoid killshooter isn't to perfectly track other planes in your head, but rather to position yourself in such a way on the enemy aircraft as to render the probability of killshooter negligable.
what?? yer stephen hawkings with a supercomputer, 40" monitor and a console hookup at HTC????
[/B]
Um. No.
Data point:
Killshooter sucks wazoo.
[/B]
I disagree. :)
Data point:
Another solution exists, one that does not penalize me for internet conditions and a MMOG enviornment where more than 32 planes are present in my vicinity.
[/b]
Easymo's solution does not solve any of the Internet-related problems you're talking about, and it could exacerbate the impact of them on your enjoyment of the game. I'm surprised that you haven't noticed this. There are only two alternatives out there, in my mind, that don't penalize you for Internet conditions. The first is to allow your bullets to damage friendly planes without a PNG penalty to yourself. One downside to this, of course, is all the l337 h@><><0r two weekers who would turn AH into a massive friendly fire FFA. The other downside is that you're shifting the Internet blame from yourself to the guy you're shooting down when it's entirely possible that it's not his fault.
The second alternative is to do no damage to the friendly plane or yourself. The downside to this, as mentioned previously, is that it encourages unrealistic combat behavior... namely spray 'n pray sniping over shoulders and through friendlies to try to kill a badguy.
I consider neither alternative preferable to the status quo. Other alternatives... easymo's solution, killing guns, etc. do nothing to counter the sorts of things that lead to you killshootering yourself presently; they merely shift the consequences.
BUT.. yer tellin me 'no problem exists'
That's exactly what I'm saying.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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I'd hate to think that I'd lose my guns by tapping someone accidentally with .303s.
but, but, you never killshooter anybody!! If the other system.. which kills you DEAD is no problem for you... how could THIS be an issue?
...I know, I know.. goose, gander, kettle, pot,..
couldn't resist tho. :)
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Here's THE solution to killshooter: Real time internet connections with a max of +/-5ms ping variance.
Everything else is just an alternative... that ain't no better than the system it's replacing.
-SW
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Originally posted by Hangtime
but, but, you never killshooter anybody!! If the other system.. which kills you DEAD is no problem for you... how could THIS be an issue?
[/B]
Perhaps you have failed to grasp the arguments I've presented.
I have not killshootered myself in a long time... as in died by killshooter. I have certainly plinked people with a 20mm or .303, particularly when trying to clear a plane off of someone's dead six, or when I'm attacking a plane that's diving for a PT boat. Those are what I'd call "calculated risks." I'm willing to risk killshooter in those circumstances with the understanding that, should I die, it was entirely my fault for miscalculating. It's nice to know in a situation like that that I'm not running up some tally that will reduce my lethality until the end of the tour.
Easymo's solution still isn't better than the status quo. :)
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Gremlin
Rude, the two weeks wonder who flys up your rear end and blows you and the bandit away doesnt care about peer pressure. He wont be here in two weeks anyway.
I believe that anyone who acted in a way deemed irresponsible would feel the guns of many others who felt differently....I for one, can assure you that if someone shot up my ride and acted as if they didn't care, would feel the guns of my entire squad until they saw the light:)
The community can police itself....however, like I said before, HT will never allow this. How do I know this to be true? I talk to him often, and he has assured me of that:)
I still think it would be cool...not for everyone, but for me personally.
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It's called Friendly Fire for a reason, and friendly fire should kill (or damage) a friendly. Unfortunately, since it'd be a zoo if you could kill your teammates, Killshooter is the next best thing.
SOB
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Hell, why not enable the "friendly shooter"?! Something tells me that back in WWII they're percentages didn't dwindle to nothing.
Re: I was being chased by five cons, a friendly dove down and got behind the con I was shooting at!!!! Um, long story short, I wanted to reup and shoot his bellybutton down!!
But, I don't think it would be a huge problem, OTOH
Masher
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It looks like my communication skills are inadequate for some of you. And some are just want to argue. For the former. Let me say it this way.
This is just the general idea. It is adjustable. The number of hits that it takes is adjustable. The amount of time, also. Your guns could be weakened just for 2 weeks, or one. Or for a tour. The point is that, when you get back to the tower, you get a pop up that says if you keep trying to shoot around friendlys your guns are going to get weaker, and weaker. GET OUT OF THE CONGA LINE:). And it will do this with out overly penalizing someone for the odd stray shot. Think about this the next time you lose your perk plane to KS.
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You'll always have the Conga Lines. I know that. I'm either 1st, 2nd or I'M NOT IN IT!
Masher
I even have the courtesy to ask the fellow Rooks if I might have knicked them (haven't yet and they DAMN SURE APPRECIATE IT TOO).
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EVERYONE!!!! BACK OFF!!!!
This sim works just fine....let's all just hug.
;)
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Thank you!!!! Here's a Guinness for you Rude! I owe you one next year (I'll try and make it to the Con next year, I won't forget either)
.
Masher / Karaya2
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Originally posted by Rude
This sim works just fine....let's all just hug.
Y'know... that's what I've been trying to say here all along. :)
-- Todd/Leviathn
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This sim works just fine....let's all just hug.
Apologist Cheerleader!!! ^^^^
;)
Damn, I could get into bein a luftwhiner. :D
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Y'know... that's what I've been trying to say here all along. :)
-- Todd/Leviathn
me too, except maybe without the hugging part ;)
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Well, you have won me over. Change can be a bad thing (look what a peice of crap that pizza map was). Hug hug hug.
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Originally posted by easymo
Well, you have won me over. Change can be a bad thing (look what a peice of crap that pizza map was). Hug hug hug.
So what was all that talk about the 'delete' button?
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My only serious posts on the subject.
easymo
Senior Member
Registered: Apr 2000
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 2364
Just put it into the rotation. Hi alt boys should have their turn to.
__________________
Would it kill ya to build a KI84 ?
(Deleted my account)
easymo
Senior Member
Registered: Apr 2000
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 2364
Good. Now I have to think up yet another name to restart my account. Any suggestions?
__________________
Would it kill ya to build a KI84 ?
(Will reinstate, at the start of the next tour.
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Not sure I understand your post easymo, are you saying you weren't serious about quitting or that you already have?
Guess I'll just keep open the account I created in an attempt to get my son-in-law hooked a little longer so HTC won't miss ya too much. BTW, I had him hooked but the line broke, may have been that he got snagged on something, like my daughter.
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What part of (Deleted my account) confused you?
As far as being missed. (will reinstate start of next tour.)
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Originally posted by easymo
What part of (Deleted my account) confused you?
As far as being missed. (will reinstate start of next tour.)
I understand now, your prerogative. Hope you garner more support among those that have threatened to quit because the game isn't the way they want, HTC may but I won't miss 'em.
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What others choose is up to them.
I didn't like the pizza map. Instead of whining, I suggested an alternative (put it into the rotation). When no change was forthcoming, I deleted my account, as a way of "voting". When eventually, a change was made, I posted my approval. The whole thing could have been avoided (and not just for me) had HT chosen to post that they intended to put it into the rotatation at some point. But, thats his business. I can only make my own choices.
BTW. Your posts don't feel like hugs.
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I'm not much for hugs, will a handshake do? :)
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I think I might prefer it :)