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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: hazed- on July 21, 2002, 03:54:43 PM

Title: New bombers......
Post by: hazed- on July 21, 2002, 03:54:43 PM
I dont know if im mistaken here but bombers seem to be very different in durablilty when in a formation.

Basically i have been killed in single passes almost every time im in a formation.the plane comes in fires, pop goes one of your bombers almost immediately.This seem to happen with all bomber types too.

I was hoping 1.10 would introduce the following features

MORE durable bombers able to take more hits.
Less powerfull guns (or effective range) as there was to be 3 or more times the number firing with formations
Wider spread damage through the use of said formations
A way of bombing that required a skill to get good at.

the reasons i hoped this?

well with more durable bombers this would mean you have much less occourance of 'long flights only to be killed in seconds by 1 burst', which i have to say, happened a lot when i flew ju88s. (although on several occations i did take enormous ammounts of damage and survive there seemed no pattern to this and you could never be sure you was going to survive any attack even if attacked by non cannon armed planes)
with less powerfull guns you wouldnt be able to start shooting at 1.4k like you can now on a B17 (i often take pot shots at these distances and ive taken wings/engines/tails off with a few flashes of hits) and again it would be less frustrating on the other side of the coin as a fighter pilot(you too wouldnt find yourself dead at 1.4k from a small burst,also annoying if youve read 'combat crew' by john comer this simply wasnt how it happened)Please remember I play on both sides of this described scenario with fighters and bombers and their interaction and i no more want to see super buffs than i do non combat WW2 aircraft or to see fighters enjoyment affected to appease a lazy player who likes to fly a bomber and want the game changed to suit his enjoyment.I just want to enjoy flying and avoid frustration.
Widerspread damage i think could be solved if we could 'open out'
the width of the formations  bit.As it is a formation doesnt help much if your No. 1 bomber misses. The blast radius on the present bombs is so small that the other 2 sets of bombs from wingmen land,explode and miss just like the lead bombers ordinance.I think that if you make the wingmen drop even a few hundred yards wider it would mean you could finally use salvo bombing with more success. Given that using the new bombsite we invariably miss with 90% of our bombs.Frustrated we begin to resent the difficulty.If we missed what we aimed for but still hit a few things nearby it is a LOT more encouraging.Could we please, at least whilst the bombing is being learnt have a wider formation? we could always change it back when people start to get rediculously accurate again(will they ever? hehe)
A way of bombing involving skill? the new sight? well at first i thought it was a fantastic introduction and, after missing my bombing and then, doing one of the calibration steps a little more accurately (or something:)), i seemed(!) to get better and better. BUT then when i was doing exactly the same steps even at the same targets and getting huge variences in my accuracy I have started to become more and more frustrated with it.This seemingly unavoidable result has really changed my mind about this particular method of sight calibration.
If the varying results were due to a gusting wind then fine id accept it but AH doesnt have wind change.It stays constant so its not as much a factor as in real life.
if the varying results were due to flying and bombing at different speeds then fair enough we'd have to go slower to drop accurately but this doesnt help either.Ive bombed at steady 190 or 200 mph and still i get differing impact points from hundreds of yards short to hundreds of yards long.
What it seems to be due to is how accurately i can track a tiny point with a joystick??
well i am pretty good with this with my present joystick.Although its no easy task to track finer movements with these new digital sticks and I can see no way i could be more accurate unless i somehow employed the mouse(?) to track the floor? but is this really a skill to learn?
we need some other method.
what about a moving line that creeps along as you approach target and you have to hit the drop button just as it passes a 'best drop' marker on the headsup display?
these markers could be set by using the present system but without the dumb joystick marking routine?
Alternatively have a system where you set your speed over ground part not with the joystick but by using keys or perhaps whilst in the look directly down mode you mark an object as it passes the top of the sight and again as it exits the bottom of the sight so that with 2 accurately pressed marks you get a speed readout which you enter into the sight computer.

if my innacuraccy has nothing to do with the 'mark target' part of the process then please ignore this :) but if it turns out that it is because of this then please be aware that my joystick and id imagine several others isnt much good at this fine tracking. or at least its far too tempremental to gain a skill at it .

What i dont want is to stop flying bombers because i cant hit anything even if i do get there in one peice.

I just want to enjoy flying and avoid frustration.ITS WHAT IM HERE FOR :D
Title: New bombers......
Post by: Saintaw on July 21, 2002, 07:04:01 PM
Hazed , zoom in the map to a maximum when setting drop altitude, there are variances that are pretty steep, this will mess your drop.

got a hard time stayin on that target too...
Title: New bombers......
Post by: hazed- on July 21, 2002, 07:52:04 PM
always go full zoom to set it :) but thats another thing that maybe shouldnt be so hard to pinpoint when the huge square of the base is smaller than the icon that covers it.Its hard to be sure the number is actually the base or not.

its all a bit hit and miss for my taste. ends up being plain annoying.

Title: New bombers
Post by: Easyscor on July 22, 2002, 02:35:43 AM
IMO Hazed didn't go far enough.  I've practiced more than anyone in my squad, more than the majority of players in the game, offline, in the Training arena, and in the MA.  As one of the two bomber flight leaders, it fell to me to follow every lead in determining how to master the new bombsight.  I've talked to many on vox who say they can do it but when you press them for the details you find they miss most of the time.
    My conclusion, and I can get close most of the time, is it can't be done with any consistancy and is ineffective.  I have recommended to all my squad members, "just don't do it, it's a waste of time."  For the most part, they've already reached the same conslusion but they still hope for answers.
   This isn't real life with 300 buffs being tasked by allied command to tackle a City.  We're here to have fun, not be frustrated with a system which has no effect on the rest of the game.
    I have a lot of respect for HT but I think they've gotten this wrong.  Just my opinion.
    If there's someone out there who can demostrate consistent results by hitting the intended target, not just nearby targets, I'll shut up but I want to see screen shots of hangers going down, not just a brag, and not with the green training reticle.  One time out of 5 times I can take out 1 hanger.  How many screen shots can you get?

Easyscor
Flight Leader " 113 Lucky Strikes "
Title: New bombers......
Post by: Kweassa on July 22, 2002, 04:06:04 AM
You are missing the whole point of the new bombing system, friend Easyscor.

 Reduce accuracy, increase payload is the new agenda, and thus, we don't see bullshi* 30k buffs smart bombing, picking off single objects with plus-minus 10 yard accuracy like it used to. You can still pick off single hangars, but the question is, why in the heck does anyone wish to try level a single building with a carpet bombing platform consisted of three planes?

 It's a waste of time because it's a wrong effort. If you want to level an airbase, take two friends with you wit total of 9 buffs and just cream the whol area with bombs. Otherwise if you expect to take out hangars one by one like we used to, of course it's a waste of time. How can it not be?

 If you are insisting the accuracy is so random that you can't even put multiple bombs in a single "area", in that case, you are doing something wrong.
Title: New bombers......
Post by: mipoikel on July 22, 2002, 04:25:18 AM
I agree kweassa. Its time to large buffraids like bishes did yesterday. Imagine 30 buffs dropping their bombs to airfield, salvo 100 and delay 0.5 (not 0.05):D
Title: People are going about it the wrong way.
Post by: Kronos on July 22, 2002, 04:41:14 AM
people are getting upset because they aim for a specific target, and cant seem to hit it, either bombs drop short, or too far.  They are getting frustrated because they cant figure out an accurate way of bombing a target.  THAT IS THE PROBLEM.

It's not meant to be accurate.

The way I approach the new bomber system is this.

I take a lancaster formation up,  to about 10K above field elevation.  bomb settings are, 14 x1000 lbs, salvo 14, delay .7
25 miles out or more, I retard throttles to boost 9, then open doors.  Wait till about 10 miles out, and then goto bombsight, and calibrate.

I drop when I see the end of the runways about where my crosshairs are, maybe a little before.  (not on runway, but parallel, depending on what line im crossing the base at.

Watch the bombs fall.  14 1000'lbs at a delay of .7 will cut across the entire field.


You're bound to hit something.  now, multiply that by 4 or 5 persons bombing the field, and the field will be down in short ordder.

Don't expect to 1 specific target, just point your crosshairs in a line that has objects in the way.  It's not 100% accurate, but I can generally get atleast 1 hanger, a couple of fuels or ammos, and some acks, on a medium sized field.

On a larger field, its even easier, because of the amount of targets there.  Smaller fields ovbiously are the worst ones as far as amount of damage to be instilled by one pass bombing.  The only way to get much of anything, is to line up N-S and target a line across a hanger.
Title: New bombers.....
Post by: Easyscor on July 22, 2002, 05:14:52 AM
Kweassa,

I don't think so.

First, flying bombers was one of the best ways for new players to learn the game.  I've read your very good primer on the new bombing model and salute you on the effort.  The problem I have with the new model is two fold.  The learning curve is very steep and after you've gotten reasonably good at it, you realilize for the most part, your efforts will have no effect on the flow of the game.

Sure, you say it now requires teamwork.  Granted.  Twelve of my squadmates upped B-17s to try to flatten an airfield the other day so the Knights could move in and capture a key base.  Of the twelve players, only one managed to hit a fighter hanger and only then, because one of the first to drop reported hitting west and long on the target.

If that's the way we have to do it, fine.  It's not what I expect.  I think others agree with  me.  If you want to call me one of those bullshi* players, so be it, no hard feelings.  I just think there should be other targets besides the enemy Cities unless you want to add one h*ll of a lot more cities and make them SEVERELY affect the region around them.  Then you have to ask yourself, are we going for points and ranking or are you trying to capture territory for the team?

My point?  Bombers are useless at present.  Now the ball is in your court, tell me please, what impact do they have as inaccurate as they are?  All the strat targets can be resupplied within minutes so please, don't tell me about the down times and the resupply system.

This sounds like a personal attack but nothing could be further from the truth Kweassa, I know you for someone with the good of the game at hart.  I just find this whole thing very frustrating.  I know I can hit the target as often as anybody in the game, even more so, but what's the point if it has no effect for the squad or team?

Easyscor
Title: New bombers......
Post by: Angus on July 22, 2002, 05:18:21 AM
For most I agree with Hazed.
What you could do with a single Lancaster before, you need 9 for now.
I never hit a building I was aiming for, regardless of altitude (less altitude giving less error), so I use the carpet strategy.
My best results were actually while bombing in external view, not through the bombsight.
So, now a single 110 will in my hands destroy more than a formation of 3 Lancasters, and I think that has to be fixed.
But how?
Well, maybe the Speed calibration could be on auto, so your task would be to maintain the exact same speed.
Or spread the formation a bit, oe even allow you to set it with a dot command, ".distance xxx yards"?
Well, I dunno, but I think some adjustments need to be made.
Title: New bombers....
Post by: Easyscor on July 22, 2002, 05:37:14 AM
mipoikel wrote:

Imagine 30 buffs dropping their bombs to airfield, salvo 100 and delay 0.5 (not 0.05)

mipoikel,
That's just the problem, you can imagine it, I have to actually pull it off on squad night.

Kronos wrote:

...I retard throttles to boost 9...

Kronos,
Enough said.

Again, the point is, even if you take a group of bombers, some of the most destructive machines of WWII, they are ridiculously ineffective especially in the local theater of operations.  A single Ostwind is more effective than a whole flock of Lancasters and much more survivable.

Easyscor
Title: New bombers......
Post by: Kronos on July 22, 2002, 09:32:46 AM
Ur point of my post was?  I dont understand.

Also think about this.  Maybe HTC didn't design the bomber system with the MA in mind?  Just maybe, they designed the bomber system with MAJOR SCENARIOS, and TOD's in mind.

Its very hard to get individuals in the MA to cooperate and run heavy bombing missions.  And the bombers by themselves are not as effective with just 1 person.   But, in a major scenario, like say BOB coming up for example, each person slated for a JU88 is going to be 3.  Now you will have the massive bombing that was done during that time.  And back then, *SURPRISE* it wasn't all just point and click.
Title: New bombers......
Post by: hazed- on July 22, 2002, 10:26:19 AM
kweassa i use your method of salvo bombing with a higher delay time and yes i can hit bases but NEVER where my calibration says it should.

I  have done 10 pilot bomber missions and basically of the 10 only 1 manages to get the calibration right evn when we have all practiced.I actually DO want it to be hard but i want it to be a skill or at least to have a little more chance of a miss still hitting something than we have presently.
Seems to me we have reduced accuracy by 90% and increased numbers by 200% then reduced their affect by making formation so tight the bombs either all hit (if your lucky) or all miss even if you hit reasonably near.

The whole ballance is wrong for the present bombing technique.

if it stays as it is, highly innaccurate, then we need to widen the formation so we make 3 seperate tracks of craters instead of just one thats slightly wider and next to useless.
If we are going to have to calibrate using the present tracking and marking method then we need an option to use the mouse or something similar so we dont have to use a bulky joystick,
If no change in width of formation then put more small no essential targets on a base so at least you blow SOMETHING up! anything but this SHEER boredom inducing misses as your bombs hit the base but track nicely between the buildings you are aiming for!! Im sick of it personally.
If i have to stay dead straight after calibration then i want some method to line up on a target from a longer distance.As it is i do all the calibration and if im dead lucky once ive finished it the line of the sight passes over a hanger.If it doesnt and i move it(my bomber) over left or right even a small amount the line of the sight doesnt indicate correctly anymore where the bombs will drop
and i miss the damn thing anyway.

Kweassa Im sorry but I know real bombers could miss by miles but they had realistic targets and did realistic damage and those craters couldnt be driven over by an aircraft and nor did they get the damn targets up and running again in 15 minutes.and no c47's could bring in aircraft hangers that produced unlimited aircraft from 25 miles away.if we gonna have realism lets keep it balanced all around eh?

IT NEEDS FIXING HTC.
Title: Re: New bombers....
Post by: AKSWulfe on July 22, 2002, 10:59:43 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Easyscor
Again, the point is, even if you take a group of bombers, some of the most destructive machines of WWII, they are ridiculously ineffective especially in the local theater of operations.  A single Ostwind is more effective than a whole flock of Lancasters and much more survivable.



So wait... you mean they are more representative of what flying bombers in WWII was like?

What alt do you drop from? Standard bomb dropping alt was 18-25K in WWII...

They went from uber-easymode to somewhat more realistic methods of delivering their pay loads... guess no one likes a challenge anymore.
-SW
Title: New bombers......
Post by: Shiva on July 22, 2002, 01:21:46 PM
Quote
So wait... you mean they are more representative of what flying bombers in WWII was like?


As far as your bombs not dropping precisely on the pixel your bombsight is pointing at? Yes. As far as you being one plane among the two hundred bombers flying over the airfield to turn it into a moonscape? Not hardly.

Quote
They went from uber-easymode to somewhat more realistic methods of delivering their pay loads... guess no one likes a challenge anymore.


And, in the process, retained their strategic uselessness because of the irrelevance of strategic targets to anything else in the arena, while tossing what tactical utility they had out the window; there's nothing you can do with a buff group now against an airfield that you can't do faster with jabos. Except for putting more targets in the air for the fighters to shoot at.

But some of us are going to keep flying bombers anyway, in the hopes that there will be some point to strategic bombing.
Title: New bombers......
Post by: AKSWulfe on July 22, 2002, 01:26:01 PM
No, they just can't do what they use to be able to do with one person.

Check this out-> people who fly fighters need a wingman or two to be extremely successful. Always been the case.

Now, after 2 years of easymode bombers need to actually go out in groups to be successful and some guys flying bombers get all teary eyed..

BTW, 200 bombers for an airfield? Nah... for Ploesti oil fields... yes... for an airfield? Not even close.
-SW
Title: New bombers......
Post by: Shiva on July 22, 2002, 02:11:24 PM
Quote
BTW, 200 bombers for an airfield? Nah... for Ploesti oil fields... yes... for an airfield? Not even close.


To be doing sufficient damage to effectively close it? Yes.  During the summer of 1944, 47 B-29s raided the Yawata steel works from bases in China; only one plane actually hit the target area, and with only one of its bombs. This single 500 lb general purpose bomb (which hit a powerhouse located 3,700ft from the far more important coke houses that constituted the raid’s aiming point) represented one quarter of one per cent of the 376 bombs dropped over Yawata on that mission.  

 In the fall of 1944, only seven per cent of all bombs dropped by the Eighth Air Force hit within 1,000ft of their aim point; even a fighter-bomber in a 40 degree dive releasing a bomb at 7,000ft could have a circular error (CEP) of as much as 1,000ft. It took 108 B-17 bombers, crewed by 1,080 airmen, dropping 648 bombs to guarantee a 96 per cent chance of getting just two hits inside a 400 by 500ft German power-generation plant.

Here's some data on  the average % of bombs dropped which fell within 1,000 ft (610 m) and 2,000 ft (306 m) of pre-assigned MPI's on visual missions under conditions of good to fair visibility:


Distance:  |  ---------- 1,000 ft (305 m) ----------  |  ---------- 2,000 ft (610 m) ----------  |                
Date:      | 1st Div. | 2nd Div. | 3rd Div.  | 8th AF | 1st Div. | 2nd Div. | 3rd Div.  | 8th AF |
           |  B-17    |   B-24   | B-24/B-17 |        |  B-17    |   B-24   | B-24/B-17 |        |
Jan-Mar 43 |  18      |   -      |  -        |  18    |  36      |  -       |  -        |  36    |
Apr-Jun 43 |  13      |   -      |  11       |  12    |  32      |  -       |  29       |  30    |
Jul-Sep 43 |  13      |   -      |  19       |  16    |  31      |  -       |  48       |  38    |
Oct-Dec 43 |  25      |   32     |  27       |  27    |  46      |  58      |  47       |  48    |
Jan-44     |  34      |   23     |  41       |  35    |  61      |  48      |  60       |  58    |
Feb-44     |  42      |   26     |  46       |  39    |  76      |  49      |  77       |  69    |
Mar-44     |  31      |   20     |  39       |  31    |  64      |  36      |  70       |  58    |
Apr-44     |  34      |   21     |  32       |  29    |  62      |  43      |  58       |  55    |
May-44     |  44      |   34     |  33       |  37    |  68      |  64      |  62       |  65    |
Jun-44     |  49      |   32     |  35       |  40    |  81      |  62      |  65       |  71    |
Jul-44     |  42      |   26     |  44       |  37    |  73      |  56      |  77       |  69    |
Aug-44     |  54      |   36     |  42       |  45    |  84      |  65      |  72       |  65    |
Sep-Oct 44 |  29      |   32     |  46       |  38    |  61      |  56      |  72       |  65    |
Nov-Dec 44 |  24      |   24     |  25       |  25    |  54      |  44      |  47       |  48    |
Jan-45     |  29      |   34     |  24       |  29    |  59      |  61      |  56       |  59    |
Feb-45     |  50      |   57     |  40       |  49    |  80      |  81      |  69       |  77    |
Mar-45     |  40      |   45     |  30       |  38    |  76      |  73      |  58       |  69    |
Apr-45     |  64      |   58     |  52       |  59    |  91      |  79      |  80       |  85    |
Title: New bombers......
Post by: ET on July 22, 2002, 02:33:23 PM
AKSwulfe.... Since you don't fly bombers much, exactly what is the challenge you refer to. Do you even understand what the bomber guys are talking about.

You mentioned the Ploesti raid. It was the worst planned mission in USAAF history. The B24s went in at 500 feet as ordered. The pilots were dodging smoke stacks.One group who got lost came in from the opposite direction and the planes were dodging head ons. The gunners were dueling with machine gun nests on the ground. They went in without fighter cover. When the mission totals were added up they said that 16% of the planes were lost. That is sixteen percent. The loss rate in AH is probably 90%. That is a far cry from what is happening in AH. I have yet to land 30% of my bombing runs in a tour and I usually try to land.

Whats happening is that in reality more than 50% of the pilots in WW2 flew bombers.In AH, 95% of the pilots are fighter jocks. So the bombers go up against odds that are not the same. Add to that the lack of available targets that mean something to the effort, most guys quit bombing and voice their complaints here.

I see the flights of 3 bombers coming in and I watch them get killed over and over again.So if there is a challenge, they seem to have accepted it. What they are asking for is a fair playing field
where when they do exert the effort, they at least have a chance to contribute to their country's war effort.

Pin point bombing may have been hokey but since not that many guys fly bombers the results were probably closer then what is happening now.

Not every one in here wants to be an exclusive fighter jock or jabo artist or a tanker and for a lot of guys who like to fly bombers the FUN has been taken out the game.

Just my thoughts on the situation.
Title: New bombers......
Post by: AKSWulfe on July 22, 2002, 02:45:27 PM
AKSwulfe.... Since you don't fly bombers much, exactly what is the challenge you refer to. Do you even understand what the bomber guys are talking about.

I see, well I flew bombers way back when they were easy mode. Point and click, that was it. I have tried the new bombing method offline. It's identical to the way B17II does it for the most part. Some slight differences. I got real good at B17II, could hit my target with every bomb. I don't think it'll be too long until I figure it out here... of course, I won't be using it too much in the MA since I find bombers boring as hell unless I'm flying with my squad.

You mentioned the Ploesti raid. It was the worst planned mission in USAAF history. The B24s went in at 500 feet as ordered. The pilots were dodging smoke stacks.One group who got lost came in from the opposite direction and the planes were dodging head ons. The gunners were dueling with machine gun nests on the ground. They went in without fighter cover. When the mission totals were added up they said that 16% of the planes were lost. That is sixteen percent. The loss rate in AH is probably 90%. That is a far cry from what is happening in AH. I have yet to land 30% of my bombing runs in a tour and I usually try to land.

I mentioned Ploesti in terms of planes going to a specific target. Hundreds of bombers rarely, if ever, hit airfields. Couple dozens, yes. Of course, when you send a couple hundred bombers in formation versus THREE!!! then you can expect much higher losses than they did in WWII.  

Whats happening is that in reality more than 50% of the pilots in WW2 flew bombers.In AH, 95% of the pilots are fighter jocks. So the bombers go up against odds that are not the same. Add to that the lack of available targets that mean something to the effort, most guys quit bombing and voice their complaints here.

Bombers rarely go up against odds that aren't the same... most guys don't waste their time climbing up to 20+K to shoot down bombers. If you get a wingman, you got 6 bombers. You get 2 wingmen, 9 bombers.. and so on. It can't be THAT hard to find 4 likeminded indvidiuals.

I see the flights of 3 bombers coming in and I watch them get killed over and over again.So if there is a challenge, they seem to have accepted it. What they are asking for is a fair playing field
where when they do exert the effort, they at least have a chance to contribute to their country's war effort.

So before, they exerted NO effort. Now they exert SOME effort, but they don't want to exert A LOT of effort to really master the new system.. it ain't a wham, bam, thankya mam deal... you wanna have an impact on something? Get 4 guys who have PRACTICED with the bombsight and go wreak havoc. It takes fighter guys a LOT of practice to do really well in the MA... why can't the same be asked of bomber pilots?

Pin point bombing may have been hokey but since not that many guys fly bombers the results were probably closer then what is happening now.

Before they flew unmolested for the most part at 30K and had pin point accuracy. That ain't closer to anything.

Not every one in here wants to be an exclusive fighter jock or jabo artist or a tanker and for a lot of guys who like to fly bombers the FUN has been taken out the game.

So now they get a challenge, and the fun gets taken out... well I guess I can see what you mean... half the "fighter jocks" here fly Spits or something as equally easy.

Aces High
"If it's easy... it's FUN!"
;)
-SW
Title: New bombers......
Post by: Karnak on July 22, 2002, 02:46:48 PM
Please read and comment on this thread:

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=59623

Something that the fighter guys should understand, nobody is calling for a return to lazer guided bombs.  There needs to be meaningful targets, strategic ones preferably, for the level bombers.
Title: New bombers......
Post by: hazed- on July 22, 2002, 04:21:50 PM
I see all the points i was trying to make were completely ignored by you SW.
Its the method of bombsight calibration which Im asking for change in not the idea of harder bombing.
I'll take on any challenge as long as it can be learned and put into practice consistantly.
Ive had good drops where it seemed to work well and thought the sights worked excellently and that 'ive got it' only to have a similar run and miss by huge amounts.nothing done different (yes pedantic types,other than the mark target part!)
I dont call for super buffs or anything to be added, if you READ it i said tougher but weaker gunned the idea being JUST extended engagements with similar results in terms of winners/ losers. I merely said what id hoped for and why.
Ive got a problem with the new system not because it is hard but because its pointless and seems random in its accuracy rather than me doing something wildy wrong.
This sort of 'it was 200 bombers per field in WW2','No it was less',add infinitum pantomime roadkill is typical of how every thread seems to end up.

you take one statement and argue over it endlessly with a new handsomehunked name to call each other every week.what are we now 'buff-whiners'? 'calibration sissy's'? go on make a lame assed name up and start another rant.
Title: New bombers......
Post by: AKSWulfe on July 22, 2002, 05:02:58 PM
Yes Hazed, I missed every one of your points.

Of course, where exactly was I replying to you?

Ah, no where.

So there's another rant, learn to read who is arguing with who's points before you start squeaking aimlessly yourself.
-SW
Title: New bombers......
Post by: john9001 on July 22, 2002, 05:05:24 PM
1st i'm a fighter pilot , not a good one , but thats what i fly, i'll also fly bombers , C47's or a GV, whatever my side needs.

i don't want bombers made harder to damage or easier, don't want the bomber guns more or less powerfull, just want them as close as to RL as can be ( no gameplay adj )

as to bombers hitting targets, RL bombers missed targets also, i miss targets , but i also hit targets, last night i planned to bomb a base we were about to attack, i pulled up a map of the field picked out the targets i wanted to hit ( 2 FH ), figured out the heading i would need , alt  (10k to 12k )( the lower you are the better you hit), salvo  3,( thats 9 1000# per FH )figured out my flight plan, flew there , did all the cal, click one , click two, both FH destroyed.

remember if you can't bomb you can always fly lala7's or niki's or if you really bad spits

44MAG
Title: New bombers......
Post by: Innominate on July 22, 2002, 05:45:40 PM
The bombsight calibration is fine.
The targets are the problem.
Title: New bombers......
Post by: Wotan on July 22, 2002, 06:03:35 PM
bombers are a bit fragile it seems

the calibration model is not a problem

Bombers should not impact gameplay like they could when we had laser guided bombs.

I have seen the effect of good bomb drops on an airfield and at the towns.

In the island map it seemed the factories were incapable of recieving damage. I dropped 3 x 4000lbs dead center with no effect on a training facility.

I have always argued that the roll of base capture should be the job of the jabo.

we could use bigger towns cities factories etc. About the size of maybe 2 depos. But other then that practice. The new bomber model seperates the fluffers from the dedicated bomber pilot/squad.
Title: New bombers......
Post by: Innominate on July 22, 2002, 06:31:43 PM
Lets just remove bombers.

It seems that the vast majority only want bombers as easy targets for thier fighters.  Nobody wants bombers that can have any effect on the game, so why bother having them at all?

I have a better idea, AI bombers! They'll periodicly take off from friendly bases, and fly over enemy fields(without dropping any bombs of course, we cant have them affecting anything)  They would also have no gunners, that might make them too difficult to kill.  This way people can shoot down bombers all day, without having to convince buff pilots to fly them.  Plus you get to avoid the pesky whines about "those bombers killed my field" or "i lined up alone on the buff's six and died"

Then we dont even need bombers!
Title: New bombers......
Post by: Kweassa on July 22, 2002, 07:24:13 PM
Quote
Sure, you say it now requires teamwork. Granted. Twelve of my squadmates upped B-17s to try to flatten an airfield the other day so the Knights could move in and capture a key base. Of the twelve players, only one managed to hit a fighter hanger and only then, because one of the first to drop reported hitting west and long on the target


 Easyscor, if 12 people with 36 bombers can hit only 1 hangar in  a bombrun, I'm sorry to say this but you guys didn't practice enough.

 I checked your scores on a short notice, and I see you have a bombing accuracy of 67%. I use exclusively four engine bombers for bombing, and I have an accuracy of 236%. Other people may have higher accuracy but that is mostly from JABO/attack runs. Mine's almost entirely from using level bombers.

 I understand what you guys are frustrated about, but what I don't understand is howcome I can drop bombs where I want then? This, is obviously not some universal problem. Nobody complained about the learning curve being high when flying fighters, so then, why should anyone complain the learning curve is high with the bombers?
Title: New bombers......
Post by: Kweassa on July 22, 2002, 07:29:45 PM
What I'd like to know is how some people are doing the calibration process, especially the marking of the cross hairs. I've heard of people doing marking sequences to targets closer to them, but I always prefer to find my target on the horizon and mark directly on it. Perhaps that has something to do with it. One thing for sure, any instance when I miss the drops and they fall too short or too long, it had a good reason. When I feel I calibrated things right, I never had an occasion where I felt the bombs dropped in an inadequate place.
Title: New bombers......
Post by: Innominate on July 22, 2002, 07:33:32 PM
There are two things people are doing wrong.

1. People are holding the mark for the minimum two seconds, not long enough for an accurate calibration.  10-20 more reliable.

2. Failing to fly straight and level long enough for speeds to level out.  They climb to target, level for a minute, turn to target, calibrate, and then drop, all while still accellerating.

If you hit long constantly, it's most likely #2.  You really need to fly straight and level for at least 10-15 miles to get a decent drop.  Longer depending on the plane.
Title: New bombers......
Post by: Puke on July 22, 2002, 07:39:56 PM
Fighter guys typically take off with a friend or two or tag along with a big group of other fighters so that there is a coalition of force.  The bomber guys seem to me to be a different breed and want to go it alone into enemy territory.  Survival will require some forethought and planning.  Get just nine pilots together and you have about 27 bombers the enemy has to deal with.   With a couple of escort fighters and you have an imposing threat!  What fighter pilot wouldn't want to tag along with a formation like that and give escort??
Title: New bombers......
Post by: Innominate on July 22, 2002, 07:43:54 PM
Or get nine pilots together, put them in tiffies, bring a goonn, and take a field.
Title: New bombers......
Post by: Kronos on July 23, 2002, 03:57:31 AM
Quote


Originally posted by Easyscor:


If there's someone out there who can demostrate consistent results by hitting the intended target, not just nearby targets, I'll shut up but I want to see screen shots of hangers going down


Check this thread, this is only one mission, but I can reproduce the results probably about 85% of the time.

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=59683
Title: New bombers....
Post by: Easyscor on July 23, 2002, 09:32:12 AM
Kronos quote:

"I dropped just before the end of the runway that runs parallel to my line of bombs, also, I did not specifically target any hanger.  Instead, I ran my crosshairs inbetween the hangers."

This is your definition of accurracy and therein is the crux of the dispute.

Your eggs landed 1/4 to 1/3 of an airfield long, and slightly east of your intended run.  This is relatively consistant for me as well but I have ignored scoring and hit percentage this tour as every run was spent dropping small numbers to observe the results and note what worked best to deliver the eggs on target.

Here's what I've found:
1. Adaquate calibration can be done in as little as three seconds if you have a steady hand, zoomed or not, makes little difference.  All this talk of rushed calibration,  speed settings and such just confuses the issue.
2. Any decent calibration results in an initial impact anywhere up to 1/3 of a small airfield short to 1/2 of an airfield long.  These are maximums.  The easterly drift is relitively constant as shown in you post.
3. 1 & 2 above define a long narrow ellipse within which the initial impact will occur.
4. Only a Lancaster with salvo 14 can be expected to hit anything vital, at least with any reliablilty.  Everything else is just roulette.
btw, all my runs are straight and level for at least 1/2 sector out with 50% fuel.  They are ment to match expected combat conditions.

My definition of acuracy:
The initial impact point should be much closer to the point of release as shown in the scope when calibrated exactly.  Probably within 3 or 4 hanger lengths, not 10 to 15 as it is now.

Other alternative have been suggested recently which have merit but until those are implemented, I think the primary targets for bombers are still the airfields.  They were secondary target in WWII but not in AH.  If you like flying or killing bombers, you shold be in favor of giving us a reason to fly them.

I think I've presented my case as best I can.

Title: New bombers......
Post by: Kronos on July 23, 2002, 10:10:01 AM
Plz note easyscor, the crosshairs in the pic are not where I had my crosshairs on target.  I had to move them via the calibration key to get a clear pic on the damage.

Quote


posted by easyscor

Your eggs landed 1/4 to 1/3 of an airfield long, and slightly east of your intended run.


Umm... the middle line of bombs is where my crosshairs were.  wind had no factor, because I was below the windlevel.  therefore, it was accurate because that is where I was dropping, specifically to get both hangers.

However, I will say this too.  I have noticed that there is an inconsistency in the B17/Lanc drop zones.

For Lanc, my speed is about 160 mph when dropping, and I drop just outside of the end of the runways at a 10K ALT above field.
That usually starts the bombs rolling just about where the outside targets are in the field.

For a B17, my speed is about 155 mph (man 30) when dropping, and I have to drop much farther out, in order to get the same starting points.  This may also be why alot of people are having trouble with the new bomb system.  (with the difference in speed, which is minimal, at the most I should be dropping just slightly closer to the field.)

One difference between my drop procedures and yours is I will start setting up a full sector out, and continue to refine as I get closer to target.  (On average, I re-calibrate about 5 times per target.)