Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: udet on July 22, 2002, 05:49:25 PM
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Finally i got IL2. Not that AH is bad,but I really wanted to strafe troops and see them run around
First of all,the graphics are awesome...and that's not so good. My system is nothing to brag about,but right after I got the game I also decided to upgrade my memory(I had 192,IL2 says 256 reccomended) So now I have 256. The problem,before the upgrade, was that the frame rate was getting choppy when there were many airplanes in the sky.-For instance, a mission with 12 vs 12 was almost unplayable. After the memory upgrade-same problem. wtf?!?!?!?! the manual says reccomended system 600MHZ processor and 256 mb of ram-I have a 733MZ Celeron and that amount of RAM-conclusion,my Video Card is to blame.
Still in the graphics department, the instruments are unreadable at 640/480. Switching to 800/600, with the necessary decrease in framerate, the cockpit becomes much more crisp, but I just discovered that,if I switch to a more panoramic view-that is,so i can see all the instruments-they become quite unreadable again.
Therefore,unless I keep panning around the cockpit or I get a huge monitor and play in 1024/768 the nicely rendered detailed cockpit is not very useful
Btw-reading through the IL2 BB-some people play it wih 3d glasses.
As for realism, since I spent most of my time playing with the 109 F, that's the plane I will use for comparison with AH.
1: Engine overheats quicker when using WEP than in AH.
2: Plane is harder to stall but spins are harder to recover from-makes sense cause the 109 had leading edge slats that depolyed automatically to prevent stall.
3:No stall horn,buffet simulated well enough though so you don't find yourself spinning without any warning.
4:Gunnery-I discovered that I suck.Part of it is due to the frame rate.
5:Strafing troops-I couldn't see any from the plane even though ,after I crashed and started looking around from the crash site perspective, they appeared quite nicely,detailed and running around.
Conclusion: With much lower system requirements, AH still not far behind IL2 in graphics and realism.
IP
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I like the whole engine management aspect of Il2: radiator/cowl flaps, overheat (even without WEP) and overheat damage. I wonder hwo that would effect AH? It would certainly put an end to running a whole sortie on full military power.
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An R-2800 (P-47's engine) was run at WEP for what, 96 hours straight?
Il-2 way over does engine heat. AH over does engine heat.
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What Karnak said.
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So is the issue with WEP more a case of wear and tear (i.e. engine lifespan and reliability)?
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Despite some flaws, IL-2 is enough to stay a classic in flight sim games. Excellent game. I only wish Aces High would someday evolve in that direction in the graphics category.
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UDET, I feel your pain man!
My original system was 256 meg Celeron 500MHZ with a GF2MX.
I could only fly medium detail 640 resolution and it really got choppy with more than 5 aircraft.
I tested on a similar setup 850MHZ ish Athlon... minor frame rate increase even with a DDR Gforce1.
I then upgraded to a 1200MHZ Duron..... MUCH better framerate. At full detail 640 res, I could have a big dogfight at good framerates.
Now I have upgraded the video card to a GF4Ti4400 at 4600 speeds OC. Smooth as silk at 1024 res. However, if I have a LOT of other aircraft around..... still gets a bit low in the framerate. I am using an old 133MHZ motherboard with normal old PC133 RAM.
However, I built a AMD 1900+ with DDR RAM and a GF3Ti200 at Ti500 speed OC.
It runs AWESOME at 1024 res, with UNLIMITED amount of action on the screen. FAR FAR faster than an older generaltion 1200MHZ CPU with a GF4.
So I have a lot of experience with IL and framerates on different systems.
1. A high speed video card will give smooth graphics with a low amount of enemy aircraft or action.
2. You need the FASTEST CPUs to have full action on the screen at once.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
........I only wish Aces High would someday evolve in that direction in the graphics category.
I would vote for good graphics and good framerates (AH) over great graphics and poor framerates (IL2) anyday. I think that AH is evolving at just the right pace as it is graphics wise.
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I bought IL2 6 months ago. Played it about 6 times and shelved it! I tried it online twice, no excitement as AH.
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Six or eight from my old squad in WB have taken to doin the Hyperlobby thing on a regular basis.
Graphics are top notch, engine management is about as much as I would want to be concerned with ( overheats WAY too fast ) And the gunnery is tough. But that's ok, "felt" real. Change your setup to "gore" and when you get shot up, you leak bodily fluids in the cockpit :D I must say it really adds to the "immersion" ;)
Thing is, everyone was into no icons, squint birds, mission based etc. etc. We're going to take off on a course of 137 until reaching................and then.........
And I just looked out of place showing up in a Hawaiian shirt, shorts, seegar and a Budweiser ready to mix it up...
Not my kind of fun :)
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Originally posted by Swager
I bought IL2 6 months ago. Played it about 6 times and shelved it! I tried it online twice, no excitement as AH.
Absolutly :) I really loved Il2 graphix, but could not play it. I am too much used to human opponents, so AI is not any fun for me.
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Il-2 is a lot of fun... of course, it's a totally different thing from AH.
I have a V5 5500, 1Ghz AMD Athlon, 133Mhz 768MB SDRAM (o/cled to 142Mhz), UltraATA100 UDMA 30GB Maxtor...
Basically, it runs pretty good. I figure if I upgrade my CPU to ~1.3Ghz and get a GF4 Ti4200 it'll run a whole lot faster. (more CPU speed means more AI planes/objects you can have in the game, newer/faster video card means faster play online)
Aside from all of the PROBLEMS getting the game to run at peak performance and visual quality on my PC (and I do mean PROBLEMS!!! absolutely no casual PC user would of been able to go what I went through for Il2)
I've owned the game since it first hit the shelves, literally, at first I hated it. Just recently (think when Il2 1.04 came out), I really started to like it. Out of the box, it was an okay game for me.
Now, I absolutely enjoy it. I absolutely enjoy AH too though...
One allows me historical recreation and furballing whenever I want... the other allows me an online war between 3 countries whenever I want.
Ain't no Il-2 vs AH... but if you don't mind flying the Western front for the Russians or Germany, then Il2 compliments AH real well. Kind of like beer and Hooters(the place).
-SW
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Pei it depends on the particular aircraft and engine and conditions. I'm sure there were some planes that had overheating problems when not using WEP but there were many that didn't.
But yeah, a lot of allowable time limits for power settings were based on reliability and overhaul intervals. There wasn't always a short-term penalty for exceeding those limits.
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If you dont have that ubi game portal installed (i dont I use hyperlobby or all seeing eye) the heres the ips for ubi dedicated servers.
il2 servers
205.205.27.79 all planes ez mode (no cockpit etc)
205.205.27.75 1941 full real with blue german red vvs (maybe padlock)
They are dogfight servers that hold 32 and are ok if you wanna jump in and have a quick fight. I hate the box sim / online stuff. So much waiting around for some idiot to hit "fly" to get in the game to see no cockpit mode.
I like il2 and the coop missions are fun. But mostly the good ones are like nopoop described
no icons, squint birds, mission based etc. etc. We're going to take off on a course of 137 until reaching................and then.........
The only way they work is if folks follow the waypoints. Half the time some smart arse goes out on his own by checking the map to see where the red or blue base is and flies directly there to sneak up on those who choose to follow the way points.
Or you get a bunch of noobs who hit there breaks while otr and cause a 8 plane pile up. Or he rams while your waiting inline to roll. If they do get up they get lost.
Offline ai play is boring.
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I would vote for good graphics and good framerates (AH) over great graphics and poor framerates (IL2) anyday. I think that AH is evolving at just the right pace as it is graphics wise.
Right, that's what I'd choose too.
But the thing is, isn't it pretty obvious when someone wishes for "IL-2 levels of graphics in AH" he means sometime in the near future when we have commercial tech available to send humongous chunks of data on-line?
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I don't think I would play IL2 online. The campaign is decent,but some things get annoying quickly. Like the fact that you have to follow your leader at all times. At first I was trying that but i soon got bored of it and started doing my own thing. What are they going to do,courtmartial me? :)
I see that everyone has had or has low frame rate when there is a large numbe of a/c involved,or when getting close to another aircraft.
On the other hand, AH has no problems modelling huge number of a/c, but I experienced significant decrease in frame rate when smoke or numerous clouds are present.
I don't know how the gunnery is modelled in IL2 but I never managed to cause damage from a deflection shot, while in AH it's fairly easy to hit an opponent in a turn.
On this,I really can't tell which sim is more authentic, but AH is much more enjoyable. maybe it's cause I have been playing it for a while and I learned the right amount of deflection,which might be different in IL2.
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Why does someone ALWAYS bring out the R2800 twin Wasp when the subject of overheating an engine comes up?
YES the Twin wasp ran succesfully for 20 someodd hours at extremely high boost when testing the P-47M engine.
It also was used to being run at full military constantly.
But REALITY check here- the R2800 was easily the most over-engineered engine of WWII by far. It isn't the standard to use comparing other planes!
The Merlin and DB engines were both water cooled systems- reports from all sources indicate that these planes could run into serious overheat issues at full military power alone- in WEP you could start the coolant boiling and send engine temp so high it welded itself together in mid-flight.
Thats why Spit and Mustang pilots will ALWAYS make note of the fact they broke the wire on the throttle in combat. It was literally a do or die at that point. And 109 manuals will always point out that the overboost was for takeoff and short periods only. Hell - Oleg has 109 test reports of G6's the soviets tested where the engines could run for as little as 5-6 minutes at full boost pressure before the coolant boiled and the engine had to be throttled back fully and allowed to cool.
Maybe Il-2 overdoes how fast a plane heats up, or how WEP affects things. But in AH there is a lack of some serious disparity in how WEP and overheating affects radials vs water cooled engines.
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i really like every aspect of IL2 with one MAJOR problem..
The view system sucks, thats the only thing that stops me playing the game..
i prefer the view systems in every flightsim i've ever played (cept mebbe dos days) to the il2 system... This slowmo headturn thing is total crap. Yes in reality u can't look instantaneous like we do with 'instant' views in AH BUT .. The brain filters everythin in view as you turn your head... they can't do that yet on a pc...
The snap system is too slow in il2 IMO...
(ww2ol's i prefer)
too many damn buttons to worry about to use padlock which i dislike anyways...
it coulda been great IMO...
SKurj
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Well yes, the view is largely restrictive. Perhaps too much. There have been people requesting Oleg for more lenient views, or programmable ones such as in AH, however, not many people actually feel the difference because most of the on-line hoardes play WITHOUT cockpits anyway(and through some debates, I have seen people claiming no-cockpits are more 'realistic' than overly restrictive cockpit views.. * snicker *).
One trick I've learned is to use every kind of view buttons I can to get angles for visual. Scrolling trough wide/normal/gunsight views, continuously clicking shift+1 to toggle view angles and etc.. it's a real pain. AH might be a little too lenient in the view cataegory, but overall programmable view concept is about the best alternative there is to depicting 3D visual environment in 2D IMO.
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Views in Il-2 can be set to pan or snap, just like AH. Or padlock. You just have to give the game a chance to find it out.
As well as many other things. Did you know that you fire an ammo mix in Il-2 ? Try hitting the ground with a cannon burst. Some shells will make white puffs, some black puffs or sparks.
The game goes very deep, you just have to give it a chance.
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IL-2 is farkin AWSOME... but so is AcesHigh in it's own special way :)
I just lurv getting online in IL-2 and mangling nearly all the pilots in the 'room'.. thanx to the skillz i learnt from AH :)
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Originally posted by Sclew
The Merlin and DB engines were both water cooled systems- reports from all sources indicate that these planes could run into serious overheat issues at full military power alone- in WEP you could start the coolant boiling and send engine temp so high it welded itself together in mid-flight.
In Spitfire IX "pilot`s notes" there is no warning about overheating engine at full boost. I think such thing should be mentioned for sure (as there are mentioned many other details about flying, operating engine etc.)
Originally posted by Sclew
...... Hell - Oleg has 109 test reports of G6's the soviets tested where the engines could run for as little as 5-6 minutes at full boost pressure before the coolant boiled and the engine had to be throttled back fully and allowed to cool.
That is very, very hardly believeable. The fighter which is not able to fly more than 5-6 mins at full boost is useless IMHO. Cannot imagine how LW fighter pilot push throttle back in the middle of combat to cool his engine. I remember an interview with one Finish ace who flew 109G during WWII (the link was here on AH BBS somewhere/somewhile ago), he stated that 109 had very effective cooling system and no problems with cooling engine except if it run with WEP for long time. Either Russian testers did something wrong or they confused it somehow with MW50 use.
czpetr
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Actually that test on the R2800 for the P-47M ran for 300 hours at overboost, don't remember the boost figure, but it was almost double the normal boost. Yes, they were overengineered, bet a bunch of pilots were happy about that :)
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Czpetr
I believe that link about the finnish pilot was on this board and I believe he said there was no problem at running at full power.
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Hristo- the problem is your head is still stuck on a stick. You can't move it around like in AH.
-SW
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Originally posted by Karnak
An R-2800 (P-47's engine) was run at WEP for what, 96 hours straight?
Il-2 way over does engine heat. AH over does engine heat.
This may be true, but IL2 does not have the P47...Most russian aircraft didn't even have a radio. Those that did were chucked because they didn't work. They gladly took the P39 (widow maker) on lend lease and it became one of the favorite AC of the Soviet pilots. Does anyone have any data on the AC of IL2. I wonder what kind of flight model the Mig 3U would have in AH. I doubt if you could find one in the MA.
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Originally posted by Hristo
Views in Il-2 can be set to pan or snap, just like AH. Or padlock. You just have to give the game a chance to find it out.
As well as many other things. Did you know that you fire an ammo mix in Il-2 ? Try hitting the ground with a cannon burst. Some shells will make white puffs, some black puffs or sparks.
The game goes very deep, you just have to give it a chance.
I know Hristo, it is a best boxed sim ever in many respects. But there are 2 problems, which makes game borring for me.
AI.
Game has no dinamic campaign, so no roleplaying. No fun to overplay same mission 10 times. What I did in Aces Over Europe many years ago, I put it on full realism, and played till first death, which made it very interesting even against AI. If I died, I started a new game from beginning. No dinamic campaign makes it impossible.
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Hristo- the problem is your head is still stuck on a stick. You can't move it around like in AH.
I find out new AH features all the time even after playing it since it was released Beta. I still don't think you can use a similar fluid mouse movment view like in IL-2. Maybe you can, I haven't in any case.
Properly setup, IL-2 has a amazing view system, admitting I think I may be bias because i have mouse scroll functions on the Saitek.
I hated it at first till I just sat down and configured and flew it. Until then I moaned and was a vocal critic as many here are.
I like my crow with carrots and taters.
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You missed the point Creamo... it's a "nice" view system. Amazing? Hardly... the mouse view is pretty neat, although completely useless for me. I just use the pan/snap combo view.
The problem is that your head is still stuck on a stick, there is no torso or even neck. It's like you are a robot, stuck in a sardine can. You can look all around you... but you can't get your head up against the glass to get a better view behind you or in front of you and below your cowling.
If it had the ability to shift your viewpoint around inside the cockpit, then it would be the perfect view system... although the pan/snap combo view moves a little too slow for my tastes.
-SW
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Noted SW, but I miss understood the “stick” reference. I thought you were comparing AH to IL-2.
It can be said about most ALL flight sims, is I can sit in my chair and turn full RIGHT with my head to the 6 view, and then LEAN lateral while looking back across the seat to the actual LEFT six view instead of turning completely around across past the instrument panel to do so. Again, that’s a torso limitation of any sim I have tried. I’d like that but it must be a pain to program, and something else to pull of with fingers and hat switches.
As for leaning against the glass, that’s another way of saying AH has a liberal (oh the great debate) 6 view. No point in arguing what limitations are right or wrong.
I feel that the AH 6 view in certain aircraft are way to forgiving, some in Il-2 or say WBS a bit limiting. I’m content to have a personal opinion and adapt to each developers version and know that everyone else has the same advantage/disadvantage in said particular game.
Is Il-2 views “amazing?” Probably not, I should say excellent, fair enough.
Although I do still find myself somewhat amazed to an extent utilizing the Saitek mouse feature for adjustments I can’t get in other sim cockpits, and the zoom to really dig the realistic cockpits and gauges, is, ok, excellent.
edit- Oh yeah, faster pans, that would be nice.
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The lack of a 6 view is somewhat subjective. It's up to who's playing the game whether they like it or not. It kind of makes up for the lack of rear view mirrors many of these planes had. However, that's not what I miss.. the fact that I can't move my head just a little bit atleast to get a better view around the cockpit and around those gigantic cockpit spars (in 109, 190 and Il2 specifically) is a big detraction for me for the view system.
Other than that, it's a fun game. I had a lot of fun playing on a "full real" with padlock 1942 server. Took a 109G2 and proceeded to BnZ a MiG3U (admittedly, he was not very good) and then saw an Il2 which I dove down on and hammered for a while before I killed his gunner and had free range on pelting him till his tail fell off.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the hell out of it... I just think the view system is extremely restricted. AH may be too liberal with some of the planes (the newer ones have better restrictions on how far you can move the viewpoint around), but I find that it gives a better simulation of how a pilot can move around in his cockpit.
-SW
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Fair enough, and a good discussion.
It’s my point what you find limiting “the fact that I can't move my head just a little bit atleast to get a better view around the cockpit” is what I’m saying in IL-2 is possible in almost all of the cockpit view spectrum besides the pure 6 view , which I like. With the mouse view, I can micro it out. Most sims I can’t. Couple it with AH’s ability to view and save various zooms? Yeah, that’d be nice. But it’s a far cry from saying IL-2 puts you on a stick pivot. Takes some creative limited zoom view usage, but the mouse scroll makes up for it quite well.
Now to achieve that, the Saitek makes it hands off, but even with the mouse itself it’s a good start. Pry a limited feature if you have a different hotas, I know.
Bottom line is every game has it’s merits, I just hate crow, so have taken a better attitude towards adapting to software that does things a bit different, being a long time AH player.
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I understand that by manipulating a few of the "other" views you can somewhat achieve getting your head to "look around" the spars... except for those really, REALLY big ones that impair your view very badly. In the 190, 109 and Il2 I'm referring to the top/front spar where the canopy joins the front windscreen.
If I had a way to move my head down about a 1/2", I'd be satisfied... but by using the "gunsight" view and "non-gunsight" view (the ones that in German aircraft put line you up with the gunsight/line you up with the plane and the view that moves your view position back a few inches in Russian aircraft), I can only achieve looking around the more narrow spars.
With the mouse view, I can scroll my view around, but it's still around a fixed point.. if they could make it adjustable then my major gripe about the view system would be moot and I'd be totally satisfied. Of course, it isn't a MAJOR issue with me.. it's not like it's keeping me from having fun.. it's just the only real issue I have with the view system.
I have a X36 setup, but I use the one rotary that works (I assume you use this to achieve the mouse look? If not, please tell me how you did it) to control elevator trim.. dunno if you knew this, but if you use elevator trim when you are taking off (to maintain being airborne), you gain speed a WHOLE lot quicker than you do by holding back pressure with the joystick. It also helps when you are climbing out, I use trim to control my plane for the most part except combat and landing... and my plane stays faster than most other players planes because of this.
The only thing I absolutely hate about Il2, is that in coops you can't respawn (into another plane in flight, if any are available)... you just gotta leave or watch the action. The dogfight servers on Hyperlobby, specifically the ones that are "full real" and typically earlier war ('41-'42), are excellent games and you can immerse yourself for a good amount of time. Coupled with padlock, full real servers simply rock in Il2. I just wish I could go to external view when I land to look at all the neat bullet holes and other various damage I accrue throughout my engagements. ;)
I don't really prefer AH over Il2 or vice versa... I enjoy 'em both but in different ways.
-SW
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Just make your Mouse Cursor on the Saitek Throttle, "Mouse Button, 1,2,3,4 respective". (I think) Then the Throttle Mouse control lets it acts as the mouse and fine tune around views as the mouse itself, but in limited increments. Works really well that way.
Dunno about the spars, I really never noticed then to the point of finding a work around.
I use the Throttle POV3 for all trim, just like in AH, leaving out the rudder trim. When it gets bad, I use keys for the rudder or constant pressure on my pedals as needed.
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Hristo.. I use a hat switch, PAN sucks, and the snap is too slow..
I have spent maybe 10-20 hrs playing IL2, and can't see myself playing anymore (haven't touched it in a month at least) I gave the view system a chance.
If Oleg gives me a view system I can live with, I'll give him the price of the game.. until then.... it can collect dust
SKurj
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There's another really cool feature - if you step outside and look at your pilot, or the AI pilot, you can see them looking at and tracking the other plane.