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General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: fdiron on July 23, 2002, 03:51:24 AM

Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: fdiron on July 23, 2002, 03:51:24 AM
I am a very new vegetarian, going on 3 weeks now.  Decided to stop eating meat-milk-eggs due to the health problems they cause.  An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

So far I have noticed that I have more energy since I became a vegetarian, however I just started running again (got a stress fracture in my left tibia back in april) so its hard to tell which is giving me the energy.  I think I am going to stick with vegetarianism.  I read a statement by the surgeon general that said 65% of deaths in the U.S. are diet related.
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: SC-Sp00k on July 23, 2002, 04:05:15 AM
A guy has celery sticking out of one ear, lettuce out of the other, and a zucchini up his nose.

He goes to the doctor and asks him what's wrong.

The doctor tells him, "Well, for one thing, you're not eating right."
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Innominate on July 23, 2002, 05:53:21 AM
Havn't dieticians, doctors, med students, etc been arguing for years about wether or not those foods cause problems?

Eggs started out being okay, then we were told they're bad for your heart, then they were okay again, and then the yolk is bad, but the white is good.

Anytime studies cant seem to agree, it's most likely that they're all bull. :D

Anyways, you can take my burgers and steaks when you pry them from my cold dead cholesterol clogged hands!
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: fdiron on July 23, 2002, 06:24:56 AM
Whatever you have to tell yourself Innominate....
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Swoop on July 23, 2002, 06:29:26 AM
FD,

if you're gonna swear off a lotta dairy stuff as well, start taking calcium and vitamin tabs to replace all the good bits you aint getting any more.....especially calcium.

(http://www.boomspeed.com/swoop/logo_small.jpg)
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Shuckins on July 23, 2002, 06:35:40 AM
You had certainly better start taking Vitamin B-12 tablets because you can only get that essential vitamin from animal products.  Prolonged deficiency of B-12 can lead to severe health problems with your central nervous system.

We are omnivorous for a reason.


Regards, Shuckins
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: straffo on July 23, 2002, 06:41:14 AM
your not a vegetaRian but more a vegetaLian now ...

being a vegetarian work ... but being a vegetalian is dangerous you will have to eat lot to compensate your "carences"
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: fdiron on July 23, 2002, 07:34:33 AM
Thanks for the advice guys.  I have done quite a bit of research on plant-based diets though.

I'm not real sure how accurate your predictions are Senna.  There are several vegan runners who hold record times for the Marathon (26.2miles) and other distances.  

Beans and whole grain foods are complete proteins just like meat.  In fact, soybeans are the best source of protein there is.  Its not hard to get all the protein you need out of a vegetarian diet.  Few servings of beans here, some brown rice there, some whole-wheat pasta here, topped off with a bit of soymilk and voila!- you get all the complete protein you need with none of the fat,hormones, and carinogens of meat.  Thanks for your concern though.
Title: Re: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Ripsnort on July 23, 2002, 07:48:50 AM
Quote
Originally posted by fdiron
I am a very new vegetarian, going on 3 weeks now.  Decided to stop eating meat-milk-eggs due to the health problems they cause.  An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

 


My Grandfather on my mothers side lived to 97.
My Grandmother on my mothers side lived to 94
My Grandfather on my Fathers side lived to 93
My Grandmother on my Fathers side is still alive (94) and very healthy.
I had a great uncle that lived to 101.

One thing they all had in common.  Meat and Potato's their whole lives.  Butter, and lots of it.  No heart problems, no Cancers.  Nothing.

Now, I'm not argueing that Medical Science is wrong and they were right, just stating that foods don't all digest and get processed the same in everyone.
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: straffo on July 23, 2002, 07:55:43 AM
Quote
Originally posted by fdiron
Thanks for the advice guys.  I have done quite a bit of research on plant-based diets though.

I'm not real sure how accurate your predictions are Senna.  There are several vegan runners who hold record times for the Marathon (26.2miles) and other distances.  

Beans and whole grain foods are complete proteins just like meat.  In fact, soybeans are the best source of protein there is.  Its not hard to get all the protein you need out of a vegetarian diet.  Few servings of beans here, some brown rice there, some whole-wheat pasta here, topped off with a bit of soymilk and viola!- you get all the complete protein you need with none of the fat,hormones, and carinogens of meat.  Thanks for your concern though.


Friendly advice to all my non-french speaking friends

Check the order of the letters !

"viola" <> "voila" (what you wanted to say I think)

because "viola" means raped in french :D

concerning the order of letter I'm a dork too :)
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: fdiron on July 23, 2002, 07:55:49 AM
Now I'm willing to bet Ripsnort, that those family members that lived to old age ate everything in moderation.  Wouldnt a person weigh 600 pounds if they ate only meat, potatos and butter?
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Ripsnort on July 23, 2002, 08:07:06 AM
Quote
Originally posted by fdiron
Now I'm willing to bet Ripsnort, that those family members that lived to old age ate everything in moderation.  Wouldnt a person weigh 600 pounds if they ate only meat, potatos and butter?


Spot on.  None were overweight (Well, Grandma was, but not until a ripe old age of 85) and all ate in moderation, and...they're now coming out with this evidence, that drinking tea after a "fatty meal" reduces the risk of the "bad fat" from adhering to the artery walls.

All drank tea and not coffee and all had at least one glass of red wine, beer, or alcohol beverage, but never more than 2, per night.  One smoked cigarettes for 45 years (then quit) and one smoked cigars until the day he died (1 a day)
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Shuckins on July 23, 2002, 08:21:40 AM
Grain-fed beef and pork are most often cited as the source of much of the heart disease found in the American population.

The main health problem, however, seems to be a lack of exercise which leads to obesity.

Some meats are extremely low in fat and cholesterol and contribute to a healthy diet.  Unfortunately, you gotta go kill them yourself, which seems to be a problem for some city folk.


Regards, Shuckins
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Ripsnort on July 23, 2002, 08:26:36 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
Grain-fed beef and pork are most often cited as the source of much of the heart disease found in the American population.

The main health problem, however, seems to be a lack of exercise which leads to obesity.

Some meats are extremely low in fat and cholesterol and contribute to a healthy diet.  Unfortunately, you gotta go kill them yourself, which seems to be a problem for some city folk.


Regards, Shuckins


oH, forgot to add, all the above grandparents were always active in something, whether it be golf, or walking, or busy in gardens doing semi-strenous work...excercise IS the key to good health.
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Eagler on July 23, 2002, 08:53:01 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort


oH, forgot to add, all the above grandparents were always active in something, whether it be golf, or walking, or busy in gardens doing semi-strenous work...excercise IS the key to good health.


exercise and activity ARE the key

what fuel your body burns is secondary if it ain't burning it :)

on that note I brought one of these home from Sears Saturday:
(http://www.sears.com/data/product_images/fitnessrecreation/large/00629868000-dlv.jpg)

and I never liked to run ...
joy, joy, happy, happy :)
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Ripsnort on July 23, 2002, 08:59:31 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler


exercise and activity ARE the key

what fuel your body burns is secondary if it ain't burning it :)

on that note I brought one of these home from Sears Saturday:
(http://www.sears.com/data/product_images/fitnessrecreation/large/00629868000-dlv.jpg)

and I never liked to run ...
joy, joy, happy, happy :)


Heh, one of the personal trainers at the Gym (A friend of the family) showed me an article whereas 80% of excercise equipment sold retail is not used after 6 months of purchase.
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Eagler on July 23, 2002, 09:21:31 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Heh, one of the personal trainers at the Gym (A friend of the family) showed me an article whereas 80% of excercise equipment sold retail is not used after 6 months of purchase.


hehe, that's what ebay is for :)

did he give stats on gym memberships after 6 months from sign up? :)
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Ripsnort on July 23, 2002, 09:26:18 AM
Oh Christ, don't even go there Eagler!  Heaviest sign up period and attendance is January.  Least sign ups and lightest attendance is Febuary. :)
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Udie on July 23, 2002, 09:43:50 AM
Quote
Originally posted by fdiron
Now I'm willing to bet Ripsnort, that those family members that lived to old age ate everything in moderation.  Wouldnt a person weigh 600 pounds if they ate only meat, potatos and butter?




 NO,  take one look at me :D  it has taken me 4 years to gain 30 lbs that I lost when I had collitis.  Sometimes up to 4 steaks a week :)  


 Let's just not talk about my lungs or arteries ;)
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Thrawn on July 23, 2002, 09:58:25 AM
My wife has me hooked on vanilla rice milk.  I've started to become lactose intolerant over the past couple of years and the rice milk seems to fit the fit the bill.  It tastes good although it is a bit thin.


I, myself am a eatwhatmywifeputsinfrontofmea terian and as she's into organic, healthy eating so am I. :)
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: AKSWulfe on July 23, 2002, 10:00:36 AM
How da hell do you milk rice?
:)
-SW
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Wlfgng on July 23, 2002, 10:40:15 AM
vegie is the way to go.. even though I love red meat.. I've changed to mostly vegan.

no dairy, wheat or gluten, or red meat.

huge difference in health and energy.  Not to mention weight loss (fat loss).
I've been on it 3 months now and it's a huge improvement.

you must eat protiens (as stated above) from soy, beans, etc.
personally I eat a lot of fish but my girlfriend is pure vegan and uses protien powder shakes in the morning as a suppliment.  She's been on it 8 years and hasn't been sick in as long.

oh yeah.. add drinking (within reason) to the list of healthy DO's !

Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Thrawn on July 23, 2002, 10:47:06 AM
Quote
Originally posted by AKSWulfe
How da hell do you milk rice?
:)
-SW



Verrrrryyy small milking machine?
:confused:
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Soda on July 23, 2002, 07:08:35 PM
One problem with being a vegetarian is you need to be very careful to monitor exactly what you eat and typically most don't.  Either that or they use a number of supplements to replace simple, and complex, amino acids that they don't get from their regular diets.  Supplements = chemicals, hard to say how good that is for you.  Some studies feel that vegans, in particular, may infact do long term damage to organs because of a lack of certain proteins that they don't properly substitute for in their lack of meat.

Not saying it's good or bad, but I was a chemist at one point, did a bunch of work in human biology and micro-biology, and I read lots of material.  Lots of great evidence to weight loss, and factors like that, but not a terribly great relationship of those being "healthier" than someone who ate meat and had a good diet.  Exercise was the key to health in combination with a good diet.  Vegans who didn't exercise weren't any "healthier".

Living in Alberta is 90% of living in Texas though.... some people BBQ for their midnight snack :)

-Soda
The Assassins.
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: john9001 on July 23, 2002, 08:35:53 PM
last night i was a vegi (really big salad ), but tonight i am having pork roast, what am i ??

A 1/2 vegi
B confused
C too lazy to cook last night
D normal
E all of the above
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Sandman on July 23, 2002, 08:48:30 PM
They don't do veggie here:

(http://www.in-n-out.com/assets/stores/079s.GIF)

Just be sure that you know what you're missing. :)

(http://www.in-n-out.com/assets/dbldbl.jpg)
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: fdiron on July 23, 2002, 08:52:42 PM
I have not read any reports of vegetarians dying of malnutrition.  There are less than 12 cases in the world where people have been hospitalized for b12 defeciencies.  

The Hindus are vegetarian for religious reasons.  If there were inherint flaws with a plant-based diet, it would have already shown itself.
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Hangtime on July 23, 2002, 08:56:27 PM
vegitarians?

who in hell has time for rufstudmuffine?
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Furious on July 23, 2002, 08:58:12 PM
I have been a vegetarian for over 15 yrs.  

A good book to read on the subject, although it is dated, is "A Diet for a New America".

I think you will find it easiest to go low key.  Most folks will want to start an arguement with you over your choice.  

With the abundance of vegan products now available at the supermarket, it is a great time to try this out, especially when compared to 10 yrs ago.  

Try being vegan in Montana.  Now that was a challenge.  :D

If you need any help, just ask.


F.
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: AKSWulfe on July 23, 2002, 09:13:06 PM
Whatever happened to the food pyramid?

Did it grow fungi and turn into a vegetation pyramid?

If meat is bad, and vegetables are good, why does meat taste so good while vegies taste like boiled ass?
:)
-SW
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Sandman on July 23, 2002, 09:23:01 PM
I want to make something perfectly clear.

I've never eaten boiled bellybutton and I have no idea what it tastes like.

Pretty sure it's not on the menu at the Outback steak house. :)
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: MrBill on July 23, 2002, 09:41:03 PM
The local natives say vegetarian is a old Tiwa word meaning lousy hunter. ;)
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Wlfgng on July 23, 2002, 10:10:56 PM
mmmm... Texas BBQ.. yummmm

hehe.. being mostly vegitarian doesn't mean I don't still LIKE burgers, steaks, and BBQ !!!

note the word mostly.
however, when I do eat that kind of thing I feel it .

read meat is nothing in comparisson with processed foods.
not eating processed stuff, which btw is almost everything in America, is the best thing as far as what kind of food you eat.

excercise and moderation are the keys IMO.

I eat some 'bad' foods that I happen to love, but I do it with moderation.
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: fd ski on July 23, 2002, 10:24:05 PM
Udie, enjoy it while it lasts.
Your metabolism will go to toejam as you get older.
5 years ago i could each whole fricking cow and not put on the pound.
Today i each what i would consider half the breakfest then, and have trouble keeping weight off.

All good things come to an end :)

As for vegetarian stuff:
Humans developed a brain due to meat consumption. Didn't they ?

Mother nature has the things the way they are for a reason.
Not that we all couldn't use more greens in our diets.
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: funkedup on July 23, 2002, 10:31:47 PM
I ATE A BABY!!!
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Hangtime on July 23, 2002, 10:34:17 PM
GET IN MY BELLY!
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Elfenwolf on July 23, 2002, 10:51:19 PM
I am a vegetarian because it is against my principles to murder animals. I used to raise chickens and I'd eat them whenever one would die but I got sick so I quit.
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: capt. apathy on July 23, 2002, 11:25:23 PM
My ancestors spent thousands of years fighting their way to the top of the food chain.  To become a vegetarian would be a betrayal.


Btw ditto on the processed foods statement.  I cut out the Pepsi early this year, and switched to mostly water and occasionally juice to drink.  that was the biggest and hardest change(the caffine withdrawal headaches are a real squeak for about a week) the only other real change is I've switched to fresh fruit for snacking, but i still eat whenever I'm hungry and as much as I'm hungry for(accept that I found with the increased water intake I had a much lower appetite).  
I've lost weight steady ever since (7-15 lbs per month)
Anyway the Dr. was saying that aside from the appetite effects I was getting about as many calories from soda as I was from food.
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Elfenwolf on July 23, 2002, 11:37:44 PM
Quote
Originally posted by AKSWulfe


If meat is bad, and vegetables are good, why does meat taste so good while vegies taste like boiled ass?
:)
-SW


Anything that tastes good or makes you feel good is the DEVIL!
(BTW Hangtime, you're frigging killing me today.)
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Toad on July 23, 2002, 11:40:52 PM
Elf, you probably shouldn't have let them lay dead there in the chicken yard in the hot sun for two weeks before you ate them.
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Hangtime on July 24, 2002, 12:13:29 AM
they wern't dead.

..and it wasn't chicken.
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Shuckins on July 24, 2002, 11:09:17 AM
Animals have been killing each other for food for billions of years.  It is an essential part of nature's population control system.  

Therefore, isn't it a bit silly to talk about "murdering" animals for food?  Or to talk about how "cruel" or "evil" it is?  Can't we play the part of the predator without being condemned for it?

Regards, Shuckins
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Ripsnort on July 24, 2002, 11:16:26 AM
Quote
Originally posted by fd ski
Udie, enjoy it while it lasts.
Your metabolism will go to toejam as you get older.
5 years ago i could each whole fricking cow and not put on the pound.
Today i each what i would consider half the breakfest then, and have trouble keeping weight off.

All good things come to an end :)

As for vegetarian stuff:
Humans developed a brain due to meat consumption. Didn't they ?

Mother nature has the things the way they are for a reason.
Not that we all couldn't use more greens in our diets.


They told me that at age 20, that by 30 I'll start retaining weight....at age 30 they said "by age 40..."  Now at 42, I STILL eat ANYTHING I want and not gain an ounce...I once ate a WHOLE BOSTON CREAM PIE in one sitting (over 2 hours) and I LOST weight the next day.  The only way I can gain weight is by lifting weights.  

So, in summary, its all in the genetics! ;)
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: lazs2 on July 24, 2002, 11:24:49 AM
plant eaters have big flat , blunt teeth while carnivores have sharp pointy teeth.  Omnivores have both.   Humans are omnivores.

being a vegetarian make you wimpy.   As I get older and slower I pray that the only fights I get into will be with vegetarians and pot smokers.  

Oh I woulda said "and with other old farts" but after seeing the beating that elfenwolf took at Robert Conrads hands...
lazs
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Wlfgng on July 24, 2002, 12:15:53 PM
lol.. you might wanna rethink that laz...
I'm both and I'd venture to say I'd do better than hold my own.

ask my hockey team :)
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Elfenwolf on July 24, 2002, 12:21:24 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
Animals have been killing each other for food for billions of years.  It is an essential part of nature's population control system.  

Therefore, isn't it a bit silly to talk about "murdering" animals for food?  Or to talk about how "cruel" or "evil" it is?  Can't we play the part of the predator without being condemned for it?

Regards, Shuckins


Why, you WOULD be right, Shuckins, except for one small fact- We have evolved into Humans, are the dominant species on the Planet, and have an obligation to act with beneveloncy in our interactions with Earth's less evolved creatures.

If the term "murdering" offends you then let's substitute "slaughtering" as the descriptive verb for this action then. It makes it sound more sanitary with less guilt, but ask the deer in the forest who's been shot to describe what has just happened to him and he'll say he was murdered.

Actually I think it's not silly but rather sad that we slaughter Earth Mother's creatures for sport. For every hunter who wishes to shoot a forest creature there's a person like me who would be willing to donate a kidney to an ailing bear or deer.

Oh, and Robert Conrad never beat me up, Lazs. He stood on the box he uses for his close-up shots, grabbed my testicles and jumped. Then he fired me. :)
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Ripsnort on July 24, 2002, 12:25:03 PM
Shuckins, whatever "Wolf Cryer" is saying, just keep this in mind with his posts:

(http://www.cuttermotors.com/jon_shafer/hook_up.gif)

Never take anything seriously that comes from him ;)
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Shuckins on July 24, 2002, 12:44:34 PM
Ripsnort,

;) I'm beginning to catch on!;)

Regards, Shuckins
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: lazs2 on July 24, 2002, 12:54:33 PM
wlfgng...  I don't need to rethink anything.    I not only stand by my oriiginal statement but will  add that I hope the pot smoking veggie wimp is from some yuppie liberal  colorado town.  

elfenwolf....  sure that was how it started... sorta...  but I was talking about the recent event where he beat you sensless  for stalking him and not keeping your hands to yourself.    The beating was so severe that it looked like you jumped off a bridge face first into a bunch of rocks.    I do admire you for not sueing tho.  Don't you think all the lawsuit thing is getting out of hand?
lazs
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Wlfgng on July 24, 2002, 05:53:19 PM
lol, how little you know :)

bring that tiny little , sausage-encrusted, flatland-carcus up here and well see who leaves who in the dust

oh.. and liberal ?!?!   LOL
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: funkedup on July 24, 2002, 06:00:39 PM
BTW I'm now a vagitarian.
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: rosco on July 24, 2002, 07:49:13 PM
IMO if you have a psychological problem with eating meat then dont. Your a whacko but a harmless one and only hurting yourself."probably"
 
  I dont know much about vegan diets but I do know certain veggies and grains eaten together form complete protein's which your body needs for muscle regeneration and other bodily functions. I doubt you would get enough though, a protein suppliment would probably not be a  bad idea.I have no idea what other "suppliments" you would need as well. One thing I am sure of though, is real food is better than suppliments. Why take calcium when you can drik milk. Its better for you, and has other good stuff in there as well.

 I put vegans on the opposite end of the spectrum as a lot of the teenage hulk hogan wanabe's at the gym who gulp down protein bars, shakes, pills ect ect...Eat some food would ya! If you get your protein,carbs and "good" fat..Yes you need fat...from real food, eat lots of veggies with it, then the rest falls into place. As far as loosing weight goes, eat less of the same stuff and run around more and youll loose weight.  

  What would do you more good then not eating meat would be not eating processed foods. For example, dont buy lunchon meat, buy a roast of beef or chicken breast and make your sandwiches with that, eat whole wheat bread instead of white...You would be much better off then   eliminating meat all together from your diet.
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: fdiron on July 24, 2002, 08:07:23 PM
I'm getting the impression that some of you think that meat is some miracle-food that everyone needs.  Meat is just protein (and fat usually) with no fiber.  Oh yes, my body absolutely needs that.  AFAIK, there is no type of meat that has less than 70mg of cholesterol per 3.5oz portion (trout).  Most, if not all plant foods have 0mg cholesterol per same size portion.
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Wlfgng on July 24, 2002, 08:15:08 PM
I agree with both of ya's..

balance is good.

and

a lot of fat is bad.


I do eat fish btw.  In fact, I usually catch them in my back yard so I know they're fresh.  

You can, if you really want to, be completely healthy with plenty of protien from just veggies... but it's pretty tough and you have to work at it all the time.
I prefer a little meat here and there to balance things out.  I rarely, if ever, eat red meat anymore.  I used to, being from the south, be a 'meat and potato' kind of guy.
Age also has something to do with it  :eek:
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: rosco on July 24, 2002, 09:09:17 PM
Quote
Originally posted by fdiron
I'm getting the impression that some of you think that meat is some miracle-food that everyone needs.  Meat is just protein (and fat usually) with no fiber.


 Nope, Beef has B-vitamins, zinc, iron, lots of other good stuff. Its not a miracle food, but its a good part of a balanced diet.


 BTW I eat beef two or three times a week, and lots of chicken, eggs, turkey, fish. Basicly I eat some meat, or drink some milk with every meal, including breakfast. My total colesteral HDL and LDL together, was 4.58 mmol/L "millimoles per litre"as of around a year ago.  5.2 or less is ideal, above 6.2 is really bad. So saying eating beef will give you high colesteral is BS.

Tip, dont eat hamburgers with fries everyother night. Try a lean cut grilled steak and a baked potato, with light sour cream instead of butter
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: fdiron on July 25, 2002, 03:51:01 AM
I did not say that eating meat would give you high cholesterol.  I said that meat has at least 70mg of cholesterol in a 3.5oz portion compared to 0mg in plant foods.  Also, eating too much protein causes a person's body to actually lose calcium.  This could possibly be the reason that the U.S. has the highest incidence of osteoperosis in the world.
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Ripsnort on July 25, 2002, 08:23:09 AM
Quote
Originally posted by funkedup
BTW I'm now a vagitarian.


I bet your starving...:D
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: lazs2 on July 25, 2002, 08:42:49 AM
well gee wlfgng... then I guess you aren't really a vegetarian are you?  Actually... I guess it's fair to say that neither onhe of us knows much about the other eh?  Except.... you are a tough guy that smokes pot.... according to you.
lazs
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Wlfgng on July 25, 2002, 09:04:44 AM
hence the term  "mostly"

but not lard-assed, but like I said, you're welcome to come find out for yourself.
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: fdiron on July 25, 2002, 09:38:26 AM
The animal that kills more people per year than any other in Africa is a vegetarian.  Anyone care to guess what it is?
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Shuckins on July 25, 2002, 09:40:41 AM
The hippo kills more people in Africa than any other animal...followed by the hyena I believe.


Regards, Shuckins
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: fdiron on July 25, 2002, 09:43:06 AM
Correct!  Hippos are especially ferrocious at night
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Masherbrum on July 25, 2002, 09:46:21 AM
Wlfgng - I could only imagine what those fish tasted like!  Fish is my fav.

Now I eat venison and I do not shoot Deer "for sport".  Is shoot deer because I eat the venison.  It tastes better than the "Knocked in the head with a sledgehammer, cow toejam steppin, now I have mad-cow disease, storebought fat filled toejam!"

Jim Fixx died while jogging, it doesn't matter what you do in life, someone is over us, and HE knows when you're number is up.  What does matter is how often you get your fat bellybutton off of the couch and stay active, sex, running, gardening, sex, you get the point.

Marathon runners will drink one beer a day.  Did you know that?

It comes down to the fact that Ripsnort is right about Metabolism.  He hit it right, I knew a buddy at Adrian College, that could eat 6 FULL TRAYS of Cafeteria food for Dinner and he still weighed 130lbs.  Don't believe me?!  His hands trembled because his metabolism was so high.  

Colon cancer runs in my family but that will NOT stop me from eating red meat.  I stay active and eat in moderation.

Masher
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: lazs2 on July 25, 2002, 11:38:48 AM
A lot of pot smoking vegetarians look like hippos.
lazs
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Wlfgng on July 25, 2002, 11:46:53 AM
maybe where you're from laz.. around here there are lots of them.. and most are athletes.

no not bowlers or golfers or video gamers that post on BBS's about qua.. er furballing... athletes
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Elfenwolf on July 25, 2002, 12:48:53 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Wlfgng
maybe where you're from laz.. around here there are lots of them.. and most are athletes.

no not bowlers or golfers or video gamers that post on BBS's about qua.. er furballing... athletes


Wlfgng, I DARE you and your fellow Bronco fans to put on your Orange Crush gear, drive your snowmobile to the Colorado border, hop on a bus or hitch hike on out here for a Raiders game. In fact I DOUBLE DOG dare ya. Lazs will be the guy with the spiked shoulder pads, silver and black face and crazy look in his eyes.
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Wlfgng on July 25, 2002, 12:56:11 PM
done that before.

actually I used to live in Oakland before they moved to LA (and back).
my old stompin' grounds :)

and...   I don't like the donkey.. bronco's.
I'm a hockey fan.

but a double-dog dare ?   hmmmm.....
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Elfenwolf on July 25, 2002, 01:05:41 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Masherbrum


Colon cancer runs in my family but that will NOT stop me from eating red meat.  I stay active and eat in moderation.

Masher


Lung cancer runs in my family but that will NOT stop me from smoking. I stay sedimentary and smoke in moderation.:rolleyes:
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Wlfgng on July 25, 2002, 01:09:38 PM
lol
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Masherbrum on July 25, 2002, 01:21:57 PM
I forgot, you are always right, what the diddly was I thinking? :confused:

Masher
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: lazs2 on July 25, 2002, 02:31:26 PM
Ok so... wlfgng is a pot smoking omnivore who is really from oakland.    Haven't figured out the tough guy part yet.
lazs
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Wlfgng on July 25, 2002, 02:41:25 PM
yech.. didn't say I was FROM Oakland...

merely lived there.

as for the rest, the point wasn't about being a 'tough guy', as you put it... the point is that you don't know what you're talking about.
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: gofaster on July 25, 2002, 02:49:34 PM
Don't go full vegetarian and expect to keep running.  Runners' dietary needs are different from normal people. For one thing, us runners need more carbohydrates than normal people.  For another, we need more iron (to help the blood transport oxygen).

Runner's World has a very good nutrition column and they repeatedly warn against going full-veg.  They recently had a special feature where a runner actually followed the USDA Food Pyramid for everyday needs, which calls for more vegs than most people take in during a normal day.  He felt a lot better at the end of his experiment, but had to make some hard adjustments to his lifestyle of sugars and caffeine.  Most likely, your improved energy level is a result of your substituting vegs for other foods and are meeting the USDA recommended allowances for fruits and vegatables, but not because you're cutting out meat, eggs, and diary.

Its ok to take in lean meat.  You need the protein and the iron.  Egg whites are a good source of protein (just don't fry with butter).  Skim milk will reduce the fat intake and still provide the calcium and vitamins.

There's a reason why I chose my handle. :)
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: MrBill on July 25, 2002, 02:49:53 PM
Just before dawn I went to the cooling house and got a gallon jug of milk that had been in the cooler overnight.  We skimmed about a pint of cream off the top, some for the coffee, and the rest we made a big batch of sausage gravy out of. Fried up some fat back and eggs, baked some biscuits and had breakfast.  Come lunch time we ate the leftover biscuits and bacon, bout 20 ritz crackers and half a jar of peanut butter.  Sundance had a measure of oats and alfalfa hay for breakfast, and mountain meadow grass for lunch.  When we get down the mountain I'll give Sundance another measure of oats and turn him out into the pasture for a bit.  Then I'll go check on those pork ribs I put in the smoker before we left, bake a potato or two douse the potato in home made butter from the cooling shed, wave a piece of parsley at it, and eat dinner, Home made Ice cream made with real cream for dessert.  Then milk Bessy and put the milk in the cooling shed so we can do it again tomorrow.
  Question: do you think we're eating right? Or getting enough exercise?

:D :D :D
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: lazs2 on July 25, 2002, 02:57:19 PM
Oh.. I don't know.. I'm not the one claiming to be a meat eating vegetarian.    

my point remains... If I have to get in the ring with you I would just as soon it be after you smoked a really powerful joint.   I would just as soon you had been living on celery for a month or so previously too.   So far as I know I have never been in the ring with a vegetarian.    So far as I know none of the boxers I knew were vegetarians.

So yeah... If i got a choice I wanna get in the ring with a pot smoking vegetarian.    
lazs
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: gofaster on July 25, 2002, 02:59:29 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
The hippo kills more people in Africa than any other animal...followed by the hyena I believe.


Regards, Shuckins


Another true story:

Here in Florida, the state purchased a private/commercial zoo to use as a public park.  As they were a government entity, they didn't feel right about having non-native animals in the park, so they started trading/selling animals and bringing in native species.  One of the animals they were looking to get rid of was a hippopatamus named Lucifer.  When the state advertised the hippo for trade/sale, there was a public outcry from the local population - it seemd Lucifer was one of the crowd favorites.  So, the state decided to keep Lucifer and split a section of his watering hole off to display aligators.

One night one of the gators managed to breach the retaining wall and get into Lucifer's play area.  Security heard some splashing, but just thought it was the gators doing a gator thing.

Next morning, the keepers found the gator back in his pen with 2 feet missing off the end of his tail.

Lucifer doesn't like to share.

If you come to Florida, visit Homosassa State Park and see the manatees.  And stop by Lucifer's play pen and see the bob-tailed gator.
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Elfenwolf on July 25, 2002, 03:49:17 PM
Quote
Originally posted by MrBill
Just before dawn I went to the cooling house and got a gallon jug of milk that had been in the cooler overnight.  We skimmed about a pint of cream off the top, some for the coffee, and the rest we made a big batch of sausage gravy out of. Fried up some fat back and eggs, baked some biscuits and had breakfast.  Come lunch time we ate the leftover biscuits and bacon, bout 20 ritz crackers and half a jar of peanut butter.  Sundance had a measure of oats and alfalfa hay for breakfast, and mountain meadow grass for lunch.  When we get down the mountain I'll give Sundance another measure of oats and turn him out into the pasture for a bit.  Then I'll go check on those pork ribs I put in the smoker before we left, bake a potato or two douse the potato in home made butter from the cooling shed, wave a piece of parsley at it, and eat dinner, Home made Ice cream made with real cream for dessert.  Then milk Bessy and put the milk in the cooling shed so we can do it again tomorrow.
  Question: do you think we're eating right? Or getting enough exercise?
:D :D :D



...And then you'll spend about four hours on the toilet, turning red from the effort it must take you to have your weekly constitutional...

Answer: It sounds like Sundance is eating right PLUS getting all the exercise. You sound like a future triple bypass.
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Modas on July 25, 2002, 04:34:05 PM
Quote
Originally posted by AKSWulfe

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If meat is bad, and vegetables are good, why does meat taste so good while vegies taste like boiled ass?
:)
-SW [/B]


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


LOL!!!  I got a mental image there that has picked up my whole day.  Up until this point, I was having a crappy day at work..

thanks for the laugh!
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Wlfgng on July 25, 2002, 04:41:38 PM
Laz:    
Quote
Oh.. I don't know.. I'm not the one claiming to be a meat eating vegetarian.
 

Wlf:
Quote
vegie is the way to go.. even though I love red meat.. I've changed to mostly vegan.


like I said.. again.. mostly.

and as for fatties.. I wait until AFTER the action.
see that's the whole idea.  for relaxation purposes.

tends to curb violent tendancies that's for sure.  hence my point on the dangers associated with pot as compared to booze.

putting all pot-smokers in the same group is like putting all the raider-fans in the same group.  Some of them actually have personalities and probably brains too, dunno.

now if we're talking about wake-and-bakers, then yeah, I'd have to agree.  but don't count on it...  I tend to disagree with everything you say :)   it's more fun than trying to read your posts.
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: MrBill on July 25, 2002, 05:36:25 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Elfenwolf

Answer: It sounds like Sundance is eating right PLUS getting all the exercise. You sound like a future triple bypass.


Oh, I forgot to add, that wasn't me it was my dad.  Up on the mountain he usually was mending or stringing wire, no shirt, in the sun all day.  Or on some other labor.  Pan fried corn bread another of his favorites had to be made with rendered lard or it just did not taste right.  If not pork it was beefsteak, ("just run the cow by and I'll cut off what I want, it'll be warm enough") or ham or sausage (he made his own sausage, store-bought didn't have enough fat to have any flavor according to him).  And his ice cream "always" had peaches in it.  If not ice cream, it was stale cornbread peaches and cream.  I can't even picture him without a unfiltered camel hanging out of his mouth.
 Well, sure enough, it killed him! He was born in Feb. '06 and died Oct. '01 on a monday, ... the previous friday, he had played 18 holes of golf.
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Wlfgng on July 25, 2002, 05:42:32 PM
the clue here was the fact that he was active and probably worked and played hard his whole life.

I'm sure the lard didn't help though.
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: lazs2 on July 25, 2002, 05:47:25 PM
wlfgng...
"veg?e?tar?i?an    (vej?i tār?? ?n)  n.1. a person who does not eat or does not believe in eating meat, fish, fowl, or, in some cases, any food derived from animals. ? adj.2. of or pertaining to vegetarianism or vegetarians. 3. consisting solely of vegetables. [1835?45; VEGET (ABLE) + -ARIAN]"

I don't see "mostly" anywhere.    I tend to think in absolutes when it comes to things like "vegetarian"  and "pregnant" and "dead".

Quote from wlfgng...... "I tend to disagree with everything you say  it's more fun than trying to read your posts."  

Huh?   I understand this everybit as much as anything else you write.  Maybe it's just me but this too seems ah... "conflicted"   Oh well... it could just be me... I have never had much luck understanding 99% of the guys who use some derivitive of "wolf" in their handle.
lazs
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Wlfgng on July 25, 2002, 11:19:46 PM
mostly.. as in,   most
as in:
  I've dated mostly cute girls,
  I like most of the things I do at work,
  most of the time I don't bother to reply to your posts.

sometimes I agree, sometimes I don't.

whew, tough to understand all those variations of black and white...

and yes.. Wolf
also tough to understand.
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: fdiron on July 26, 2002, 04:38:56 AM
Situtation update- This sunday I will have been 21 days meat/dairy free.  Been working out at the gym, running (increasing my mileage also), and working for UPS.  If there are any inherent flaws with my diet, they should have shown themselves by now (or soon).  

Thanks for telling me how dangerous vegetarianism is guys.  I have already made out my will (since I will drop dead soon from lack of animal meat).  Maybe at the next AH Con the vegetarians can challenge the meat-eaters to a 5K race?
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Daff on July 26, 2002, 07:04:32 AM
" Maybe at the next AH Con the vegetarians can challenge the meat-eaters to a 5K race?"

I'm a crap runner, but I'll offer a 10 mile bike TT instead.

Oh yeah..as for lifestyles: Knew a pitcher who was most likely heading for the national team. Was as fit as anything, didnt smoke, didnt drink, lived in a nice clean sub-urban enviroment and died a tthe age of  21 from lungcancer.

Daff
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Wlfgng on July 26, 2002, 09:04:38 AM
I'd definately participate.. but on mtn bike :)
running sucks IMO but climbing steeps .. and downhill single tracks..    my idea of fun
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: gofaster on July 26, 2002, 09:07:23 AM
Quote
Originally posted by fdiron
Thanks for telling me how dangerous vegetarianism is guys.  I have already made out my will (since I will drop dead soon from lack of animal meat).  Maybe at the next AH Con the vegetarians can challenge the meat-eaters to a 5K race?


You're on!

Oh wait, I can't make it to the con.

Maybe next year.  Besides, I prefer 10Ks.  5Ks are over too soon.

Today's meal: I have to make a Wal-Mart trip so it'll be a plain McDonald's hamburger and a small soda (probably lemonade flavoring with sugar water) at the strip mall, then steamed vegetables and oven-baked potatoes from the cafeteria downstairs.  They charge $5.25 for a burger with veggies in the cafeteria, but only $1.50 for the potatoes and veggie sides.

My 5K PR: won my age group some years back with a time of 21:18.  Not lightning fast, but I had only been training a couple of years. One thing in my favor was that I had reduced my dairy intake in order to control my fat intake, and was also scared off by dairy farmers injecting cows with female hormones in order to increase milk production.  My PR in my current bracket (35-40) is 24:30.  The key differentiator is that I'm running less and working more.  I'm also doing AH until all hours of the night and not doing my morning runs.

You don't need red meat if you can get the iron through salmon instead.  I'm becoming more and more of a fish fan, but can't find a fish restaurant with a drive-thru.
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Wlfgng on July 26, 2002, 09:15:36 AM
yummm
(http://www.nick-tucker.com/yumm.jpg)
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: lazs2 on July 26, 2002, 09:23:48 AM
wlfgng said... "lol.. you might wanna rethink that laz...
I'm both and I'd venture to say I'd do better than hold my own. "

This was in reply to me saying I hoped I only had to fight pot smoking vegetarians.   Now.... you claim that you are a meat eater who really doesn't smoke pot except... I don't know, what did you say?   something about when it was ok or you didn't have to do anything important ... in any case.. you wouldn't be smoking a big fat powerful joint just prior to stepping into the ring.   So.... I would be stepping into the ring with a non vegetarian non pot smoker.  

So.... rather than being "both"... u are neither.     You are simply someone who does things in moderation... nothing wrong with that... best way IMO but.... using yourself as an example of either a pot smoker or a vegetarian was not accurate.

The other "mostly" stuff is real mostly stuff.   we all do that.   Nobody get's "mostly" pregnant or mostly vegetarian or mostly dead tho.

As for the 5k (what's a k) race... Are you guys saying that I can't find a meat eater that will beat you in a 5k race?   or... are you  claiming that running 5k is a useful skill or... that running 5k is an indicator of overhealth or...   or what?
lazs
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Wlfgng on July 26, 2002, 09:32:56 AM
again...    MOSTLY vegetarian.  not hard to understand for MOST people.  
and I agree.. moderation is the key.
btw.  I don't smoke pot anymore either.  
You decided to belive so I went along.
But I will stand by my original assessment of the fact that not all pot smokers are lazy, fat and weak.   Same with veg heads.

as for the running... it's a good indication of overall health but primarily geared toward a certain body type.. I.E. light frame, high energy.

on the other hand you can have a healty 'heavy' body type also.. wrestling, judo, weight lifting etc..

a better 'test' would be something multi-disciplined.

swim,bike,run or something.
or better yet..   Hockey!! yeah baby!

requires strength, speed, toughness, endurance.
but again.. favors a particular body type.
for example, most football players would suck wind trying to keep up in hockey.. and most hockey players would get squashed in a football game.

lazs.. have no idea where you fit in... other than the constant whining and challenging of ideas you've given no hint of what you stand for.
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: lazs2 on July 26, 2002, 10:10:17 AM
"lazs.. have no idea where you fit in... other than the constant whining and challenging of ideas you've given no hint of what you stand for.'

Really?   I think I am pretty plain speaking... You on the other hand have told us about yourself but when pressed admit that you were not telling the truth.    Well... we now Know that you believe in moderation as do I but.... we had to drag it out of you while I simply stated it.

But... I have run into people who feel as you do about me...  I have divorced em all tho.

I am not interested in Hockey or body types but realize that differnt people carry their weight differently.  I agree with ripsnore that genetics is the most important thing and think that exercise (in moderation and on a regular basis) is very important

I have had jobs that involved very heavy work for long periods of the day and I believe that they tore up my body while making me stronger... not a good plan for the long term.   Hockey would probly be simular if played agressivly.   injuries are never good for u in the long run.

I believe that any whacko diets or exercise  or substance abuse is probly more harm than good overall.   In my life I have probly (undoubtedly)been guilty of all the above and.... probly justified every one.
lazs
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: midnight Target on July 26, 2002, 10:14:37 AM
You know I hate to get into semantical arguments, but isn't "mostly vegetarian" kinda like "almost a virgin"?

just askin.  :D
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Wlfgng on July 26, 2002, 10:23:02 AM
heavy and/or extreme excercise isn't bad for you if you work up to it.  
The 'no pain no gain' routine is a farce for long term health.  Look how many athletes die at an early age.  Mostly (there's that word again) due to the fact that they beat up their bodies to achieve results.  
If you take the path of gradual build up.. not letting yourself get injured along the way (overuse/abuse), you can do great things.  There are a group of Indians in new mexico that run as a way of life.  They do miles and miles seemingly effortlessly and at the end of a 'jog', as the put it, they have low heart rates and respiration.   The people of this tribe know that the older ones are better at it, have more strenght and endurance, etc.

it's all how you get there.  
If you listen to your body, you'll know when to lay off and when to push.  You should be able to eventually achieve a high level of output with very little effort.

soo... if you over did it at your job and it caused pain it's probably because you didn't allow your body the time to 'catch up'.  More likely you weren't allowed the time since it was a job, etc etc.

point is that you can participate in extreme sports without damaging yourself.  In fact, it's quite healthy.

oh and laz.. whatever you want to believe.  I just enjoyed ribbing you and it helped pass the work week watching your replies.  Being an antagonist to someone that likes to put labels on people (stereotype) can be fun...bored with it now tho.
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Wlfgng on July 26, 2002, 10:25:03 AM
MT   see above.

you are right of course, but at the time I enjoyed letting laz rant about what he knows little about.  ME  :>

Quote
)been guilty of all the above and.... probly justified every one.


too true for MOST of us I'm sure  :p
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: rosco on July 26, 2002, 10:44:40 AM
Quote
Originally posted by fdiron
 If there are any inherent flaws with my diet, they should have shown themselves by now (or soon).  


 Not necessarily.  I used to weigh 0ver 300 lbs. In an effort to loose weight I started working out and eating less...as in not nearly enough. I felt good for the longest time, more energy and was getting 10 times more done in a day than I used to. It took about 8 months before I started having dizzy spells and my hair started falling out. I know its not what you are doing but Im just pointing out that 3 weeks is not nearly enough time to judge.
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Shuckins on July 26, 2002, 07:32:36 PM
Two Day Cure for Vegetarianitus!


Day One:  Obtain the following ingredients to prepare your cure:

Beef tenderloin or venison tenderloin
Dale's Steak Seasoning (a 30 minute marinade)
Cavender's Greek Seasoning or Cajun Seasoning of your choice
hardwood charcoal or mesquite charcoal
hickory chips(soak in water overnight)



Day Two:  Roll out your grill or smoker

Place 4 to 5 pounds of hardwood charcoal on grill.  After soaking with lighter fluid, light and let it burn for approximately an hour to an hour and a half.  While waiting, take the tenderloin and score it with a knife ever half inch.  Place it in a bowl and pour the Dale's Steak Seasoning over it.  Turn it frequently.  Allow it to soak in the seasoning for about 30 minutes.  The Dale's subdues the gamey flavor of venison and compliments it at the same time.

Place a handful of hickory chips on the charcoal,  then place the tenderloin on the lowest rack of your grill, just above the coals.  Grill about three to five minutes on each side.  When you turn it, sprinkle with the Cavender's Greek Seasoning or a Cajun seasoning.  After each side has been seared for three to five minutes, place on a higher rack and cook more slowly, checking frequently to make sure it doesn't become too dry.  If done properly, the tenderloin should have a light pink center when done.

Serve with roasted corn on the cob, barbequed baked beans, cole slaw, a steak sauce (if desired), and your favorite beverage.


A guaranteed cure for any afflicted with that particular ailment! :)


Regards, Shuckins
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: lazs2 on July 27, 2002, 10:17:02 AM
actually wlfgng... an impartial observer might notice that you were doing all the "ranting" about something you obviously know little about..... me.    but.... it has been only mildly amusing watching you do it.   Your lack of skill and a penchant for dishonesty detract from your rants.
lazs
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: sling322 on July 27, 2002, 10:29:37 AM
Quote
Originally posted by AKSWulfe
How da hell do you milk rice?
:)
-SW


Really small hands?  :D
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: midnight Target on July 27, 2002, 10:40:09 AM
'scuse me while I go to dinner at Shuckins house..... mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm !!! :cool:

I enjoy a simple ribeye on a redhot cast iron skillet with a simple crust of kosher salt and fresh ground pepper..

good chit!
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: fdiron on July 27, 2002, 11:11:20 AM
Actually, I've made rice milk.  You put one cup of cooked rice in a blender, with 3 or 4 cups of hot water.  Blend on highest setting for a minute or two.  Add a teaspoon of vanilla or brown sugar.  Serve chilled.

I prefer coconut milk, though it is high in fat.
Title: Any vegetarians here?
Post by: Wlfgng on July 29, 2002, 11:50:57 AM
rice milk.. yech