Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Rude on July 24, 2002, 10:13:15 AM
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Now, I am talkin out my you know what again, but here goes:)
Just read another thread with some posts regarding paying more for what the players wanted, rather than hangin in the current sandbox.
I'm just curious, how many of you would pay more for a different arena with larger maps, more strat targets, etc.? Or who would pay more just to seperate from the gamey, HO, channel 1 insult laden MA?
Personally, I would gladly pay $49.95 to fly a larger arena with increased realism, a more difficult flight model and different type of adversary(that's a nice way to say it huh) :)
I doubt seriously that HT would ever provide this unless the MA populated to the extent of busting at the seams.
Oh well, I was just curious...I'm still able to have fun in the current MA and that's what it's all about.
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Thats 75 canadian a month.
I would be willing to be a trainer in such an arena...
:rolleyes:
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I would
Let's see how many go from talk the talk to walk the walk :D
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Not me. For $50 USD, I can buy a copy of CFS2 or CFS3 when it comes out and fly unlimited for free for months afterwards.
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Originally posted by gofaster
Not me. For $50 USD, I can buy a copy of CFS2 or CFS3 when it comes out and fly unlimited for free for months afterwards.
And fly against how many online opponents?
:D
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Originally posted by LePaul
And fly against how many online opponents?
:D
At $49.95/month, he'll probably be playing with a whole helluva lot more guys than you would be.
-SW
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I do this: Fly in events and the CT only. MA, whats that?
Try it for a month. You may never go back. Btw, it costs the same :)
Regards.
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Originally posted by Squire
I do this: Fly in events and the CT only. MA, whats that?
Try it for a month. You may never go back. Btw, it costs the same :)
Regards.
That's about what my AH life is limited to anymore...(SEA)
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If you would have asked me this question months ago, I would say sure.
But for 49.95 a month, $40.00 for cable modem access, your looking at almost $90.00 a month to play a game.
I simply can't afford that much right now.
If AH made a massive overhaul, (New Strat, Troops, New GV's, FPS Maproom defence, graphics overhaul, bigger, better, historically accurate maps) I would do it. I would not be able to affford it, but for this much entertainment, I would sell a kidney or something.
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Forget all that other nancy-boy stuff you mentioned Rude; what we need is truly IMPORTANT stuff.
Heck, I'd go $49.95 if he'd just give us Perma-squelch (Tm). :)
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No matter what kind of fancy, realistic features HTC gives AH, in the MA you are still going to see suicide runs by single planes against heavily defended bases, etc.
Most players are in the MA to have fun, thus there is a lot of dweebiness going on.
If you want increased realism and a different kind of adversary, try the CT, and let people know what you think.
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"a more difficult flight model and different type of adversary"
It was $29.95, and called, "AH 1.03".
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Originally posted by popeye
"a more difficult flight model and different type of adversary"
It was $29.95, and called, "AH 1.03".
Ahh the good old days....
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Originally posted by popeye
"a more difficult flight model and different type of adversary"
It was $29.95, and called, "AH 1.03".
Ah, yeah. Who can forget all those "price whines" on this very BBS when it was that incredibly huge amount?
....... and who can forget that the 1.03 FM was shown to be "less realistic" and incorrect by the aeronautical guys we have come to know and trust on this very bbs? Not to mention the folks at HTC that do the programming. Some great whinage in that transition too.
:D
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Yeah, It seems since AW died, invaded, raped and plundered AH -things just haven’t been the same in this game.
Lots of those guys make more playtime on CH 1 than they could ever dream of hands on stick.
I for one hope AW does rise from the dead and takes all its dribble back with it. Of course, the really good ones would stay here so ...bonus points for all involved.
HAND :)
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That's about what my AH life is limited to anymore...(SEA)
That's about where I'm at right now. Lately I log into MA about twice a week, fly 1 or 2 sorties, and log out. TODs are what keep me coming back.
Toad...check the sig....been lobbying for about 3 versions now ;)
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Originally posted by LePaul
And fly against how many online opponents?
:D
At least one via Head-to-Head modem :)
Actually, the only reason I'm on Aces High is because its cheaper than Warbirds, and the only reason I got into online flying after the fall of Air Warrior was because of the advertisement for AH that I saw in copies of "Computer Gaming World" and "Flight Journal". Otherwise, it'd be CFS2, NASCAR Racing 2002, and Silent Hunter II.
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Originally posted by popeye
"a more difficult flight model and different type of adversary"
It was $29.95, and called, "AH 1.03".
Seems so long ago :(
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Not even a consideration. If this kind of hike were announced I'd be gone the same day. I'd end up paying about $4 to $6 an hour to play and right now with the CTD's and freezes not even that much.
If you want to make it real realism then everyone would get one death per account. Period. :rolleyes:
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Toad.
we are still allowed to think it was more fun..
realistic or not. The engagments seemed more realistic even if the flight models where not.
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Originally posted by Yeager
Yeah, It seems since AW died, invaded, raped and plundered AH -things just haven’t been the same in this game.
Lots of those guys make more playtime on CH 1 than they could ever dream of hands on stick.
I for one hope AW does rise from the dead and takes all its dribble back with it. Of course, the really good ones would stay here so ...bonus points for all involved.
HAND :)
Lol u elitist bastard. U aint seen nothing till you got yer arse handed to you by an "airwarrior" Hah!
I wouldnt suscribe to this game when It was 30 bucks and dang sure wouldnt pay 50.
I do think its a bargain at 15 tho ;)
YOu wouldnt get better quality folks by charging more, you would just get a richer elitist snob. Id rather listen to macro dweebs than elitist snob BS.
X2Lee<~~~ Po and proud
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Put me down for it Rude. Wuz my idea anyway, you pirate! :)
...and you note all the guys hoppin in here noting how it won't work, why it's absurd, etc?
Keep those guys out. ;)
We can left the LW fly for 29.95.. we may need somebody to kill. :)
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I'd smak down $14.95 for AH as it is, and do. Monthly, without regret, game play unchanged. I really like it. AKDesert? I’m still in.
I'd add .50 cents per month to have real gauges and cockpits, actually up to $5 if the initial monetary boost by other AH Beta players would make this hideous immersion flaw at least go to user select.
I call on the Beta players, only as the new players haven’t the initiative to pay for it, even though they will in time. Make it a downloadable “addon”feature.
I’d buy it.
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I understand yr frustration Hangtime but you may be guilty of a liyttle parochialism.
Although AH is US built and the majority of players(payers) are US domiciled there IS still a significant percentage of non-us players.
For us $50USD can translate into a rather larger sum.
$50US = $100NZ and that plus ISP charges would put it way out of most kiwis (and I suspect aussies) pockets.
I couldnt afford it when it was $30US (thats why I stayed in AW so long).
I would simply move to another sim despite their possible lack of comparison re physics etc. Probably WWIIonline.
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naaaa
more realistic fm? explain?
i can't afford that anyways
SKurj
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I understand yr frustration Hangtime but you may be guilty of a liyttle parochialism.
[snob mode ON]
A Little?? Damn, I musta misspoke. I was tryin for a LOT.
Look.. nobody wants to charge you more. You'll still have all yer AW buddies to play with, in the same dismal overpopulated aggravating HO'in gang banging furballin strat weenie maggot general infested place you fly now.
We just wanna pay more so we have our own lil place to play our sim with QUALITY gangbangin furballin HO'in vultchin strat weenie potato opponets and compatriots.
[snob mode OFF]
;)
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Maybe not $50, but gladly $30. But I'm sure there are other ways to limit the "point and click" folks.
Talking about AW3, Sialt mentioned yesterday that the HO model was better in AW3. I recall that when HOing, most of the bullets flew "thru" you. It may be a good idea to avoid the "pull as ahrd as you can and open up".
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Originally posted by Pongo
Toad.
we are still allowed to think it was more fun..
Absolutely agree, 100%.
realistic or not. The engagments seemed more realistic even if the flight models where not.
"Seemed" more realistic.? Based upon?
They seemed "off" to me right up until 1.04. Not saying 1.04+ was perfect, just "way better". IMO. I sorta am of the opinion that I do have some experience to base that opinion of mine upon.
Additionally, the "aeronautical" guys we usually rely on here on the BBS pretty much all agreed that 1.03 was "off" and 1.04+ was an improvement in "realism". Then there's the fact that HTC went and changed it; obviously they felt it was "off" too, I'd guess.
So, more fun? I would NEVER argue someone's opinion of fun. That'd be against my religion. Fun is where the individual finds it.
I will discuss "realism", however. ;)
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$50 US? No way. I paid the $29 and that was steep. I like the current price. I wish they would bring back the discounted 6 month payment plan.
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Originally posted by X2Lee
Lol u elitist bastard. U aint seen nothing till you got yer arse handed to you by an "airwarrior" Hah!
X2Lee<~~~ Po and proud
I don't think anything pisses off some of these AH vets more then being out flown by a fresh off the boat AW refugee :D
(http://www.hispanicvista.com/assets/479th_shield.jpg)
Ack-Ack
479th FG - Riddle's Raiders
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Originally posted by SFRT - Frenchy
Talking about AW3, Sialt mentioned yesterday that the HO model was better in AW3. I recall that when HOing, most of the bullets flew "thru" you. It may be a good idea to avoid the "pull as ahrd as you can and open up".
HO's was just a huge waste of ammo in AW with maybe a 5% chance of getting a hit and those were with planes with HO shot bonuses (planes with nose mounted guns).
Ack-Ack
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Ok.... lets use a common currency for our comparisons.
For Australia:
50USD is the literal equivalent of 15 MacDonalds meals.
Also somewhere close to also 2 weeks of food money for 1 person.
I subscribe to AH, because it fits into my price range. As it stands, it is worth nearly 5 MacDonalds meals.
A single real life flying lesson cost about the same as 43 MacDonalds meals.
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Signe me up for 1.03 at 29.95. The FM would keep the kids out. It already did :)
BTW. Toad. Please make a film of you putting a fighter into a flat spin. I would like to see this realism.
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I love this game....But I would no tpay 40 frikn dollars.....
It would have to be ULTRA GRAPHICS and such,,,and that means my comp would have toi be super too....
40 Dollars...We would lose alot of people....There are many pilots who are still flying for commuters and such,,we dont make sht for money...
All you big Tripple 7 and 747 pilots think you so hot with your big money.....well have fun with the 40 other polayers you will have in you 40 dollar amonth arena....weeee
Love BiGB
xoxoxo
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I'll have you know, we had as many as 60 players at times. This would be another game, or arena. No reason for anyone to quit.
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I think a "special events subscription" would be ok.
We need more bandwidth and maybe a better server.
10 bucks if you sub to the main
14.99 if ya dont.
25 bucks is till cheaper then the 30 we paid.
Now to get the arena rude described would be worth paying
more for a different arena with larger maps, more strat targets, etc.? Or who would pay more just to seperate from the gamey, HO, channel 1 insult laden MA?
50 bucks a month maybe a bit much after all we dont want an empty arena.
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Ok, easymo, will do.
I'll make a film of an AH 51 in a flat spin if you'll go rent Crazyhorse (dual control P-51 down in Florida that gives rides and instruction) and make a film of a real P-51 bleeding huge amounts of E in a simple 2G turn the way the P-51 bled huge amounts of E in AH 1.03.
I'll send you mine right after you send me yours. Deal?
;)
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Oh, and while you're up, film this one for me:
After the split S Lee took the controls and pulled vertical for a half vertical roll, pulled over the top at about 80 knots and then a half vertical roll on the downline and while we're still going straight down he says, "Dale, it's your airplane."
This is from a "debrief" by a guy that went up in Crazy Horse; link below.
I don't think you can do this even in 1.03+; I KNOW you couldn't get anywhere near it in 1.03.
Mustangs forever! (http://www.vfa-13.com/roster/mustangs.html)
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A pony whine. Been a long time since one of those. :D
My nik bled E like it had a drag chute attached.
That reminds me. I always meant to ask. Is it true that your Indian name is, Runsscreeminglikeagirl.
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Fix the freeze ups, warps, disco's and get rid of the whiners and i'll pay up.
Till that happens I'm gonna continue to squeak to my wife about how much fun this game isn't:)
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dunno 50$ is alot i'd pay another 15$ (back to 30$ total)
I try to keep my total net costs per month under 100$ and this wouldn't help :) But i'd pay more is the point .. because well I have before.
And MA ain't that bad... "don't tell me this town ain't got no heart .. just gotta look around"
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AH is an exceptional game, but 75 bucks Canadian, they'd hafta throw in a free week end for two at a resort spa complete with mairrage counselor.
Pizza map would be something with 100 players wouldn't it:)
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sorry but nope... $50 way too much i could never afford it.
my financial sit is not good and job market is horrible (lookin for new not unemployed) yes the game is great but i have 5 other friends beggin me to come join their clan and play the urban ops stuff free on the zone. i dont cause i spend all my time here :D
$15 .......maybe $20 ok but any more and id have to leave for financial reasons
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I wouldn't pay $50 regularly. I'd probably fly a month once in a while... My interest in AH is already at an all-time low. Thats normal for me, every so often I kinda "take a break", however jacking the price up to $50 would simply make that break really long lol. There's too many other things to spend $600 a year on in life than any MMOG.
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Prices on everything are expensive enough right now.
I'm still trying to figure out why anyone would post a thread wanting the price more than tripled.:rolleyes:
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must be a WB troll post .....
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no id pay an extra $5 for an arena called 'laz's furballin' arena' as long as he has to go there all the time :p
sorry laz couldnt resist :)
Rude brown tongueing his way up the HTC ladder ;)
its not worth $49 a month.
the average price in online gaming monthly fees is already set around the net.No one would be willing to pay $50 a month for any game unless they are loaded to the gills and most people aint. $30 a month was too steep a price imo but i suffered it because the connections were always superb.Now the connections are generally terrible I wouldnt pay more than $15 odd it costs me now.
sorry but there it is no matter how much i like AH.I left AH because of a few issues , among them the high price.
to be honest I think i would have left AH again a few months ago except $15 isnt too much of a problem so i kept it open.Now if it was $49? or even $30 id see that on my CC statement and id remove it if I wasnt enjoying the game.
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1.03 was terrible in both realism and gameplay. buncha guys circling around waiting for someone to attack a lower plane. any plane that was lower was meat.
lazs
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I'd gladly pay more for a "low ping" arena... lets say cap it at 50? I get a solid 16 but I know I'm the exception to the rule, I'd like to know what people on DSL and Cable are getting. I do not like it that I get penalized in the MA for having a good connection, I say let all the dialup weenies enjoy a whole mess of their own company.
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More realistic or harder FM ?
that's the question for some i guess i think whenever HTC is in the position to make the FM more realistic they wil.
Just for the same price
But...
I would think it's interesting to have more cockpit managment
navigating and other reallife stuff
On the other hand i'm not a trained pilot and it could become dissapointing.
As i might get lost and never find a fight or just blow up my engine
:D
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Having neither been there, nor done that, I would never use the R word. (However, it does seem to me that taking off in a high performance fighter might require one's undivided attention...)
Gameplay is subjective. I'll admit to enjoying the more calculated style of 1.03. I have also enjoyed subsequent versions.
Low planes could fare just fine in 1.03. Trolling with a Spoit V was one of my favorite passtimes. Imagine my surprise when a 1.04 Jug was able to loop over my head endlessly.... Time to change tactics.
My point was that the 1.03 FM, and price, did affect the character of the community -- for better or worse.
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Originally posted by VWE001
I say let all the dialup weenies enjoy a whole mess of their own company.
Just what do you think makes somebody limited to a dial up connect a wennie?
From my experience it's the highspeed connects that create the bulk of the warping strangeness in the arenas. I'd fly from my T1 at work if it was as stable as my dial-up connect. A stable connect is what's important, or is it just that you are tired of loosing HO's:p
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"More realistic or harder FM ?
that's the question for some i guess i think whenever HTC is in the position to make the FM more realistic they wil. "
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AH is a Game first and a sim 2nd.
----- HiTech
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The beauty of HT's statement, is that it allows him to go in either direction at the drop of a hat. Which ever he thinks might be more financially rewarding (nothing wrong with that)
"Show me the numbers" Is a game producers version of a child saying "just because" The mathematical variables, of this modeling, are infinite. Nobody models the difference in drag between a rivet that was driven in 10 thousands of an inch farther then the one beside it. It would be mathematically impossible to model the inviroment these planes fly through. Every current and eddy. This allows them to pick out the numbers that suit them. Point at them. And say, "see". Its very much like a politician quoting Percentages. They can make the numbers favor anything they like. In flight sims, its also doesn't hurt that they are not open source. And we have no idea what those numbers actually are. We can only point out when something is obviously out of wack. Like the inability to put a plane into a flat spin, in AH. Or a snap roll, in WB.
For a lot of us, the challange of the harder FM is what made it more fun. And I am sure there where some numbers in thee we could point at and say, "see"
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Rude,
There's a basic economic principal that you are ignoring. Raising the price doesn't necessarily mean more money to HTC and therefore they are able to cater to your desires.
Admitedly, it would result in HTC having to satisfy a narrower audience...well, fewer subscribers at least.
Here's a thought to ponder. Do all the folks who say they would pay more for AH for a better experience agree on exactly what that better experience is?
Raising the price would lead to higher expectations, but still widely varied expectations, and likely *more* dissatisfaction.
You're probably most likely to get what you want by HTC maximizing profit by maintaining a popular price and thus allowing them to satisfy a maximum number of broad interests.
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No interest here. The days of inflated pricing went away when AW moved from GEnie (thank christ). I don't see HTC even being able to provide the level of service that would be required in such a scenario regardless.
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Originally posted by easymo
We can only point out when something is obviously out of wack. Like the inability to put a plane into a flat spin, in AH.
First, in all the flight games/sims I've flown, boxed or online, I've found that the spin modeling was the thing apparently most difficult to model. Some had decent entry, some had a decent spin and some had a decent recovery. I don't think I ever found one that had all three in the same game. From this I assume that the huge multitude of variables in spins must make modeling them pretty difficult. That's right, I said "assume".
Second, yes spins in AH now take a lot of manhandling and/or abuse of the controls to enter. They also don't recover using the "standard spin recovery". But they didn't recover using that in 1.03 and previous versions either.
The decades old NACA standard spin recovery is:
1. Power--Off.
2. Ailerons--Neutralize (& Flaps "up").
3. Rudder--Apply fully opposite to the direction of yaw.
4. Elevator--Push through neutral.
Hold These Inputs Until Rotation Stops, Then:
5. Rudder--Neutralize.
6. Elevator--Easy pull to straight and level.
I find that using the NACA recovery... and I'll wager just about every US WW2 pilot can still remember and quote these steps... doesn't work for me in AH. I usually have to use rudder AND AILERON to stop the spin. Note that above Step 2 is to NEUTRALIZE the ailerons.
So, yes, I can point to spins now and say "they're off"... but they were off in 1.03 too. They've been "off" in every WW2 aircombat game I've ever played.
I can also point to the Energy modeling in 1.03 and say it was "off". The simple proof is that a lot of the fighters could not indefinitely maintain a simple 60 degree bank 2G level turn at full power. The drag bled E off so quickly to the point where you couldn't maintain either the altitude or the bank. And this problem wasn't just in the horizontal. It was in every flight regime.
(In fact, I'm still a little puzzled at the way we retain E when trying to land... and this is the reverse problem; the planes maintain E too well. It was that way pre-1.03 and it still is. Go figure. Sometimes I think it has something to do with perception, like the way the airfields are scaled and that it isn't E modeling per se. But that's a whole different discussion. :) )
There may have been a "fighter" that couldn't indefinitely (well, until it ran out of gas) maintain a 2 G turn in WW2 but I don't think any of those modeled here so far fit into that category.
For pity's sake, my PT-19 will do a "steep turn" for about 4 hours.. then you run out of gas. And it's a 200 HP primary trainer.
So, if one had to pick between two "flaws" in a flight model, which would be the more serious?
Difficulty in modeling spins? Or difficulty in modeling Energy use and retention throughout the flight regime?
There's no question that spins are probably a little too rare now and that the recovery procedure doesn't "match".
There's also no question that E use/retention is modeled MUCH better now than it was in 1.03 and previous.
As I said, everyone defines their version of "fun" for themselves. I have no problem with that.
But it should be pretty clear, given our venue (ie: PC flight games/sims) that getting E use/retention throughout the entire flight regime more closely aligned with reality is of far more benefit to the experience than having a spin model more closely aligned with reality.
BTW, there's lots of little things one can point to that seem "not exactly". There always is, in just about any endeavor, not just PC gaming.
However, this AH FM package, taken as a whole, is amazingly impressive considering that it runs quite well and fluidly on a relatively inexpensive desktop PC while striving for and achieveing a "believeable" WW2 flying experience.
HTC.
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Originally posted by Samiam
Rude,
There's a basic economic principal that you are ignoring. Raising the price doesn't necessarily mean more money to HTC and therefore they are able to cater to your desires.
Admitedly, it would result in HTC having to satisfy a narrower audience...well, fewer subscribers at least.
Here's a thought to ponder. Do all the folks who say they would pay more for AH for a better experience agree on exactly what that better experience is?
Raising the price would lead to higher expectations, but still widely varied expectations, and likely *more* dissatisfaction.
You're probably most likely to get what you want by HTC maximizing profit by maintaining a popular price and thus allowing them to satisfy a maximum number of broad interests.
I only was wallowing in my own selfish desires...the thread was not intended to be analyzed, critiqued or even taken seriously....I was just curious if anyone out there felt as I did.
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I am not kidding.
I don't know if it was intentional :). But, as toad pointed out. Pre and post 1.03 were both less then perfect. It is just a matter of preference. I liked the edgy feeling that if I push this turn a little to far, this thing is going to fall out from under me. AND I AM WILLING TO PAY TWICE THE GOING RATE TO PLAY IT.
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Sounds like there should be an NA (Nostalgia Arena) that uses BETA map and requires vers. 1.02.
...AND it's own BB forum so we don't have to keep hearing how great it was in the "old" days :)