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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: thrila on July 24, 2002, 09:48:17 PM

Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: thrila on July 24, 2002, 09:48:17 PM
Leftfoot just shot me down in his jug on my first spit14 sortie this tour.  I now have a spectacular 0/1 K/D ratio with the spit14.:D

Anyway, the Spit14 isn't worth the 60 perks.  It just doesn't have enough performance to handle the perk icon.  I can't be bothered to look at the spit14's overall K/D but it's probably not all that great (yeah i'm too lazy to go check:p ).

Any chance of lowering the perk amount or the one i prefer - removing the "14".


Please feel free to contribute to my thread, mock me, call me a whiner etc.....:D
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Innominate on July 24, 2002, 09:56:32 PM
I'd like to see plane icons standardized.  I don't really care which way it goes, but all planes should have the same type of icon.  Either all should have the exact model, i.e. 109G-10  F4U4, Spit9, spit14.  Or they should all only have the general model name.  109, f4u, spit, spit.

How would a pilot be able to tell a spit9 from a spit14, but not be able to tell a spit5 from a spit9?

The standard of specific models for perk planes doesn't even hold true, with the f4u-1c being just an F4U.  Oddly enough, because of the lack of gangbang tags, the 10point f4u-1c has an extraordinary k/d ratio.
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: SirLoin on July 24, 2002, 10:11:05 PM
Spit 14...The best plane to fly in a non furball sector.It's so much fun it's worth the cost for me.I do wish the u-know-what was removed though.

Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: SKurj on July 24, 2002, 10:19:41 PM
sp14 out climbs.. out runs, out turns a jug at all alts doesn't it...? +)

Sorry if i'm mistaken can't be bothered to look it up


SKurj
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: AKDejaVu on July 24, 2002, 11:02:05 PM
Why was it perked?  As a pre-emptive LW whining reduction device.

What are its stats?

these are fighter stats vs other fighters only
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Innominate on July 24, 2002, 11:14:56 PM
F4U-1C vs F4U-4 is the perfect evidence that something is wrong in perkland.
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Karnak on July 24, 2002, 11:15:13 PM
The Spitfire Mk XIVc is my favorite WWII fighter.

The AH Spitfire Mk XIV has the most impressive feeling FM of any Spitfire Mk XIV I've used in any game.

I will not fly the Spitfire Mk XIV until one of two things is done.
[list=1]
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Karnak on July 24, 2002, 11:26:01 PM
Quote
Originally posted by SKurj
sp14 out climbs.. out runs, out turns a jug at all alts doesn't it...? +)

Sorry if i'm mistaken can't be bothered to look it up


SKurj


Since when were Jugs the aircraft that things were measured against?

No, measure its performance against the common fighters.  Note how dramatic the difference between its WEP performance is compared to its MIL performance.  I believe that the Spitfire Mk XIV very well may have the largest difference in  WEP and MIL performance of any aircraft in AH.
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Kweassa on July 25, 2002, 12:13:11 AM
Good points Karnak.
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: akak on July 25, 2002, 01:14:49 AM
Maybe the reason for the poor stats of the Spitfire Mk XIV is that maybe some that fly it aren't flying it properly.  Seems like a lot of people assume that it's an angles fighter like the other Spitfires when it's not.  Spitfire XIV is an E fighter all the way and would excel in that role when flown properly.  


Ack-Ack
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: phishnut on July 25, 2002, 01:16:52 AM
What Karnak said.  How can I enjoy a dogfight in my tempest when every plane with a visible id tag frantically zooms up under me, stalls out, and sprays and prays from d800? Riding with 50 or 60 perks under my seat is one time when I don't want to be the center of attention of 10 badguys.  I'd have a much better chance down in the mud in a supposedly much-worse, but free, typhoon.
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Roscoroo on July 25, 2002, 01:19:48 AM
I feel yes the spit 14 is way over perked ...

It really isnt that great of a plane, its heavy, turns slow and has a Look at me im a spit 14  icon on it !!  its not really worth even perchasing most of the time . I'd rather buy TA152's and F4U-1c's.
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Karnak on July 25, 2002, 01:58:34 AM
akak,

Read my long post.  I debunk the idea that you just put forth.

Its performance style (all WEP based) isn't good enough to allow it to succeed as an E fighter (which it is) with a perk icon and its fuel consumption prevents it from being used in an ultra conservative manner.

Additionally, look at its numbers.  It's not being used.
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Seeker on July 25, 2002, 01:59:11 AM
Good post, Karnak.
Title: Stupid roman Nrs !!!
Post by: Saintaw on July 25, 2002, 02:02:19 AM
I did Latin at school, so I should be aware, but.... in the excitement ;)

Lost 8 of them in a Row, tryiing to take off with my Spit 9 (*cough* XIV...) from a vulched field :D

It's a good plane, but 60 perks is too high (F4U4 as well).
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Innominate on July 25, 2002, 03:26:26 AM
The big problem with the f4u4, and spit14 is thier tags.  The cost isn't the problem. These planes are not much fun to fly in BnZ type attack, and free planes will all do it just as well.  When you have gangbang tags, that is the only type of fight any plane can survive.

A spit14 or f4u4 will outperform another plane dramaticly.  However, against five, the performance difference isn't going to help you.

The bottom line is that, the gangbang tags require the planes to be flown too conservatively.  If you get into a position where more than one plane can target you, you're going to be forced to run, or possibly killed.  Flying like this requires spending too much time getting altitude, too little time fighting, and as the usage stats show, obviously isn't fun.

Me262: 1158 kills
Tempest: 724 kills

Spit14: 376 kills
F4U-4: 297 kills

C-47: 365 kills
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: SirLoin on July 25, 2002, 06:00:27 AM
Spit 14 is a roping monster..pure and simple.I have only encountered one pilot in the MA that tried to use it in this manner...Don't know who it was cause I got the hell outta that hopeless situation...I'm surprised the hardcore Luftwaffles haven't adopted this plane as a "captured" ride..:)
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: gatso on July 25, 2002, 06:08:39 AM
I will not fly the Spit 14 ever at it's current price.

Good post Karnak BTW.

So what do we feel is a reasonable price for the XIV/U4 anyway...

15 each gets my vote.

Gatso
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: SirLoin on July 25, 2002, 06:16:50 AM
.
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: FTJR on July 25, 2002, 06:27:38 AM
what they said... please get rid of the tag
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Raubvogel on July 25, 2002, 07:33:17 AM
Flew a Spit 14 for the first time the other night. Thing handles great. Found a few cons and decided to engage. The Bish must have put out a nationwide manhunt bulletin, because about 2 minutes later I had 5 or 6 P51s swarming all over me. I eventually lost a wingtip to a HO shot and augered in. Not whining, I'd probably do the same thing, but get rid of the tag. Attracts way too much attention for a plane that is slower than many unperked planes in the MA.

Lower the price to about 40, ditch the tag.
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Ripsnort on July 25, 2002, 08:07:48 AM
Considering that nothing can outclimb it to 20,000 feet (I've tested it against the G10 offline), it should be 100 perks.
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Shiva on July 25, 2002, 08:28:29 AM
Quote
I did Latin at school, so I should be aware, but.... in the excitement


Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt, tum soli proscripti catapultas habebunt.   :)
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: VWE001 on July 25, 2002, 08:39:59 AM
It costs 60 perkies because HTC really hates Spitty dweebs... :eek:
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Toad on July 25, 2002, 08:41:20 AM
Now Raub, that's not how it went.. at least from the other side.

You were high over one of our last fields on the home island at Ndisles or high over the factory thingie nearby.

Voss was up there but below you and you were trying to nail him right?

There were 3 of us TAS way below you headed up to 15 I think to try and stem the onslaught of GANGING nme's that were joined at the hip with the other country trying to reset us poor Bish.

Well you kept chasing round and round with Voss and getting lower and lower as we slowly climbed higher and higher... and then ya goofed.

IIRC, you switched off Voss and made a pass at me..... that put you below Voss, WildThing and Beemer if only for a short while.

Correctly assessing you as the greatest threat in the local area, with more enemies launching off 15 in droves and headed our way, it was decided over Vox that you had to go before the furball started low.... othewise you were going to have a field day.

It was Voss that clipped your wing tip.

Anyway, that's how I remember that. It wasn't so much "Kill the Spit XIV Perk Plane!" It was.. "if that guy's still around when the furball starts, he'll B&Z us without a care."

Jeebuz... you were over our heads for five minutes and could have bugged out anytime you liked if the situation looked dicey.

Still think you'd have been OK if you hadn't switched off Voss and dove on me though.

Anyway, that's how I remember that.  YMMV.  ;)
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Wmaker on July 25, 2002, 10:51:33 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
Since when were Jugs the aircraft that things were measured against?


I think SKurj meant it for thrila who in his post (the one that started this thread) told how he was shot down by one while flying Spit14.

Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Pongo on July 25, 2002, 11:29:25 AM
That is an interesting observation..
the k/d rate is low because people use it by accident..
but that automatically means that it would be used even less then it is....
I think that both of those planes should be a lower perk value. but should have thier own icon....

I would like to see what either of these planes would accomplish flown as a unit of 4 planes supporting each other.

Of the planes in the game that hide under genaric icons I think the 190D9 is probably the most visually and capability distincitve from its fellow 190s. It looks alot more llike a 152 then then a 190a5. The jugs perform to much allike to wory about an icon till the 47M or N get here. The 109s except the E look so much alike that enemies likley never new wether it was a 109F4 or a K4 without looking at the calander.
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Midnight on July 25, 2002, 11:35:21 AM
DUMP THE PERK ICONS!!!!

I don't fly perks except for the 262 on occasion. I do think the perk icons should be removed on the perk planes that are the same basic model of others.

F4Us should be an F4U icon, no matter what version
F4U-1
F4U-C
F4U-D
F4U-4

Spits should be a SPIT icon, no matter what version
Spit I
Spit V
Seafire
Spit IX
Spit XIV

If you want to know which one your up against... get close and take a look at the paint job. That's how we do it against 109s and FW190s and P51s and Hurricanes and JU88s and YAKs.

Icons should be generic model only. Version should not be given away as a "I AM A PERK PLANE" billboard.

Tempests, TA-152s and Me-262s , well, your screwed, you are your own model type. Auguably, you could almost put TYPH on a Tempest, or 190 on a TA-152, but nothing and no one can mistake a 262 :D
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Motoer on July 25, 2002, 11:37:22 AM
Great posts Karnak. So So True!

Please get rid of the gang Bang Icon at least HTC
:(

I was so looking forward to flying the 14
But the way it is now Whats the point:rolleyes:







Moto_MOL
SpitDweeb and proud of it:p
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Raubvogel on July 25, 2002, 11:53:00 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Correctly assessing you as the greatest threat in the local area, with more enemies launching off 15 in droves and headed our way, it was decided over Vox that you had to go before the furball started low.... othewise you were going to have a field day.
Anyway, that's how I remember that.  YMMV.  ;)


Well, alcohol does affect my memory...(and my typing skills-went to tell a squaddie how I had died, ended up broadcasting it on ch1 and looking like a whiner :p) You're pretty much right. I still had alt and E and was coming back over the top on the 51...he pointed his nose up and took off my wingtip...and that was the end of that. Not whining, it was a good kill.

Would you have made the same decision if the icon had just said "Spit"? Probably not. That's my point.


Back to the original topic: Spit 14 should have the icon changed. :)
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: AKIron on July 25, 2002, 12:07:40 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Midnight
DUMP THE PERK ICONS!!!!


I agree, we pay the price in perk points, shouldn't be double jeopardy. :)
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: phishnut on July 25, 2002, 12:08:11 PM
It seems like the perk cost is penalty enough without having to be gangbanged or fly conservatively at every turn.

I'd rather pay more perks and take away the perk icon than the way it is now.  Then, I might use them.

As it stands, I only use the f4u-1c since it lets me have an enjoyable fight.
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Replicant on July 25, 2002, 12:38:10 PM
Okay, the Spit14 can climb well but imo that's about it.  It takes ages to accelerate and even if you try to dive away from enemy a/c then you better have your prayer book ready!  

Not worth 60 perkies.....
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Pongo on July 25, 2002, 01:01:42 PM
No perk icons have to stay. Why increase the value of the spit further by making people worry that they are tangling with a spit XIV not a spit V?
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: phishnut on July 25, 2002, 01:05:42 PM
But, as the above k/d ratios indicate, many other free planes kill more effectively than the spitxiv, so obviously it's not alot of bang for the buck.
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Vermillion on July 25, 2002, 01:22:52 PM
Sheesh, not again.

The Spit 14 K/D is low for two reasons that have nothing too do with its capabilities.   One is the already discussed "accidental" launch for base defense factor.  Two is what I'll call the :p "spitdweeb" factor.

Bascially these are players who usually fly Spit V's and get just enough perks to finally try out a perk plane, and the first thing they do is jump into a Spit XIV (hey its a Spit so its gotta outturn everything, right?) and go out and try to fly it like a Spit V.  So they go out, turn , turn , turn, and then promptly die.  They just don't know how to fly the proper style to get the most out of the plane.

Put this plane into the hands of people that fly 109's, P-51's, Yak, and other similar types, and this plane is incredibly dangerous.  So please don't try to convince us that it doesn't really deserve to be perked.

If you wanna fly a plane that out performs most others, then be ready to pay the piper.  Both in perk points, and in perk tags.  Get use to it, because I just don't think its gonna change.
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: akak on July 25, 2002, 01:46:49 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Replicant
Okay, the Spit14 can climb well but imo that's about it.  It takes ages to accelerate and even if you try to dive away from enemy a/c then you better have your prayer book ready!  

Not worth 60 perkies.....



Spitfire XIV accelerates like a thoroughbreed with a bottle rocket up its ass, it just doesn't turn very well, a P-38L can out turn one.


P38L vs. Spit14 (http://www.hispanicvista.com/ahfilms/p38lvsspit14.ahf)

 (http://www.hispanicvista.com/assets/479th_shield.jpg)
Ack-Ack
479th Fg - Riddle's Raiders
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Midnight on July 25, 2002, 02:13:19 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Pongo
No perk icons have to stay. Why increase the value of the spit further by making people worry that they are tangling with a spit XIV not a spit V?


Pongo, we do the same thing with 109s already. You don't know if it's a 109-E, 109-F4, 109-G2, 109-G6 or 109-G10 until you get up close enough to actually look at it.

Same with F4s

Same with P51s

Same with P47s

Same with Me-110s

Same with Hurricanes

Same with FW190s

Same with YAKs

There is NO reason to have a plane of the same model type shown as a perk.

I say make the SPIT14 icon just say SPIT
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: SirLoin on July 25, 2002, 02:19:54 PM
What Midnight said..
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: J_A_B on July 25, 2002, 02:20:38 PM
If you can't tell whether you're engaging a P-51B or D, then there's something seriously wrong with you.  One is bright silver, the other is dull green--you can tell them apart even beyond ICON range.  The P-51 is one of the few planes which does NOT gain an advantage from the ICON system (the P-47D-30 being another).

The others for the most part I'll agree with, especially the 109's and 190's and Spits.  I wish the ICONS switched to subtype ICONS at short range (say 1000 yards) because I can't tell a 109G-10 from an F4 at any range.  So I'm forced to treat every 109 I face as if it has the speed of a G-10 but the maneuverability of an F.

And before people start talking about how they're hard to tell apart in reality, I have to ask--how many Bf-109E's were flying front-line combat along side 109G-10's in 1945?

J_A_B
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Nifty on July 25, 2002, 02:24:50 PM
Spit XIV is a monster.  I disco'd in my only MA flight in it though.   Drop the perk tag.  The performance difference between it and the Spit V or Spit I is no different than the performance of a 109G-10 vs a 109E-4.  no tag and 60 points is about right for the stigma of the Spit XIV.   Flown right, this thing is phenomenal!  Flown right, a free 109G-10 and 190D-9 are phenomenal too.  Same for the P-51D.  (point is the Spit XIV is prolly worth about 20pts max, but it's got 40 points extra just for being "SuperSpittie.")

Also, on the subject of icons.  La7 and La5 should be the same.  I wouldn't mind the F4F-4 and FM2 sharing the F4F tag (FM2 basically is a F4F-8 made by GM instead of Grumman.)  c202 and c205 should share a tag.   Me262 and Ar234 are the only perks that should have unique tags.
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Nifty on July 25, 2002, 02:27:38 PM
Midnight, since when do we have more than one Ju88?   all we got is Ju88A-4.  ;)
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Pongo on July 25, 2002, 03:10:53 PM
The only plane sthat really benifits from that icon confusion are the 190D9 and A5.
I aggree that the D9 should have its own icon.
Giving the spits series more confusion than it allready has is silly.
Midnght, have your boys take up the spit xiv for a few sortis as a unit and let us know what your kill to death is in it.
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: RightF00T on July 25, 2002, 03:18:41 PM
Quote
Originally posted by akak
Maybe the reason for the poor stats of the Spitfire Mk XIV is that maybe some that fly it aren't flying it properly.  Seems like a lot of people assume that it's an angles fighter like the other Spitfires when it's not.  Spitfire XIV is an E fighter all the way and would excel in that role when flown properly.  


Ack-Ack


Thrila didnt fly it this way,  I came in with atleast 2k alt adv. and he was forced to "turnfight" extinguishing his ability to climb/run away(I wouldnt take a Spit14 or even a Jug for that matter into that furball area at A9 on Uterus expecting to live-I died 10 mins later to a Spit and La7 duo :)), but if anything I agree the SpitfireXIV is too expensive for the benefits you reap from flying it.
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Replicant on July 25, 2002, 03:46:32 PM
Quote
Originally posted by akak



Spitfire XIV accelerates like a thoroughbreed with a bottle rocket up its ass, it just doesn't turn very well, a P-38L can out turn one.


P38L vs. Spit14 (http://www.hispanicvista.com/ahfilms/p38lvsspit14.ahf)

 (http://www.hispanicvista.com/assets/479th_shield.jpg)
Ack-Ack
479th Fg - Riddle's Raiders


Try diving in a Spit14 when someone is about to bounce you (esecially if you've just been on autoclimb!).  I tell you that its acceleration is much slower than La7, La5, Yaks, N1K2s, 109s (perhaps except E4, F4), Tempest, 190s, etc.  I dare say that it dives slower than a Spit9!  Of course if you're already doing 320 plus then of course it'll accelerate well but between 160 - 280 it is extremely poor.  The only other good thing I find is that it handles extremely well in a high speed dive, i.e. around 500mph.
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: CMC Airboss on July 25, 2002, 03:54:32 PM
Quote
Originally posted by AKDejaVu
Why was it perked?  As a pre-emptive LW whining reduction device.

A whine prevention initiative on these boards, perhaps?  Spit14 postings could have surpassed the Chog whines.

MiG
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Stickman on July 25, 2002, 04:04:45 PM
"Try diving in a Spit14 when someone is about to bounce you (esecially if you've just been on autoclimb!). I tell you that its acceleration is much slower than La7, La5, Yaks, N1K2s, 109s (perhaps except E4, F4), Tempest, 190s, etc. I dare say that it dives slower than a Spit9! Of course if you're already doing 320 plus then of course it'll accelerate well but between 160 - 280 it is extremely poor. "



About the only thing a Spitfire could beat in a dive acceleration in WWII was a Zeke. The Spitfire (ALL of them) were piss poor in a dive. Once they got up to speed they could hold a good top speed in the dive, but they were very slow getting there. If you're getting run down in the initial part of the dive, then good, 'cause you should be.


"The only other good thing I find is that it handles extremely well in a high speed dive, i.e. around 500mph."

And that's exactly opposite how it should be. The Spitfire (except the clipped wing version) handled horrible in a dive. The roll became so slow that it could be considered unmaneuverable and at extreme speeds the wings could twist, giving ailerons the opposite control response. The 109's were just as bad (even a tad worse, or at least the control surface stiffness began at a slightly lower speed).

I wonder, how is this modeled in Aces High? Do control surfaces stiffen at high speeds in the 109, Spitfire, Zekes, etc.?
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: hblair on July 25, 2002, 04:24:56 PM
As always, great points karnak.

IMHO all the perk plane values should be given a look, as well as more of the late war planes added to the list. But hey, the new mission based arena may be out soon and we won't have to care about the MA anymore. :)
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Montezuma on July 25, 2002, 04:41:37 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Nifty
I wouldn't mind the F4F-4 and FM2 sharing the F4F tag (FM2 basically is a F4F-8 made by GM instead of Grumman.)  .


Strange thing I noticed about the wildcats is that if you select 'plane type' icons you will see an 'F4F-4' icon for a friendly FM2, but enemies will see 'FM2'.
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Saintaw on July 25, 2002, 04:48:08 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Shiva


Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt, tum soli proscripti catapultas habebunt.   :)


only when the catapults are forbiden, they get their potential ? (or something similar) :D

... it's been some 15 years +  :cool:
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Wlfgng on July 25, 2002, 04:55:29 PM
people keep saying how perking should/shouldn't be done because this/that aircraft has such and such performance in RL.

again, the perk system isn't about RL performance but more about game play/balance.

It's more likely that it was perked because so many people wanted to fly it... personally I agree.  I'd hate to see the arena dominated by spit14's.
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: SKurj on July 25, 2002, 05:51:41 PM
Karnak... thrila used the jug as a measuring stick not i +)

He flew it once... and made this thread...

Thanks Wmaker


SKurj
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: funkedup on July 25, 2002, 05:59:40 PM
Cerberus est canis.
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Shiva on July 25, 2002, 07:33:51 PM
Quote
only when the catapults are forbiden, they get their potential?


"When catapults are outlawed, only outlaws will have catapults."
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Innominate on July 25, 2002, 07:38:11 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Wlfgng

It's more likely that it was perked because so many people wanted to fly it... personally I agree.  I'd hate to see the arena dominated by spit14's.


The perk system should stop the arena from being dominated by the perk planes, but except for the tempest, 262, and c-hog, it goes too far and makes the perk planes next to un-used.
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: thrila on July 25, 2002, 07:43:50 PM
Skurj, i didn't use the p47 as a measuring stick. the only reason i mentioned the jug was because i got shotdown by one, whatever i got shotdown by i would have moaned about it- it just happened to be a jug.  It could have been anything that shot me down, i would have still made this thread about the spit14 not being worth 60perks.  It was my first spit14 sortie this tour- i don't fly it often because I don't think it's worth it.  This sortie reminded me why i don't fly the spit14.  

P.S. What is it with those mutant smiley's you have, skurj.:p
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Karnak on July 25, 2002, 09:34:13 PM
akak,

The last time I flew it, I flew it as a E fighter (same as I fly the Mk IX usually).  Blew the tail off of a Bf110G-2 (didn't get the kill as he chose to ride it 25,000ft down and I didn't live that long), but was then attacked by a higher F4U-1D (or F4U-1) that had come into icon range as I begain my dive on the 110.  I didn't see him until after I had killed the 110.  I tried to climb away, but he had too much E on me.  I tried to dive away because turning in a perk plane virtually gaurantees that you'll lose it.  This guy was, unfortunatly for me, willing to burn ammo, not a bad shot and lucky.  He got a few pings, them pilot kill.  Climb rate alone cannot get you out of a bad situation.  You need dive speed and level speed to acomplish that.  Climb alone doesn't work because any higher con that shows up completely negates that escape route.  Speed can be equalized by diving (both aircraft will have roughly the same compression limits) and then leveling.  That means a plane like the Me262 or Tempest always has an out if it maintains any reasonable ammount of altitude below it.

If the P-38 can out turn the Mk XIV there is something very wrong in the FM.  The Spitfire  Mk XIV has much, much lower wingloading and a better power to weight ratio.  To put it bluntly, I don't believe that the P-38 can even come close to sustaining a turn fight with a Mk XIV.

Verm,

Read my long post.  I state that the Spitfire Mk XIV is frequently flown incorrectly, when it is flown.  Which is practically never.  Even with its boosted usage due to people mistakenly taking it instead of a Spitfire Mk IX, it only had 376 kills as of yesterday evening.  Clearly the Spitfire Mk XIV, like the F4U-4, are not worth the price.


Remember, the Spitfire Mk XIV must use its WEP in combat or you might as well have taken a Spitfire Mk IX.  Because it has to use its WEP for fighting to even begin to justify its perk price, very little of the WEP is left when it needs to run.  Without WEP a Spitfire Mk XIV climbs at a good, but not steller, 3,900 feet at its best altitude of 11,000ft.  That altitude is too low to be useable, any Spitfire Mk XIV at that low of an altitude in a combat zone is a dead Spitfire Mk XIV unless it has a great stick in it.  The vast majority of us are not great sticks.  At its more survivable altitude of 20,000ft it has a MIL climb of 2,600ft per minute.  At 20,000ft the Spitfire Mk IX climbs at 2,700ft per min. on MIL and 3,300ft on WEP, the Bf109G-10 at 3,400 and 3,700. the Fw190D-9 at 2,400 and 3,000, the P-38L at 2,800 and 3,300, the P-47D-30 at 2,300 and 3,000 and the P-51D at 2,400 and 2,750.  The Spitfire Mk XIV's climb is not that much better at altitude, and down low where its climb rate is that much better there will be enemies coming in from high enough to completely negate its climb, and all of those enemies will be gunning for it.

For what its worth, I think the Spitfire XIV should absolutely be a perk plane.  I simply think that the perk icon renders it unusable.  As AKIron said, double jeopardy is too much to ask.  The perk planes have to be a reward if the perk system is to work, and with gangbang calling icons they aren't anywhere near a reward.  I can get gangbanged for free anytime I want.  All I have to do is fly my Mosquito into an area where the enemy holds the numbers (I fly Rook, its easy to find those places).  Why should I pay 20-70 of my "reward" points just to ecperience that?

SKurj,

CC.  I misunderstood you.  Sorry.

Without the perk icons, the prices are fine.  With the perk icons, the aircraft are pointless.

hblair,

Thanks.  Unfortunately, I won't even fly the Spitfire Mk XIV in the newly proposed arena.  It will still have the "SPIT14" icon and still call a gangbang onto itself.
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Toad on July 25, 2002, 10:43:50 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Raubvogel
Would you have made the same decision if the icon had just said "Spit"? Probably not. That's my point.


Actually, yes. A Spit above a Mustang... probably ANY cannon armed spit anyway... is a serious threat. They dive well, turn just fine and the guns will "do" you in short order.

In fact, now that I think about it.. I really don't like having much of anything above a Mustang. ;)

After all, the Mustang has basically one asset. It's reasonably fast. Not the fastest.. there are lots of other aircraft out there now that can run one down. The rest of the capabilities are essentially "average" for the MA planeset.

So, yeah.. if your plane had just said "Spit" we'd have still tried to deal with you first.

:)
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Urchin on July 26, 2002, 12:08:34 AM
I don't think the "gangbang me' icon has everything to do with it.  Sure, it does have something to do with it (flew one tonight defending a carrier- I had at one point a Spitfire, an La7, and a, get this.. TBM trying to get me).  

Of course, I've had far more than 3 guys on me at any one time in such 'un-gangbang iconed' planes like the 109F4, 190A5, A6M2,etc.  People follow the path of least resistance, remember.  It is probably easier for the 'average' player to kill an enemy with 3 friendlies 'helping' (or competing) than it is for them to kill an enemy alone.  The only thing that can get you out of a gangbang is acceleration (foremost) and top speed (just about as important).  The Spit 14 has one, but not the other.  It is in about the same shows the 109G10 is in, it is almost fast enough to get away, but not quite.  

The Spit 14s 'gangbang' icon just makes it worse though, since people tend to start drooling when they see one.  I would agree that it isn't worth 60 points, or however many it is.  Of course, I very rarely fly perk planes, so I have a freaking horde of perk points built up.  I will say that I don't see the point of putting planes in the game if the average player hardly ever gets to use them though.
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: akak on July 26, 2002, 12:48:43 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
akak,



If the P-38 can out turn the Mk XIV there is something very wrong in the FM.  The Spitfire  Mk XIV has much, much lower wingloading and a better power to weight ratio.  To put it bluntly, I don't believe that the P-38 can even come close to sustaining a turn fight with a Mk XIV.




Here's another film where I turn with another Spitfire XIV in the P-38, only my crappy aim allowed the fight to last as long as it did.

As for someone saying it had poor dive performance and accelertion, there is a point in the fight were the Spitfire XIV tried to make a break for it and dives to the deck.  In his dive, he clearly out dives my P-38L and then when he reaches the deck, accelerates away.  It's only when he reverses and tried again to enter into a turn fight that I'm able to get him.  A definite example of how not to fly the Spitfire XIV, had the pilot used Energy fighting tactics instead of trying to get an angle, out come would have been different.

Someone else posted earlier that it shouldn't be flown like a normal Spitfire and they're right.

P-38L vs. Spitfire Mk XIV Part 2 (http://www.hispanicvista.com/ahfilms/film61.ahf)


(http://www.hispanicvista.com/assets/479th_shield.jpg)
Ack-Ack
479th FG - Riddle's Raiders
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Stickman on July 26, 2002, 01:40:17 AM
Historically, the P38 was, in fact, quite good in a turn. Not because of low wingloading, but rather because it's contra-rotating props gave it a great deal of stability, and also because of it's very gentle stall characteristics. It had no tendancy to snap roll at all, and the stall was very gentle, causing little or no loss in speed or altitude. A good pilot could bring the P38 into and out of a stall and effect a very tight turn rate, where a single engine fighter has to fight engine torque and be careful of a snap-roll all the way 'round. On paper, the Spit XIV should outturn the P38 quite handily, and in real life I doubt any but a reasonably experienced pilot in a P38 would be able to stay with the Spitfire. However, when you put an experienced pilot in the cockpit of the P38, he'll know how to take advantage of the stability and gentle stall and probably stay with the Spitfire through most maneuvers. The Lightning was widely known for it's ability to outfight any other fighter built down low at treetop level. It was it's stability and it's excess of horsepower that made this possible.  Unfortunately, I don't think any sim models the P38 with a stall resembling the real thing, and allowing a P38 to outturn a Spitfire by sheer turn rate isn't really fair; but by the same token, the P38 has never been modeled with the dive acceleration and zoom climb, or even the correct sustained rate of climb it had in real life, so I suppose it evens out, at least a little.  

BTW, the Spit XIV didn't have much greater wingloading than the IX or even the Ia, and most testing showed all Spitfires had pretty much the same turn rate, give or take.
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Vermillion on July 26, 2002, 09:46:52 AM
Where does everyone get the idea that the Spit XIV turns bad?  No, it won't outturn zeke's and Spit V's, but what do you expect?  It will easily outturn anything that is even close to it in speed.  

I think it is Karnak that describes getting jumped by a F4U and trying to dive away? Why?  Proper tactics would have been to turn into the attack, and keep up your speed.  The Spit XIV turns well and retains E very well. After several passes, you would have equalized energy, where you could have chosen to go to an angles fight (which the Spit would win), or had several opportunities to disengage and run since the Spit is much faster.  Nothing personal Karnak, but it sounds like you panic'd when jumped by the Corsair, and made a bad judgement call.  We all make em.

And getting "forced to turnfight it in the furball", as someone else describes, is just an excuse.  That is plain and simple a failure in tactics and SA. A few rules to live by.  Always try to be one of the highest planes in the fight. Set a hard deck and stick too it, above 5k the Spit XIV is one of the fastest planes in the game.  Never ever follow a plane down into the "fur", unless you side has overwhelming numbers and local air superiority, or you will get jumped by follow on enemies and die.  Use vertical moves to reverse, and always bank that E after a gun pass. Learn to make snapshots, and not have to "lock on" an enemies six to get a kill, the Spit has excellent guns.  Never turn more than 90 degrees to follow an enemy. Patience.  Did I mention Patience? And never ever forget to be patient.
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Turbot on July 26, 2002, 11:59:42 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Wlfgng
people keep saying how perking should/shouldn't be done because this/that aircraft has such and such performance in RL.

again, the perk system isn't about RL performance but more about game play/balance.

It's more likely that it was perked because so many people wanted to fly it... personally I agree.  I'd hate to see the arena dominated by spit14's.


He is right you know.   ENY/Perks etc isn't about how "good" a plane is.  The intent (from HTC posts) is to promote a certain arena mix.  Thats all.  One can reasonable assume HTC doesn't want alot of Sp14's flying around, and I guess to that extent the system is workign perfectly?

To get perks at a reasonable rate means you have park your low ENY planes (the planes HTC wants you to fly less) occassionally and and fly high ENY planes (The planes HTC wants to fly more).  Do time in this fashion and you will not care nearly so much about the cost of those perk rides.  
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Vermillion on July 26, 2002, 04:05:45 PM
Too put my money where my mouth is, I just flew two combat sorties in a Spit XIV.  Around 4:00 PM to 4:45 PM EDT.  Up around A44 against the Knits (I was a Bish) and in fact Thrila was there with me.

I flew it just like I fly the Yak.  E fighter, engaging semi-conservatively, but not being too up tight about it using the tactics I described above.

Yup, the perk tag draws enemies like flies to stink. But I gotta say....

This plane is a beast !!!  I ended up with 3 kills, 2 assists, and I had another kill on a La7 when I disco'd that isn't showing up in the stats. Eventually I disco'd with half a tank of gas on my second sortie.  And I never used up more than 1/3 of my ammo.   The fights ranged from 20k down to the deck.

6 seperate planes jumped me with alt advantages.  A Spit V or IX (not sure which), two seperate La7's, a Typhoon, and a winged pair of P-51's that acted like they were using Vox.

Besides the obvious "I wanna get a perk plane desperation HO's",  the Spit had one fleeting shot at me from around 750, but otherwise the only ones to come close were the P-51's.  And obviously they were the toughest because they had 5k alt on me, alot of smash, and cooperated very well.  

They each made 2 BnZ passes on me, as I equalized the E (only using the Spits very nice turnrate to mess up their shots at the last second), and by the third pass the E had equalized enough that I blew thru their next pass and ran for home, they switched to angles fight and dropped onto my six.  The #1 pilot never had a shot at me, but the #2 pilot was able to lead turn me, and dropped onto my six at around 650.  He took several shots at me (but never pinged me) and closed to 475 at his closest before I started to pull away again.  I simply then drug them back to a bunch of approaching friendlies and they were toast.

to the Pony pilots they were quite good.

But back to the point.  Yes the perk tags draw alot of attention, but the plane is very very capable.  And if it had more ammo, I think I would prefer it too the Tempest.  No its not, jump into the nearest furball, slay all enemies, and fly away untouched.  But fly it like an E fighter, and its a pure blooded killer.

No wait.... I've changed my mind.  UPERK the Spit XIV !!! I would love to fly it every sortie :p
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Karnak on July 26, 2002, 07:54:28 PM
Verm, if I'd started to turn every other enemy in icon range would have been on me, and I would have been slow due to E loss from turning.  They would have then taken turns BnZing me and I would have died.

I dove to try to equalize my E state with the F4U so I could climb away, unfortunately he got me before that could happen.

You turn, you die.  Its as simple as that.  Never, ever turn a perk plane if there is an enemy within D3 of you and always run from a higher con.

I've read of Spit XIV squadrons climbing into LW attacks with the throttle wide open.  That'll never happen here because the price combined with the icon puts to much at risk and focuses the attention on you.

Perk planes (except the Me262 and F4U-1C) are forced to fly in overly conservative ways.

Do you really think that ~300 Spitfire Mk XIV sorties are where it should be?  That's half what the Ta152H-1 gets.
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Vermillion on July 26, 2002, 09:31:57 PM
Karnak,

I hope your coming to the Con this year.

We'll fly a Spit XIV sortie together.  If we don't both make it home, and get at least 4+ kills together, I'll buy the alcohol for the night :)
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Urchin on July 26, 2002, 09:47:38 PM
Oh oh.. I wanna go.. I won't have any money to buy alcohol with, so I need Verms money :D.
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Kweassa on July 26, 2002, 10:04:27 PM
I think Spit14 is tougher in turn fighting because the sheer force of torque is sometimes amazingly overwhelming. Heck, I think even turn fighting with 109G-10s is easier than in a Spit14.

  It's a capable turner, and my guess is it would turn about like a La-5FN at mid-high speeds, little tighter than a Yak, somewhat better than a 109G-2, but not as good as a 109F-4. So, flying near the edge of the envelope and bringing out full turn potential at low-mid speeds is very challenging.

 Not that I'm complaining though. I actually like it that way ;)

 My only gripe is wishing other so called 'turners' would also need careful management to bring out full turning rates. God would I love to see the faces of people flying Spit9s and 5s and N1K2s succumb to stall and torque when they just hard-pull the stick ;)

 I know the torque isn't as big as Spit14s on the Spit9s and Spit5s, but shouldn't they at least have some sort of general simularity when they meet near stall conditions? Well, um.. as a matter of fact, shouldn't all planes?
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: akak on July 27, 2002, 12:04:06 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa


 My only gripe is wishing other so called 'turners' would also need careful management to bring out full turning rates. God would I love to see the faces of people flying Spit9s and 5s and N1K2s succumb to stall and torque when they just hard-pull the stick ;)

 I know the torque isn't as big as Spit14s on the Spit9s and Spit5s, but shouldn't they at least have some sort of general simularity when they meet near stall conditions? Well, um.. as a matter of fact, shouldn't all planes?



I thought Niki's were the only ones that didn't have torque properly modeled at low speeds.  So the other fighters (except P-38) have this same problem?


Ack-Ack
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Karnak on July 27, 2002, 12:56:43 AM
I'd like that Verm, but unfortunatley I  have been hit very, very hard by the economic bubble's popping.

I am fighting off bankruptcy month to month and coming to the con or paying my mortgage for another month was not a really hard choice.

Hopefully I will have found a stable job soon and be able to come to the 2003 Con. (I really, really want a job that pays enogh and is stable.  This constant financial anxiety sucks bigtime.)
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Kweassa on July 27, 2002, 02:25:01 AM
Quote
I thought Niki's were the only ones that didn't have torque properly modeled at low speeds. So the other fighters (except P-38) have this same problem?


 Frankly ak, I'm a layman at these things and not sure what kind of stall one would expect from a fighter. But it seems the better turning planes are pretty easy to control in tight turn situations. Probably because they turn good in the first place, and have a low stall speed, but frankly all they gotta do is keep throttle full up, yank the stick and listen to the stall warning sound and keep the sound at that level. Better coordinated turns might be achieved with rudder input and careful yaw management, but basically it's pretty simple to bring out the 'edge of the envelope'.

 I'm not sure if this is all subjective bias towards Spits and N1K2s, but whereas many other planes generally need careful yaw controlling due to torque forces growing near the edge of stall, Spitfires and N1K2s seem to feel the torque only after they stalled, not before. Other planes would near stall, begin shaking in the yaw axis, and then flip over to the torqued direction. Spits and N1K2s seem to near stall, hear the stall sound get bigger, but still remain turning clean, and then the stall comes, and then flip over.

 As I said this could be probably all subjective, and maybe only I feel that way. maybe Spits and N1K2s would really be that stable even when stall is imminent. Just stop 1 degree before the stall AoA and all's fine, keep turning like that... I'm just curious, that's all. Really really no intent of whine.

 ....

 Maybe it's the way stall is modeled in AH. In IL-2 it's very different. When you meat stall, the plane flips over into a spin, and when not treated right, it quickly develops into a flat spin on the yaw axis, which is almost impossible to recover without humongous alt. I don't think I've seen something like this in AH, unless you were shaking the stick around and intently trying for a flat spin. Again, I'm not sure what's closer to the real thing. All I can say is IL-2 is harsher in stalls, and generally makes people think twice before yanking on the stick to a tight turn, whereas in AH, you could stall, recover in half a second, and then keep the turn. If anyone has a near-fatal stall experience(heavens..!), I sure would like to know which is modelled closer to the real thing! :o
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Kweassa on July 27, 2002, 02:38:09 AM
Anyhow, what I was trying to say was Spit14 has about the best turn rate for any plane that goes faster than 400mph, but still it makes people think twice before going into a turn fight, because the torque, if not managed and countered properly, just shakes the Spit14 off balance violently.

 My first combat experience with Spit14 was in a testing in H2H.

  I wasn't aware of this when I first tried the Spit14, pit myself against a La-7 in a turnfight. The Spit14 ofcourse, outturned the La-7, but I missed a good shot, so the turn fight continued to low speeds. I began hearing stall warnings, but I thought to myself "hmm.. even if I stall momentarily, I can always recover in 0.5 seconds.. I'll continue at this rate" and kept pushing the Spit14.. and then came the shakings, and a very violent flip(compared to Spit9s and 5s, and N1K2s, that is) which I couldn't just shrug off! I let the stick loose, lessend the AoA, the stall sound went fade. Then I began pulling hard again. To my surprise, the Spit14 stalled even worse than before the moment I did that.

 Now, all my experience with trying the other Spits were different. When I would feel the Spit5 or 9 entered a stall and began the flip-over, I'd ease the pressure, and when the stall sound begins to fade, I could always pull as hard as before and keep turning until the next stall came.
 
 The result was I augered 2000 feet straight and crashed.

 This case was seen more clearly in a vertical situation. When in a tight Immelmann, sometimes the a Spitfire follows a con up, but can't keep the nose up enough to get a good distance at 700~800 yard distance. But before the guy who went vertical turned his plane nose down, the Spitfire turns momentarily level, gains about 150~180mph speed, and then noses up again and meets the guy head-on. I tried this with a Spit14 too. The toruqe was huge, the guy went vertical, I stopped the vertical around 120 mph and went level as my Spit started giving out stall warnings. Gained a bit of speed up to 180 mpg, gently pulled the stick to nose up again and then WHAM!. Stall. You can't do this in a Spit14.

...

 So, what I was curious about, was, yes, the Spit14 has immensely larger torque than the Spit9 or 5. Much powerful engine. But still, in really tight situations, shouldn't Spit9s and 5s act that way, too?

 As for N1K2s, I remember HTs comment on one of Mandoble's threads that he doesn't find anything necessary to fix on the N1K2 torque.

(ps: but ofcourse, that's what HT first claimed about Chogs and N1K2s, before their flight models were adjusted)
Title: even better icon idea!!
Post by: ccvi on July 27, 2002, 03:38:27 AM
Those plane identification icons are useless anyway. replace them with something better: the perk price of the aircraft. then "0" would show for most, and correct prices for all perked rides. oh yeah, and make it so you earn half of the perk points from the plane you shoot down :)
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Turbot on July 27, 2002, 10:12:25 AM
Why mix and match? If you are going to have tags at all, why not make them all descriptive. SP1 SFIRE SP9 F4U1 F4UC etc etc.
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: J_A_B on July 27, 2002, 12:06:28 PM
Remember another reason the Spit 14's torque will feel a LOT different from that of the Mk 5 or 9 is the engine turns the other direction.

J_A_B
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: DblTrubl on July 27, 2002, 01:38:17 PM
Quote
Originally posted by akak
Spitfire XIV accelerates like a thoroughbreed with a bottle rocket up its ass, it just doesn't turn very well, a P-38L can out turn one.


AKAK, I don't think that film of our fight proves that a P-38L can out turn a Spit XIV (lol damn you for posting it...I'll get you for that you bastage ;) ). What the film doesn't show is that you started with a healthy altitude advantage. When you rolled film you were slightly below me, but 200mph faster. For the duration of the engagement I was trying to chip away at your E advantage, not bury the stick in my lap and see how tight it would turn. My mistake was rolling out of my climb just a second too soon when trying to force the overshoot. Obviously, that put me right in front of you, and you made the shot (nice one btw). I guess my point is that wasn't really a turning contest. Yes, there was manuevering, but most was in the vertical.  IMO the only thing it proves is that I shouldn't fly XIVs. :D

Let me put it to you this way: You're tooling along in your 38 minding your own business when all of a sudden you look back and see an enemy Spit14 d500 on your 6 and closing slowly. Are you really just going to break hard one way or the other and be confident that after a couple of circles you will have reversed the situation and have that Spitty on the defensive? Even with the tanks nearly dry I don't think I'd try that and expect to live.
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: laz on July 27, 2002, 02:24:41 PM
Spit14 should laugh at a p38 when he sees it coalt.  Only way you will kill spit14 (that has some brains) will be to have alt on it.  I tend to move 38 pretty decent compared to others, and I have problems defending myself against a coalt 14 :D
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: laz on July 27, 2002, 02:28:08 PM
And yes, that icon idea is good, As well including 190's/109s and others in the same state of name.  knowing what your flying against can greatly impact the outcome of a fight. :D
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Voss on July 28, 2002, 01:05:10 AM
My experiments with the Spit Mk.XIV indicate it needs to be left perked. Yes, it attracts bandits and that's probably the reason it's k/d is so low. Not many people fly wisely in the MA and I think that's a contributor, too.

The Spit XIV is fast, it can turn, it can take punishment, and it can deal it back.
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Karnak on July 28, 2002, 02:40:13 AM
Voss,

I agree with everything you said, except that it can take punishment.  In my experience the first hit it takes kills its oil or radiator.  It seems more fragile than the earlier Spits, but that's probably just psychosomatic.
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Mino on July 28, 2002, 12:22:26 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Considering that nothing can outclimb it to 20,000 feet (I've tested it against the G10 offline), it should be 100 perks.


Your point is?

The G10 should carry 30 perks per ride?

Just wondering....

Anyway; IMO the perk system does not work all that well.  It creates many negative mixed feelings and it is not all that worth while in MA.
Title: My spit14 costs too much thread.
Post by: Innominate on July 28, 2002, 12:43:32 PM
I am assuming that the purpose of the perk system is to reward people for flying the early war planes, If this isn't true, someone correct me.

Note the key to the whole thing, a reward.  You need to get something.  The only perk planes which fall into that category are the tempest, chog, and 262.  The rest are not the slightest bit fun to fly.  Flying a perk plane should be fun, you should fly a bit more conservativly of course, but that should be for only the reason of losing your perks.  You shouldn't have to fly conservativly to prevent being attacked by every fighter within 5000yards.

A perk plane flown as if it weren't a perk plane (Excepting the 262 of course) should have the same success as a non-perk plane.  Unless of course someone gets close enough to ID the paint scheme, and scream "GANGBAAAAAAAANG!!!!!".