Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: rv6 on July 25, 2002, 07:07:45 AM
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Hi All,
Last night, I spent some time in "training" arena after several successful "vulch fests" in the MA.. (good GAWD what fun to be the vulch-ER instead of the vulch-EE for a change ~)
Anyways.. There's this nice fellow in "training" flying a Hurricane (not widely used in the MA). I flew a Zeke w/ 25% fuel,, and we had at it.
Co-alt, co speed, same-same~ He out-looped me in 5 seconds, and shot me down.:eek:
Next go 'round, he continues to chip away, out-looping me, with these little extension / split-s combos.. Finally we're down on the deck,, LOW & SLOW,, the zekes stall horn a solid "BuzzZZZZZZZ"..
HE STILL OUT-TURNS ME IN A HURRICANE?! Doing the same little extension, turn-on-a-dime, then deflection nose shoot me!! Uuugh~
He nailed me 6 times in a row. I can usually hold my own,, especially on the deck in a zeke. But THIS was unbelievable.
OH! AND FURTHER MORE.. (almost forgot) I finally upp'd in a lite Hurricane too. You guess'd it. He STILL out-turns me!! :mad:
I bowed at the waist, , and quit, a broken man.
I don't believe in the "cheating"/"hacker" thing in AH,, so what am I missing here? Hoy Vay..
Any insight appreciated.. (this Hurricane dude has put the fear of Gawd in me!)
Thnx,
RV6
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Propably auto combat trim off and using manual trim?
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Flaps? Maybe he uses flaps and u not?
With flaps i cant even turn with a N1K in my 110G2 (not for long but i can turn).
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Btw what hurri and what zeke? Models?
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He used a Hurricane IID,, I used the A6M5 Zeke,, I used flaps, no flaps, wheels down, wheels up, rudder skids/slips to off-angle deflection shots on pass-by, hammer-head drop-down stream shots.. yada, yada, yada,, believe me, I tried every trick I could recall since I was playing AW in the GEnie network days in 1980's! No dice,, not even close.
(Matter of fact).. I was in HT's squad back in the AW days (FUBARS).. @ $6 per hr online.
At noon, no one else online but us, we'd duel, me in Zeke, he in that confounded F4U he loved so.
If I could get him on the deck (1 in 20 tries!),, I'd win. But this little fellow in his Huri last night was unbeatable from any angle, alt, or speed.
Oh well,, back to being the Vulch-EE in MA..
HAAhhahaaa..
Thanks for the replies,
RV6 ~
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I consider Hurri I/II as one of the best maneuvreable plane in AH. (even Spit can envy ;)) The difference may be in trim use as others stated. Did you use combat trim? Next time try the manual elevator trim to tight your turns.
Originally posted by Duedel
Flaps? Maybe he uses flaps and u not?
With flaps i cant even turn with a N1K in my 110G2 (not for long but i can turn).
Don`t use flaps in combat in Hurri (or Spit). They have not combat flaps, just landing flaps which slows down the plane too much but doesn`t increase its maneuvreability. Hurri with lowered flaps is like sitting duck waiting to be killed ;-)
czpetr
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Trim on, trim off, and even without any flaps, a Zeke will out-turn a Hurricane. Using flaps in the Hurricane is always a mistake. To deploy flaps, you must get your speed below 160 mph. Don't use them, any pilot with even a glimmer of skill will kill the Hurri in a short second.
What I believe happened is that the guy flying the Hurricane simply managed his E better than RV6. Zekes can turn incredibly tight circles. However, if you get them too slow, you can be beaten by any fighter.
Ultra-slow, super tight turns inherently have a low rate of turn. In other words, degrees per second of turn rate. Moreover, at 500 yards the angles change little, making the Zeke extremely vulnerable to a snap-shot, at which, the Hurricane's Hispanos are extremely dangerous.
Another factor could be pulling excessive G. Nothing leads to losing the advantage faster than blacking out and not being able to track the enemy fighter, who may reverse or go vertical while you cannot see. Situational Awareness goes out the window if you can't see the enemy. Finally, Zekes are very poor rollers at speeds in excess of 300 mph. At high speed, you must maneuver in the vertical. Two reasons for this. 1) It reduces your speed rapidly, allowing you to roll faster. 2) Nothing can follow a Zero in a tight vertical loop. Nothing….
I suspect that RV6 killed his speed to the point that he became an easy snap-shot target for the faster moving Hurricane. He should also stick to a lag pursuit, rather than lead pursuit, as this only works to the Zeke's weakness in roll rate. The Hurricane can reverse much faster, or reverse into a high yo-yo, then drop in for snap-shot. And, if the Zeke pilot is pulling hard enough to blackout, he'll never see it reverse.
Zekes should fight Hurricanes using its vastly superior vertical maneuvering performance. Should the Hurricane try to do likewise, it will bleed E like a pig and become little more than a stationary target. Same tactics will work with the FM-2 and F4F-4, although both are better turners than the Hurricane IIC.
One other point. It is not unusual to encounter highly skilled pilots in the TA out to have a party at the expense of newbies. Make note of the other pilot's name and check their score before becoming too discouraged. You may have been facing an expert. In which case, consider it a valuable ACM lesson, not a beatdown.
My regards,
Widewing
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Down low and slow I routinely outmanuver Zekes... so far this tour I have 61 kills and 20 deaths in the Mk.IIc
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Hi Widewing,
Your reply makes perfect sense.. He sure out-rolled me. What really floored me was the darn loops. And, I took your suggestion and checked the fellows' MA Score: He's ranked 328th and I'm at 306th.. so we're probably same/same skill wise.
But, that darn'd Hurricane aye.. Live n' learn. I wonder if it was like this in the real-deal in Pacific Theatre? Interesting.. will do some reading on it..
Thanks,
RV6 ~
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Lot of pings or a few pings? It's a close match for the hurri IIc, but if it's the hurri I the zeke better b&z, it can't turn.
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DoctorYo's tactics n this fight...
both are merging, DoctorYo's zeke rolls 90 deg near the merge to give the hurri a nice illusion that im going to turn with him and play fair. That is not the case as we pass i look and see what he does, if he bites on the fake turn then he is dead( low g immel; out e him and use superior e and turn to send him into the ground.) If he is smart and immels himeself then i extend and repeat. If he extends at the merge then i run him down in the zeke with a High speed climb of 1.5k at 275mph.
Note at the top of my immel if he trys to low speed hispo spray and pray then i end my immel with spiral climb. (now he's toast)
No stinking hurri dawg (with its primitive engine) will take my zeke with exception to net lagg or disco....
hurricane is totally outclassed by the zekes engine, which shows how much of a dog the hurricane is.
Under 300mph the zeke is a excellent b&z platform that can energy fight the hell out of the majority of the arena planes. To bad (or good for the arenas) that no one flys em this way that I know but me.
my 2 cents....
DoctorYO
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one possiblity is the use of manual trim to aid elevator deflection. In the 109 it's almost a necessity. Not sure about the hurri though. I don't even have training wheels for it.
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Originally posted by DoctorYO
DoctorYo's tactics n this fight...
both are merging, DoctorYo's zeke rolls 90 deg near the merge to give the hurri a nice illusion that im going to turn with him and play fair. That is not the case as we pass i look and see what he does, if he bites on the fake turn then he is dead( low g immel; out e him and use superior e and turn to send him into the ground.) If he is smart and immels himeself then i extend and repeat. If he extends at the merge then i run him down in the zeke with a High speed climb of 1.5k at 275mph.
Note at the top of my immel if he trys to low speed hispo spray and pray then i end my immel with spiral climb. (now he's toast)
No stinking hurri dawg (with its primitive engine) will take my zeke with exception to net lagg or disco....
hurricane is totally outclassed by the zekes engine, which shows how much of a dog the hurricane is.
Under 300mph the zeke is a excellent b&z platform that can energy fight the hell out of the majority of the arena planes. To bad (or good for the arenas) that no one flys em this way that I know but me.
my 2 cents....
DoctorYO
Hurri II, isnt my hurric I :), i have yet to be out turned in Hurricane I by the green zeke. havent fought they white 1 yet.
whels
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i have never been out turned in my hurr I
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Originally posted by whels
Hurri II, isnt my hurric I :), i have yet to be out turned in Hurricane I by the green zeke. havent fought they white 1 yet.
whels
The A6M2 turns a lot better than the A6M5, and consequently, will eat the Hurricane I for breakfast, pilots being of equal skill. That damn thing is like a Pitts Special. However, the Hurricane I rolls better and accelerates faster in a dive. Whatever you do, avoid fighting uphill with the white Zeke, its low-speed handling is amazing.
My regards,
Widewing
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The monsters of low speeds are the Seafire and Spit V, these airplanes don't know the word STALL. The Spit V can make flat turns 80Mph with 50% fuel + flaps without stalls, the A6M5 only 100Mph. Also the AH Spits and AH Hurri have very best roll-rate what Zekes when speed below 200Mph. Historically ridiculous, but here the spits and hurris are more maneuverables.
An experienced pilot can make magic moves with Seafire and Spit V, I am remembering my combat against one Seafire flow by Lazer, the last night.
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I tested the HurryI against the a6m5 in the TA the other day.
I and my opponent were curious about the turning rate.
It turned out that he was able to turn better in the zeke, only by a little margin, - I guess he needed about 10 full circles to get on my 6. He would have out-turned the HurriIIC easier.
In a dogfight he won, however I did get some shots at him, - had I been flying the HurryII, he would have been toast.
We were always quite low, so not much vertical space.
In a typical situation, planes starting head on, and with some altitude to play, I would put my money on the HurryIIC rather than the zero, however if the fight gets low and slow the zero will win. But while the Hurry has speed and alt, it has a good chance of a Hizooka snap shots, and those are deadly.
Actually, I think HTC shows some mercy to the zekes FM, for although it may roll badly over 300 mph, it should hardly roll at all! And it will dive too fast as well....
BTW, who said that the FM2 out-turns a hurricane? I don't belive that, sorry
:confused:
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No Hurricane, whatever the type, out turns a Zero, whatever the type, period.
There are a lot of factors involved here: a skilled HurriI pilot might get enough shots in to damage a Zeke if he gets the first advantage, or a HurriIIC can end the fight quick by getting a gun solution whatever way he can, but if the fight develops into a full-length hairy turn fight, provided pilot skills are equal the Zero usually ends up victorious.
I suspect the Hurricane pilot was more than meets the eye, and used some clever angles/E/flightpath management. The usual "loop fights", despite what they look, a skilled pilot can work some tricks in so after a few loops he can get a small margin of angles/Energy advantage which is enough to down a plane. If it was a just plain and simple "pull stick as hard as possible" turn fight, there is no way a Hurricane could have won a tight turn fight against a Zero.
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Gotta agree with Kweassa here. Spent a fair bit of time in Hurri's myself and, with all things being equal, in stall fights the zekes have the tighter turn. If flown by a pilot of comparible skill, which is a pretty low bar to get over using me as the benchmark :->.
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welp when i have been flying the hurr I i have out turned a zeke many many times...........i got a pic of me killing 7 of them if you go look at the thread "zero a dweeb ride?" in Free multiplayer fourms................ but u alos have to be a skilled pilot in the hurri u got to use WEP and u will slowly win......but u will win in a accual TURN fight..............and yes 90% of the time i have out turned them on a equal basis 5% they had the advantige 5% i had the advantige