Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Ripsnort on July 25, 2002, 11:01:34 AM
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If you know anyone affected by all of the IT layoffs, please forward this to them...and check this site...while it still exists...(and all of the links...they are quite interesting...get pro-active on the petition...politicians notice stuff like that...and check Sun Microsystem's class- action suit.
http://www.zazona.com/ShameH1B/
> Here's the story of a US CITIZEN, a highly skilled
> technical worker. Read it and take action TODAY.
> Tomorrow it could be you. The future of your
> children is in jeopardy, if you do not act today
> they will have none.
> ==================================================
>
> Where Did All The Jobs Go? - The H-1B Situation
>
> I am a software engineer currently looking for work. My
> job skills are current. In fact, I filed a patent at my last
> employer. I have submitted hundreds of resumes for
> various positions. I have only had a few job interviews.
> However, those interviews were quite informative. For
> example, on a recent interview, I immediately noticed
> that the software managers and engineers were from other
> countries. This appears to be the situation at all the
> companies I have recently interviewed with.
>
> I was aware that Congress had recently doubled the
> number of H-1B visas for skilled foreign workers. In fact,
> 1,000,000 H-1B workers will be employed in the U.S. by
> the end of 2002. That's right - one million people. That's a
> lot of jobs especially since unemployment is at record
> highs.
>
> What is the H-1B program? If you don't know about it,
> you better learn about it quickly because it may be the
> reason you don't have a job. "The H-1B non-immigrant
> program is a voluntary program that allows employers to
> temporarily import and employ non-immigrants admitted
> under H-1B visas to fill specialized jobs not filled by U.S.
> workers."
> http://www.dol.gov/dol/eta/public/regs/fedreg/final/2000122001.htm
>
> Each company hiring an H-1B employee is required to
> file a Labor Condition Application (LCA). An LCA is an
> application filed by a company that wants to hire a
> foreign national to fill a position within the United States.
> With this in mind, I wanted to determine how many
> engineering positions were filled by H-1B engineers at a
> given company. Since this should be public information, I
> went to my trusty search engine looking for a LCA
> database. For some reason, it does not appear that the INS
> ( http://www.ins.gov) or other government web sites
> provide a LCA database. However, I finally found a web
> site which has a LCA database at
> http://www.zazona.com
>
> The database link is at
> http://www.zazona.com/LCA-Data
> Their advanced database search is very helpful. For
> example in the advanced search, select the state as
> California, enter a city as Santa Clara, enter the employer
> name as Hewlett Packard and enter number of records as
> 50 then press the submit query button. You can see the
> positions and salaries of the H-1B employees. Looking at
> the data, we are not talking about a few dozen positions.
> We are talking about literally hundreds of positions. This
> is only for the HP offices in Santa Clara. Go back and do
> the above search but leave the enter a city blank. You will
> see that Hewlett Packard employs hundreds and hundreds
> of H-1B workers. Moreover, we are not only losing
> engineering jobs but H-1B visas are being granted for
> almost any conceivable position. Just look at the LCA
> database to see what types of jobs are being denied to
> U.S. citizens.
>
> This appears to be the only site with a LCA database so I
> wondered who created the site. There is an interesting
> article about its creator at
> http://www.sacbee.com/content/opinion/story/1094647p-1159082c.html
>
> With the current economic conditions, many large firms
> have instigated massive layoffs. Many engineers have
> been unable to find work for months. As mentioned
> above, the H-1B program allows employers to
> temporarily import and employ non U.S. citizens to fill
> specialized jobs not filled by U.S. workers. Go back and
> look at the list of jobs filled at Hewlett Packard by H-1B
> employees. I personally know of many individuals who
> are qualified for those positions but are unable to find
> work. Something is seriously wrong.
>
> I've been told by many permanent and contract hiring
> agencies that companies now prefer to hire H-1B workers
> and work them long hours at lower wages - knowing they
> won't say anything fearing they would lose their H-1B
> status. At my last firm, the engineering manager had his
> engineers working many weekends. When one of the H-
> 1B engineers complained, he said that there were plenty
> of engineers in Taiwan that wanted his place. I have
> heard other engineers say that managers like to threaten
> H-1B engineers with losing their H-1B status unless they
> do exactly what they are told. I've also heard and
> personally noticed that many companies are hiring H-1B
> managers with the expressed purpose of having them fill
> engineering positions with H-1B engineers from their
> respective country. Many companies are finding this an
> inexpensive way to lower costs as discussed in a recent
> USA Today article titled "Tech Firms' Hiring Practices
> Ignore Idle Americans"
> http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20011205/3673849s.htm
> Dr. Norman Matloff, professor of computer science at the
> University of California at Davis, also supports these
> findings.
> http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.html
>
> Someone wrote me to ask "Why do US citizens deserve
> the jobs more than H-1B workers?" Well, think about it.
> If tomorrow, 1,000,000 technical jobs in say New Delhi
> were suddenly replaced by American workers, the Indian
> government would be very upset. The problem is the
> sheer number of people since one million H-1B workers
> will be employed in the U.S. by the end of 2002. There
> needs to be a more balanced system in which everyone
> comes out ahead. Countries need to provide the
> infrastructure for their own engineers to develop
> businesses and find employment at home. Globalization
> should mean that software projects are jointly developed
> between countries rather than having everyone move
> here. The myth is that the U.S. has unlimited space but
> just look at the traffic congestion in most U.S. cities.
> What was initially a reasonable idea has grown into a
> monster of unreasonable size.
>
> Another person wrote me to say "If economics is the
> corporate motivation, isn't it more effective to take the
> entire division offshore? You don't need any H1-B visas
> for that." You have to remember there is a good reason
> that everyone is coming here rather than starting
> companies in other countries. The infrastructure of roads,
> legal systems, communications and schools does not exist
> in most countries. This infrastructure exists because U.S.
> taxpayers have been paying for it over many years. If
> companies had to build a similar infrastructure offshore,
> the cost would be prohibitive for them. The H1-Bs use
> our schools, roads, etc. but have not had to pay taxes over
> many years for their construction. Hence, citizens paid
> for the schools and roads which companies use for H1-Bs
> to replace citizens. So companies and H1-Bs get a free
> lunch. I am not saying we should not have any H-1Bs, the
> problem is that we are talking about hundreds of
> thousands of H-1Bs. This is having a major impact on the
> technical labor market.
>
> The U.S. is one of the few countries which now offers
> unlimited access to its job market at the expense of its
> own citizens. While going to college, if I had any idea
> that most of the engineering positions would be taken by
> H-1B labor, I would never have become an engineer. I
> advise young people not to become involved in
> engineering since companies find it easier to hire less
> expensive H-1B labor. The H-1B managers prefer to hire
> more H-1B labor - it's only human nature - so you have a
> vicious cycle. The end result is that U.S. citizens need not
> apply. This is the situation for the majority of companies
> in my area.
>
> The other issue is that U.S. engineering firms are no
> longer hiring African and Hispanic Americans. I've
> noticed that many firms with H-1B managers have no
> African and Hispanic Americans on their staff. We need
> to hire minority Americans at home before we run off and
> hire everyone from elsewhere.
>
> I believe with the current economic conditions the H-1B
> issue will become a very important topic in the coming
> months. Frankly, the media and press have not discussed
> the seriousness of this subject. Why? I believe they did
> not have the tools and databases required to see the size
> of the problem. Fortunately, the LCA data is now
> available at ( http://www.zazona.com). You can now
> determine how many and what type of jobs are being
> denied to unemployed U.S. citizens at a given company
> and location.
>
> The H-1B law says it is to "temporarily import and
> employ ... specialized jobs not filled by U.S. workers".
> Thus, the law was intended for "temporary" rather than
> permanent labor. The law was clearly not intended to
> deny U.S. citizens jobs but this is precisely what it is
> doing during this difficult economic time. What needs to
> be done to correct this grievous situation?
>
Continued next post
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Cont.
> Congress needs to enforce the law by requiring
> companies to provide immediate employment to qualified
> unemployed U.S. citizens if an H-1B employee is filling a
> position a citizen is qualified for. When a company has
> layoffs, Congress should force companies to obey the law
> by discharging H-1B employees before U.S. citizens. It's
> the law. Whether Congress enforces the law is another
> matter.
>
> It is ironic that the same corporations displaying football
> field size American flags are the worse offenders. They
> are making the technology sector as dependent upon
> foreign labor as we are dependent upon foreign oil.
> Because of their lust for profits, our government,
> banking, financial and technology systems are now
> heavily in the hands of non citizens. Companies are using
> the system to their own advantage while pitting U.S.
> employees against H-1B employees and cruelly hurting
> both.
> If the current H-1B situation is not immediately changed,
> U.S. citizens will abandon the engineering field. Think
> about it. You just lost your job and go to the LCA
> database to learn that 25 H-1B employees are still
> working in your position. You will not be a happy
> camper. What can you do to help?
>
> Email this article to all your friends.
>
> Encourage them to look at the LCA database.
> http://www.zazona.com/LCA-Data/
> The job they are losing may be on the list.
>
> Sign the petition. You will find a petition to send to your
> congressional representatives at
> http://www.zazona.com/H1BPetition/P/petition.html
>
> Your most powerful action is to write your U.S.
> Congressperson and Senators. Remember, H-1B
> employees cannot vote but as a U.S. citizen, your vote
> counts. Even though powerful companies have heavily
> contributed to your congressional leaders to keep the H-
> 1B laws in place, companies cannot vote - only you can.
> Don't let your job be eliminated next.
>
> You can find your congressional representative at these
> links.
> Your Congressperson
> http://www.house.gov/writerep/
> Your Senators
> http://www.senate.gov/contacting/index_by_state.cfm
>
> Don't forget to both email and make a phone call to your
> local Congressperson.
>
> Write the business and political editors of your local
> newspaper.
>
> The following academic articles should be of interest:
>
> Dr. Norman Matloff is a professor of computer science at
> the
> University of California at Davis
> http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.html
>
> August 5, 1999 Testimony of Gene A. Nelson, Ph.D.
> http://www.house.gov/judiciary/nels0805.htm
>
> Thank you for your support.
>
> Unemployed Engineer
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I might add, Boeing is cutting almost ALL its IT and IS jobs as I type, offloading to India and Russia. They were honest and told us "We pay them 50% of the wages we pay you."
Looks like my 20 years is worth nothing, I'll be very fortunate to be employed here by the end of this year, if not this year, next year for sure (chopping block)
:(
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Ya Rip , I call it the "Race to the Bottom" sydrome :eek:
also u know "Less is more" don't ya's ? :( Less money
for the workers means more for Co.
Wonder how the unions in this country started ? I don't , not
for one minute .
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As a member of our local Manufacturing Industry Council, I am directly involved with our local universities and community colleges in curriculum development. One of the major issues facing California in particular is a shortage of Science and Engineering majors. We are looking at a huge shortfall over the next 5 years. I guess what I'm saying here is that there are 2 sides to the H1B visa issue. Many tech companies simply can't find locals with the proper training.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
As a member of our local Manufacturing Industry Council, I am directly involved with our local universities and community colleges in curriculum development. One of the major issues facing California in particular is a shortage of Science and Engineering majors. We are looking at a huge shortfall over the next 5 years. I guess what I'm saying here is that there are 2 sides to the H1B visa issue. Many tech companies simply can't find locals with the proper training.
Yeah MT, and many companies use these rules to hire foreign workers based upon wage demands. I'm surprised Ripsnort would post this because the backers of this are the most conservative members of Congress and GWB while the opponets are those with ties to organized labor.
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If that guy was interviewed by Canadians on HB1s..he wouldnt even know...lol
Watch the turmoil as those HB1s start to get not renewed.
Lots of whining as uncle sam tells the foreign geeks to go home...
They have to move imedialty to drop the HB1s down to the levels they were at a few years ago..60k. I think its at 200k right now and that will just lead to tragedy.
I was so close a few times to working at Boeing and at a company in Colorado, glad to be here in canada now.
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Check the "Made in" labels in your clothes.
Global economy.
No such thing as a career anymore, just a series of jobs. I work IT in telecom and my company just offered stock options that become eligible in 10 years. Yeah, right. Like we're going to be around then to collect'em.
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12,708
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sigh... no sense if even completing my MCSE then ?
hehe
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MT, the author of the article noted that HB1's are a good thing, and necessary (such as in your local area.) They are a bad thing when there ARE skilled US workers who want the jobs, but the companies hire the HB1's instead. I'm guessing not only do they pay them less in wages, but they don't have to cover benefits as well.
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I am, as you succinctly put it, an H1-B foriegn Geek. I am going home this year. My visa goes until next May and my company is willing to sponsor me again if I wanted but I'd rather head back to the UK (don't get me wrong, I like the US, but it's note home to me). I also regualarly get offer from other campanies who are willing to sponsor me (and these offere aren't at cheap rate).
I get payed the same as my US colleagues and work the same hours. If I was treated worse than my colleagues I would have left. I think you underestimate the expense, work, complexity and time it takes to get a visa (I've done it twice now).
There has certainly been a vast plunge in the number of companies willing to do it (especially among the smaller and mid-size companies who can't afford dedicated visa teams like IBM and HP). Just how many IT jobs on Monster require a green card or citizenship.
While I don't doubt that the scheme is being exploited
one of the things you have to do when you sponsor someone is state how much you are going to pay them. While the state department makes some allowance for a company recouping the cost of the vias and relocation if the salary is significantly below the US norm for the position then the application will be rejected.
The greeater worry for the western world is not migratn workers and immigrants but the practice of outsourcing to other countries. While quality of work generally decreases (for a number of practical reasons) the cost savings are too attractive to big companies. My company lost one of it's biggest clients to an Indian firm: the client said to us (literally) "We love your work, we think you have the best people around and the projects you've done for us are the best the company has ever had. However charges a third of what you do so we are gogin to have to let you go". This led directly to 30 people being layed-off.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
I might add, Boeing is cutting almost ALL its IT and IS jobs as I type, offloading to India and Russia. They were honest and told us "We pay them 50% of the wages we pay you."
Don't worry, it'll come back to bite'em in the buttocks. Boeing's corporate set-up regarding interntional business transactions opens the company up to a lot of international tax liabilities, not to mention litigation.
Most international businesses set up entities in each country, so that if something goes wrong, the risk is limited to only that entity and can't come back to hit the deep pockets of the HQ in another country. Boeing doesn't operate that way. In fact, in a recent negotiation with them, their legal counsel came right out and told me that they conduct business in countries without applying for a business license. Yikes! I can understand sending an engineer down to a crash site to do consultive work, but they were talking about flat-out sales of goods to local-country companies without funneling through a local Boeing company to isolate liability. That's big-time risk, and centering its IT stuff overseas bears a tremendous amount of risk not just for commercial transactions, but for internal IT management. Boeing management is running scared, assuming excessive risk in order to cut costs. But hey, I'm not the one trying to represent them...
I guess its a good thing the US gov't offers some protection for them due to their relationship with the military.
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I am, as you succinctly put it, an H1-B foriegn Geek. I am going home this year. My visa goes until next May and my company is willing to sponsor me again if I wanted but I'd rather head back to the UK (don't get me wrong, I like the US, but it's note home to me). I also regualarly get offer from other campanies who are willing to sponsor me (and these offere aren't at cheap rate).
I get payed the same as my US colleagues and work the same hours. If I was treated worse than my colleagues I would have left. I think you underestimate the expense, work, complexity and time it takes to get a visa (I've done it twice now).
There has certainly been a vast plunge in the number of companies willing to do it (especially among the smaller and mid-size companies who can't afford dedicated visa teams like IBM and HP). Just how many IT jobs on Monster require a green card or citizenship.
While I don't doubt that the scheme is being exploited
one of the things you have to do when you sponsor someone is state how much you are going to pay them. While the state department makes some allowance for a company recouping the cost of the vias and relocation if the salary is significantly below the US norm for the position then the application will be rejected.
The greeater worry for the western world is not migratn workers and immigrants but the practice of outsourcing to other countries. While quality of work generally decreases (for a number of practical reasons) the cost savings are too attractive to big companies. My company lost one of it's biggest clients to an Indian firm: the client said to us (literally) "We love your work, we think you have the best people around and the projects you've done for us are the best the company has ever had. However charges a third of what you do so we are gogin to have to let you go". This led directly to 30 people being layed-off.
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true. jobs should be given to the ones skilled to do them, regardless of nation of origin.
however, if jobs are being give to others just to satisfy the politicions then screw it... as long as the playing field is equal and everyone has an equal chance, based on skills, I'm happy.
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we killed ourselves to keep my wife in school last year to get her ccna . she made strait "A" s passed ccna the first time. school hired here as a assistant in their it department. long story short.
she gave up applieing for jobs after 100 or so and not one even vage nibble nor one call she gave up. now shes doing data entry for the diddlyin post office.
tons of forigners have well paid i-t jobs ?
americans dont even get call backs.
dont try to sell me companys cant find qualified people its roadkill.
p.s. she would quit in a minute and move if she could get a job she quietly sends emails to this day still no interest at all.
send all the forigners home.
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And all descendants of Foriegners!!!
Ooops that would include most, if not all, of the people wanting to send those foriegners home!
12,708.
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Population explosion is over... here in Canada they want to increase immigration as well!!
not too thrilled about it meself..
SKurj
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well, here is a story of a canadian citizen - squadmate of mine from WB, whom i got a job in my company. They were willing to sponsor him for a H1B and gave him full fledged offer ( help desk job, as entry level as it gets )
The INS on the border ( where canadians ahve to get their H1B's stamped ) told him to pack his toejam and get the f..k out of the country. ( aka, denied, get out )
Ain't as easy as it sounds.
Rip, gonna join the union ? Or call your Democratic senator to protect your job ? :)
We love the free market theory as long as we're the ones pulling the dough in :)
Article is crap. Thinly veiled nationalism.
I interview people at my workplace for IT positions. it is hard to find qualified ones.
And certificates don't mean toejam those days. Heck, in normal companies, never did.
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my wifes worthless cirt (ccna) took 9 months of her studying 2 or 3 hours a night plus classes. why are these worthless?
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Its easy to be nice and understanding when everything is going your way. Its unfortunate to see what happens to people when things aren't going their way.
Foreigners aren't causing the problems we are seeing today. Foreigners didn't start up litterally 1000's of .com companys over the last 5 years and completely tap the IT market as a result. Foreigners didn't cause those .com companies to go bankrupt and turn loose tens of thousands of IT folks to flood the market with experienced certified personel.
Funny... none of the IT people were complaining about all the foreign co-workers when all were considered a commodoty and companies were paying top dollar to get anyone.
AKDejaVu
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good point.
being in IT myself, I know it's the glut of so many IT guys looking for work that makes finding and/or keeping jobs tougher. most are skilled with tons of experience and looking to fill fewer and fewer jobs.
not to mention the fact that schools and tech schools are pumping out more and more job seekers.
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No need for Canadians to go to the US to get Amercian IT jobs anymore. The US IT companies are sending the jobs here. Why pay an American $10 yankish, when you can pay a Canadian $10 canuckish.
It's not the foreigners fault, it's the US IT corporations.
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One of the problems is the protectionist US Economy. Its set up some false expectations within your market.
Two words, globlisation and commoditisation.
IT services are becoming more and more of commodities, and on the global market there are some cheap options.
However Rip, as with most cheap stuff there is lots of hidden costs, and that is cheap usually = low quality. The company I work for is a reasonable sized AsiaPac company, we use India for our software services and development, so I speak from experience.
Boeing will get bitten, they'll come back to US based IT, albeit looking for a slight sharper price than before but they'll come back.
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Well you either believe in globalisation or you don't. So which one is it Rip?
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Originally posted by fd ski
[B
Rip, gonna call the Union?
[/B]
First off, most union jobs are gone except final assembly at Boeing. Why? Because they cut they're own throat. Since I hired in, when I was in a Union job, I always said we were overpaid for what we did compared to the same job outside of Boeing. Well, the company has the right to offload any work they have, thats not part of the contract. Boeing and what it does with its work is ITS business, not the union. So what did they do? Offloaded over 50% of the manufacturing jobs (Union) to sub contractors.
All I can say to the Unions at this time is "I told you so".
I'm salary, so I don't have Union representation, even if I did, wouldn't make any difference.
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Originally posted by senna
U mean like IBM Global Services. They were one of the Original folks who ventured into this IT business and they did so aggressively. Deals would be made, entire IT groups would let go then they would be offered to go work for IBM Global Services as contractors at their current position. This was something I witnessed years ago at an older job. I suppose things are different now. The difference was the buck long term and the more scalable and dynamic resources possible with a larger entity.
I was on the other side of that business: I worked for IBM Global Services, working with the sales teams to make sure they weren't running afoul of the law (a job best described as "personality-altering"). The main impetus for outsourcing IT jobs is reduced cost, either through economies of scale or reducing payroll (i.e.: reducing the number of people doing the job or reducing the cost of keeping those people employed, such as making them contractors and not having to provide medical, dental, and retirement benefits, nor having to pay severence when the outsourcing contract expires). Essentially, your employer was selling you out. But you know what? IBM sold out its labor force a few years later. Now its just a shadow of its former glory, focusing on the content hosting business and laying people off as projects wind down and aren't renewed. Gerstner is retiring with full benefits and a fat check. The folks at the platoon level are scrambling to make ends meet.
Never underestimate the power of an MBA and office politics to get on the corporate path of success.
You have to remember that the main goal of a corporation is to earn money for its owners, whether stockholders or the officers or both, even if that means shafting its workers. Workers are a resource and possibility the largest expense for a company. If you work for a large corporation, be certain where your loyalties lie. Are you in a position to benefit from your company reducing its expenses? If you answer "no", then consider your job to be a revenue stream and get ready to run to another revenue stream when that creek runs dry.
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'true. jobs should be given to the ones skilled to do them, regardless of nation of origin.
however, if jobs are being give to others just to satisfy the politicions then screw it... as long as the playing field is equal and everyone has an equal chance, based on skills, I'm happy.'
I'm a free-marketeer myself, but in the case of H1Bs the market is not nearly free. U.S. IT workers have always had foreign competition in the form of offshore IT farms and H1B visas, so the issue is not competition itself. The issue is the natural ebb and flow of the U.S. marketplace. The number of H1B's issued each year is not dynamically linked to real market forces, but to pressure/lobbying on Congress. The decision to open the floodgates for H1B's was made during the .COM/Y2K bubble, and now that those bubbles have burst the market is totally screwed.
An H1B from India can work cheaper than any native American because he lives in a sort of economic space capsule. If he works here for $35,000 a year, he can easily save $10,000 a year. When he goes back home to India after 3 years with $30,000 saved up, he is rich by Indian standards.
The thing that bugs me the most is the fact that the IT recruiters who lobbied for the H1B increase make out like bandits when they sponsor these foreigners. I talked to one Filipino programmer who said his recruiter was paying him 38% of the hourly rate the customer was paying for him. I know there are other expenses involved, but the recruiter had to be making at least a 50% profit.
ra
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Originally posted by lord dolf vader
my wifes worthless cirt (ccna) took 9 months of her studying 2 or 3 hours a night plus classes. why are these worthless?
Let me see if I can explain this any good...
Back in the days... i'm talking 1990-1995 area, certifications like Novell CNA were truly a test of one's experiance and knowledge. Stuff you would have a really hard time learning from the book.
You HAD a job in industry, then you did your certs to prove what you knew.
As MCSE came into the scene, tests got easier and easier, less and less job specific, more theory based, which is good, if you have previous experiance. If you don't, well, that's a whole another story.
Then the certs industry grew, people figured they can make killing teaching you 5 day class as a "prep" for a cert, which will GUARANTEE you a job. And they did. Market was flooded with people who knew to reset the spooler when printer doesn't print, but had no idea what spooler is.
Same story repeated itself for Cisco certs, with few years slide.
3 years ago, cert didn't show experiance or knowledge, more of the "willingness to go the distance". it was enough then, in the market which would hire a 6 year olds for IT jobs if it could.
Today on the other hand, if you walk into the job with a cert and no experiance, well, you're just toejam out of luck.
Too bad for your wife. She was about 2 years late.
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Well.....speaking of ye ol' choppin block.....*looks left, looks right*.....Next week it gets used.....The axes are being sharpened as we speak.
Wish me luck fellas.
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Originally posted by AcId
Well.....speaking of ye ol' choppin block.....*looks left, looks right*.....Next week it gets used.....The axes are being sharpened as we speak.
Wish me luck fellas.
GL dude. I know what it's like to see that big layoff coming. sucks. I was unemployed for 2.5 months and just managed to get a job last week.
--
sancho