Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Pyro on July 13, 2000, 04:07:00 PM
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(http://www.hitechcreations.com/pyro/ostwind.jpg)
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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Sweet (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Is that an 88?
Nice looking, whatever it is. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Sweet it is (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ....nm, I know, 2 weeks...
I would think its a 40mm eh? Whirlwind next?
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As an F4u-1c driver, I honestly believe that vehicle is overmodeled.
AKDejaVU
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37mm
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Nathan "NATEDOG" Mathieu
Art Director
HiTech Creations
-=HELLFIRE SQUAD=-
".... And on the eighth day, God created beer. "
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Here's what I found off a quick net search. I don't make any claims to its acuracy.
There is also one interesting fact here related to a dubious AH squad. See if ya can pick it out - the sentence starts with "The interesting fact...." (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Wirbelwind and Ostwind were successors to the Flakpanzer IV Mobelwagen (armed with 37mm Flak 43 L/89) - "interim solution" produced before the introduction of real Flakpanzer. In July of 1944, prototype of Ostwind (Eastwind) - an air defense armored vehicle build on Panzer IV's proven chassis was produced.
Its design was very similar to that of Flakpanzer IV Wirbelwind (Whirlwind) which prototype was build in May of 1944 and was to become the first true Flakpanzer. Both vehicles were build on retired or battle damaged Panzer IV (mainly Ausf F/G) chassis/components returned from the front for major repairs.
The concept of Wirbelwind was that of Karl Wilhelm Krause, an officer of 12th SS Panzer Division "Hitler Jugend", who in summer of 1944, proposed to mount four barrelled 20mm Flak 38 L/112.5 gun on PzKpfw IV's chassis.
Wirbelwind and Ostwind were fitted with very similar (especially designed) open-top (Wirbelwind's turret had 9 side panels and Ostwind's had 6 side panels) turrets mounted in the place of standard turrets. Main difference was that Wirbelwind was armed with quadruple 20mm Flak 38 L/112.5 guns while Ostwind was armed with single 37mm Flak 43 L/89 gun (both could be used against ground targets as well). 20mm Flak proved to be less effective than 37mm Flak and was eventually replaced by it. Both were produced by Ostbau Works in Sagan, Silesia in limited numbers due to the material shortages and the fact that Ostbau Works moved to facilities of Deutsche Eisenwerke in Teplitz and Duisburg due to danger of being overrun by the Soviets.
Overall from May to November of 1944, only 87(105) Wirbelwinds were made, contrary to only 44(43) Ostwinds produced from July 1944 to March of 1945. Both vehicles were issued to Flugabwehrzug (AA platoons) units of Panzer Divisions. There were never enough of them to equip frontline units, which were in the need for adequate mobile AA defense. Both proved to be very effective against low flying aircraft.
The interesting fact is that prototype Ostwind was combat tested by 1st Waffen SS Panzer Division "Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler" during the Ardennes Offensive (December 16 to 22 of 1944) and returned to factory undamaged.
There also plans to increase the firepower of both Wirbelwind and Ostwind.
In late 1944, it was planned to rearm existing Wirbelwinds with four 30mm MK103/28 or MK103/38 guns, capable of firing 1600 rounds per minute. In December of 1944, Ostbau produced only one prototype designated Zerstorer 45 (Destroyer 45). Same concept was incorporated into rearming of the Ostwind with two 37mm Flak 43 or Flak 44 guns or 30mm Mauser MK103 cannon.
In January of 1945, Ostbau was able to produce one prototype designated Ostwind II, while 100 were ordered. In 1945, it was decided to utilize obsolete at the time PzKpfw III and mount it with Wirbelwind or Ostwind turrets, designated as Flakpanzer III. 90 were ordered but the end of the war terminated the production. Eventually, all of Flakpanzers were to be replaced by newly designed Flakpanzer IV Kugelblitz in the early 1945.
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(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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Oh my.....
The possibilities are damn near endless here.
Yeager
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(http://www.geocities.com/tas13th/sqsig/yeager.gif)
[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 07-13-2000).]
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Wanna bet no base capture will happen until the Vhangar is dead? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Exterminate! Exterminate!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
'Nexx'
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Wonder what the rate of fire, and ammo load out is?? Time to surf!
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37mm. If it is fast enough it will be the best tank/field/planes killer around (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Fariz
"Never forget about Balance, Luke! Err, sorry, wrong script".
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pingpingpingcrack !
That's what I'll hear a lot soon.....
Saw
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I do believe I have died & gone to heaven!
YES! I want one & it better carry tons of ammo!
Wonder how it will do against panzers front armor????
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COOL!!!!!!!
Cant wait.
Keep up the great work.
(In the distance a sad voice is heard to mumble, "just wait, v3.0 is coming, yeah, it's coming" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ) (maybe, but we got new stuff all the time in AH)
Dago
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Wah! Wah! Wah! Wah!
It's deliberately undermodeled! It's an American biased plot!!
Just wanted to bet the first!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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"Kill them Before they Grow"
Lizking
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Slow rate of fire and a boatload of ammo. The open turret is vulnerable to strafing for anybody who wants to risk it.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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Whats the effective vertical range on that pyro?
Just how far up will we be able to reach out & touch a B17?????
Slow rate of fire, slower than panzer main gun? Or slower than 20mm?
ohh and ehmmmm 2 weeks? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Maj Ghosth
XO 332nd Flying Mongrels
(http://www.corpcomm.net/~billj69/ricochet.jpg)
[This message has been edited by Ghosth (edited 07-14-2000).]
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think you'd need this thing to touch a B17 Ghosth
I don't even wanna know its rate of fire, but surely does have some punch
(http://www.achtungpanzer.com/gr10_5.jpg)
this thing would be neat (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) twin 30mm "Doppelflak", 1200 rounds. Its been in prototype stage though
(http://www.achtungpanzer.com/kugel.jpg)
Redwing
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Nexx stole my joke! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Dear god that thing is ugly (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) Think I've seen it before in Total Annihilation though...
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Pyro/Nate:
Any chance you can model the proximity type fuse, where the HE will detonate at a given alt for maximum efficiency? You know, burst of shrapnel, inflicting damage on A/C?
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So then it won't fire flak as an option, is my guess. Making a direct hit on a plane wont be easy, unless they buzz you.
XX
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Originally posted by dosequis:
So then it won't fire flak as an option, is my guess. Making a direct hit on a plane wont be easy, unless they buzz you.
XX
Yep, that's exactly what I was thinking when I made my proximity fuse post. Worthless and vulnerable to strafing attacks. <Rip closes the hatch cover on his Mark IV and latches it>
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Geez, this thing is going to be a killer for base defense. This thing with a 37mm is going to be able to shoot further than D1.5 and a hit is going to be fairly fatal. I couldn't imagine trying to approach a field if there are a couple of these things driving around. They'd be blasting away at you from way outside your range to do anything back to them. And if they were smart, they'd wait until you got to D1.5 before they opened fire... poof, you're dead.
Soda
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I'm wondering what role the M16 will play now. Perhaps this Ostwind is so slow that yer only gonna want to use it for base defence, while using the M16 for offensive support?
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The only reference I could find:
The 3.7-cm (37 mm) Model 36 and Model 37 antiaircraft gun ("Westerwald") was developed in 1938 by Rheinmetall from the precursor 3.7-cm (37 mm) Model 18 as a recoil-loader with sliding barrel and central bolt action. The barrel was 2,112.2 mm (7 ft.) long; the theoretical rate of fire was 160 shots per minute and the effective rate 80. Depending on the type of cartridge used, the muzzle velocity was 770-820 meters per second (847-902 yd./sec.). The maximum range was 6,600 meters (7,260 yd.), and the maximum ceiling 4,800 meters (5,280 yd.). The ammunition was in 6-round clips. The weapon's carriage stood on a triangular base.
Weighing 1,544 kg (3,397 lb.), the gun could be moved on the Model 52 trailer. The Model 37 was differentiated from its precursors
by its aiming sight. The 3.7-cm gun could also be installed on vehicles and buildings. After 1944 it saw action with the
self-propelled antiaircraft weapon "Ostwind," on the chassis of the Panzer IV.
popeye
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B/W pic of the real thing, info: http://www.achtungpanzer.com/flak4.htm#ostwind (http://www.achtungpanzer.com/flak4.htm#ostwind)
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Ripsnort(-rip1-)
VMF-323 ~Death Rattlers~
Panzer Group Afrika~15th Panzer Division~[/i]
Click here for VMF-323 Death Rattlers info (http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/vmf323inquirer.html)
Click here for 15th Panzer info (http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/panzerinquirer.html)
(http://ripsnort60.tripod.com/ripsnort323.gif)
I spare no class or cult or creed,
My course is endless through the year.
I bow all heads and break all hearts,
All owe homage-I am Fear.
-------------General Patton
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I have the following data for the 3,7cm Flak 36:
Barrel lenght: 3626mm
Muzzle velocity (HE): 820m/s
Muzzle velocity (AP): 770m/s
Max. range: 6500m
Max. ceiling: 4800m
ROF (theoretically): 160rpm
ROF (practically): 120 rpm
(source: Heinz J. Nowarra, Die deutsche Luftrüstung 1933-1945)
Az
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I believe the electronic proximity fuse on air-air munitions was solely an Allied (U.S.) advantage.
Not aware of the Axis or Germany having anything as lethal and refined. It saved the tulips of many a sailor in the Pacific war and also off the beach heads in the Italian theatre from what I'd read.
-Westy
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Well, I'm no ammo expert, they did have something that allowed it to go off at a certain height...so maybe I'm thinking altitude fuse, dunno. My point is, if you have to hit something directly with this gun, its worthless for AAA role.
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Hmmm effective alt 5k (BTW Thanks NATE!)
coupled with 80 rounds per minute.(per data above) AWESOME!
I'm not sure if it will be more effective anti air with flak rounds or not.
True, if you had proximity rounds then you could easily put a hail of shrapnel in front of a diveing Aircraft.
However I believe (could easily be wrong here, Funked? Anyone?) that most Flak used by the germans was altitude fused. If so then I'd rather take my chance of hitting a plane directly.
How long does it take to dive from 5k?
With 4 of those 37MM screaming up at you every 3 seconds it's going to take nerves of steel to attack field targets.
I think either way that it's a given that life just got tougher for the P47 jocks!
As to what it will do to Panzers, field targets or sitting 4k from a field ranged in on the map room waiting for troops. Well, I can't wait to find out for myself (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I'd say wait and see, Rip. It might not be so worthless. Heck, Panzers are shooting fighters down with the main gun. It sure will keep the bombers above 15k. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
With the new ack settings allowing effective jabo, I think the Ostwind will be a good addition to the game. It will allow players to augment the ack, AND give jabo fighters a new target. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
popeye
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Im curious as to whether they had prox fuses or not. That would be awesome if it did.
Nothing question, if it could be altitude set, would it still detonate on contact?
If this has any kind of fuse settings, weeeeeeeeeee!
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Dnil
Maj. 900th Bloody Jaguars
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer (http://www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer)
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I only have one thing to say:
We need a tank that is not german for historical tank vs tank, yeah, I know , this is a flight sim, but hey! Tanks are a nice diversion, to drive, and to kill!
T34 !
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Not proximity fuzes, but they did alt fuzes. A proximity fuze requires the projectile be able to emit a electronic pulse such as an active or passive radar (not unlike AIM-7 air AIM-120 missiles).
However an altitude fuze detonates at whatever altitude it was designed to. You guys have seen all that old combat film right? All those flak burst in the air?
(http://ww2.esn.net/~saved4sure/AMMO.jpg)
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The gun is a Flak 43. It uses the same ammo as the Flak 36 but has a higher rate of fire, 150 - 250 round per minute. The Germans did not have proximity fuses and fuze setters were used on 88mm and larger AA weapons. The 37mm AA used a simple impact fuze. I guess they didn't have any experts around back then to tell them it was impossible to hit at long range and that it would be totally bogus if they ever managed it.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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-ammo- , sorry to be nitpicking, but as far as I know there were no 'alt' fuses. What was used were 'timer' fuses - and even those were used only on 75mm, 76mm, 88mm and larger calibres. Smaller calibres were impact fuses.
And Pyro, nice comment! It must be impossible to hit a plane from 1000m, 2000m 3000m range - can't be done, so ack must be wrong in AH... I wonder why every army in WWII shot millions of shells in the air and brought down tens of thousands of planes. Maybe they knew something we dont :-)
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"higher rate of fire, 150 - 250 round per minute."
Yipe!!
When....er....nevermind. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
popeye
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On the Flak 18:
"A highly sensitive fuze was used on the high-explosive projectile. During one test at a range of 5000 yards it was fired against a metal wing of an airplane. The projectile, upon entering, made a very small hole and then detonated, tearing out a section of the wing over 8 feet square."
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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An 8 foot square hole....
Nice rate of fire and a longer range....
MUST try this out on MOSS or any other Bishies.
"Incoming fire has the Right of Way."
Missile
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I *really* don't want to get hit by that.
Oh. btw, why does it have that awful desert camo.. wouldnt something like spring or summer be better (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Exposed crew... YUMMY
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This is a nice direction for AH to go. These models will be used later on for the train and bridge defence/assult. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) I hope. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Well the way I see it there is only one answer left that I really would like to know about the "Ostwind"
WHEN! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Whoo Hooo!
This cannon will take it's toll with the new icon settings. I have a 37mm aa shell and it's evil looking. A 1 shot stopper. Go Pyro go.
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Was defending A19 alone this morning in an M-16, as it was attacked by two B-17's and a B-26. After they bombed everything in sight they dropped down to strafe me, as their C-47 circled out of range. Took them a few passes to kill me, and was able do some damage before I died.
I imagine it would have been a different story with the Ostwind. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Bring it on!
popeye
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
I only have one thing to say:
We need a tank that is not german for historical tank vs tank, yeah, I know , this is a flight sim, but hey! Tanks are a nice diversion, to drive, and to kill!
T34 !
Hmm yes a T-34/76 and a M4A3E2-76 ta go please (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Jig
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Originally posted by Jigster:
Hmm yes a T-34/76 and a M4A3E2-76 ta go please (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Yes. I agree. Those two tanks would go very nicely with the current Panzer IV. Later the Panther V, T-34/85 and Firefly could be added, but the two tanks Jigster mentioned should be next.
Sisu
-Karnak
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Originally posted by Luckyone:
This is a nice direction for AH to go. These models will be used later on for the train and bridge defence/assult. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) I hope. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
GOD, we could only hope for more strat! Hope they do this....
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So I assume that 1 shot kills can be expected?
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Rendar
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I wonder if HTC is considering Arty now that we have 37mm?
Right now, shells vanish after they reach max range, I wonder what it would take to make them fall, at least for shell sizes at 75mm and above.
I dream of using the AH world to pull up in a Priest and start the 105mm Howitzer humming, using some actual spotters to get on target.
XX
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Originally posted by dosequis:
Right now, shells vanish after they reach max range, I wonder what it would take to make them fall, at least for shell sizes at 75mm and above.
75mm shells doesn't vanish, those are the only ones that does not..
I have shot at times pretty high angle shots with 75mm just to find out more accurate distance, by watching its tracer and location of explosion.
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I wonder if it'll fire in 6-shell bursts. I remember seeing war-time footage of a 40mm AA gun - Oerlikon (SP?)? - and it was fed manually with 5-6 shell clips...
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-lynx-
13 Sqn RAF
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Saintaw... u forgot my copywrights on the 'Pingpingpingcrack'...A G A I N!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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I'm with lynx on the 5/6 round burst thing. They fed em in in clips. (Gravity fed) so it should go.
Bang, Bang, Bang, Bang, Bang, Bang, pause for two or three seconds and then Bang...
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(http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1/dtahcard.gif)
"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!
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Shells can continue on for as long as we want. The 75mm on the Panzer can be fired to it's maximum range. We set these lifetimes according to the weapon type. There's no point in tracking a .30 cal round for over a mile as that would be inefficient, especially considering the large amount of rounds you could put in the air and the fact that they really wouldn't do anything if you did manage to hit. For larger caliber weapons, that's a different story.
The Ostwind didn't use box magazines like on the 20mm Flak 38. They used strip clips that could be linked into one another and fed serially into the weapon. For example, the Ju 87G mounted Flak 18's which used 6 round clips but two of these clips were held in the magazine to give each weapon an ammunition capacity of 12. On the Flak 43, 8 round clips were used with an open feedtray(not gravity fed btw) that held two of these clips. The ammo loader just had to keep piling these clips onto the feedtray as the weapon was fired. He didn't have to wait for all the ammunition to exhaust before more could be loaded. Because of the space limitations in the turret of the Ostwind, I suspect that the feedtray could only handle 1 clip at a time for the Flak 43 instead of two but I haven't been able to verify this suspicion.
As to whether we'll ever model reloads on weapons that make use of multiple magazines or belts, I don't know. It's kind of a tedious thing to model and filled with special cases of every type so I don't know that it will ever be worth putting the effort into it considering the minimal gain. It might be something we revisit later when all the major stuff is finished.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations