Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: bj229r on July 26, 2002, 10:10:49 PM
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Well ive tried some 40 buff missions throughout the month, most all 15k and above (it is unreasonable to egg below that alt) I can usually hit a town, or kill various small items on a field..trying to
kill a hangar typically means i put a ####load of concentrated eggs in the ground NEAR said hangar. Vast majority of guys who say new buff thing is great are fiter pilots who neednt wory about buffs hurtin their fields anymore. 2 guys from my squad quit the 2nd day after the new model came out-- writing is on wall that there will be no more pure buff drivers, and they want nothing to do with it--there is no way a buff pilot can make a difference in the game now, (thought it IS an interesting challenge.) Im not gonna fly buffs anymore..its not an effective use of the little time i get to play this game. I have ALSO noticed that buffs blow up easier, and 50 cal lethality against fiters has dropped heaps. (dont say it is because the other 2 guns are firing also, if the guy makes a side attack, the other 2 buffs are out of the picture.) AND, mebbe 3 missions of 5..my drones poof somewhere along the way. If ya wanna kill a base..dont use buffs or tanks...Does ANYONE SEE SOMETHING WRONG with that statement?
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first tanks, now buffs become useless:(
althought i did just have a nice tank battle in h2h...........on one of my maps of course:)
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there is no way a buff pilot can make a difference in the game now
That's not true; just this evening I was up from 52 to 44 online at about 13,500' -- just under the wind layer -- with a trio of B-26s, having to shoot an annoying P-38 pilot off my tail before I made my IP turn, then calibrating and making my bomb run; I got my first three pairs of bombs out before the 190 that had come up from 44 to get me shot off my left wing, and I was able to pickle my last pair of eggs before I bailed to the second plane and shot the 190 pilot down.
As I jumped back into the pilot position to turn for egress back to a friendly field, I saw that I'd taken out the fuel tank and ack emplacement I was dropping at and an ammo bunker I wasn't sure I would get... and then my port engine died. I had a Spit and a P-38 chasing me out; I took a couple shots at the P-38 and got hit sprites, then turned a little port to clear a shooting angle as he dropped below me, but saw that he'd fallen back and the Spit had come up. I gave the Spit some rounds from the left-side gun position, then jumped to the tail position as he swung up behind me and went down to my tail guns, but I didn't get him fast enough to avoid losing my other drone and my right engine.
The P-38 had been engaged by a countrymate and had fallen out of con range, so I put my nose down and looked for a field, finally deadsticking into 45, netting 6.41 perk points and three kills for the run. In retrospect, I should have gone higher before the IP turn, maybe to 18,000' or 19,000', but I accomplished what I was after, and for a mid-level buff run against an enemy airfield with eight hostiles up at the field, being able to drop with all three buffs and get a plane home with only a tiny amount of escort assistance is a satisfying accomplishment.
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It is true Shiva...
If 1 in 20 buff runs has any impact on gameplay its too small a sample. if 10 in 100.. same..., hell 20 in 100 still the same..
Ya got an ack and 2 targets which take a single 250lb egg(ea) to kill. The biggest impact you had on the game was the coupla fighters you shot down..
BenDover... tanks are quite useful and have an impact depending on the map. Much more so than buffs. Granted an osty is more powerful, but the two working together can do alotta damage +)
SKurj
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something does need to be done about osties
Kills:
buildings
tanks
planes
troops
In fact, remove all the other vehicles, save space!
Add some flotation devices, and a little wagon with 10 troops towed on the back, and thats all you need
Who's with me?!
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Ya got an ack and 2 targets which take a single 250lb egg(ea) to kill. The biggest impact you had on the game was the coupla fighters you shot down..
I had been planning on hitting the FHs, but when someone asked for someone to pork 44, I changed targets to ones that would have more effect on planes taking off at the field, since there are 3 FHs at a small field and I could only get two of them.
The buff run didn't actually have pounding the field as a primary goal; I've been testing something I've discovered about the sight calibration procedure, and it appears that what I discovered works quite well in practice; my calibration accuracy has taken a major jump.
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Thats all well and good Shiva...BUT..if ya cant kill hangars at an airbase, then buffs are useless, other than a way to get some points via egging cities, depots, large bases, etc. I dont mind having to line up a sector out, not bein able to make last second course changes, etc..but if i do ALL THAT at 15k or so..150 mph..no wind..and cant kill ONE FREAKIN FH with 36 eggs...then why fly a buff?
anxious
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that is BS, if you lack the skill to hit targets don't blame the game, i'm a mediocre pilot and i knocked down two FH on one pass with a flight of B-17's , you just have to know how to do it.
44MAG
mediocre pilot
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ok...what was your alt?
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Since the new bombing procedure came out Ive done nothing but bomb, in fact I cant get enough of it, which is why I formed my new squadron. I have to think a LOT about my bombing now,which is why Im addicted to it now,before I hated being able to kill any target at all from 25k+. My bombing accuracy is probably running at 85% able to hit that target dead on,and improving all the time with practice.
However,I would like to address a couple of things I wouldnt mind improving.
1) Bombers toughened up.They DO seem to take damage far easily.
2)The guns dont seem to be as lethal as they were.
3)Bomber damage,if one of your drones take damage,Ive noticed that your remaining plane suffers the same damage,bombers should be treated as individual a/c ,damage should not be shared amongst them.
4) A .spread command to space out your a/c on a bomb run.
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1) Bombers toughened up.They DO seem to take damage far easily.
true. I have a feeling like hitting one bomber damage the others too. I've dived from high 12 on B17 formation and fired only at the leader. 2 bombers went down imediatly and the 3rd one started to smoke a few seconds later (the screen frose :mad: )
2)The guns dont seem to be as lethal as they were.
that is 'cos now guns dont fire through the plane. so in a simple dead 6 attack you have only the rear gunner firing, and maybe the belly ball too if he's lower. the top turret cant fire through the tail no more.
add to that that having 3 bomber don't mean much since they converge at about d1.0. and at d300 you efectivly have only 1 gunner hitting the bandit.
as for not doing damage. try taking a lanc formation and droping 42000lbs on a field. I've killed 3 fuel, barracks, radar, ack gun, and a FH (and another FH damaged). and this is on a small field.
this is not making a difference?! the field was down to 25% fuel (the last tank was destroyed earlier) had no dar, had less acks, and 1.5 FH left.
I didn't like the single lanc shutting down a field in the previous versions.
Bozon
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bombers should have little to 0 impact of fighters. They are strategical weapons and should be used to effect things other then fighter hangers. For some reason the strat in the past few maps has been undamageable. Thats a different problem.
Bombers can still kill the twns in the support of field capture. I dont know who told you it was the roll of a minority in community (bomber pilots) to stop the majorioty (fighter pilots) from having fun.
WTG Ht on new bomber model. Btw I have seen bombers kill fighter hangers. If you cant that just meansd you need more practice. Bombing is a skill now learn it or move on.
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Thats the thing Wotan...ANYthing can kill gas, ammo--110, mossies, tiffs do that VERY well...towns as well, and they take 1/10th the time to get there..the ONE ability buffs WOULD have in the present config of AH is being able to kill hangars (DID mange to kill a FH this am..wind was at 14k..went in at 13k, though on abusy night ya just dont get in at 13k) Strats, etc--theres no reason to kill em with buffs...if someone wants to, more power to em..but at present its not an effective use of manpower. And I agree that buffs are WAY easier to kill..bullets FROM buffs are less lethal...and it is rare that guns from 2 or more buffs can be brought to bear on a con
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jabos were always better at destroying field objects. They are now and were before 1.10.
thats what jabos were designed for. They target specific things. Bombers "area" bomb. Thats what they are for.
jabos in ah always killed airfields better then buffs. I have been here since tour 3. 190a8s, dhogs/chogs, p38 were the jabo kings. Then the typh jug, f6f. Now we have a huge selection of attack planes.
argue for more "area" targets for bombers to hit. Argue for a better strat system. But dont try to tell me the only way bombers can be usefull is by stopping the fighters.
You can still "area" bomb a town. Once the strat bugs are worked out you can hit them again.
Or maybe if you ask the guys that are actually hitting stuff how they do it and practicing you might be able to as well.
Bombers in ah were by far the "dweebiest" part of ah. HT did a good job to remedy that.
I agree bombers seem very fragile. Argue that.
Leave the fhs alone. :)
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Originally posted by john9001
that is BS, if you lack the skill to hit targets don't blame the game, i'm a mediocre pilot and i knocked down two FH on one pass with a flight of B-17's , you just have to know how to do it.
44MAG
mediocre pilot
Well something is strange here. I could bomb fine in 1.10 but since the patch I cant bomb at all. Its not skill, I could hit individual acks with 100 pounders.. Now I cant hit within 300 yards of a hanger....
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"Bombers can still kill the twns in the support of field capture. I dont know who told you it was the roll of a minority in community (bomber pilots) to stop the majorioty (fighter pilots) from having fun.
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what a pile of crap. what are you on.
that is like saying that its wrong for fighters to shoot down bombers..what a joke.
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BS bongo
read a book
Bombers never were used to kill individaul structures in rl so why make gameplay concesions now.
Theres other targets more suited for the type of bomber model we have now. Maybe theses "areas" should be bigger and more dense with structures but ending a good fight because 2 structures are hit is bs.
HT decided to make his bomber model tougher.
Theres all kinds of room for improvement but allowing for fhs or fuel or any structure to be sniped off with laser accuracy is stretching it a bit even for gameplay.
I dont even fly bombers and I have killed 3/4 in a ju88 with just 20 x 50kg. Thats the type of roll bombers have. Area bombing. Instead of whining about what ya cant hit go bomb what ya can.
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You CAN hit more or less anything you set out to in a bomber now,all it takes is PRACTICE!!!!,when this new version came out I couldnt hit a barn door,nothing!!! in fact I made a post or two somehwere here about how much I hated it,BUT! I stuck with it,you learn little 'tricks',best way to approach a target,best speed to run up to a target,best delay for a decent bomb pattern,best salvo to use in specific a/c,and now with bombers being less tough,best evasive maneuvers to put fighters off,(love corckscrewing my Lanc now ),stick with it,bombing IS an art now,and very,very satisfying once you get it down :)
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Thats all well and good Shiva...BUT..if ya cant kill hangars at an airbase, then buffs are useless, other than a way to get some points via egging cities, depots, large bases, etc. I dont mind having to line up a sector out, not bein able to make last second course changes, etc..but if i do ALL THAT at 15k or so..150 mph..no wind..and cant kill ONE FREAKIN FH with 36 eggs...then why fly a buff?
Back before the reset, when we were on the Mindanao map, I made two separate bombing runs with B-26 formations, on Field 33 and field 41 (I think that's the right number; southeast corner at the tip of the peninsula south of Port 39); both times I was dropping from 16K or better, up in the wind layer, and both times I took out two hangars -- one FH and one BH -- dropping 500-lb bombs. If you can't do it with a full load of 1,000-lb bombs in a B-17 formation, then you're doing something wrong.
My latest mistake is not checking my ordnance loadout, getting to target, and dropping these four 500-lb bombs on this target, and these four 500-lb bombs on... no drop sound... and watching the twelve 1,000-lb bombs grossly overkill my first target...
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"Bombers never were used to kill individaul structures in rl so why make gameplay concesions now.
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Assuming your just un educated and not a total BSer
Lancs level droped a single bomb onto a single ship and hit it.
is that a point target or what larry..
If that kind of accuracy is possible then it should be in the game right.
So what are you talking about? did the RAF dive bomb tall boys into the Tirpitz? Or those UBoat pens? or are those not structures?
Countless other strikes during the war probebly involved trying to hit individual buildings or targets from level bombers with varying results. Not every bomber raid in the war was a 1000 bomber USAF daylight carpet bombing raid.
Cry about people killing your hangers if you like.
A good bomber should be able to hit it at will from 10k with no opposition. And if you dont like that provide some opposition.
Hitting acks is silly but hitting hangers is not..
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mebbe answer is to make strat targets at bases harder to kill via strafing---a 110 can strafe all strat targets at a small base in nothin flat ....but it takes 4 75 mm HE shells from a panzer to kill 1 55 gallon gas drum, or a well-placed 250 lb. egg from a buff (latter is less likely now, other than carpet bombing pass). THAT would make the more realistic carpet bombing approach worth while. (OK..I agree, it IS more realistic). Failing that, make hitting actual strat targets have some assignable value that shows nmy ability degraded somehow...such that the buff driver knows he (or she) has done something varifiably contribute to the war effort, and not just getting points.
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Shiva.
thanks for the confirmation that bombing still works for someone like it did for me in 1.10
I either have to relearn how to calibrate or there HT broke bombing for me when he fixed it for every one else.
I suspect the latter.
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1 bomber didnt sink the tirpitz.....
They flow numerous sorties to sink her
The Tirpitz, second and last battleship of the Bismarck class, was the largest warship built in Germany. She was commissioned on February 1941, and afterwards went to the Baltic to conduct sea trials. At the beginning of 1942, she was sent to Norway in order to repel a possible allied invasion, and to attack the Russia-bound Arctic convoys. As part of the "Fleet in being", her mere presence forced the Allies to maintain a considerable force in Scapa Flow that could be otherwise employed in other theatres of operations. In July 1942, she was indirectly responsible for the destruction of convoy PQ-17 without firing a single shot. In September 1943, while anchored in Altenfiord, she was attacked by British midget submarines and put out of action for the first time. Later submitted to continuous aerial bombings, the Tirpitz was finally sunk on 12 november 1944 after being hit by 5.4-ton "Tallboy" bombs.
03 April 1944: At 0528, Tirpitz is attacked by 40 bombers from the carriers Victorious, Furious, Emperor, Searcher, Fencer, and Pursuer. She is hit by 10 bombs of 225 kg and 4 of 775 kg. 132 dead and 316 wounded. At 0636 there is a second wave with no success.
After being refitted she went to sea again.
01 July 1944: Ready to begin her trials again.
31 July-1 August 1944: Conducts her last trials with the destroyers Z-29, Z-31, Z-33, Z-34, and Z-39.
22 August 1944: Attacked by 32 Barracudas from carriers Indefatigable, Furious, Formidable, Nabob, and Trumpeter with no success.
24 August 1944: Attacked by 33 Barracudas from carriers Indefatigable, Furious, and Formidable. Two hits. 8 dead and 13 wounded.
29 August 1944: Attacked by 26 Barracudas, with no success.
15 September 1944: Attacked by 27 Lancasters from Yagodnik near Archangel. Tirpitz is hit on the forecastle by a 5.4-ton "Tallboy" bomb. The damage is severe and the battleship is no longer seaworthy.
15 October 1944: After temporary repairs in the bow, the Tirpitz sails at 8 knots to Tromsö fiord and anchors off Haaköy Island to remain there as a floating battery.
29 October 1944: Attacked by 32 Lancasters of the 617th Dam Buster Squadron without success.
12 November 1944: Attacked by 32 Lancasters. Shortly after 0940, the Tirpitz is hit by two "Tallboy" bombs on the port side amidships. Four other bombs near-miss the battleship. At 0952 the ship capsizes at 69º 36' north, 18º 59' east. 971 dead.
Hardly sniped off by 1 bomber/ or 3..........
it may have taken 1 bomb to finish her but not just 1 bomber / or 3. Why dont read up on bombers.
The submarines pens as well were hit over and over. No 1 bomber sniped off the tirpitz or any structure while bombing from alt.
Do I need to fill a post up demonstrating that, or will you conceed now that you haven't got a clue....
I can fly 1 lanc 50 times over an airfield and drop without using the site and could kill a hanger atleast once if not more.
Your weak arguement is laughable........moron......
Count the number of bomber sorties to kill that dead in the water ship.............:rolleyes:
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Assuming your just un educated and not a total BSer
Lancs level droped a single bomb onto a single ship and hit it.
is that a point target or what larry..
If that kind of accuracy is possible then it should be in the game right.
During the summer of 1944, 47 B-29s raided the Yawata steel works from bases in China; only one plane actually hit the target area, and with only one of its bombs. This single 500 lb general purpose bomb (which hit a powerhouse located 3,700ft from the far more important coke houses that constituted the raid’s aiming point) represented one quarter of one per cent of the 376 bombs dropped over Yawata on that mission.
In the fall of 1944, only seven per cent of all bombs dropped by the Eighth Air Force hit within 1,000ft of their aim point; even a fighter-bomber in a 40 degree dive releasing a bomb at 7,000ft could have a circular error (CEP) of as much as 1,000ft. It took 108 B-17 bombers, crewed by 1,080 airmen, dropping 648 bombs to guarantee a 96 per cent chance of getting just two hits inside a 400 by 500ft German power-generation plant.
In one of my posts in this thread (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=59628#post548413), I have a table showing the accuracy percentages -- what percentage of bombs landed within 1,000' and 2,000' of target from January '43 through April '45... and it's depressing. Starting at 18% within 1,000', 31% within 2,000', by war's end, the 8th Air Force could expect to get no more than 58% of their bombs within 1,000' of their target -- on visual missions under conditions of good to fair visibility. Under poorer conditions, the accuracy was worse.
This compares pretty favorably to what we've seen for people squeaking about the new bombing.
that is BS, if you lack the skill to hit targets don't blame the game, i'm a mediocre pilot and i knocked down two FH on one pass with a flight of B-17's , you just have to know how to do it.
Try it in B-26's; it's a much better challenge, since you don't have as much excess ordnance to drop on the target to compensate for mediocre aim. And for some reason the B-26 drone pilots seem to be smarter than either the B-17 or Lancaster drone pilots; they follow you better.
thanks for the confirmation that bombing still works for someone like it did for me in 1.10
I either have to relearn how to calibrate or there HT broke bombing for me when he fixed it for every one else.
It's the calibration process; once you learn how to make it work for you, then your accuracy will go way up. My accuracy for the first two weeks of 1.10 was below 35%, but even with the nuke that that gives to my average, my accuracy is up to about 80% now. Next tour, when I can start understanding the bombsight, I should do even better.
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I certainly agree shiva,
Thats why I think the arguement should be for more targets, large area targets and more dense targets.
The question then becomes how should bombers impact the main overall.
I made a suggestion in another thread as to what I would "wish" for. Karnak has made a suggestion as well.
The days of laser directed bombs are over. WTG ht...........
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B29's make for bad example--they were an utter failure at precision bombing, which is what the tech weenies designed them, and their new engines for---the fire bomb raids were just a way to get SOME use out of the things
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Wotan
"15 September 1944: Attacked by 27 Lancasters from Yagodnik near Archangel. Tirpitz is hit on the forecastle by a 5.4-ton "Tallboy" bomb. The damage is severe and the battleship is no longer seaworthy.
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The tallboy was a single bomb droped with precision by a single plane. your own quote defeats your argument. It was not carpet bombed it was level bombed at a precise target from an individual plane using the level bombing sight from altitude.
That it took many planes to be successfull is irrelivent. Just like the 1/2 % accuracy of the typical ww2 fighter pilot is irrelivent. should we restrict all fighter pilots in AH to 200 yeard shots and 1/2 % accuracy because that was typical of the war?
"quote:
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03 April 1944: At 0528, Tirpitz is attacked by 40 bombers from the carriers Victorious, Furious, Emperor, Searcher, Fencer, and Pursuer. She is hit by 10 bombs of 225 kg and 4 of 775 kg. 132 dead and 316 wounded. At 0636 there is a second wave with no success. "
We should limit the dive bomber and torpedo capablilities in the game to this level as well I suppose.. what is that...80 aircraft to no effect against a single probably moored battleship.
Your own text shows the sillyness of your argument.....
Level bombers were used for precision strikes. sorry you dont like that.
If you are going to limit the level bombers to the effectiveness of the crews that flew them in war with the level of opposition that they had to face then you must do the same to the other unit types in the game..
Sorry you just cant accept that the bombers are still broken in the latest patch...
Get them back to the way they were in 1.10 and I will love them again...
If level bombers are allowed to loiter over a field and bomb with impunity they will destroy the field. If fighters are allowed to strafe the ack down with impunity they will render the field useless. If ostwinds are allowed to approach a field unapposed they will render it defensless.
no different. If you dont want to defend your fields they will be destroyed. None of it is historic, this is a game.
You seem to think your cool cause you dont fly bombers...
reality check.
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We should limit the dive bomber and torpedo capablilities in the game to this level as well I suppose.. what is that...80 aircraft to no effect against a single probably moored battleship.
Contrast that against the flight of 8 Ju-87 Stukas where the single 1,000-kg bomb dropped by the flight leader, Hans-Ulrich Rudel, struck the magazine of the Russian battleship Marat and sank him. Or his solo attack against the Russian battleship Octyabrskaya Revolutsiya as he lay in port, the ship being described by the Russians as "slightly damaged and later raised".
(For people unfamiliar with the terminology, 'raising' a ship means refloating it after it has sunk to the bottom; the 'October Revolution' was sunk in shallow enough water that it could be repaired and refloated)
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just figure the averages 27 lancs dropping 27 tail boys on a vessel moving at a lowly 8 knots 1 was bound to hit.
If any 1 bomber could of hit and sunk it they would have sent just 1. The fact is it Bombers sortied enmass over and over until a few of the bombs were lucky enough to hit the mark.
As I said it took 1 (actually a few) bombs to sink the tirpitz but it took numerous sorties. why because all the other guys missed.
Thats the reason there were mass formations sortied at 1 target area. As Shiva has pointed out Early in the war , atleast for the 8th force, they landed at 18% of their ord within 1,000', 31% within 2,000'. Anyone one bomb load had it hit with laser accurracy would have devastated the target area. The fact is even with the current ah model bombing is still easier and less complicated then real life.
My point about bombers not targeting individual structures was meant to point out no 1 bomber in ww2 would be able to snipe off fhs any where near the accurracy that we can in ah.
Anyone 1 bomb, provided it was large enough, can and should kill any structure. This doesnt mean that getting bombs on target should be easy. It wasnt.
I talked with a guy in the main who bombed and killed 2 fhs while I was sitting in the tower. I asked him how often was he able to kill the fhs. He said 8 - 10 times he can hit and kill what he aims at. I didnt check his states, he may have been lying but from what I saw it looked like more then just luck.
There is reason bombers carried lots of bombs and why they attacked enmass and why they had to do it over and over.
1 lancaster didnt attack and sink the tirpitz it took multiple drops and sorties. 1 (a few) may have hit and sunk (disabled) the tirpitz but it wasnt a "1 shot 1 kill"
I dunno what you mean about me thinking I'm cool but I do think your an idiot. The sinking of tirpitz was hardly a precision strike. As for the capabilities of dive bombers I think Shiva answered you there.
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Attack on the Tirpitz was not done with the Norden.
The British used a precision bombsight for that attack.
In training the crews could hit within 200 yards of aiming point with that sight (the norden was much less accurate and only carried by some bombers not all of them).
Bombers without a bombsight dropped when the leader did probly reducing accuracy alot in the process.
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you said this
"BS bongo
read a book
Bombers never were used to kill individaul structures in rl so why make gameplay concesions now.
"
did they send level bombers to hit a specific target and sink it successfully or not.
Did they send level bombers to hit a specific structure and destroy it or not.
I even chose an example of each plane using a single bomb.
You have been foaming at the mouth that bombers where not used that way. Yet your own post proves they were.
Your babbling percentages. The bombers were designed and deployed and successful at hitting exact targets.
Good for Rudel. Lots of other pilots did the same. Many more dive bomber pilots failed to sink moored warships with strike after strike after strike.
Where was Rudel in Malta harbour when the Germans needed him.
If 20 dive bombers attacked a target in ww2 and all missed does that mean that dive bombing in AH should not work?
If the average fighter pilot could only hit 1% of the time and at ranges arround 200 yards should we limit the game to that..
Your image of what bombers should be able to do in the game is restricted by what was done with them in the battle of Germany and what you would like them to do. But when you start trying prove historically that that is all they were good for you are just lying.
and an idiot.
Not even a good lier since you post information that proves you wrong, but a hell of an idiot not to realize it, or in realizing it to still try your pathetic denials.
As for the statistical accuracy of carpet bombing.
most of that lack of accuracy was due to conditions at the target and all droping from a single mark from 20k plus.
remove the flack.
remove the smoke at the target and the intercepting fighters and the cold and the fear and all the other things that they faced.
Give them a clear sight picture of huge bomber hanger from 10k..
Lets see their accuracy on the range, state side before they ever went overseas.
That is what we have in AH.
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Wotan,
The Lancs that sank the Tirpitz were not using the area bombing "drop on the leader" tactics used in carpet bombing. Each Lanc made its own run and dropped on its own bombsight and bombardiers informations.
Carpet bombing = formation dropping on the leader's mark, something is bound to hit
Precision bombing = each bomber makes its own run and tries to hit the target, not just whatever ground happens to be under it when the leader drops.
What would your suggestion be to integrate the bombers into AH in a usefaul and fun way?
I agree that the FHs should be bomber resistant, as they are now.
There must be alternatives. You hated my idea and I hated your idea. There's got to be something.
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Reality, I keep reading this word and how different people want to apply it in AH. Reality would be closer to the actual if 50% of pilots were assigned to bombers, 25% to fighters and the rest to C47 goon and resupply runs. But that would disturb many folks idea of reality and spoil their fun.
So how about trying to come up with a concept that would put the bombers back into the game and doing useful work. What we have at the moment is not the answer.
If the factories were hit, such as a ammo factory and 25% of the factory went down resulting in that country only being able to get 3/4 of their bomb and rocket load at every air field and the same for fuel refinerys and troop training.Factory 50% dead, you only get half the the total availability..75% dead, only 25% of supply. That would result in bomb raids that mean something and the bombers would still have to be able to hit targets with the new bombsite.
To bring factories back on line it should take 10 resupply C47s for every 25%. Yes resupply would be important or attrition would take its toll.No automatic rebuilding of factories. Fighters would have to go back to original roles of attacking bombers or protecting them. Another bunch of fighters could make jabo runs at air fields and of course fighters there would try to stop them.
Of course this is only my conception of reality and I apologize if some else has put this idea of bombing out before and I missed the thread.
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Originally posted by Wotan
BS bongo
read a book
Bombers never were used to kill individaul structures in rl so why make gameplay concesions now.
Ok I'm back, I was off reading some books. Funny but I can't find anything in any WWII history book about airfields being shut down when the FHs were destroyed. However in reading about Guadalcanal, Henderson Field was threatened almost daily by Japanese bombers flying out of Rabaul. On many occasions, flight ops at Henderson were shutdown while repairs were made to the runway which had been pasted by high level bombers. More than a few times these disruptions to flight ops were an attempt to help Japanese ground forces trying to take the field. So I partly agree with Wontan in that bombers weren't usually used to hit individual structures but disagree in that they were used very successfully in ruining fighter pilots days.
Regarding the B-17s that flew over Europe. I read that while the bombardier was calibrating the bomb sight, they actually had people manning the guns. After playing AH, I would have thought that while the bombardier was calibrating, all gunners would have been taking a nap. (unless maybe they had someone join them in flight) You know these gunners would even tell the pilot when a con was sneaking up behind them. Amazing the things you get out of books.
So now having read these books, I guess we can ask HT for 2 additional features. 1) dumping 20-40k worth of bombs on a field's runways should close the field to flight ops for a while. 2) Every gun on a bomber should be manned at all times. If not with a real person then with an AI gunner. I'm with you on supporting reality Wontan.
Finally, I have to agree with ET. Everybody's concept of reality seems to fit what they like to fly best. If we had 100% reality, people would die and get wounded, face it that could get messy. No one is going to want to spend weeks at a time driving a fuel tanker from Portsmouth, New Hampshire to England so fighter bases in the UK have enought fuel to play for a few days. What people do want is something that gives you $15 worth of fun and entertainment per month. The furball guys may not like to hear this but many of the bomber guys don't feel like they're getting their money's worth. As these guys drop out of AH, HTC may not be able to provide the furballers with the kind of entertainment they want. The bottom line is another great sim fades into history. I think we can all agree we don't want that fate for AH.
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dont missunderstand me.
I like the bomber system as implemented in 1.10 and like the extra skill needed to hit. If it is fixed back to that level for me I will be a happy bombadier again cause I like the extra stuff to do.
I like being able to take down 14 hangers if I do my stuff right instead of 4.
There is a bug I think right now that doesnt let a few of us (at least skurj and me) bomb like in 1.10.
Someone has sugested a calibration of 25 seconds...ok Ill try that.. I dont care I can hold the crosshairs for as long as it takes.
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"Lancs level droped a single bomb onto a single ship and hit it.
is that a point target or what larry.. "
bet they couldn't do that again. Oh wait... they never did.
in the 60's a kid was killed by frozen poop dropped from an airliner. It is unclear what type of sight was used.
Why does killing FH's stop the ability for planes to take off? That is like saying if they tear up my parking space my car won't run.
It boils down to the fact that fluffs shouldn't have so much effect on fighters. Game or "realism" it ain't right. If you are on the realism side then... No... they never did. If you are on the game side... then.. why should they? Why should a couple of talentless guys substituting patience for skill be able to ruin the fun of so many others?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
"Lancs level droped a single bomb onto a single ship and hit it.
is that a point target or what larry.. "
bet they couldn't do that again. Oh wait... they never did.
in the 60's a kid was killed by frozen poop dropped from an airliner. It is unclear what type of sight was used.
Why does killing FH's stop the ability for planes to take off? That is like saying if they tear up my parking space my car won't run.
It boils down to the fact that fluffs shouldn't have so much effect on fighters. Game or "realism" it ain't right. If you are on the realism side then... No... they never did. If you are on the game side... then.. why should they? Why should a couple of talentless guys substituting patience for skill be able to ruin the fun of so many others?
lazs
Hmmm, take out everything not designed to piss someone off and your quote could be shortened to "frozen poop".
Buffs have never been able to end a furball all they do is move it around the map making resets possible. But v1.10 has taken care of this..now buffs are so easy to kill even a talentless fighter pilot using auto trim could kill one or two drones. Most of the pilots these days are running jabo missions because it's the quickest way to kill fields. In the pizza map, milk-runing jabos and GVs move the furball (if you can find one) around the map much faster than buffs ever did.
AH needs a furball arena for those 10-20 fighter pilots that not only don't want anything to do with ground targets but take offence if anyone attacks their precious FHs. When these guys can't find a furball all they do is grab a whole bunch of alt and drop in on poor defenseless jabo pilots forcing them to drop their ord and dive for the deck. As you say, talentless guys substituting patience for skill shouldn't be able to ruin the fun for so many others.
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in the 60's a kid was killed by frozen poop dropped from an airliner. It is unclear what type of sight was used.
Just goes to show that even if you live in an area without any strategic targets, you still have to worry about being hit by an icy B.M. :D
Why does killing FH's stop the ability for planes to take off? That is like saying if they tear up my parking space my car won't run.
How well will it run if we blow up your garage and drop the wreckage on top of your car?
It boils down to the fact that fluffs shouldn't have so much effect on fighters. Game or "realism" it ain't right.
And neither is it 'right' that a formation of Lancasters can scatter twenty-one tons of bombs along a runway, and the fighters taking off on that runway will be able to taxi right through the craters as if they were painted on the ground -- but I don't see you complaining about that, Or are you going to argue that it's not realistic to use level bombers to chew up runways to deny their use to the enemy when that very use is heavily documented?
Yes, blowing up the hangars is an artificial mechanism; it's easier to arbitrarily decide that destroying all of the fighter hangars at a field keeps anyone from launching fighters than listen to everyone whining about the twits who gamed the sim by dropping 1,000-lb bombs just in front of the runway spawn points so everyone who tries to take off breaks their gear as they taxi into the crater before they can react.
Why should a couple of talentless guys substituting patience for skill be able to ruin the fun of so many others?
Judging from how many people I've seen posting squeakes and 'help me' requests about the new bombsight calibration, it seems to me that bombing accurately requires skill of its own. But you don't care about that; if it doesn't involve letting you take off and dive into a furball whenever, wherever, and however you want, it has no value to you. Where your reasoning falls on its face and dies, though, is that you're absolutely convinced that you are the sole and unquestioned arbiter -- that if something has no value to you, it therefore has no value to anyone, and if someone says otherwise, then their opinion is worthless. And you attempt to marginalize their position by using a derogatory term, as if calling them a silly name somehow magically makes them silly.
I could say that the people who believe that the only purpose of an air-combat simulation is to allow people to furball in fighters are using the macho symbolism of a high-powered fighter controlled by their hand firmly grasping their joystick (and a lovely double-entendre that is, too) to try to compensate in the artificial world of the game for their real-life sexual inadequacies, and feel unreasonably threatened by people who threaten their ability to get their noodle substitute thrusting firmly into the air -- a castration complex, as it were.
And I could say this over and over again, repeating the same diatribe until everyone's sick of it, and it wouldn't make a bit of difference -- if what I say does describe you, then it describes you, and if it doesn't describe you, no amount of repetition is going to make it describe you.
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Yes they should laz
live with it.
If the LW let a lanc loiter over thier field at 10k with no ack or fighter oposition on a clear day it would have raped em...
live with it.
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Interesting posts guys, I would just like to add that the only instance I know of where a single level bomber achieved a 1 hit one kill on a major target (unfortunetly I don't have any books to quote for exact info) is by the luftwaffe in the Med where a Italian Battleship was heading for UK after surrender, the Germans used a single HE111 with a new untried guided bomb to sink it, bombadier used radio singles and joystic to remote control the rocket propelled bombs path straight down the funnel of the Battleship and sinking it with heavy loss of life.
Apparently Hitler was informed that it was sunk, but by Stukas. As they didn't want Hitler to think he had a new secert terror weapon to focus on and take development from other criticle projects at the time.
Very interesting , as I only learnt of this a few months ago. Sorry I don't know the weight of the bomb or any other detailed information though sure its on the web somewhere.
In AH we have a great range of bombers to use. And now the ability to use them as they were designed, as Medium and Strategic Bombers. We just need the targets for them to be more usefull and effective in hitting. Cities (bigger),factories,depots,railyards etc which have more of an impact in the arena when destroyed and also stay destroyed longer then just a few minutes. Therefore giving the buffs an important role to play in AH once again.
Just my 2 cents.
...-Gixer
The Horse Soldiers
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Just to throw a little fuel on the fire....I'm surprised that with all the talk about the Tirpitz, no one has mentioned the most famous sinking of a battleship by a single bomb from a level bomber, the Arizona at Pearl Harbor !
It was not Jabos, not torpedoes, but a single bomb released from a high alt Japanese LEVEL bomber that penetrated straight down to the ammunition magazine and took the ship out with one blast.
It has been recreated in the most recent Pearl Harbor movie, that's not a dive bomber, but a level bomber.
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Originally posted by MOSQ
It was not Jabos, not torpedoes, but a single bomb released from a high alt Japanese LEVEL bomber that penetrated straight down to the ammunition magazine and took the ship out with one blast.
It has been recreated in the most recent Pearl Harbor movie, that's not a dive bomber, but a level bomber.
I take it you're joking, but if not, where'd the level bomber come from? Off the carriers? Shangri-La?
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why not?
all a level bomber needs is a bombsight,
oh..........and a bomb
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Originally posted by BenDover
why not?
all a level bomber needs is a bombsight,
oh..........and a bomb
Duh, yeah, I forgot that the Kate could be used as a level bomber.
Even then, the accounts I saw had the Japanese bombers hitting the ship from around 3000 meters, not the 8000+ meters of the typical pre-1.10 bombing run.