Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: -tronski- on July 27, 2002, 08:56:58 AM
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Su-27 crash @ Ukraine airshow
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2002/07/item20020727224242_1.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2155479.stm
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News at the radio told about 66 deads and 67 wounded....
Terrible day for aviation...
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MSNBC has video
http://www.msnbc.com/news/786332.asp
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Good to hear the 2 crewmen ejected successfully before their aircraft plowed into the crowd. :rolleyes:
Prayers go out to the victims.
Lonz
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Originally posted by DmdBT
Good to hear the 2 crewmen ejected successfully before their aircraft plowed into the crowd. :rolleyes:
Prayers go out to the victims.
Lonz
You think there was anything they could do once the wingtip hit the ground? Go down with their plane, as to avoid critizism and rolling eye emoticons?
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Originally posted by DmdBT
Good to hear the 2 crewmen ejected successfully before their aircraft plowed into the crowd. :rolleyes:
Prayers go out to the victims.
Lonz
what an uneeded comment. The situation is bad enough without that.
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Bad safety measures
definitly
:(
poor children i would not want to step in those pilots shoes
Seeing ur plane crash in the crowd would not be something to sleep with easily.
But seen it to much those formerly soviet pilots are fast ejecters IMHO
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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
But seen it to much those formerly soviet pilots are fast ejecters IMHO
WTF are you supposed to do?
Wait till your plane has no wings left to decide there is nothing you can do and eject?
A pilot knows when he cant save the plane. And only fools with a death wish stay inside thinking a miracle will happen.
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I think they are dare devils
showing the plane on the edge.
they only calculate the ejection seat and no other safety measures
yes they are trained to eject to bad they don't calculate there would be a plane coming down to
but hell.. i think they doing it all to risky
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My understanding is that at US airshows anyway the planes never, ever, point at the crowd (the crowd is always on one side of the runway and the forward vector of the performers can come no closer than parallel to that runway). I wonder if such a rule would have helped here- lots of pilots seem to die at U.S. airshows but I do not recall ever hearing of any spectator deaths.
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I saw the crash on one of our national news stations. Only they didn't speak over the clip. Made it a little more scary to be able to hear the panic.
At the end of the story they also mentioned when a similar accident last happend. They said it was at an airshow on a US/NATO airbase in Germany and also showed a video clip.
I believe they said it happend in '88, but not 100% sure.
Ok, I just found the clip.
It was 3 italian aircrafts that collided at an US airshow in Ramstein (sp?), Germany in 1988, where 70 got killed and 400+ injured.
This clip also shows the Ukrainian crash more detailed than the above I think. There is a cut in the clip, but it appear that the pilots don't eject, until the plane actually clips the ground.
I'm not sure, since they change to a different camera, but I can't see them ejecting on the first clip and the SU-27 gets very close to the ground there (if it doesn't hit). When the second clip starts, they are already catapulted out while the plane tumble.
Sorry, but not english speak.
http://www1.dr.dk/pubs/nyheder/template/lib/ram.jhtml?multimediaID=42685
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Cc it was at Ramstein, when 3 planes of the italian patrol collided. One was flying towards the crowd at this time and crashed into it. I think it happened in the late 80's.
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The Ukrainian aviation authority does not have the same airshow safety regulations as we have in the west.
In the west, you can't direct any energy towards the crowd.
Daff
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Originally posted by Bluefish
My understanding is that at US airshows anyway the planes never, ever, point at the crowd (the crowd is always on one side of the runway and the forward vector of the performers can come no closer than parallel to that runway). I wonder if such a rule would have helped here- lots of pilots seem to die at U.S. airshows but I do not recall ever hearing of any spectator deaths.
This is true. Unfortunately, the airshows aren't nearly as exciting now as they were when I was a kid...
Guess that's the price of safety.
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How sad. :(
I was at an airshow today. There but by the grace of God...
BTW Planes at US airshows routinely point at and go over the crowd. Blue Angels, prop acro planes, WWII fighters, etc.
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yes thwey do fly over the fans..they do at reno air races..
and it sur looked llike the pilots..well i only see 1 ejects ..but parachute dosesnt open toillafter he hits gorund...Golly-gee as afellow pilot..i hate seeing that sht..
God ..help there families and friends....
Love BiGB
xoxoxo
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WTF are you supposed to do?
Anyone here remember the brave Mig-29 pilot who actually pointed his plane straight down after one of his engines flamed out? He ejected at about 75 feet and lived to tell the tale. His plane smashed into the ground and no one was killed at the airshow. Thats the way your supposed to do it.
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Originally posted by fdiron
Anyone here remember the brave Mig-29 pilot who actually pointed his plane straight down after one of his engines flamed out? He ejected at about 75 feet and lived to tell the tale. His plane smashed into the ground and no one was killed at the airshow. Thats the way your supposed to do it.
From what I could tell, aircraft control was already lost before ejection
Tronsky
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Originally posted by fdiron
Anyone here remember the brave Mig-29 pilot who actually pointed his plane straight down after one of his engines flamed out? He ejected at about 75 feet and lived to tell the tale. His plane smashed into the ground and no one was killed at the airshow. Thats the way your supposed to do it.
Good for him, he still had control.
In this case, the pilot had lost all control of the aircraft.
Have you flown a plane? Think of it as when you fall into a flat spin in a flight sim. Now, imagine that at 100 feet off the ground.
When you lose control, you move your joystick/yoke, rudder, etc around and it makes little difference. Now, explain to me how you expect the crew to pull a trick out of their tulips in five seconds.
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Now, explain to me how you expect the crew to pull a trick out of their tulips in five seconds.
By having a buffer of a 1000ft or more
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The Thunderbirds and the Blue Angels both use a ghost runway to line up all stunts. This usually is a runway a few hundred feet away from the main runway (on the opposite side of the crowd). All acrobatic stunts are done to that reference to avoid aiming the planes at the crowd during riskey maneuvers. Basically... they'd not be coming out of a loop and facing the crowd.
I recall the crash at Ramstein too... the plane veered after the collision slightly. That footage was simply horrible.
AKDejaVu
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I just re-watched the video. The plane didnt seem totally out of control as it came in and clipped its wing. It definately wasnt in a flat spin. If the pilots would have ejected while the plane was on a vertical trajectory instead of trying to save the plane (and risking peoples lives), then about 67 people would be alive today.
I would say that the SU27 was on the 'verge of control' rather than out of control. I think the pilots could have dove into the ground instead of the debris-and-flaming-gas crash landing that they performed.
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Anyone have a count on how many Mig29s and SU27's have been lost in airshows? It seems to me that this occurs virtually every year or two, and I know for a fact that one Mig pilot has survived 3 ejections, 2 of them at airshows.
A friend I went to high school with, Cliff De Jong, lost his father in a crash with the Canadian Snowbirds. I grew up on the air base where they are based, and his father rode in a Tutor Snowbird Jet at an airshow in the 1970's when he felt he couldn't safely eject without the plane hitting the crowd. I'll look up the story, I've seen it on the net before. Too bad these SU27 pilots had so little altitude when they realized they were in trouble.
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I would say that the SU27 was on the 'verge of control' rather than out of control. I think the pilots could have dove into the ground instead of the debris-and-flaming-gas crash landing that they performed.
On what do you base this on? Are you a aviation crash investigator specialising in Soviet aircraft?
Face it, you've got absolutely no idea what was happening to that plane or how much control the pilot had over it.
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It was Frecce Tricolo at Ramstein airbase in 1988 that had one of the worst accidents I've ever seen (on film!). One plane literally cartwheeled into the crowd. It was from this experience that the UK airshow scene dramatically changed and now prevent many manouvres taking place in the name of pilot and crowd safety.
I really cannot comment on what procedures are given in the Ukraine for flight practice before the airshow to make sure that their display is entirely safe. I must confess that it did seem to be a very dangerous and perhaps reckless manouvre to attempt at an airshow - don't they have a minimum altitude cut off?
Over the years there have been numerous MiG29 & Su27 accidents which must mean something. I believe it's far too much of a coincidence. I can understand the MiG29 having more accidents because it's not even fly-by-wire. At the Royal International Air Tattoo (RIAT) at RAF Cottesmore in 2001 there was a safety breach by at German MiG29. RIAT were saying at how the CAA had never had to order a plane to land at a RIAT display but they spoke too soon. The MiG29 dived down and was close to nose-diving before it managed to pull up. It was swiftly ordered to land for diviating from it's pre-planned routine.
Unfortunately this kind of accident will only make airshows even more stricter and no doubt the anti-airdisplay lobby will be rubbing their hands. What I would like to know is what sort of practice and safety margins were incorporated into the display before the event took place. Remember that these are experienced pilots, but flying a plane at its limits and at low level means that things can go wrong, including pilot error. We will await the official report.
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Originally posted by fdiron
I just re-watched the video. The plane didnt seem totally out of control as it came in and clipped its wing. It definately wasnt in a flat spin. If the pilots would have ejected while the plane was on a vertical trajectory instead of trying to save the plane (and risking peoples lives), then about 67 people would be alive today.
I would say that the SU27 was on the 'verge of control' rather than out of control. I think the pilots could have dove into the ground instead of the debris-and-flaming-gas crash landing that they performed.
Momentum.
Even if you still have control, it doesnt make a difference if you are a few feet from the ground in a heavy fighter.
It was impossible to recover miraculously so close to the ground.
The more I watch the video, the more I think I would have also pulled the handle. Either that, or add up to the casualties and die with relative "honor" (idiotic).
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"Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity of neglect"
Including carelessness in crowd placement at airshows.
What is 500 or 1000 or even 2000 feet to an out of control aircraft doing 500 knots? 500 Knots per hour equals 843.905 Feet per second. How big does the "buffer" need to be again?
People want to be "up close to the action". Accidents do happen. The solo in Frecce Tricolore at Ramstein hit two other aircraft on his pass and the solo's wreckage went into the crowd.
There are risks awaiting us everyday, around every corner, on every street, on every highway.
You want the crowd to be safe? Put them a mile or two from show center. Oh... wait... no one will come. ;)
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Originally posted by Animal
Momentum.
What? He couldn't just stick out his leg and drag his heel? :rolleyes:
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Watch Snefens movie link, and tie that in to the engine failure scenario
Pilot loses power in the middle of a turn away from the crowd, tries to dive to regain energy, and snaprolls into the trees trying to pull up. rest is history
Thats my speculation
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Toad, it looked to me like they had crowds on both sides of the display area.
Daff
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That's what I mean Daff.
If you are going to put them up close to show center.. one side, both sides, whatever.. there's always risk.
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Well, with the crowds only on one side, the pilot can direct the energy of the maneuvers to the other side.
I know that here in the UK, they have to show their display to the organizer first for those exact reasons and I think (not sure on this), that they also have to have an 'escape' plan for every single manuever should it go wrong.
Daff
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Yes, I've been involved in a few airshows and attended the pilot briefings.
I know how "the plan" goes. The problem is if something TRULY goes wrong "the plan" may suddenly be worthless.
As far as all always directing the energy vector away from the crowd.... well, "always" is a mighty big word.
Just about every show I've ever been in or attended had an aircraft energy vector pointing at or very close to the crowd one or more times during an act.
"Bomb-burst" maneuvers spring to mind, with four aircraft coming in low, going vertical near show center and breaking out into individual loops at the apex only to rejoin at show center again.
There's parts of that maneuver that direct energy at the crowd.
The Blues used to be famous for having the four-ship attract your attention out front while a solo sneaked in behind the crowd on the deck and roared in with his hair on fire right over the assembled multitude. It was great. Don't know if they do it anymore though. What if he had an elevator pitch down malfunction as he came up on the crowd? Not impossible.
So... "always" is a mighty big word.
Accidents happen. There isn't ever going to be a "guarantee" at an airshow.
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Originally posted by Daff
The Ukrainian aviation authority does not have the same airshow safety regulations as we have in the west.
In the west, you can't direct any energy towards the crowd.
Daff
First. I am half-Ukrainian...
Second. Ukraine is probably the next country to join NATO 5-10 years later...
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Thinking about it again...
Pilots were probably ejected by an automatic system... K-36 ejection seat can save the crew from ground level of from 20m upside-down...
I wonder... Will they take a gun and make an act of officer's honour?...
It's not like I think they are to blame, no. It's just a... Don't know how to call it... "Tradition" is a wrong word.
Ukrainians already arrested Ukrainian VVS commander, 14th IAK commander and all his staff (shtab), Army chief of staff already fired too...
Last year is really not lucky for Ukrainian military. That Tu-154 with 60 Jews shot down, then - this tragedy...
It's hard for me to say this, but I have to call it "amateur armed forces".
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Originally posted by Boroda
It's hard for me to say this, but I have to call it "amateur armed forces".
I'm beginning to think that too.
Amateurish in their deadly mistakes, and in the quick way they deal justice after those mistakes happen.
What happened to investigation and trial?
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Originally posted by moose
Watch Snefens movie link, and tie that in to the engine failure scenario
Pilot loses power in the middle of a turn away from the crowd, tries to dive to regain energy, and snaprolls into the trees trying to pull up. rest is history
Thats my speculation
I watched video from CNN.com that had no voiceover--the engine sound did seem to drop right as the plane snapped over, but maybe that was due to the orientation of the plane?
Sure did look like an accelerated stall, though. Pilot pulls too hard, inside wing stalls, it's game over?
Horrible tragedy :(
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I'd like to hear what eagl has to say about the scenario above
Is that feasible? I've seen and had my AH planes do the exact same thing before at low speeds but those are prop planes and im not sure if i'm not seeing something
though the basic fact is that there was a loss of lift over the wings that plane isnt gonna fly
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The plane way in astall for sure. The guy was in a bank when he hit the ground. In Aces High, when you are pulling too low from a loop, are you guys staying in bank?
Hell no! You guys go wings level to maximize your lift. The fact that he was still in a bank makes me think that he was trying to avoid hitting the ground facing the crowd. Alas when the wingtip hit, the planed tumbled toward the crowd.
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I see the problem...
fdiron and BUG_EAF322 were not the pilots as if they were they'd performed a miracle and sacrifice themselves and saved the innocent bystanders :rolleyes:
some of you "critics", turn my stomach :(
prayers to the families of those killed, wounded & crippled for life
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I hopeur stomach turns good than
never said i wanna be the pilot
but their safety measures sucked imho
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It might be impossible for a westerner to understand but what Boroda said is ingrained in russian/ukrainian people's culture regarding aviation.
Whether the pilot was in control or not, whether he could do anything or just attempt in vain, he should have stayed with the ship that was likely to hit civillians.
I sure hope that was an automatic eject. Nevertheless the pilot will be expected to do the honorable thing and suicide - afer all it was his action/mistake that killed those people.
miko
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A wise man once said:
"Shit happens, then you die."
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OMG,,,thats is BS....commit suicide??!!
Ho wabout he helps train other pilots on what no tto do...IF IT WAS his FAULT....!!
What if it was Mech failure???
ThaT IS A HORRIBLE ATTITUDE AND A LOT OF GOOD PEOPLE DIED CAUSE OF THAT thinking...
oops sorry for the caps....anyways...Why would you want to cause more sorrow???
His family , friends..and fellow pilots.....
I understand that is the way of eastern bloks...but there is no FREAKN reason to continue that "tradition"...that is really a unproductive tactic..and for you to say he should kill him self.....that is wackkk..
Milk//How do you know it was his fault???
Love BiGB
xoxo
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Originally posted by BGBMAW
OMG,,,thats is BS....commit suicide??!!
Ho wabout he helps train other pilots on what no tto do...IF IT WAS his FAULT....!!
What if it was Mech failure???
ThaT IS A HORRIBLE ATTITUDE AND A LOT OF GOOD PEOPLE DIED CAUSE OF THAT thinking...
oops sorry for the caps....anyways...Why would you want to cause more sorrow???
His family , friends..and fellow pilots.....
I understand that is the way of eastern bloks...but there is no FREAKN reason to continue that "tradition"...that is really a unproductive tactic..and for you to say he should kill him self.....that is wackkk..
Milk//How do you know it was his fault???
Love BiGB
xoxo
Well...
It's not about "eastern block", it's muuuch older. JFYI, in early XX century Russian officers were obliged to solve problems that engage question of Honour by duels... In some cases the only solution was a gun with one bullet... In some cases, like admirals Nebogatov and Rozhestvensky, the public opinion was really expecting them to commit suicide, if they didn't have the guts to fight to the end and die in combat.
I only meant I'll not be surprised if that Su pilots will choose this obvious solution.
BTW, the black boxes clearly showed that it wasn't a technical faut. The worst thing is that when they flew to Lvov they discovered that the airfield setup is completely different from what they expected, with planes on display and public in a place that was supposed to be clear. I doubt that any bastard responsible for the ground setup will admit his fault. Bloody freaks. :mad:
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Well Sadly enough in almost all the crashes reported it is concluded that it was pilot error regardless of who might have done what. Being the maintenance crew or ground setup etc. Since you're the Pilot in Command you're responsible for every action you take while having the aircraft in the air or on the ground. At least,that's how its done over here.
So either way I think those pilots are gonna get it in the end, even if it was a catastrophic and unintentional incident. :(
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hmmi bettr stpr "pretend " straffing my home field in the cessna 152.....lololo
any you guys flyn in the Nor Cal area..im N-89629....out of Lincoln..(LHM)
Love BiGB
x0x0x0