Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: ~Caligula~ on July 28, 2002, 09:09:54 AM
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So far they killed a 13 years old arab girl and wounded many more,coming home from the funreral of one of the victims of the car ambush that happened a few days ago.
sigh.....they just lowered themselves to their enemies level.
I hope they will be punished hard.
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Do you think the IDF will put the settlement they came from under 30 day curfew? Launch airstrikes to kill the men responsible? Demolish their houses and deport their relatives?
No, I don't either.
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Originally posted by Nashwan
Do you think the IDF will put the settlement they came from under 30 day curfew? Launch airstrikes to kill the men responsible? Demolish their houses and deport their relatives?
No, I don't either.
If a US citizen kills a non-US citizen in some random US town (or some other place where US law applies), do you think the US army should enforce a 30 day curfew in that town? Do you think the USAF should launch airstrikes to kill the citizen responsible? Should the US army move in, demolish the suspects house and deport his relatives?
Not really a good idea...right? Might even be a good idea to let domestic US law handle that one? (Hint: use this example to guid you to an answer to your question)
On the other hand, what if a terrorist (who is not a US citizen) kills alot of US citizens in a terrorist attack. Would it be ok to send the US army and the USAF after that terrorist, his house, his relatives? (Hint: make any comparrison with 9-11, Afghanistan and AlQeida you want if it makes it easier to come up with an answer)
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I've no respect for either side. They don't even know what they are fighting about anymore.. tit for tat for tit for tat.. on and on and on.. retribution for what? its so sandbox/childish. Of course they will never stop fighting, its like the catholics/protestant deal in Ireland. Taught from childhood to hate the other side to carry on some age-old religious feud. Killing because your imaginary friend tell you to in HIS name.. friggin' nuts.
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It's not a good idea to treat two different population groups in the same area differently.
Right now, there's a lot of Palestinians thinking that the Israelis only care about Jewish lives, and couldn't care less how many Palestinians die. Result = more terrorist attacks.
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Cal...the rioting started when the Palestinians started throwing stones at the funeral procession. Seems to me that if you've got half a brain, you aren't going to goad a group of mourners after your people killed the victim in question.
I hope the Israelis crack down on those settlers that killed that girl too. I also hope those handsomehunk Palestinians that started lobbing rocks at the mourners get arrested and jailed.
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i reckon the palestinies are at fault
first of all:
they go suiciding and taking down innocent israeli civilians down with them and dont mention nothing about the geneva convention.
they aim for civilians and then hide behind children and women for cover.
2nd:
every time a cease fire was in effect, it was always the palestinies who broke it and israel do not retaliate until a warning has been given several times and palestinis ignores them all.
3rd: practically the bombers live in civilian occupied areas and in order for the israeli army to search out them, they must go into the residential areas. hasn't anyone seen the tapes of roomloads of bombs been uncovered in palestinine buildings???
4th:
Palestinines claims of Israeli army slaughtering innocent ppl in refugee camps is full of toejam...
...if so, how come there are bullet holes all over the place, surely an evidence of a firefight has taken place.
5th: Israel tries to capture suicide bombers but they can't cause the bombers blow themselves up before the army can catch them. so israel put their families in exile. this is just an example for those other bombers to not kill israelis because their families will the get consequences. and wat the hell those palestine do and say israel does not follow the geneva convention!!!!does palestine's killing of innocent civilians go under the rules of the geneva convention???? ha!
I reckon the war in the middle east should end. either palestine agree to peace in the long term and stop planning those ridiculous suicide attack or israel can just put a curfew on palestine forever. after all no one dies in a curfew...
...and why the hell are the media doing defending those "poor people blow themselves up to kill others"
its outrageous!!!!
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at least aim for israeli army if the palestines dare.. wat do they do??? they aim for innocent ppl...
they killed a family including father mother and daughter...doesn't anyone think bfore doing anything over there???? sooooo stupid!!!!
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Not that I'm trying to excuse the murder, but the palestinians
shouldnt throw rocks on a funeralparty in the first place.
Peter.
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Yeah Snowball; I heard some mofo dropped a 1 ton bomb straight to the town in there and by doing do killed 15 people which 9 was childrens.
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Yeaaa!!! I hope they all kill each other. I mean it's exactly what both sides want. So when every Israeli and every Palestenian is dead both sides will be happy in hell because they "won"! Yeaaa! :(
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I am a Bomb Technician. I was fortunate enough today to speak with one of the leading members of the Israeli Police Bomb Disposal Group in person. He spent 2 1/2 hours telling us what it is like over there and what he and his men have to do on a daily basis with video evidence in support..
There are 2 sides to every story and i've heard 1. This bloke was honest, upfront, not the type to exagerate or make more of himself or his group than was necessary and I have absolutely no reason to doubt that he told me nothing but the truth.
You only hear about the ones that the Palestinians manage to get off, but not about the many hundreds that are intercepted before they kill and maim that dont make the news. To give you an idea of their workload. They attend about 200 Incidents a week. Yes...a week. Deliberately targetting Civilian targets including Ambulances.
They are in a Combat zone. Targetted by their enemies and for all intensive purposes definately the bravest men, ive ever met.
Their own life is second to the innocents around them. Some of the stories are quite unbelieveable but true.
There is no point in argueing who is right and who is wrong. Noone over there is innocent but if half of what this gentleman was saying is true and I believe it is, then most of the Media dribble we get in the Western world concerning the Palistinian Martyers is largely BS and they have a lot more to answer for than we hear about over here.
But that is the nature of War.
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I`m sure nobody here has any doubt about what side I`m on.
When I started this tread I didn`t know about the pals starting it by throwing rocks..(what a surprise,they`ve never been known to do such thing)
But even than I can`t justify people running down a street and shooting up others randomly.They should have let the army or the police deal with it.
I never said israelis are all angels.I`m sure that it was perfectly clear that taking out that hamas dipshit will result in many civilian deaths.I guess they figured the public outrage will blow over with time,and at least they`ve killed a hard to get terrorist leader.
BTW if that guy really cared about he`s people he wouldn`t hide between all those kids,when he knows he`s wanted and he`s sole presence puts others in danger.
But it was still a stupid move in my oppinion.Doing the same that the US was doing in Vietnam.
Israel IS the best ally of the USA in this war against terror.
They fight terror every day.I`m sure the intelligence info that US gets from them is very useful.And don`t forget about who the allies asked about how to deal with arab airdefences before the Gulf War based on the IAF`s performance over the Bekaa Valley.
I`m sure there`s absolutelly no debate there wether Saddam should be taken out or not.But all these europian popsicle governments are just whining about no evidence and such BS.
1936 re-enacted as far as I see it.
Iraq needs to be hit,Saddam captured and taken around the world in a cage so everyone who wants to could spit on him,then publicly hanged at where the WTC used to be.
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Iraq needs to be hit,Saddam captured and taken around the world in a cage so everyone who wants to could spit on him,then publicly hanged at where the WTC used to be.
What about adding the Saoudian scumbags ?
Why do we keep thoses bastards in charge ?
Because of their petrol ...
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~Caligula~: I`m sure there`s absolutelly no debate there wether Saddam should be taken out or not...
Iraq needs to be hit,Saddam captured and taken around the world in a cage so everyone who wants to could spit on him,then publicly hanged at where the WTC used to be.
What did he ever do to us before and after we attacked him in defence of the Kuwaiti princes?
Of all the countries in the region Iraq is the most progressive and reasonable - an actual secular state with a "president" rather than a monarch. We should have supported him against rotten religious monarchies rather than driven him closer to the fundamentalists.
straffo: What about adding the Saudian scumbags?
Why do we keep thoses bastards in charge ?
Because of their petrol ...
Not really. Iraq would have sold us the same saudi and kuwaiti oil at the same price. Saudi prices managed to manupulate us into fighting their enemy for them - at the same time sicking their population on us to divert them from internal problems.
miko
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There must be some pretty good crack sold in Brooklyn.
Saddam sponsores terrorism....openly and he`s proud of it.
He can`t wait to get he`s hands on some nukes,and I don`t know about You,but I don`t have any doubts about what he would do with them.
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We supported Saddam for a quite a long time, in fact we were even close to selling him a bunch of M1A1 Abrams tanks in the late 1980s. He actually used a few demonstration Abrams in the war. :D
But guess what?
He attacked our oil, I mean Kuwait. And threatened more of our oil, oh sorry I mean Saudi Arabia. Then he was bad for us and our interestets.
How sad that two of old buddies betray us, first Saddam then Osama...
Oh well, now we gotta kill em!
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Caligula~: Saddam sponsores terrorism....openly and he`s proud of it.
So do Saudi's and Kuwaitis - in case you did not notice, there were not any iraqis or palestinians among the 19 hijackers but plenty of saudis doing what their schools teach them.
I am yer to hear about hussein sponsoring any terrorism against US - even after we attacked him.
He can`t wait to get he`s hands on some nukes,and I don`t know about You,but I don`t have any doubts about what he would do with them.
That's because you are forgot that there are more countries in the world than just USA and Iraq.
The 8-year war they had in 80s the against a deadly fanatical enemy with 66 mil against their 20 mil was with Iran, not USA.
Irak may be pretty backward by our standards, but being secular and preudo-democratic, the rest of the middle-age monarchies out there all hate them.
So they probably did not develop the bomb all those years against US - which was their friend, but against Iran and other neighbours - just like Pakistan and India and China and Israel. I do not hear you calling to blow those up.
Like Pinochert vs communists, "president" Hussein is much closer to us than medieval religious monarchs we protected from him.
miko
P.S. Women vote and work in Iraq. And the phrase "ALLAHU AKBAR (God is Great) was added to the flag in 1991 during the Persian Gulf crisis (like our "under god" under pretext of fighting communists).
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miko2d wrote: That's because you are forgot that there are more countries in the world than just USA and Iraq. The 8-year war they had in 80s the against a deadly fanatical enemy with 66 mil against their 20 mil was with Iran, not USA.
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You forgot to tell the fact that Iraq was the aggressor in the Iran- Iraq-War.
This stupid president Saddam Hussein thought he could win against Iran because Iran was in the middle of a bloody revolution and most of the excellent-US-trained iranian officers were killed or had left Iran.
He even called the operation the Second Quaddisia - named after the place where in the middle age the islamic arab hordes won the decisive battle against the iranians of the sassanid dynasty.
It was the most effective way to mobilise the hate of all iranians against - what they define - the subhuman arab hordes.
With this - and the promise of their religious leader Khomeini that every warrior who dies in battle will enter paradise - the iranian became indeed a fanatic force.
There are reports where iranian stormtroops overwhelmed iraqi defense positions by keeping pressure until the iraqi run out of ammunition. The losses of these iranians storm-units were horrendreous but they managed with this fanatism to end Saddams blitzkrieg and to kick the iraquis out.
After the catastrophical defeat of Khorramshar - where one of the most important iraqui army force was surrounded and forced to surrender Iraq lost the initiative to Iran.
So Saddams blitzkrieg became a desaster.
Only with massive military help from the USSR, France - and also the USA - Iraq was able to hold the line.
After 8 years the war ended. Not with a peace treaty but only a cease-fire. This is also the situation today : Iran and Iraq still have not officially signed a peace treaty.
After the 1st Gulf War the economy of Iraq was scattered - so they finally attacked Kuwait and the nations which had supported Saddam with military equipment came in an operation called Desert Storm, freed Kuwait and destroyed the weapon-arsenal of the Frankenstein-monster they had built before.
This idiot Saddam even sent 150 of his fighters to Iran - expecting that they would give the planes back.
But all these planes are now in the colours of the iranian air force.
The only reason why the mad dog Saddam was not deposed after his catastrophic defeat during Desert Storm was the fact that there was no effective pro-western opposition in Iraq.
The most powerful opposition forces were the kurds (and the NATO-partner Turkey with a significant kurd-minority dont want to see them to have any important influence in the region) and the iraqui shiŽites (and the exile government of high-ranking iraqui religious leaders is in Teheran).
So it was accepted that the mad dog could continue his bloody reign.
And thats the situation today.
The only tragic thing is that many brave soldiers and inncoents on both sides had to die during Desert Storm - many other crippled or suffering from strange illnesses - while Mr. Hussein is living a life in luxury and is not caring if his people is dying because of the embargo...
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Originally posted by babek-
You forgot to tell the fact that Iraq was the aggressor in the Iran- Iraq-War.
Even if it's true, so what? Why do we have to get involved? Is Iran our ally by treaty (and mutual obligation)? Is it even a democratic country?
There are plenty of wars in the world in which US does not get involved. Especially by supporting medieval monarchy against its population.
In this case someone up top got paid or somehow persuaded by Saudi pinces to have US fight their battles - and take the blame and hate of muslim world.
miko
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Not that I'm trying to excuse the murder, but the palestinians
shouldnt throw rocks on a funeralparty in the first place.
They didn't.
This is what Ha'aretz, an Israeli newspaper has to say about the incident:
During the funeral procession for Leibovitz, who was born in the Jewish enclave in the town, calls for revenge turned into rock-throwing at Palestinians in the neighborhoods between the Tomb of the Patriarchs and the Jewish cemetery in the town.
According to settlers, they were only protecting themselves against rock-throwing by Palestinians, who were placed under curfew by the authorities before the funeral to prevent friction. Eyewitnesses, including foreign press photographers on the scene, reported that the incitement during the funeral march had quickly turned into rock-throwing and a rampage through the open market, where settlers overturned stalls and burned a house. In the chaos, extensive shooting took place, with Israel Defense Forces troops, deployed in large numbers, firing into the air and settlers shooting at buildings. The IDF said no Palestinians had been shooting.
There was extensive shooting at buildings and, according to Palestinian sources, the girl, Nizin Jamjoum, 14, was standing on the balcony of her home when she was fatally shot in the head. Her brother, Marwan, 26, was injured in the incident. At least six more Palestinians had also been injured, doctors at the city's Alia Hospital said.
The injured included Ahmed Natcha, 8, who was stabbed when a group of settlers broke into his home and smashed furniture, said the boy's father, Hussain Natcha. The boy was in stable condition, the father said.
Leibowitz, 21, was killed on Friday in the same ambush that killed three members of the Dikstein family from Psagot who were on their way to visit friends. A few months ago, Leibowitz had prepared a will that included instructions for his funeral, who should eulogize him and how he was to be buried. As one of the soldiers in his infantry unit, which attended the funeral yesterday said, "He had strong political opinions."
The "funeral procession" was an excuse for a pogrom, nothing more. What's striking is that whilst settlers were going on their muderous rampage, shooting at Palestinian homes, the IDF and police fired "into the air". When Palestinian children throw stones at IDF tanks, the IDF doesn't fire into the air, it fires at the children.
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Originally posted by miko2d
Even if it's true, so what? Why do we have to get involved?
Please dont misunderstand me.
I wanted to add an important fact - otherwise people who didnt knew this could win sympathies for Iraq because this small 20mio people were fighting an 8 years war against the bad 60mio iranians.
Fact is that Saddam is a mad dog who had destabilized the whole region.
But I agree that a military operation against Iraq is senseless.
It will not reduce the terroristic activities in teh world - in contrary.
Also soldiers have to die in this senseless operation.
Just look at Afghanistan.
The current situation is like during the soviet occipuation. The allied forces hold some (not all) of the major cities.
In the meantime in the rest of the land they are again fighting their clanwars and waiting for their chance to remove the puppet Karsai - like the soviet puppet before.
And already 2 of Karsais ministers have been assassinated in these inner fightings.
If we have problems to control a totally destructed Afghanistan - what will happen after a victory against Iraq?
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What kind of pogrom are You talking about?
You forgot to mention that the police stopped the rampage,arrested many settlers and closed off the jewish part of Hebron.
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The usual kind of pogrom, although the usual victims were the perpetrators this time.
The police arrested 4 settlers, out of approx 4000 inolved in the rioting. The Jewish settlement in Hebron has not been "closed off", just extra security put in place to protect the settlers. (Like the Baruch Goldstein massacre, when 30 Arabs were murdered by another Hebron settler extremist. The Arab area was put under a 30 day curfew after that incident)
Interesting quote from the Israeli justice minister: Justice Minister Meir Sheetrit said Monday that Hebron settlers who were found guilty of attacking police officers would be severely dealt with, Israel Radio reported
"We will deal with them with a heavy hand," said Sheetrit.
That suggests those 4 arrests were for attacking the police, not murdering Palestinians.
There is a long record of the Jewish settlers in Hebron attacking the Arab residents, under the protection of the IDF.
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There was show on Dateline, 60 minutes or one of those news shows a couple of months back where they interviewed one of the head guys from one of the "groups" doing the bombing.
Now, I'm doing this from memory (which isn't very good) and the interviewer posed the question (paraphrased)
Interviewer (paraphrased): IF Palistine was given its own country, AND all the other Arab/Muslim states agreed with the decision to give Palistine its own independantly governed country, would there be peace.
His Response (paraphrased): As long as Isreal exists, there will be no peace.
Now, tell me these f***ing people aren't nuts. Give 'em what they want, and they are still NOT happy. It isn't a matter of getting their own independantly governed country, they simply want to destroy Isreal. Period. The Isrealies are by no means angels, but how can you possible "negociate" a peace with a group of individual who think like that.
If anyone else saw this interview, please add or correct any errors.
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I didn`t see that interview,but I know that`s exactly what they want.
They`ll die trying...
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Now, tell me these f***ing people aren't nuts. Give 'em what they want, and they are still NOT happy. It isn't a matter of getting their own independantly governed country, they simply want to destroy Isreal. Period. The Isrealies are by no means angels, but how can you possible "negociate" a peace with a group of individual who think like that.
Which group?
The idea with extremists is to marginalise them.
For example, currently the Palestinians live under military occupation, with no political rights, and few legal rights. They are subject to curfews, land siezures, detention without trial etc.
Under those circumstances, they support the extremists with their "death to Israel" slogans.
Give the Palestinians a state, where they have a chance of a normal life, not subject to Israeli military law and the depradations of extremist settlers, and few of them will be interested in the extremist crying "death to Israel".
A proportion of the Palestinians, who were born inside Israel, not in the occupied territories, have Israeli citizenship, and therefore political rights and (almost) full legal rights. These Israeli Arabs, about 800,000 of them, do not engage in terrorism.
There were peace moves underway last week. The Tamzin, and Fatah were on the verge of launching a cease fire, and even Hamas was interested in joining in. Look for Sheik Yassin's speech of a few weeks ago. A truce might well hae been imminent.
The chairman of the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee, MK Haim Ramon. says he has documents showing Fatah were due to announce a cease fire within days.
Read this: http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=191005&contrassID=2&subContrassID=5&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y
Sharon new about these efforts, and went ahead and ordered a 2000lb bomb dropped on a block of apartments. Sound like he wants peace?
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Caligula, it isn't just me calling it a pogrom:
Col. (res.) Moshe Givati, an adviser on settlement security for Public Security Minister Uzi Landau, yesterday termed the rioting that took place during the funeral of Elazar Leibowitz, "a pogrom against the Arabs of Hebron, with no provocation on the Palestinian side."
Givati, who attended the funeral on Sunday, said he witnessed "brutal acts" and rejected absolutely explanations by the Jewish Community of Hebron Council spokesmen who said they were acting in self-defense against Palestinian stone-throwing.
Givati was in Hebron on Saturday night, in advance of the funeral for Leibowitz, an army first sergeant killed in a Palestinian ambush on Friday outside the city. The violence began already on Saturday night, he says, when a group of Jewish youths invaded a Palestinian house in the city, and burned and vandalized the possessions inside. Police and Border Patrol called to the scene arrested three of the youths, who included Leibowitz's brothers. They were released a few hours later
He said that "the Palestinians did not throw any rocks or boulders at the funeral procession. There were 20 or 30 people, who were mostly not from Hebron," he said. He said he suspects most are from the outposts in the area of Itamar and Yitzhar. "For some reason they were all carrying army-issue weapons, and they charged into the Palestinian houses.
"That's when the fracas began. I saw everything from very close range. There were long bursts of fire by the Israelis - into the air and at the houses."
It was during that fire that 14-year-old Nibin Jamjum was killed by a bullet to her head, and a Palestinian boy was stabbed. IDF sources say that these two and the other wounded - 15 Palestinians in all were reported wounded, and an equal number of police were hurt - were casualties of the Jewish violence. "Dozens of thugs, including youths from Hebron, burst into Arab houses for no reason. They broke windows, destoryed property and threw stones. These people were there for the purpose of making a pogrom," said Givati.
Soldiers, police and Border Patrol troops who arrived on the scene tried to arrest the rioters, but were attacked. "Police officers were beaten," Givati said. "I am an alumnus of the first intifada and I never saw anything like this. A dozen thugs knocked down a policeman and kicked at him."
Givati believes the police and army "were too restrained. Considering the events, much more force should have been used. We cannot allow such harm to the rule of law. It's inconceivable that soldiers and police be cursed that way." He said that settlement leaders from outside the Hebron area were also shocked by the level of violence displayed by the settlers in Hebron.
All from Ha'aretz. BTW, the four arrested settlers have now been released.
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Originally posted by Nashwan
_____________________________ _________________
Which group?
_____________________________ _________________
Again, as I posted, my memory isn't that great so i don't remember the group.
_____________________________ _____________________
For example, currently the Palestinians live under military occupation, with no political rights, and few legal rights. They are subject to curfews, land siezures, detention without trial etc.
Under those circumstances, they support the extremists with their "death to Israel" slogans.
_____________________________ _______________________
Exactly my point. When given the question about having their OWN, INDEPENDENTLY controlled country (i.e. they the palistinians run it) AND all other Mulslim countries supported it, they still would want to destroy Isreal.
"As long as Isreal exists, there can be no peace" Seems pretty cut and dry to me.
And as my disclaimer, I'm reciting from memory so if anyone has corrections please post...
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Nashwan
It is very sad indeed,but it`s still an isolated incident,while the palestinians do or try to do something awfull every day.
There would be no curfews if terror attacks would stop.
Now restrictions are lifted in many pal towns...I bet there will be some major attacks in the next couple days.One amazinhunk already snuck in a settlement and stabbed a man.
Than curfews will return and they will whine again....
Jewish extremists must be cracked down on too,but so far they cause lot less trouble and harm to others than the palestinians.
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Originally posted by Nashwan
Give the Palestinians a state, where they have a chance of a normal life, not subject to Israeli military law and the depradations of extremist settlers, and few of them will be interested in the extremist crying "death to Israel".
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How do you know that? I mean, its a nice theory and all, but frankly, the arab track record in this area aint exactly spotless.
Why should we trust the arabs with a Palestinian state now? Is there any reason whatsoever to assume that they will respect Israel this time around? Wishful thinking Nashwan...based on some idealistic notion that all people are good inside. Naive. Dangerous.
A proportion of the Palestinians, who were born inside Israel, not in the occupied territories, have Israeli citizenship, and therefore political rights and (almost) full legal rights. These Israeli Arabs, about 800,000 of them, do not engage in terrorism.
[/b]
And how many of them would prefer to be living in a Palestinian state where there were no Israel at all? And what do you really know about the motivations and desires of these 800 000 arabs? The only reason they do not engage in terrorism as much as their arab brethren in the west bank and gaza is because they are kept under a very watchful eye. Again, wishful thinking Nashwan. Naive. Dangerous.
There were peace moves underway last week. The Tamzin, and Fatah were on the verge of launching a cease fire, and even Hamas was interested in joining in. Look for Sheik Yassin's speech of a few weeks ago. A truce might well hae been imminent.
The chairman of the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee, MK Haim Ramon. says he has documents showing Fatah were due to announce a cease fire within days.
Sharon new about these efforts, and went ahead and ordered a 2000lb bomb dropped on a block of apartments. Sound like he wants peace?
Ah yes, the Israelis want war, not peace. If nothing else, history shows that...uh..no wait.
Anyway, the Israelis used a bomb to kill a terrorist leader. The bomb caused collateral damage. Good job on the terrorist leader, too bad about the collateral damage.
There would have been no collateral damage if the terrorist leaders did not try to hide amog civilians. If they were concerned with civilian casualties, they would not set up their bases inside refugee camps or in appartment buildings, they would hide in caves.
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Let's take a next step:
Killing childrens is okay. Now they're playing with wooden guns but in 10 years they will have a Galil or AK-47 in their hands. Why wait 10 years when you can kill them right now ?
Collateral damage my ass...
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Collateral damage... What a discriminating word...
They fired an air- to-surface missile on a six-level civilian buildings which was full of innocent people, including women and little children, in order to kill one terrorist.
Its like if the police shoots with a flamethrower in a crowd of civilians on the street because one of the persons in this crowd was a searched terrorist.
And then the responsibles really stoods up and tell that they are sorry that there have been civilian and innocent losses.
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Staga:
The method you are describing is the standard terrorist method of attack. Target women and children directly to cause maximum damage.
Babek:
A more valid analogy would be if a US warplane dropped a bomb on a cave where they thought OBL was hiding together with a bunch of civilians. And of cource the responsible ones are sorry that alot of civilians died in the attack. Soldiers do not go to war against women and children, that is what terrorists do.
Both of you:
Whine all you want. Fact remains, the Israelis used a bomb to kill a terrorist leader. The bomb caused collateral damage. Good job on the terrorist leader, too bad about the collateral damage.
There would have been no collateral damage if the terrorist leaders did not try to hide among civilians. If they were concerned with civilian casualties, they would not set up their bases inside refugee camps or in appartment buildings, they would hide in caves.
It is pathetic to see how the pals are playing the media and suckering in feebleminded people like you two. Set up a bomb factory in a refugee camp. If the Israelis attack it there are bound to be civilians getting hit too = tv pictures of dead palestinians = whining bastards in Europe crying their little hearts out over the innocent victims. Best part is that if the bomb maker screws up and blows himself up (which has happened from time to time) blame the Israelis = tv pictures of dead palestinians = whining bastards in Europe crying their little hearts out over the innocent victims.
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how many died with the bomb?
14? of which 9 were kids, not clear on what the other 5 were? Relatives/buddies of hunted terrorist?? dunno
now what if Israel dropped troops, brought in tanks to "arrest" this murdering terrorist? How many innocents would be killed then? 14 sounds low to me when you consider the alternative. Or should they have just let the terrorist continue to plan the murder of their citizens??
:rolleyes:
I think if the US knew 100% that a known leading murdering terrorist ring leader thug (Obin and like) was in a building and we didn't kill him, our media/dumbocrats would try to fry this admin. Then again if we got him and killed 14 innocents to get him, the media/dumbocrats would fry this admin. Dam if they do, dam if they don't ... at least one way the target is eliminated.
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IMO the point is : how can the Isrealy pretend they are the smart guys if the behave exactly the same ?
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Originally posted by straffo
IMO the point is : how can the Isrealy pretend they are the smart guys if the behave exactly the same ?
The day Israeli soldiers strap on explosive belts and walk up to palestinian women with baby carriages to blow themselves up THEN they would be behaving exactly the same.
There is a difference between using the military to kill terrorists and using terrorists to kill civilians. There still is a difference even if the military happens to kill innocent civilians in the process.
The difference is that between explicitly targeting civilians (a crime), and causing civilian casualties while targeting valid military targets (collateral damage).
One is accepted, the other is not.
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When the Palestinians lay down their arms there will be no more violence.
When the Israelis lay down their arms there will be no more Israel.
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sure steve ...
But as this conflict is longuer and longer ...
I don't believe anymore in a politcal solution coming from one side or the other ...
It just becoming a "routine" no side is making any move toward peace...and as I'm now fed up of this mass killing (from both side )
I've found the solution : I don't follow the news anymore
I let both side doing what they do the best : killing each other.
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Reading this here (much of it emotive dribble); I wonder what your collective learned responses would have been should Her Majesty's forces have deemed it oppertune to launch an air strike against Gerry Adams house?
And yes, we also have experience with bomb disposal and stone throwing. Most of the bombs were American financed.
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Why should we trust the arabs with a Palestinian state now? Is there any reason whatsoever to assume that they will respect Israel this time around? Wishful thinking Nashwan...based on some idealistic notion that all people are good inside. Naive. Dangerous.
No, it's based on the conservative notion that people act out of self interest.
The more you've got, the less likely you are to risk it.
If Hamas tell an unemployed man, living in a refugee camp, at risk of being evicted any time a group of Israelis decide they want more land, "Follow us and we will defeat the Jews", he's quite likely to follow them.
Try the same trick on a man with a job, house, family and some measure of security, and he'll tell you where to go.
And how many of them would prefer to be living in a Palestinian state where there were no Israel at all? And what do you really know about the motivations and desires of these 800 000 arabs? The only reason they do not engage in terrorism as much as their arab brethren in the west bank and gaza is because they are kept under a very watchful eye. Again, wishful thinking Nashwan. Naive. Dangerous.
I suspect they want what most people want, better housing, schools,more more, better job etc.
As to them not engaging in terrorism because they are closely watched: Israeli Arabs have far more opportunity for terrorism than Palestinians. They are not watched as closely as the people in the territories.
All an Israeli Arab would have to do to launch a suicide attack is drive his car into a crowd at a bus stop, or buy a gun and go on a shooting spree.
There is simply no support for terrorism amongst them.
There would have been no collateral damage if the terrorist leaders did not try to hide amog civilians. If they were concerned with civilian casualties, they would not set up their bases inside refugee camps or in appartment buildings, they would hide in caves.
You don't know much about the Gaza strip, do you? The population density is approx 3300 people per sq km. That's about 1.5 times the population density of the Vatican. It's also about 30 times the pop density of Northern Ireland, and the IRA never took to hiding in caves, or anywhere else in the countryside either. (Mind you, Britain never took to using aircraft to bomb civilians)
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Yeah, but then again, what the Brits had to endure from the IRA is nothing like what the Israelis have had to endure from the arabs. And times change. The brits used SAS to track down and sometimes take out IRA leaders. The Israelis do the same thing with the arabs, their kills are not always as surgical as the brits were.
Take a look at the 9-11 hijackers. Lots of family fathers, with good education, good work, good living in western-oriented countries. These people do not think the same way we do. It is wrong to assume that. Naive. Dangerous.
Take a look at the latest wave of suicide bombers. Family fathers, people with high education, with jobs, with "good" family ties.
People act out of self interest most of the time. But you forget to add into that equation, that some peoples self interest involves killing others.
These people do not think the same way we do. It is wrong to assume that. Naive. Dangerous.
As for the gaza strip. You know full well that most of that population is concentrated in the towns and cities, with lots of rural "wasteland". Or is this where you are going to tell me that those people are spread out evenly 3300 people per square km?
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Hortlund: " These people do not think the same way we do. It is wrong to assume that. Naive. Dangerous. "
Do you know that here in Germany some decades ago the Nazis said the same about the jewish people ?
"The subhumans of the jewish race are not like us. They are not thinking like we do. They are dangerous parasites who are inflicting damage to the german people. So we have the right to eliminate them. Like a hygienical operation for a better world."
Do you see the similiarities of the Nazi-nonsense and your statement?
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Originally posted by babek-
Hortlund: " These people do not think the same way we do. It is wrong to assume that. Naive. Dangerous. "
Do you know that here in Germany some decades ago the Nazis said the same about the jewish people ?
"The subhumans of the jewish race are not like us. They are not thinking like we do. They are dangerous parasites who are inflicting damage to the german people. So we have the right to eliminate them. Like a hygienical operation for a better world."
Do you see the similiarities of the Nazi-nonsense and your statement?
Not really.
Because they are thinking differently. But what is the big deal with that? Every culture has its own morals and values. Or is this where you are going to tell us all that there is no difference between a western european factory worker, a chinese peasant, an arab terrorist or a brazilian indian? These people (terrorists and terrorist sympathizers) value other things than we do, they fear other things than we fear, the are capable of things we are not capable of. To assume that they think the way we do, value the things we value, fear the things we fear is wrong, misleading, naive and ultimately dangerous.
But if you are trying to call me a nazi, get in line I think there are three of you now on this board. Perhaps you could start a club or something.
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@Hortlund
You are justifiing actions against other humans with the argument that this specific group is different and dangerous and not thinking the same way like us.
Its the same way the Nazis told my ancestors why there had to be actions against defined groups like the jews, the homosexuals or the gipsies.
And such a behavior is the really danger - because it can change humans into monsters.
As the Nazis has proved some decades ago and as many other people and governments show us still today.
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Originally posted by babek-
@Hortlund
You are justifiing actions against other humans with the argument that this specific group is different and dangerous and not thinking the same way like us.
Eh, no I havent justified any action against any human with that statement. I have simply said that there really is no reason to trust these people considering what they have done in the past, and what they still are doing.
Nashwan is trying to say that if we give them a country they will stop murdering innocent Israeli civilians. I'm just saying that we have no reason to believe that, and you cannot make comparrisons to us in the western civilization, because just because we think in one way, that doesnt mean that everyone does.
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Hortland; the Neo-Pharisee.
Jesus wept.
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As for the gaza strip. You know full well that most of that population is concentrated in the towns and cities, with lots of rural "wasteland". Or is this where you are going to tell me that those people are spread out evenly 3300 people per square km?
The Gaza Strip is 3 - 5 miles wide. It contains about a dozen Palestinian towns and refugee camps, 25 Israeli settlements and several militay bases.
If you look at a detailed map, you'll see it's impossible to get more than 1.5 miles from any built up area. You can't set up a guerilla camp 1.5 miles away from a town, it's too easily spotted.
Take a look at the 9-11 hijackers. Lots of family fathers, with good education, good work, good living in western-oriented countries. These people do not think the same way we do. It is wrong to assume that. Naive. Dangerous.
Look at Timothy McVeigh. These people do not think the way we do.
There are nutters eveywhere. Remove the support fom the nutters, and they are less effective.
Take a look at the latest wave of suicide bombers. Family fathers, people with high education, with jobs, with "good" family ties.
The vast majoity of the Palestinian suicide bombers have been young men, in their teens or twenties.
Suicide bombing has now become a way to povide fo a family in the territoies, with Saudi Arabia and Iraq giving money to the families of the attacker.
It's one of the few ways to get money. Unemployment is ove 50%, and a US government aid agency repot says 50% of Palestinian children are suffering fom malnutrition, with 20% suffering acute malnutition, stunted growth and health problems.
People act out of self interest most of the time. But you forget to add into that equation, that some peoples self interest involves killing others.
Everyone's self interest involves killing others. Mankind's history is a long tale of killing other people to get their land/cattle/money/possesions.
What stops people from doing it all the time is fear of losing what they've got. The more they've got, the less they want to risk it.
It's no coincidence that as countries become richer, they're less likely to go to war. (not one they can lose, anyway)
Nashwan is trying to say that if we give them a country they will stop murdering innocent Israeli civilians. I'm just saying that we have no reason to believe that, and you cannot make comparrisons to us in the western civilization, because just because we think in one way, that doesnt mean that everyone does.
We have no reason not to believe it.
The Egyptians signed a deal with Israel, and have kept to it.
The Jordanians signed a deal with Israel, and have kept to it.
Every Arab country Israel has done a land fo peace deal with has kept it. The Palestinians who are fotunate enough to find themselves with Israeli citizenship have not tried to attack Israel.
The only Arabs Israel has a problem with ae those it's siezed land from.
It seems rather twisted logic to say holding on to that land is the best path to peace, when history has shown otherwise.
This isn't about security for Israel, it's about Greater Israel, achieved by taking land from the Palestinians.
There's never been a peacefull ethnic cleansing. It's silly to expect the Palestinians to go quietly, when no other group ever has.
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Suicide bombing has now become a way to povide fo a family in the territoies, with Saudi Arabia and Iraq giving money to the families of the attacker.
thank you nashwan,just the best example of how different these people`s minds work.
Do You think in any western country the slogen "make your child blow himself up ,and get $25000" would fly?
I don`t think so..
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Nashwan, I suppose it all comes down to whether we trust the Pals or not.
You might be right when you say that if we give them a country of their own, they will cool down and live in peace. I dont have all the answers. I have my own personal opinion though, but that is just me.
Setting all practical matters aside (you know that I dont think there will ever be a peace settlements between the pals and the Israelis, there are too many "unsolveables") I dont think they will settle with what the Israelis are able to give them. And they have done nothing to earn my trust either. The Intifada-way is a sure way for them to never get a country their own at all.
IF they would call off this senseless violence. If they would cease the terrorist attacks, if they would lay down their arms and live in peace for 2-3-4-5 years, THEN I will reconsider.
As it is right now, the Israelis cannot back off, they cannot take a step back and lower their guard. It is simply too dangerous. Especially with the war against Iraq coming soon.
If this means that the Pals will continue with the terrorist attacks, then more people will die on both sides, both guilty ones and innocents.
But the Israelis cannot take the first step back in this conflict. It is that plain and that simple.
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As it is right now, the Israelis cannot back off, they cannot take a step back and lower their guard. It is simply too dangerous.
But the Israelis cannot take the first step back in this conflict. It is that plain and that simple.
There are two different Israeli campaigns going on.
One is the security campaign, like blowing up the Hamas leader. They can't afford to stop that.
The second is the settlement campaign.
It doesn't contribute to security, even the IDF says defending the settlements takes so many men the rest of Israel is vulnerable.
The settlements are not part of the securiy campaign. They are simply a process of taking more land, and expanding the borders of Israel.
The settlements cause violence. Taking someone's land away, especially with no compensation, is likely to drive them to violence, if they no legal recourse. The Palestinians have no effective legal recourse.
What Israel should do, is announce an end to the settlements. That would send a message to the Palestinians that independence is possible, if they behave.
The current message sent to the Palestinians is behave, and we will continue taking your land until you have nothing left.
If the Israeli government wanted peace, they would end the settlements whilst continuing security operations. Instead they (successive governments since the 70s) have continued to expand the settlements, whilst calling for peace.
There is no way out of the violence until Israel commits itself to an independant Palestinian state on the West Bank and Gaza. That state shouldn't be set up immediately, but as soon as Israel calls off the colonisation, the situation will improve.
It doesn't look like enough people have died for the governments to accept that compromise yet though.
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I agree (believe it or not).
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But...the problem is the peace deal. I honestly dont think the conflict will/can be solved until there has been another war in the region.
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Blast Rocks Jerusalem University :rolleyes:
freakin murders, oh yeah let's give them what they want, they earned it, they have proven themselves to be global partners, upright citizens of the worlds.. freakin murders..
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"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Surah 48:29)
"The Day of Resurrection will not arrive until the Moslems make war against the Jews and kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: 'Oh Moslem, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'" (Sahih Bukhari 004.52.176)
It is a 'divine' commandment to persecute Jews and Christians, to defeat them in battle and then to consign them either to slavery or to death (Surah 8:39; 9:5,29: 47:4).
9:29, Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
9:39, Unless ye go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least.
It always start with jews, but it never ends with jews.
P.
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:rolleyes:
just a little closer and I think one bullet will be able to take out both pieces of trash
(http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20020731/i/1028117271.2885820497.jpg)
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Originally posted by Eagler
:rolleyes:
just a little closer and I think one bullet will be able to take out both pieces of trash
(http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20020731/i/1028117271.2885820497.jpg)
Don't you feel the world is a safer place to live knowing these two are on the job?
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who is it ? (I know Arafat but the guy on the left )
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Originally posted by straffo
who is it ? (I know Arafat but the guy on the left )
he be the "reverend" jesse " let me pregnate my help, while screwing big business out of millions using racial blackmail" jackson ... one of "religous" black leaders :rolleyes:
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never heard of him ...
must be one of your internal "desease" :)