Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: senna on July 30, 2002, 04:29:00 AM
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I have a question, has there ever been Pearl Harbor snapshot scenario? This would really be interesting. I thought of this recently after seeing the movie again and again and again on DVD and watching Ben Affleck save the world in his P-40 gave me the idea of a Pearl Harbor scenario. I guess there would be two possibilities. The first being the historic scenario and the second being with CVs at harbor or nearby the attack. Would be very interesting to see how things unfolded. Would HT be able to divide up the fleet in such a way to make this scenario possible. Now that we basically have the required early war plane set its doable.
Any comments would be appreciated, thnx...
:D
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Oops meant to put this one up. srry.
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Cool! So who gets to play the part of the sexy nurse? :D Would any pilot from the FDBs do?
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How could we simulate that surprise?:D
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Possibly by restricting the number of Allied aircraft allowed in the air before the Japanese arrive, the only US planes I can see being allowed up would be the unarmed B17s (now that would be a challenge....)
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Doesnt it sound hopelessly boring? 200 something japanese planes diving in on a fleet in port and an airfield, vulching the toejam out of the airfield, and blowing the fleet off the face of the planet (oh, yeah, we would have to disable ack for the first wave too).
What would the americans do? Apart from trying to up from a rediculously vulched field that is.
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Well, I think you just got all the Bishops interested...
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Yeah, but where are we going to get a row of VLS 963 class destroyers?
Come to think of it, they should have lit off fire control; could have taken out most of the air armada in a matter of minutes. If they ran out of white birds they just put the '48 in burn through mode and cook the pilots in their cockpits.
Final Countdown scenario, anyone? We could use the LA7 as a replacement for the F14s...
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I bet we will have a Pearl Harbor event. We now have most of the planes.
This is a great scenario, as I flew this event 3 times in Air Warrior.
Bring it on!!!
ATC
The Damned MKX
(http://www.damned.org/images/ddemo1.gif)
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Actually . ..
We ran a PEARL HARBOR SCENARIO in Air Warrior 2 years in a row ! The scenario was 6 Frames with the US and IJN Sides trading spots between Frames #3 and #4. We had a SET Number pilots flying just ZEKES that did not switch sides so that the IJN Side always had a numbers advantage.
The concessions we made were as follows.
Frame #1 the US could take off ONLY AFTER CON ID'swere spotted. We did allow just 3 C47's up as scouts but they were restricted to within the shoreline of Pearl.
Frame #2 the US could take off at T+30 regardless of when the IJN Showed up.
Frame #3 they could take off at T+0 AND they had 1 Carrier come into play.
Yes is was not 100% Historically Accurate but all involved - 200+ per frame - thourghly enjoyed themselves.
Also I was the the CO that WON Both as US CO and IJN CO both time in 1999 and 2000.
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"We ran a PEARL HARBOR SCENARIO in Air Warrior 2 years in a row ! The scenario was 6 Frames with the US and IJN Sides trading spots between Frames #3 and #4. We had a SET Number pilots flying just ZEKES that did not switch sides so that the IJN Side always had a numbers advantage. "
There goes Jordi living in the past again.....
Jordi, a true multi frame format is for simmers; it's long, hard and complicated.
Do you really think that sort of thing would go down here?
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vehicle/plane set for PH event;
USS Nevada,TBM,F4F,J2F,jeep,B-17,PBY,firetugs,submarines,pt boats,and lots of japanise planes
sorry no P-40s were in the fight look at the Hitory channels presentation on the truth of pearl harbor it says all the planes were f4f tbm some sbds
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sorry no P-40s were in the fight look at the Hitory channels presentation on the truth of pearl harbor it says all the planes were f4f tbm some sbds
Well then, just what exactly were Danny and Rafe...ehmm... I mean Taylor and Welch flying from that remote Army field?
Charon
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Originally posted by Seeker
Do you really think that sort of thing would go down here?
If you are asking ME - Yes I do.
[/B]
I was twitching when I read the format of 18 FRAMES !
I wisely choose NOT to participate since I was in the middle of my Midway Design at that point. I think I did walkon for a few frames.
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Hortlund wrote something like
Doesnt it sound hopelessly boring? 200 something planes diving in on a fleet in port and an airfield, vulching the toejam out of the airfield, and blowing the fleet off the face of the planet ....
What would the (other side) do? Apart from trying to up from a ridiculously vulched field that is.
Just another day in Knightland trying to save the last 4 bases we have standing....
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Originally posted by oboe
Well, I think you just got all the Bishops interested...
LOL!
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Originally posted by jordi
Yes is was not 100% Historically Accurate but all involved - 200+ per frame - thourghly enjoyed themselves.
Sadly this rules out the SEA arena for right now - hope they get it fixed soon. Was a fun AW event though.
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Well if not Pearl Harbor, for sure Battles of Coral Sea and/or Midway.
-AlgyFT
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Longbow was awesome . I forget how many months long it was .
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Originally posted by CDR Akira
sorry no P-40s were in the fight look at the Hitory channels presentation on the truth of pearl harbor it says all the planes were f4f tbm some sbds
You should read more books, and watch less History Channel. I would suggest the book "Aces Against Japan" for starters.
-Sikboy
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Originally posted by Biggles
Well if not Pearl Harbor, for sure Battles of Coral Sea and/or Midway.
-AlgyFT
We just had a kick bellybutton (except for technical problems) tour of duty in the Friday TOD.
-Sikboy
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Originally posted by CDR Akira
vehicle/plane set for PH event;
USS Nevada,TBM,F4F,J2F,jeep,B-17,PBY,firetugs,submarines,pt boats,and lots of japanise planes
sorry no P-40s were in the fight look at the Hitory channels presentation on the truth of pearl harbor it says all the planes were f4f tbm some sbds
Not only were there P-40s in the fight (Welch and Taylor had 6 confirmed kills between them), but some P-36 Hawks were also involved. Both pilots received the DFC personally from Gen. Hap Arnold, and had an audience with President Roosevelt.
I suspect that even the History Channel didn't screw it up that bad. I figure you simply misunderstood what was being presented.
Some SBDs did blunder into the fight arriving from U.S. carriers. Indeed, some F4F-3s were fired on by tripleA later in the day when they too flew in from the carriers. However, the vast majority, if not all fighters that got airborne on 12/7/41 were USAAF.
I suggest the following for reading on the topic:
Dr. William Wolf, 'Aerial Action... Pearl Harbor Attack',
American Aviation Historical Society Journal, Spring 1989.
Al Blackburn, 'Aces Wild: The Race for Mach 1', Scholarly Resources, 1999.
Walter Lord, 'Day of Infamy', Holt, Rinehart & Winston, 1957.
Gordon W. Prange, 'At Dawn We Slept', McGraw-Hill, 1981.
Len Deighton, 'Blood, Tears and Folly', HarperCollins, 1993.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
I suggest the following for reading on the topic:
Dr. William Wolf, 'Aerial Action... Pearl Harbor Attack',
American Aviation Historical Society Journal, Spring 1989.
Al Blackburn, 'Aces Wild: The Race for Mach 1', Scholarly Resources, 1999.
Walter Lord, 'Day of Infamy', Holt, Rinehart & Winston, 1957.
Gordon W. Prange, 'At Dawn We Slept', McGraw-Hill, 1981.
Len Deighton, 'Blood, Tears and Folly', HarperCollins, 1993.
My regards,
Widewing
Know your audience Widewing. I specifically chose "Aces against Japan" because of the short autobiographical format. It's ideal for those with short attention spans. :)
-Sikboy
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Well excuse me for being human
I just watched it myself I'm sorry:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Biggles
Well if not Pearl Harbor, for sure Battles of Coral Sea and/or Midway.
-AlgyFT
No Pearl Harbor??!! heaven forbid we have a more evenly-matched battle such as Coral Sea or Midway! Without PH we Bish's won't be able to do that vulching thingummy that everyone knows is the only thing we love to do! lol
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>Doesnt it sound hopelessly boring? 200 something japanese >planes diving in on a fleet in port and an airfield, vulching the >shit out of the airfield, and blowing the fleet off the face of the >planet (oh, yeah, we would have to disable ack for the first >wave too).
>
>What would the americans do? Apart from trying to up from a >rediculously vulched field that is.
Essentially, but I'm guessing that there is a possibility for failure on the Japanese side in terms of mission accomplished or not. The American side would be able to man the ground and ship antiaircraft defenses or various types. They would also try to roll at the airfileds if possible, some made it into the air. Then there are the B17s that were trying to land. US goal would simply be to thwart the attack and defend as best possible and Japanese side would be to achieve swift victory then retreat.
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Originally posted by CDR Akira
Well excuse me for being human
I just watched it myself I'm sorry:rolleyes:
Sorry, I didn't mean to sound condencending.
Nothing personal was intended. As I said, I believe that you merely misunderstood what they said. Of course, the History Channel is well know for presenting the worst scholarship and offering it as factual. I suggest that you view the History Channel as entertainment and not rely upon it too much.
Try a few of the books I suggested. Most can be found in a public library, some even on cassette tape and/or CD, great for listening to when driving or working around the home.
And yes, Aces Against Japan is a good primer, and its author/publisher, Eric Hammel, is an especially nice fellow.
My regards,
Widewing
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Jordi:
Well let's do it, what are we waiting for? The right colour water, or confirmation that Pyro's modelled the correct type of gas?
WideWing:
You're a gem. I thouroughly enjoyed your contribution to these boards before you were a player; and continue to do so now you're a player. However, now that you are a mere player (instead of being a remote authority figure as Tony Williams as wisely chosen to be); lighten the diddly up dude! Go fly a Niki or something and tell us about how much fun you had!
( but don't drop the website; 'K?)
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Gordon W. Prange, 'At Dawn We Slept', McGraw-Hill, 1981.
Walter Lord, 'Day of Infamy', Holt, Rinehart & Winston, 1957.
Widewing
Two excellent books on the attack.
Charon
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Originally posted by Seeker
Jordi:
Well let's do it, what are we waiting for? The right colour water, or confirmation that Pyro's modelled the correct type of gas?
WideWing:
You're a gem. I thouroughly enjoyed your contribution to these boards before you were a player; and continue to do so now you're a player. However, now that you are a mere player (instead of being a remote authority figure as Tony Williams as wisely chosen to be); lighten the diddly up dude! Go fly a Niki or something and tell us about how much fun you had!
( but don't drop the website; 'K?)
Damn Seeker, you know I hate Nikis!
My regards,
Widewing
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I volunteer to stay on the ground and get the nurses bombed. :p
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Originally posted by Seeker
Jordi:
Well let's do it, what are we waiting for? The right colour water, or confirmation that Pyro's modelled the correct type of gas?
Well - we already have BoB then 2 more scenarios in the works. Best bet would be sometime after that.
I have to agree with the others - until the SE Arena is FIXED running LARGE Scenarios will not be an ejoyable experience for most involved.
Once it is FIXED - well then it is a different story !
Jordi
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the map is finished:) I just have to add the ships at the docks in the correct place.
Easy to add the eliment of surprise.
We put in 4 "pearl Harbors" and the allied won't know which one is being attacked. Allies cannot "up" until a plane is spotted from a tower ( which can be placed as lookouts on each island)
going to be alot of ship gunners:)
(http://www.graphixone.net/images/pearl.jpg)
NUTTZ
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WTG nuttz. See I knew it would be a great idea.
:)
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Sounds good NUTTZ. I was wondering how you are going to set up the ships. I am assuming you are just using our regular ships, just wanted to know if they can be docked or if they have to be in motion. I dont have a clue how you guys create the maps and such so if dont mind filling me in I would appreciate it.:) Keep up the good work and I cant wait for this one.
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Well I'm not on the CM team, so they may have something in the works. Just because i have a map made doesn't mean it will be used.
IF the ships are placed as objects, they will not be able to move. Also they won't be any manable guns on ships placed as an object. Theres 2 ways around this, you can place mannable acks somewhere on the ship objects and assign them to a feild. that way the static ships can be gunned and the guns can be destroyed.
You could also assign some ships as a CV group ( minus the CV) and THEY will be able to be moved and gunned. So a combination of both would probably be more realistic.
NUTTZ
Originally posted by Slash27
Sounds good NUTTZ. I was wondering how you are going to set up the ships. I am assuming you are just using our regular ships, just wanted to know if they can be docked or if they have to be in motion. I dont have a clue how you guys create the maps and such so if dont mind filling me in I would appreciate it.:) Keep up the good work and I cant wait for this one.
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Thanks NUTTZ. Are the ships able to be controlled as far as getting under way from a dead stop, speed, ect.? And if there is somwhere that explains all this let me know so I dont have to bother you with all this:D
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Originally posted by Seeker
Jordi:
Well let's do it, what are we waiting for? The right colour water, or confirmation that Pyro's modelled the correct type of gas?
Kelly would be the only designer I'd like to put this scenario into action :)
It just wouldn't be the same without him
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What, am I the only one who thinks a Pearl-scenario is an insanely bad idea? There are hundreds of other battles in the pacific that would be really fun and interesting to play..but Pearl?
A Pearl scenario would be just as pointless as a "First day of Barbarossa"-scenario (here comes 180 LW planes to vulch the toejam out of 80 Russians who have to sit in their aircraft on the ground on 5 fields). Or an "Operation Cobra"-scenario (Ok, the USAF gets 200 B-17s, and the Germans get 60 Panzers. The Panzers all have to sit with their engines off in a long straight line simulating the frontline, and then the B17s come in at 20k and bomb everything to bits)
Are all you guys bish in the MA or what? "Hey lets create a scenario that is insanely unbalanced in numbers, and where the side with the numbers gets to vulch the other."
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a contrario Midway would be an excelent scénario if we have proper fog of war
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Originally posted by straffo
a contrario Midway would be an excelent scénario if we have proper fog of war
During the TOD Coral SEA there was PLENTY of FOG OF WAR.
My squad flew Escort on 2 nights and Dive bomb on another. Waiting for almost an HOUR for the SCOUTS to find the enemy CV's - try to avoid the Enemy CAP and getting to the target was a NAIL BITER !
Midway is on our RADAR Screen for an Upcoming Scenario - IF THEY CAN FIX THE SE ARENA !
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good news jordy !
And it will help me complete my education (as an Yuropean I'm a bit ignorant for the PRO :))
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Originally posted by Hortlund
What, am I the only one who thinks a Pearl-scenario is an insanely bad idea? There are hundreds of other battles in the pacific that would be really fun and interesting to play..but Pearl?
A Pearl scenario would be just as pointless as a "First day of Barbarossa"-scenario (here comes 180 LW planes to vulch the toejam out of 80 Russians who have to sit in their aircraft on the ground on 5 fields). Or an "Operation Cobra"-scenario (Ok, the USAF gets 200 B-17s, and the Germans get 60 Panzers. The Panzers all have to sit with their engines off in a long straight line simulating the frontline, and then the B17s come in at 20k and bomb everything to bits)
Are all you guys bish in the MA or what? "Hey lets create a scenario that is insanely unbalanced in numbers, and where the side with the numbers gets to vulch the other."
Trust me - when it is set up CORRECTLY it is not an unbalanced Scenario.
Yes the US forces are outnumbered ( Heck those LW guys are used to that ! ) - BUT the IJN has to TIME THIER ATTACKS Perfectly to achieve Complete suprise.
Granted - the US Side KNOWS they are being attacked - but they do not know WHEN or WHERE.
What if that ZERO Attack on some airfields are LATE getting there - the US could already be airborne and waiting.
What If the US gets its bombers launched and goes out and tries to FIND the IJN CARRIERS ?
What if the US can recall its own carriers to join in the battle.
It is not as one sided as you may think.
There is a lot of strategy involved beyond the - Attack and sink all the battleships. There is timing of the attakcs - who goes in firs the Level Bombers, Dive Bombers, Torp planes ?
Yes there are Many other battles - but a lot of them are basicially the same - PEARL is different enough to make it challenging.
In Pearl 2000 I won as the IJN but just by a few bombs - the US Side almost pulled off a VICTORY !
Your Milage May Vary
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Hortland, substitute the word "scenario" with "re-inactment" and you might see the appeal this has for some. As I recall, WarBirds did this as a re-inactment and it was immensely popular. The US pilots were all required to spawn and disperse around the airfields, but to sit with engines off. Once the Japanese planes were sighted from the tower, the US pilots could scramble. I believe the two sides switched and it was run immediately a second time. It wasn't a question of winning or loosing...it was a chance to play a part in recreating a pivotal historical event. They also had an unarmed flight of B-17's arrive during the attack. They were required to shoot all their gun ammo before arriving, and their goal was simply to get on the ground, stop, and exit the plane before getting shot down or strafed.
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Do it! You would have to make it a little more difficult for the Torps (alas Wooden Fins). Go ahead and Vulch. You'll have to run out of ammo sometime. I'm game.
Hortlund, something tells me this isn't that bad to be on the US end of it. If I can land 7 vic's on a moving destroyer, I'll get at LEAST double that on a moored ship. Not as tough to lead for just a plane, as opposed to a plane and moving ship.
Masher
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Well, I suppose there could be a Pearl scenario somehow. I think that idea with the US planes dispersed and with engines off unil a jap plane can be seen from the tower is a brilliant idea. But to have 4 islands or something like that is just silly. How about this, you make an early Pac-war scenario.
Frame 1 -Pearl
(The americans will have an extremely boring time there, but anyway, it will be fun for all involved...scenarios always are)
Frame 2-4 Coral Sea
(So now things are starting to get interesting for both sides. If the Japs failed to destroy enough stuff at Pearl, the US side is reinforced with a battleship or two)
Frame 5-8 Midway
Depending on how Coral Sea and Pearl went, the Japs come with 2-4 carriers +BBs to invade Midway. Depending on how the US did at Pearl and Coral Sea, the US comes with 1-2 Carriers + land based fighters.
In a setup like that I think Pearl has a place, and it could be really fun. But to just do Pearl doesnt make sence to me.
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Good ideas all around guys.
NO ONE Person has the perfect Design.
I like the Idea below - we may steal it !
Personally I think a PEARL Scenario ( or whatever you want to call it ) is doable - given the right design.
Originally posted by Hortlund
Well, I suppose there could be a Pearl scenario somehow. I think that idea with the US planes dispersed and with engines off unil a jap plane can be seen from the tower is a brilliant idea. But to have 4 islands or something like that is just silly. How about this, you make an early Pac-war scenario.
Frame 1 -Pearl
(The americans will have an extremely boring time there, but anyway, it will be fun for all involved...scenarios always are)
Frame 2-4 Coral Sea
(So now things are starting to get interesting for both sides. If the Japs failed to destroy enough stuff at Pearl, the US side is reinforced with a battleship or two)
Frame 5-8 Midway
Depending on how Coral Sea and Pearl went, the Japs come with 2-4 carriers +BBs to invade Midway. Depending on how the US did at Pearl and Coral Sea, the US comes with 1-2 Carriers + land based fighters.
In a setup like that I think Pearl has a place, and it could be really fun. But to just do Pearl doesnt make sence to me.
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Originally posted by jordi
Trust me - when it is set up CORRECTLY it is not an unbalanced Scenario.
Yes the US forces are outnumbered ( Heck those LW guys are used to that ! ) - BUT the IJN has to TIME THIER ATTACKS Perfectly to achieve Complete suprise.
Granted - the US Side KNOWS they are being attacked - but they do not know WHEN or WHERE.
What if that ZERO Attack on some airfields are LATE getting there - the US could already be airborne and waiting.
What If the US gets its bombers launched and goes out and tries to FIND the IJN CARRIERS ?
What if the US can recall its own carriers to join in the battle.
It is not as one sided as you may think.
There is a lot of strategy involved beyond the - Attack and sink all the battleships. There is timing of the attakcs - who goes in firs the Level Bombers, Dive Bombers, Torp planes ?
Yes there are Many other battles - but a lot of them are basicially the same - PEARL is different enough to make it challenging.
In Pearl 2000 I won as the IJN but just by a few bombs - the US Side almost pulled off a VICTORY !
Your Milage May Vary
Absolutely the most immersive scenario I ever participated in... PEARL HARBOR !!!
My palms literally were sweating while waiting on the tarmac for the IJN to be spotted so we could lift off... The Second Pearl, I was IJN and my heart pounded as I rounded Diamond Head and saw the heavy flak and all those ships... It was just awsome.
I have literally dreamed of flying a Pearl Harbor Scenario in Aces High. PEARL, with the graphics of AH would just make it the Ultimate Scenario.
For those of you that have not had the opportunity to fly a Pearl Scenario... Just trust the ones of us that have... It can be the experience of a lifetime...