Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Apache on April 24, 2000, 01:05:00 PM
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We need to get a handle on this training arena problem. ( If one does exist, I don't go there ). Obviously there is a problem, or a perceived one. Reference this post, http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum2/HTML/000201.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum2/HTML/000201.html) .
Obviously we have a disgruntled individual who could possibly discourage new players. I for one want to see Aces High continue to grow. Without a consistent player base, that won't happen long.
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Apache
Renegade Nation (http://members.xoom.com/ApacheXL/index.htm)
"Abandon All Hope"
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I stated this in another related thread:
As for the Training Arena- yes there are problems. There has been quite a bit of discussion on the topic the last few days. Both sides have presented very compelling points. But, as in any argument, the truth probably lies in the middle. There needs to be a place where players can go for melee matches (perhaps H2H, SEA, or an arena separate from the existing ones). There needs to be a safe environment where new flyers are introduced to the game.
This last point is where we trainers have failed. We have not been able to control the atmosphere as we possibly should. I think we have all been sincere in our efforts, but the end result is the same. The best bet for a new person in the Training Arena is to set up a specific time with a trainer. Let the trainer take you to a remote base and help you there. The last thing a new guy needs to do is to pop into a base full of people flying overhead, because the new guy is going to get shot on the runway. To be fair to us (trainers) we are not there all the time, and the community needs to be able to police itself, too. I don't have "the" answer to this problem; if I did, you would have heard about it before now. All I am fearful of is that if we collectively can't find some way to make it work, we will lose it altogether. No one wins that way.
In that vein, let's put the fueds aside and try to find a way we can correct the problem together. I'm pointing the accusing finger back at myself and asking "What can I do to improve the situation?"
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Kieren....did U ever think about going into politics ?
You have my vote !
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But Kieren said exactly what needed to be said. We, the community of Aces High, need to address this problem as it now exists until HTC, as I understand, gives trainers admin. rights in the TA.
Salute Kieren for taking a leadership roll!
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Apache
Renegade Nation (http://members.xoom.com/ApacheXL/index.htm)
"Abandon All Hope"
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The last thing that any of us want is to damage/retard the growth of this game..er ..addiction. The strength of this sim has been the strength of community. I won't recap all my various posts here, but would like to restate a simple plea.
Training includes a lot more than flying, 99% of the time a little conversation quickly clears the air. I believe 90% of the people in the TA have a positive experience there.
Lets work on the 10% problem...not hose the 90% solution.
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Correct, and to clarify, we trainers have been discussing this on the trainer forum. We realize we have a problem and we are working for a solution. Still, it feels good that there is community concern and a desire for a solution.
I am not the leader (in fact, it took Sharky to slap me around a bit to see some things). (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) I know we all (community) will get it right. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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WTG kieren!
Frankly I don't spend much time there because of the attitude. If I want to get vulched on the runway I can get plenty of that in main.
What happened to the concept of a "Fair" fight? Where both opponants meet at the same alt with a straight cold guns merge?
I understand the desire for perfecting advanced ACM, but it needs to be in a controled envoirment.
Last thought, just because your in the majority, doesn't neccesarily make you right.
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You're doing it again Ghosth. Like I've said on those heated etiquette threads in the Help and Training forum, this so called "attitude" is so hardly present in the TA as to be irrelevant. You state yourself that you do not frequent the TA, so excuse me by going out on a limb here and suggesting that you don't exactly qualify as speaking from experience on this.
There's also a heckuhvalotta confusion which is just not, whats the word... neccessary. I guess. For example, you ask "What happened to the concept of a "Fair" fight? Where both opponants meet at the same alt with a straight cold guns merge?"
What happened to them? Erhm... They *still* go on. What is stopping two people from deciding to up at any of the 64 available fields (only one of which is a FFA field) and going at it? Indeed, I see people doing this all the time.
I've stated this case over on the other forum, but I feel the need to restate it here, as this kinda thing is gonna get seen by allot more people - and I'd hate for the TA to get tarnished unfairly any more than it already is.
And the instructors have been taking a beating as well, which is complete BS.
If anyone needs help - do NOT buy into this incendiary crap. Go to the TA. The instructors there (Kieren, humble, Funked to name a few) do a *remarkable* job there. In fact, I can't recall a time when an instructor wasn't present and willing to voluntarily give up his time to help out.
Someone will say "I need help". Right away an instructor whisks him off to another field, and there they train. Two other people decide to duel, and whammo they're off to another field to go at it.
What's the problem?
The TA is an invaluable part of Aces High. Lets not stink it up any more than it has been with the last couple of days of ranting by one or two malcontents. Frankly, I'm suprised that some of you older folk are buying into this nonsense.
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One or two malcontents? What a load of crap!
I started the original posting on training etiquette to discuss what has happened to me and to find out what the etiquette was - and, with the exception of kiernan, no one has stepped up to address this issue - especially hitechcreations (are you out there?) And yes, I have been back and it is not necessarily improving.
This is the first post I've had where I am starting to boil, I avoided this type of thing in the past to stay out of flame wars... but.
Sour
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Sourkraut
JG-2 Richthofen (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2)
"Hey - someone has to be the target...."
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/sour.jpg)
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Wasn't talking about you sourkraut. Yes, you have a legitimate concern, but that thread quickly degenerated into a completely overblown, out of context rant, which, no matter what yer experience, is NOT typical there. I'm worried about the impression this is giving to the newer AH flyers who may decide to avoid the TA because of it.
[This message has been edited by Nash (edited 04-25-2000).]
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HTC has looked at the problems they just dont post answer to evrything. They will come up with a fix for this problem.
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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
1st Aces High Trainer Corps.
Home of The Allied Fighter Wing A.F.W.
A.F.W. Homepage (http://www.geocities.com/~tltoon)
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There you have it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
To be fair, sourkraut, you were immediately answered by 4 trainers and an HTC admin. It's what the thread devolved into that I'm talking about. Here's a 5th trainer, Indian, saying that these things are being addressed.
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I love the TA the way it is.
I enjoy getting shot down, I only get vulched when someone is saying hello so i enjoy that too, I get back to the fight in 20 seconds, the TA has a different atmosphere than the MA. a much less frustrating atmosphere for sure.
no ones afraid to try a new trick, no one runs from a fight, dying means nothing with action so close and its in the spirit of learning, improvement and fun.
I love the duels against Av8r, nash, daddog, and all who enjoy the much more cheerful interaction the TA provides at the free for all field.
I have seen countless times a more experienced player gladly helping a new guy learn the ropes, questions get answered over the radio by mulltiple people in seconds.
I see these irrational condescending posts from names I never see in the TA who try it once and get vulched by a newbie who knows no better.
that and in the TA the newbie is gonna learn a lot more about flying the airplane without having to fly for 20 min to altitude then cruise around to find a fight, get bounced die, repeat. personally I never heard of anyone learning from the autopliot.
the key is to get in there and mix it up with all you got. see what tricks work for you and which do not. what planes do what? what tactics are best for this or that?
its not a formal lead by the hand at the free for all field but its just as good as going off with a trainer to practice 1 v 1 which... honestly is purely acedemic when talking about the main arena where 1 v 1 fights are the exception not the rule.
it seems some don't understand that in Aces High like real life flying, you are always learning somthing new no matter how much experience you have. In the MA you learn situational awareness and all that goes with the numbers game, then you get shot down or auger into the ground 3 times in row after a half hour long flight when you are mixing it up hard and dogfighting as best you can, get frustrated go to the TA and get right to the dogfight part where you had trouble and have a good time of it.
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"There are no born fighter pilots. Some are a little better than others, thats about it. But I would say time, training, training, training and more training are the key... to any success." -Francis Gabreski
Citabria
=357th Pony Express=
[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 04-25-2000).]
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The training arena is really helpful. Some people are willing to tell u what u do wrong when u engage them and how to overcome ur shortcomings.
Its a great addition.
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Why when I was a young pilot we had it real tough...
No TA...No trainers....No FW...
The most training I recieved in AH was Hristo saying "Next time fly it like a 109" after he shot me down on day 2.
Course we had unlimited WEP, and you could drop gear at any speed. We were really hoping for guns on the b17 some day...
I realise this has no relavence at all to the discussion except to point out to some of the newer people that this game evolves into what you want right befor your eyes..
State your concerns, offer some sugestions, critique others sugestions, and sit back and watch the magic...
I am sure that the only problem that HTC is having with this one is which of the many easy ways that they could improve on the problem do they choose.
Sounds like the trainers are earning their keep, <S> guys!
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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Ahhh yes, I remember my first expirence in flight sims back in november,good old beta. Take off follow a green guy till I saw a red guy, get shot down, repeat all night (red guys 18 Shamus 0).
Day two: (red guys 27 Shamus 0). Son inquires "ya shoot anybody down yet Pop hehehe". Yer room and board can be increased you know Trell (son shuts up and leaves room).
Day three: (red guys 3 Shamus..... hey wait somthing just fell off the back of that 51 and he's flying kinda funny like, Shamus killed *****, now that wasnt so hard (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Went into thr TA last night and even over a1 a lot of the older hands were flying drone for some of the newbies so's they could practice gunnery,(I was flying drone for Nash but thats another story) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
I think the TA is doing a fine job for the new guys and seems to self regulate quite nicly.
Shamus
The Fighting Meese
[This message has been edited by Shamus (edited 04-25-2000).]
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Pongo;
I had to laugh at your post, but not to mock you. I often remember those early days of AW. I simply had no clue of what to do and I was generally too embarassed to ask. The Beginners Arena there was empty almost all the time.
My flights consisted of:
- Take Off
- Turn left
- Fly 20 minutes
- Get shot down in 15 seconds
- Repeat
So...... Not much has changed. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I really have to agree with Citabria. FFA is and should have its place. IMO a total blast. Flight times are short, often 2 minutes or less to the action. No score is kept and you can try any thing out to see if it works. If it don't, your next fight is 2 minutes away. Addtionally, the best method of improving gunnery that I have found.
The only regret is that concerning the TA, it bleeds over to individuals wanting to stay out of it. This is one area that the vets of AH can contribute. Pass the word along! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
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One thing that helped alot in AW was that the Trainers and Arena Moderators had posted schedules. You could look at the schedule and see who was supposed to be where at any given time. That way you knew who to go to if you needed help in the arenas or you when to show up for "organized" training sessions.
Ex ...............
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I'm a certified newbie. I'm still in my 2 week trial period. If anybody is interested in a nuggets opinion here it goes. I went into the training arena and was promptly blasted out of the sky. I didn't get upset, I suspected that there was a good chance that I would be shot down at sometime in my AH career (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). I asked for help and was given excellent assistance on 2 different occasions (Thanks Mino and Kieren). After two training sessions I started hanging around at field 1 to jump into the free for all. There were many times that I was jumped by someone who had more E than myself. These were not fair fights, but what I learned many things from these fights. I found in the MA the enemy is rarely interested in ensuring that you get a fair fight. I was able to evade a few of these attacks and turn the tables on my opponent. Great training and a whole lot of FUN! This has been my experience in the TA. The MA for me has been confusion and frustration. Fly 20 min and die. I don't think there is a problem with the game, I just think I need more practice. I'm not exactly sure what is trying to be changed in the TA, so I can't honestly say I'm against it. I can just say that the TA the way it is has been very fun and educational.
Looking for a wingman,
Kutt
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<S!> Kutt. With this kind of attitude, you won't remain a 'newbie' for long. As far as what they are changing in the TA, I have no idea. To be honest, Indian's post kind of alarmed me. I think the TA is fine the way it is.
If they try to isolate the fighting from the teaching (seperate arenas, for example), they would be making a huge mistake, imho. Currently, instruction can and does take place unhindered at any field. If they make it more difficult to wander back to the FFA field (that's assuming they even let us KEEP the FFA field) in order to put theory into practice, a good 90% of the real education gets tossed out the window.
Indian, can ya give us any word on what you fine folks have in mind? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I think sour has a valid claim, and it was adressed by the trainers and the HTC crew. They'll come up with something I'm sure.
These are exceptions to the rule, done by mostly newbies who don't know what's going on and it's adressed pretty quickly most of the time. The trainers are doing a wonderfull job in there (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Bee
Pongo is right, the FFA issue in the training arena is a bit of a luxury problem. Most of us went through this without training arena (even the WB crowd had to adjust to the new FM). My first weeks in beta .33 where also of the take off fly 10 min get shot down type (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). Then you settle in get some help from the vets (leph, hollywd, etc) and learn the sim. Same happens now too.
I was in the TA a few days ago and was helping a newbie (harppa I think), and then went on to witness kieren train with kutt (they were on an off field and were not bothered at all). Guys like kutt don't stay newbie long... they get shot down, tough it up and get going again... If you realy like the game you stay (even if you get shot down alot in the beginning).
[This message has been edited by JENG (edited 04-25-2000).]
[This message has been edited by JENG (edited 04-25-2000).]
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Half the time there,s nothing to shoot at in the main, but ack wagons and pickup trucks. Devoting one field to furballing,in the TA, is not to much to ask IMHO.
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I spend alot of my time in the TA(not a trainer but try to help as much as I can) and there IS a problem but I think when the trainers have more control the problem will go away.
I've seen so called "Vets"(normally the same few guys) go into the TA just to pick on the new guys and don't seem to care if the new guys are having problems or not.
I think WW's post has some valid points but I also think that if he is going to quit because of the TA then he never planned on staying anyway.
I've heard several complaints about the FFA in the TA and how the trainers train but I feel that at some time the newbies have to learn what it's like to be in a FFA environment(as long as it is confined to a few bases).
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Mighty1
The New Baby Harp Seals
"Come try to club THIS Seal"
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I think that the Training Arena should have undamagable aircraft. Problem solved. It would be ideal if damage could be listed, but have no effect on aircraft performance.
Duels could be fought in the Special Events Arena.H
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Hmm... Let's see.... Uhmm..?....
Naaaahhh
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Well something got to give on this essue, and I think we would all agree, the need for new blood, and there need for training, should take precedence over just haveing fun.
I gave H2H a shot, and found that 8 guys is a pretty good size furball. Those of us that like it should do more hosting. Ill try to do so. I have cable and a fairly fast puter.
[This message has been edited by easymo (edited 04-26-2000).]
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I agree easymo... but something has already 'given' (nice word, huh? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ). An intro screen was implemented outlining a code of conduct, and we have just reached a consensus with the trainers regarding the establishment of an anything goes FFA field. Except for the odd infraction, I think this pretty much solves the problem, and this issue is as good as put ta bed.
Pyro et al, when ya get around to reflecting this on the intro screen , the deal is done (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Currently, A1 remains the FFA feild, as well as the source of confusion.
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I like the way TA is ran now as well. Flew in there last night and had a blast, I mean Citi and Fariz had a blast killing me. But hey I learned alot of new tricks and refreshed myself on some of the old ones. Something you really can't do in the main arena, also when ever a newbie came in with a question everyone jumped in to assist him. My feeling is TA is a place for the novice and experienced pilot to both learn, there is always someone with a better move then you (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) how else can you learn to counter it.
[This message has been edited by Cleaner (edited 04-27-2000).]
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Cleaner, if you learned from Fariz and Cita last night, then you have a good base. They are two of the best flyers in AH IMO.
When I logged in there last night, I saw 10 veterans (Fariz and Cita included) and 1 name I hadn't seen. Made my job easier! Logged and went to bed! (Damn colds, why don't they require kids to wear breathing apparatus to school to prevent bringing colds home to mom and dad?!? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) )
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Ripsnort(-rip1-)
I/JG2~Richthofen~
JG2 Communications Officer
Aces High Training Corps
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/ripsnort.jpg)
Too often, we lose sight of life's simple pleasures. Remember, when
someone annoys you it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it
only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm, grasp the joystick button,
and shoot the sucker down!
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 04-27-2000).]
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Originally posted by Mighty1:
<snip>
I've seen so called "Vets"(normally the same few guys) go into the TA just to pick on the new guys and don't seem to care if the new guys are having problems or not.
<snip>
Mino Says: The MA teaches us to be ruthless and uncaring. Leave that attitude at the door when you step into the TA.
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To re-explain my earlier post about how the AH vets can help out. If you are in the TA pay attention. IMO most people who have played even a short time can spot a "Baby Seal". Don't slaughter the Baby Seals in the TA. Let them grow up to Adult Seals where they can swim into the MA and then be slaughtered. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
One techique that works is if you don't know for sure. Buzz them a few times and DON'T SHOOT. Watch how they react. If they don't react as a vet would or they don't try to shoot back, then don't shoot at them. At this point, do the right thing. Leave them alone or give them a helping hand.
Another techique is to ask the question "Is Everyone OK with the Free for All?" or "Is it OK to Engage You?". This works the best IMO, but often times new people have a problem with the radio.
Be a good vet in the TA and help save that Baby Seal. It will make the game better for us all! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 04-27-2000).]
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Hmmmm....I hear some noise about clubbing seals. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Badger
The New Baby Harp Seals
"Come try to club THIS Seal"
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That remark bout baby seals made me think bout something (ok that's a rare occurance for me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
In nature the babyseals venture in the open sea too after a phew months (well they can swim but that's bout all they can)... then the big Killer whales or Great whites just patrol the surf for the little critters (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
Seriously tho, if a newbie realy likes the game he'll stay, if he doesn't no matter what you do he'll leave...
PS: I don't mind making it a bit easier on them tho (done that alot myself too) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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BEE(JENG)
=CO=II/JG2~Richthofen~
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://http://members.tripod.com/JG2/)
(http://nottosc.tripod.com/109bee.gif)
'Nemo Me Impune Lacessit'
[This message has been edited by JENG (edited 04-27-2000).]
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LOL (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
If the Baby Seal swims into the MA, then be the Killer Whale and slaughter them.
If the Baby Seal swims in the TA, then be the Mama Seal and give them your protection.
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew