Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Karnak on August 01, 2002, 12:23:57 AM
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The way I see it there are three choices for an Axis heavy bomber. One from each of the three big Axis nations. (One of these may be impossible for HTC to get the information required to add it to AH)
Heinkel He177A-5 Greif
(http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/images/lrg1347.jpg)
Engines:
2 x 2,950 hp (2200 kW) Daimler-Benz DB 610A/B engines, each comprising of two 12-cylinder inverted Vee DB 605 engines close-coupled to one propeller
Crew:
6 men
Performance:
Maximum speed 304mph at 19,685ft
Initial climb of 853ft per minute
Service ceiling of 26,245ft
Armament:
2 x MG151/20 20mm Cannons
3 x MG131 13mm machine guns
3 x MG81 7.92mm machine guns
Ordanance:
This was a point on which I was led to believe that it could carry 13,000lbs of bombs, but was then told that was not so. I will need the Luftwaffe specialists to fill this data in. What I have is this:
1,000kg internally
2 x Henschel Ms293 missiles
The He177A-5 is the biggest, and save for reliability issues (which would not come into play in AH), the best German bomber. Many fans of Luftwaffe aircraft have requested it.
Pros:
Fastest of the three
Largest production of the three
Good defensive firepower
Extensive use in WWII
Cons:
Slow climb rate
Potential Issues:
Getting the Henschel Ms293 missiles to be workable in AH
Lack of clarity about the payload's size and makeup
Kawanishi H8K2 "Emily"
(http://www.pbyma.org/images/emily_at_oh_12-45.jpg)
Engines:
4 x 1,850hp Kasei 22 Air-Cooled Radial 14 Cylinders Engines
Crew:
10 - 13 men
Performance:
Maximum speed 290mph at 14,750ft
Climb to 13,125ft in 8 minutes 53 seconds
Service ceiling of 28,750ft
Armament:
5 x Type 99 Model 1 20mm Cannons
7 x Type 97 7.7mm machine guns
Ordanance:
Maximum payload of 3,000kg
16 x 60kg bombs
8 x 250kg bombs
2 x 800kg bombs
2 x 1500kg bombs
2 x 800kg torpedos
Until a few days ago I didn't consider the H8K2 to be a real competitor in the heavy bomber role. The information I had seen up until then stated that it carried a maximum of a 2,000kg payload. Mitsu's info has shown that the H8K2 has a 3,000kg payload and is a true competitor in the heavy bomber category.
Pros:
Most durable of the three
Good defensive firepower and arcs
Great climb rate for a heavy bomber
It is a flying boat
Extensive use in WWII
Torpedo capable
Cons
Low production numbers
It is a flying boat
This thread about the H8K2 is the best thread I have seen in regards to an aircraft in a long time:
H8K2 Emily Information (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=60283)
Piaggio P.108
(http://64.224.13.60/arsenals/planes_it/heavy_bombers/images/p108b.jpg)
Engines:
4 x 1,350hp Piaggio P.IIX RC 35
Crew:
6 men
Performance:
Maximum speed 261mph at 12,800ft
Climb is unknown
Service ceiling of 26,400ft
Armament:
8 x 12.7mm machine guns
Ordanance:
Maximum payload of 3,500kg
Specific payloads are unknown
(http://64.224.13.60/arsenals/planes_it/heavy_bombers/images/p108a.jpg)
The P.108 would be a definate departure from the expected, but it would probably be the most difficult to do. Data on this aircraft seems to be very limited.
Pros:
Heavy bombload
Good defensive firepower
Would be unique in the simulation world
Cons:
Very low production numbers
Very limited use in WWII
Slower than the other choices
Potential Issues:
Limited available data on the interior and on performance
What do you guys think?
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excelent post Karnak.
Emily and Greif in that order please.
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how about Ju 290 (A-5 model or higher) - from what I've read it had great defensive armament (7 x 20mm + 1 x 13mm), could carry a heavy bomb load (i've read between 3000kg - 19000lbs), but couldn't go very high (ceiling was under 20000') - not many built, though
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JU188 would be cool also and would more than adrress the weak defensive fire of JU88, which is IMHO it's only drawback as a bomber.
Karnak He177 could also carry three very heavy, 1000KG I think guided bombs.
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Karnak,
P108 data, profiles and interiors are available on the 15th issue of "Ali d'Italia" series (italian/english text).
http://dogbert.abebooks.com/abe/BookDetails?bi=61038478
I have copy of the performance sheets (from the original manual) but the scanner is burned :(
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Karnak I own a coppy of that book and it contains all HTC would nead (afik) to model the P.108, also in a e mail exchange with Pyro once apon a time he stated that he was aware of the series and it's info.
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Karnak, the He 177. could afik cary 13k on a short run.
Generaly spaking the He 177 is the best imo of the 3, howeaver the H8K adds so much to the game( since it is a seaplane) that I would half to back it. Howeaver the He 177 preformed traditional bombing mishions as a general rule, while this was a secondary aspect of the H8K's mishion profile.
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Something I saved from old thread:
He 177A-5/R2
Dimensions:
- length: 22.0 m.
- height: 6.4 m.
- wingspan: 31.44 m.
Weight:
- empty: 16800 kg
- normal loaded: 27225 kg
- max. loaded: 31000 kg
Powerplant:
2xDaimler-Benz DB 610A-1/B-1 24 cylinders in v-inverted
- take-off power: 2x2950 hp
- power @ 2100 m: 2x3100 hp
Speed (27225 kg weight):
- max @ sea level: 395 km/h
- max @ 6000 m: 485 km/h; 435 km/h if loaded up to 31000 kg of weight
- cruise @ 6000: 415 km/h
Initial climb rate:
260 m/min
Climb times:
- to 3000 m., 10 minutes
- to 6000 m., 39 minutes
Range (without bombs, bombs bay replaced by fuel tanks):
- 2xHs 293 guided missiles: 5500 km
- 2xSD 1400 X "Frizt-X" guided bombs: 5000 km
Ceiling: 8000 m.
Defensive armament:
1xMG 81J 7.92 mm with 1000 rounds in the forward of cockpit and manually operated, 1xMG 151/20 20mm cannon with 300 rounds in the forward part of ventral gondola, 2xMG 81J with 1000 round each in the rear part of ventral gondola (or a single MG 131 with 1000 rounds), 2xMG 131 13 mm in forward dorsal turret with 1000 rounds each operated electrically by a remote position, 1xMG 131 with 1000 rounds in rear dorsal turret, 1xMG 151/20 with 800 rounds in tail and manually operated.
Bomb load:
- max. internal: 6000 kg. of bombs
- usual load: 16x50 kg, 4x250 kg or 2x500 kg in bombs bay + 2xLMA III sea mines, 2xLT-50 torpedoes, 2xHs 293 guided missil or 2xSD 1400 X "Fritz-X" guided bomb in external racks.
Date of deploy to operative units: February 1943
A-1/R1 Load
Bomb load:
- short distances (8802liter fuel): 48x50 kg, 12x250 kg, 6x500 kg or 4x1000 kg explosive bombs; 6x500 kg or 6x1000 kg armour-piercing bombs; 2x1000 kg + 2x1800 kg bombs or 2xLMA III sea mines + 2x1800 kg bombs
- medium distances: 32x50 kg, 8x250 kg, 4x500 kg or 4x1000 kg bombs
- long distances(12662liter fuel): 16x50 kg, 4x250 kg, 2x500 kg or 2x1000 kg bombs
*There are 4 fuselage tanks + 4 wing tanks.
*Each outer wing tank is 1120 liter in capacity.
*Each inner wing tank is 621 liter in capacity.
*The front 2 fuselage tanks are 1520 liter each(increasing to 3450l when bomb bay is blanked off).
*The rear 2 fuselage tanks are 1140 liter each.
So biggest possible fuel load is 12662 liter(which would give the 5500km range with missiles on the wings).
With the smaller fuselage tanks fitted total capacity is reduced to 8802 liter.
The DB DB 610 A-B, BR 0 u. 1 D.(Luft)T 3610 A-B, Motorenkarte, 1942,
shows the following min and max. values:
- start and emergency situation: 2800 rev/min.; 1,42 bar pressure: 960 l/hr
- low requirement, 2100 rev/min.; 1,0 bar pressure: 510 l/hr.
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Ju 290A-7 Production: about 50
Max Speed: 445 km/h
Range: 6800km as a bomber/11500 Reconnaissance
Weapons: 3 Henschel Hs 293
Engines: 4 BMW 9-801 D-2 1850hp
Span: 42m
Length: 29.15m
Height: 6.83m
Wing Area: 204 suare meters
Do 217 had 4000kg bomb load and good defensive armament and it entered service in 1941.
Ju 188 had the same bombload as the Ju 88 with better speed and better defensive armament. Service entry was probly 1942.
Id prefer Do 217 for german heavy bomber but Ju 188 would be great too. He 177 would probly loose both engine on the same wing and become unflyable so its not really a good 4 engine bomber IMO.
The Italian 4 engine would be great :D
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Historic reliability is not a factor in AH, their are numiours weapons, engines, planes in AH that were notioursly unrealible, that always work perfectaly, such would be the case for the He 177.
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He-177 because it give the germans what they need the most, a heavy bomber.
Engine reliablility isn't modeled in any plane so don't go on the "make it unreliable" crusade (for example the Nik2J had HORRIBLE engine reliability).
The Emily would be nice but it was produced in low numbers and japan already has a decent buff (Ki-67) so the Emily can wait.
The Italian buff can wait because it was produced in smaller numbers and Italy didn't play as important a role as japan or germany.
Buffs needed in greatest to least are: He177, Tu-2S, H8K or some other good japanese buff, P.108.
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Guys, also remember that the bomber needs to be one that fits into the MA. Bombers that do the job af the B-17 and Lanc at the same time aren't a great idea.
What is needed is choices, not an obvious choice that gets used in prefences over everything else. The Ju290 looks like C-Hog syndrome to me.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Guys, also remember that the bomber needs to be one that fits into the MA. Bombers that do the job af the B-17 and Lanc at the same time aren't a great idea.
What is needed is choices, not an obvious choice that gets used in prefences over everything else. The Ju290 looks like C-Hog syndrome to me.
I agree, plus if I recall correctly the Ju-290 was more used for maritime recon than bombing. 7x Mg151/20 is just asking for an uber ackstar.
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Small, not too precise comparison between bombers:
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Originally posted by Staga
Small, not too precise comparison between bombers:
ok that ends it, I WANT THE HE-177!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ki-84 would be nice too
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For bomber we would need bombers for the 2 major countrys who have no heavy bomber currently: Germany and Russia. So He177 and Tu2 would be great
For fighters, I think
1: Ki-84
2: Somthing Italian, R2005 would be nice
3: 1-16 or 1-153, all the VVS planes now are late war monsters, give them somthing crapy :)
4: Me 410
5: Ki44
6: More 109's!!!!! ;) we have too few
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Heinkel,
Last I checked Japan was a major contry and lacked a heavy bomber.
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Guys, if you need a heavy bomber for Japan, well (if you don't mind trying something that was designed but never built) look at the Fugaku:
According to Francillon's "Japanese Aircraft" the Nakajima G10N1 Fugaku (Mount Fuji) was a 6 engine bomber designed to hit US mainland targets from Japan. Designed to cruise at 32,000 feet with a top speed of 423 mph. 4 20mm defensive guns. Short range bomb load is 44,000 lbs. Bomb load for US mainland attacks projected to be 11,000 lb. Wingspan is 206 feet with a
length of 131. None were built.
It looks remarkably like a six engine B-29. But it is really in the same class as the B-36 in regards to the range and bomb load.
The Fugaku was a bomber designed to bomb the U.S. from Japan, however, it didn't get beyond the design stage, and the plans for this bomber were cancelled in July 1944 because it was deemed impossible to build at the time. The plane was supposed to have had six 36 cylinder air-cooled, supercharged engines generating 5,000 hp each. It was also supposed to have a pressurized cabin. Because of the early cancellation of the project, I don't think that any other data are available.
Considering the B-29 project actually cost more than the Manhatten Project, and then considering the resources involved, it would have been extremely difficult for Japan to produce the heavy bomber, in any significant numbers....even the original design of six 5,000 hp engines was scaled back to six 2,500hp engines.
TECHNICAL DATA
Description: Six-engined land-based bomber.
Powerplant: Six 2,500 hp Nakajima NK11A air-cooled radials
Armament: Four 20 mm cannon.
Bomb-load: 20,000 kg (44,000 lbs) for short-range sorties;
5,000 kg (11,000 lbs) for sorties against targets in the US.
G10N1
Dimensions:
Span 63.00 m (207.9 feet)
Length 40.00 m (132 feet)
Weights:
Loaded 160,000 kg (352,000 lbs)
Performance:
Maximum speed 680 km/h (421.6 MPH)
Service ceiling in excess of 10,000 m (33,000 ft)
I put a LOT of research into this...so please give it some consideration.
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Another pic of the Fugaku, anyone read Japanese?
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Fugaku was only planned in the closing days of the war.
It is unreasonable bomber for Japan.
Forget it.
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Cool plane admrose,
But, like the bearcat, and so many other cool planes, it never saw combat, and hence doesnt belong.
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well japan already has a decent unperked bomber, Germany doesn't even have a decent uperked bomber (the Ar234 sucks bellybutton now too)
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I mean a perked bomber, maybe 150+ points...and I think the JU88 is a decent bomber for Germany.
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Yes the Ju88A4 is indeed a very decent German bomber,very decent if we were fighting a 1941 scenario. But in the late war scenario of the MA the German plane set lacks a formidable late war bomber that can compete and has adequate defence. A plane like the He177 would be the perfect plane to fill this gap I'm all up for it.
Yet the thought of of the Ju88A4 being adequate is completely ludicrous Adm Rose, is it because it fills the thought of the common German bomber plane being completely defenseless or that the Germans did not launch or commit large ammount of bomber sorties after 1942? It would most certainly give an alternative to the constant waves of Lancs, B17s , or B26s that constantly we see in the MA and no other sim, if I recall, has modeled the 177 for online play.
Oh and of course it would not be perk material.
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Originally posted by Glasses
Yet the thought of of the Ju88A4 being adequate is completely ludicrous Adm Rose, is it because it fills the thought of the common German bomber plane being completely defenseless or that the Germans did not launch or commit large ammount of bomber sorties after 1942?
It fills that thought cause the Ju-88 was the common German bomber:
The RLM (German air ministry) issued a requirement for a Schnellbomber (fast bomber) in 1935. This led to the Junkers Ju 88, destined to be produced in greater numbers than all other German bombers combined. Total production reached 14,780 including 104 prototypes.
The He 177, however:
The Greif bombers, originally intended to provide the Luftwaffe with a strategic bombing force, encountered so many development problems that they only entered service in quantity during the last 18 months of the war. About 1,160 production and 30 prototype He 177s were built.
I think the Do-217M would be a better choice:
Dornier Do 217 M
4 crew medium/heavy bomber
Engines: Do 217M Two 1750 hp (1305kW) Daimler-Benz DB603A inverted V12s
Wingspan: 62 ft 4 in (19.00m )
Length: 55 ft 9.25 in (17.00m )
Height: 16 ft 4 in (4.98m )
Empty Weight: 19,985 lb (9065 kg )
Max Overloaded weight: 36,817 lb (16700 kg )
Armament:four 7.92mm and two 13mm machine guns.
Max bombload 8,818 lb (4000 kg)
Max Speed: 348 mph (560 km/h ) - for Do 217M-1 at 18,700 ft (5700m)
Max speed at sea level: 294 mph (473 km/h )
Cruise Speed: 248 mph (399 km/h )
Initial Climb Rate: 690 ft/min (210 m/min )
Service ceiling: 24,170 ft (7367 m )
Range: 1,335 - 1,550 miles (2148 - 2495 km )
Just a suggestion.
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Ju88A-4 is just as good as the Ki-67.
Ki-67 is faster and better armed, but carries less than a Mosquito in ordanance. Less than 2,000lbs.
The Ju88A-4 carries about 5,000lbs, but is poorly defended and not overly fast. Neither one is terribly useful as a bomber in the MA.
The Ar234 isn't very useful as a bomber either.
If the He177A-5 can indeed carry 13,000lbs of bombs, as people are once again claiming, I would have to argue against it. Any bomber that is clearly better overall than the existing bombers should not be introduced as a free aircraft.
If the He177A-5 could carry 13,000lbs of bombs, then I would suggest the Ju188A-2 as a new German bomber. It is faster than any bomber save the Ki-67, reasonably well armed and can carry 6,000lbs of bombs. The Ju188A-2 would do quite well and not need to be perked.
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Originally posted by Karnak
If the He177A-5 can indeed carry 13,000lbs of bombs, as people are once again claiming, I would have to argue against it. Any bomber that is clearly better overall than the existing bombers should not be introduced as a free aircraft.
aye...
PERK THE LANCASTER!!!! that 14000lbs-carrying monster :D :D :D
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Let me use H8K Emily as Japanese B-17. :D :D
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RAM,
The Lancaster is slower, climbs worse and is much, much poorer in the defense department.
Currently you have a choice of taking a large payload (Lancaster) or good defensive firepower (B-17G). The He177A-5 would have nearly the payload of the Lancaster, decent defensive fire and be faster than either the B-17 or Lancaster. It ends the choice. Instead of choosing firepower or payload you just take an He177A-5 and get both.
Now, if the He177A-5 could carry 13,000lbs of bombs in the same way as the Lancaster techincally carried 22,000lbs and the B-17G technically carried 16,000lbs I don't think it'd be an issue. You will note that neither big bomber in AH actually has its maximum load as an option.
So, if the He177A-5 were to have a normal payload in the 6,000-10,000lb range, I don't see why there'd be a problem.
Mitsu,
Yes, the H8K2 is well balanced. It climbs better than either, has a bombload that is limited and has defensive fire that is a little less effective than the B-17G's.
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Do217 M-1 carried two Mg131 (dorsal turret/ventral gondola), four MG81 at cockpit sides and one MG81 Z at nose.
Note Do217s top speed vs. other LW bombers...
Do217 M-1 - 348 mph (557km/h) at 18,700ft (5700m)
Ju188 A-2 - 325 mph (523km/h) at 20,500ft (6250m)
He177 A-5 - 304 mph (490km/h) at 19,685ft (6000m)
Ju88 A-4 - 286 mph (461km/h) at 16,000ft (4876m)
He111 H - 270 mph (435km/h) at 19,685ft (6000m)
Do17 Z - 265 mph (427km/h) at 16,400ft (4998m)
Fw200 - 224 mph (360km/h) at 15,400ft (4694m)
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I honestly do not see why(as far as a german bomber is concerned) why the He 177 is not the obvious choice, production numbers are irrevelent, the He 177 was produced in numbers at least 5 to 6 greater than the C hog, so this is a mute and pointless point. What is important is that the Germans get a good late war buff and the He 177 is the only logical choice, the Do 177 is no whear near as well defended, and the He 177 can cary a bigger load, which is why we nead a German late war heavy, Better defensive firepowere bigger load, why settle for anything else. I mean it is this simple.
Do 217, weak defensive firepower, smaller bombload
He 177, Good defensive firepower,Good bombload
The 40 some odd mile per hour spead advantage means very little, you will still be intercepted, you will miss that firepower the He 177 has.
This all irevealent and a side topic, the clear choice from the above planes is the Emily, it brings so much to the game that it simply outweighs the competition.
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Do-217 would be nice in some models it did have a quad 30 cal in th e tail. iT is fast had a very decent bombload but it wouldnt be able to do barrel rolls like the lanc or the 17 we have in here. JU-188 had a 20mm in the rear cockpit as well. Just a FYI Dr. Z
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anyone know if G8N Renzan was ever used - only 4 built. Fast (> 350 mph), OK bomb load (1000 kb), excellent defensive fire (nose : 2 x 13 mm type 2 in power turret; dorsal blister, ventral blister, tail turret : 2 x 20 mm type 99 in power turret; beam [right & left]: 2 x 13 mm type 2 in flexable mounts)
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Originally posted by Karnak
An Axis heavy bomber is needed in Aces High
What do you guys think?
I think an Axis heavy bomber (in numbers) was needed in WWII as well.
eskimo
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from what i've read the He117 (a bit over a thousand) was produced in good numbers - but the krauts didn't have a long range escort to go along with it (or the Ju 290) - if there was brain/2 at the top of the luftwaffe, they'd have got some zekes from their axis buddies for that purpose
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not flying this sim anymore, but some info from me
regarding the HE177 PAYLOAD.
the 177 had 3 internal bomb bays. if all are used, it had
around 6000kg payload.
when you read about the versions, carrying the guided
bombs, it was a fersion, where 1 out of 3 bomb bays
where modificated into fuel tanks.
so, only less internal but external the guided bombs.
here are the 2 versions for AH:
he177 A5/R2 (anti ship version)
internal: 16x50kg or 4x250kg or 2x500kg
external:LT 50 torpedos (3?), 3 Hs-293A or
3 FX-1400-FritzX
he177 A5/R1 (bomber version)
internal: 48x50kg or 12x250kg or 6x500kg or 6x1000kg
or 2x1000kg+2x1800kg or 2 LMA-III-MINES+
2x 1800kg
wastel
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TY for adding that info, It would be interesting to see If ever HTC modeled the Hs-293A or FX-1400-FritzX .
All in all a very usefull Payload on the He 177.
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Originally posted by whgates3
anyone know if G8N Renzan was ever used - only 4 built. Fast (> 350 mph), OK bomb load (1000 kb), excellent defensive fire (nose : 2 x 13 mm type 2 in power turret; dorsal blister, ventral blister, tail turret : 2 x 20 mm type 99 in power turret; beam [right & left]: 2 x 13 mm type 2 in flexable mounts)
you can check this site:
http://64.124.221.191/ijna/g8n.htm
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(http://www.ops.dti.ne.jp/~gotha/KMAC/Photo/Image/renzan1.jpg)
G8N1 Renzan