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General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: midnight Target on August 01, 2002, 03:29:36 PM

Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: midnight Target on August 01, 2002, 03:29:36 PM: 2001 Feb 9-11 2000 Feb 14-15 1999 Feb ^
% % %
Ronald Reagan 18 11 12
John Kennedy 16 22 12
Abraham Lincoln 14 18 18
Bill Clinton 9 5 12
Franklin Roosevelt 6 12 9
Harry Truman 6 3 4

Go figure!

From a Gallup Poll +- 5%
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: AKDejaVu on August 01, 2002, 03:32:25 PM: LOL! I can't help but wonder on what people based their decisions.

Name recognition?

AKDejaVu
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: Sikboy on August 01, 2002, 03:36:23 PM: time to go to format school Target... I have no idea what you're getting at lol.

-Sikboy
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: midnight Target on August 01, 2002, 03:43:55 PM: hehe no kidding!

I tried to format it, but this aint a WYSIWYG board. The poll shows Clinton in 4th place in the most recent poll 2/2001.
Title: Re: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: mietla on August 01, 2002, 03:49:04 PM: Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
2001 Feb 9-11 2000 Feb 14-15 1999 Feb ^
% % %
Ronald Reagan 18 11 12
John Kennedy 16 22 12
Abraham Lincoln 14 18 18
Bill Clinton 9 5 12
Franklin Roosevelt 6 12 9
Harry Truman 6 3 4

Go figure!

From a Gallup Poll +- 5%

got yourself some fresh popcorn, huh? :)
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: mietla on August 01, 2002, 03:51:50 PM: nm
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: Sikboy on August 01, 2002, 03:57:08 PM: So Clin-Ton is the 4th best ? That's pretty cool.. oh wait, according to your data, Ronald Reagan was the best. Sounds right to me, must be correctly calibrated.

-Sikboy
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: midnight Target on August 01, 2002, 04:39:01 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Sikboy
So Clin-Ton is the 4th best ? That's pretty cool.. oh wait, according to your data, Ronald Reagan was the best. Sounds right to me, must be correctly calibrated.

-Sikboy

Hehe, would this be considered "chumming"?

:p
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: Morgoth on August 01, 2002, 04:53:07 PM: ::: sniff, sniff :::

::: munch, munch :::

*SPIT*

I prefer cheezy poof flavored bait.
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: BUG_EAF322 on August 01, 2002, 04:58:17 PM: Reagan ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: AKDejaVu on August 01, 2002, 05:03:58 PM: Ronald Reagan 18 11 12
John Kennedy 16 22 12
Abraham Lincoln 14 18 18
Bill Clinton 9 5 12
Franklin Roosevelt 6 12 9
Harry Truman 6 3 4
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: Holden McGroin on August 01, 2002, 05:04:09 PM: Son of a --- nobody ever rates Millard Fillmore high... bunch of ignorant a****les :mad:
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: AKDejaVu on August 01, 2002, 05:07:30 PM: BTW... I would have put the dates in that chart... but I could not even begin to undrestand what you were saying in that row.
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: HFMudd on August 01, 2002, 05:11:51 PM: An interesting side survey would be to have these same people *name* as many presidents as they can.

I bet the list of "best" presidents and the list of presidents they could name would look a lot alike.
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: Durr on August 01, 2002, 06:33:22 PM: I dont put too much stock in polls like this because the question is pretty open ended. What is the definition of "best" for this?
I agree that many of the people that picked from these did so from sheer ignorance, not even having a rational explanation as to why they did so.

As to which presidents are widely considered to be among the best, its interesting to see who is and who is not on the list. Obviously its better to have a war or other catastrophe happen on your watch if you want to be remembered at all much. There have been some really good presidents that presided in quiet times, and they are hardly remembered.

Again, how do you define best, or even good. No president has been perfect of course, all having been human, and all made their share of mistakes. Some presidents have been very effective leaders and were very successful, and even though I disagree with things they did politically, they were successfuly at getting their agendas across. A president like this was obviously good at being president, he got done what he set out to do, I just dont agree with the goals that he was trying to achieve. Other presidents were very likable, or very good people personally, but very ineffective at the job. My analysis of the post WW2 presidents is as follows (starting with FDR although he isnt post WW2)on a scale of 1-10 with 10 being greatest and 1 being worst. I mainly rate based on whether the things they did were good for the country in the long run, as well as their effectiveness, and leadership:

FDR: very effective at getting his way, I disagree with many of the things he was trying to do, but he did handle WW2 quite well. A skilled politician, and assured of being remembered as great just by virtue of his conduct in WW2, I still dislike his policies as far as big government and the social systems that he set about. Overall rating (7)

Truman: had enough guts to drop the bomb, but chickened out in Korea and didnt win the war as advised by MacArthur. I think he really dropped the ball in Korea and we still suffer some consequenses from that today. (5)

Eisenhower: a great general, and a pretty good president too. He presided in quiet times for the most part, despite much tension with the Soviets as the Cold War was on. (7)

JFK: considered a good president in many ways even by his Republican opponants, JFK was a good leader. He was pretty moderate in his politics overall. His messups include the infamous bay of pigs incident, and some would say getting us into Vietnam without a clear exit strategy. On the good side, he handled the Cuban missile crisis superbly, and built a strong military. He was an effective president overall. Presided over the beginnings of the space race too. (8)

LBJ: probaby the worst president of this period, LBJ did almost nothing right except signing some Civil rights legislation. He royally screwed up the Vietnam war with the help of that idiot MacNamara. He also set about some disastrous social programs.
At least he had the sense not to run for reelection.(2)

Nixon: underrated as a president. His terms are overshadowed by Watergate of course, but he was actually pretty effective. He turned around the Vietnam war and possibly could have won it, but elected to pull out, and managed that fairly well. He was pretty Machievellian but he got things done, even though I dont really agree with too much of his "ends justify the means" philosophy. Watergate really hurt the Republicans and the country so he loses huge points for complicity in all that. (5)

Ford: didnt serve a full term, but he served during some hard times for the country. He pardoned Nixon which hurts him in public opinion, but may not have been such a bad thing to do. I wont second guess that decision. I need to read up some more about Ford, I know less about him than any other president but for now Ill give him a (5).

Carter: a man of integrity, but incompetant as president. He made the country a joke around the world. I consider him one of the worst of this period along with Johnson. On the bad side, he gave away the Canal, botched the Iran hostage crisis, mishandled the economy, and just generally didnt stand up to the USSR strongly. On the good side, he helped bring peace between Israel and Egypt, and continued some weapons programs that have been essential to our national defense, even though he cancelled the B-1, which may actually have been the right decision at the time. (2)

Reagan: a great president by any measure, he is considered great by many Democrats just as many Republicans consider JFK great. Reagan did more than any other president to bring down the USSR, and also managed to reverse to a large degree a liberal trend that the US had been going through off and on for a long time. He managed to reaffirm good conservative values, and make people feel good about the country. Good- strong military, tax cuts, conservative Supreme Court judges, strong foreign policy
Bad- the whole Iran-Contra affair, which may not have been his fault but it happened on his watch and was certainly mishandled any way you look at it. (9)

Bush Sr: started out good, but just wasnt the leader that Reagan was. He did all right in Desert Storm, but stopped short of removing the Saddam problem, which we see now in 20-20 hindsight was probably a big mistake. Then he raised taxes against his famous pledge not to. All in all a mediocre president
(5)

Clinton: personally charismatic and likable, his personal antics certainly tarnished the office or president. No integrity, and surrounded himself with many poor choices for advisors and cabinet members. His terms were marred by many scandals and the mishandling of Somalia. Bad-Somalia, Haiti, scandals, much of the legislation that he signed Good-some moderate legislation, free trade agreements, economy flourished during his terms
I dont credit him with the boom in the economy much, but it did happen under his watch so will give him some credit for that whether he had anything to do with it or not. (3)

Bush Jr: whether you like it or not, he will probably get remembered well in history since he was president when the WTC attack happened. I personally think that he is a great president. I initially was skeptical of Bush during the primaries, but he has exceeded my wildest expectations. I wont give him a grade since his term(s)? isnt/arent over yet, but so far he is on track to rival Reagan in my book.

I know this analysis has been highly subjective, and certainly biased by my being Republican and conservative, but hey, if you dont like my list, make your own! :D
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: Sandman on August 01, 2002, 06:40:10 PM: Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target

Hehe, would this be considered "chumming"?

:p

I think so.
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: J_A_B on August 01, 2002, 07:38:15 PM: Washington is the best. His actions in office literally defined the presidency.

J_A_B
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: mietla on August 01, 2002, 07:39:54 PM: Good assessment Durr.
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: Dead Man Flying on August 01, 2002, 08:21:42 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Durr
LBJ: probaby the worst president of this period, LBJ did almost nothing right except signing some Civil rights legislation. He royally screwed up the Vietnam war with the help of that idiot MacNamara. He also set about some disastrous social programs.
At least he had the sense not to run for reelection.(2)

While I agree with you that LBJ's conduct in Vietnam was atrocious, you vastly understate and underestimate his accomplishments. "Signed" some civil rights legislation? This was legislation that another president you rated much more highly, Kennedy, was completely ineffective in getting through the same Congress that LBJ managed to deftly guide it through less than a year after Kennedy's death.

In addition, the space race began under Eisenhower, not Kennedy. The major visionary and champion of space exploration during that period? Senate Majority Leader Lyndon Johnson, of course... there's a reason Houston was and is central to NASA, and LBJ is it.

As well, Johnson may have set in place some disastrous social programs (which you attribute fully to him while ignoring his very real contributions to civil rights legislation), but hindsight is 20-20; at the time, this legislation appeared progressive, new, arguably necessary. That Johnson was able to guide it successfully through Congress again proves his mastery of the legislative process. You earlier explained that, according to your criteria for rating "greatness", some presidents, "though I disagree with things they did politically, they were successfuly at getting their agendas across."

Why doesn't LBJ fit into this successful agenda category? He was central to passing civil rights and welfare legislation, key elements of his agenda, through a Congress ideologically (though not partisanly) opposed to it. I certainly understand the animosity he deserves for Vietnam, and in my mind it drags him to the bottom of any pack, but give credit where credit is due.

-- Todd/Leviathn
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: Shuckins on August 01, 2002, 10:32:20 PM: I guess people tend to vote in these polls for the Presidents of their own times. How else can one explain Bill Clinton being ranked ahead of Franklin Roosevelt? The challenges Clinton faced during his administration were miniscule compared to those faced by Roosevelt (Unless one counts the challenges he faced defending his administration from criticism surrounding the many scandals.)

Regards, Shuckins
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: Krusher on August 02, 2002, 08:51:57 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Dead Man Flying

While I agree with you that LBJ's conduct in Vietnam was atrocious, you vastly understate and underestimate his accomplishments.
-- Todd/Leviathn

One of the most facinating things about LBJ was his ability to arm twist people into doing things they never would have normaly done. The recently released audio tapes show him to be a master at manipulation.
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: Sikboy on August 02, 2002, 02:20:41 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
I guess people tend to vote in these polls for the Presidents of their own times. How else can one explain Bill Clinton being ranked ahead of Franklin Roosevelt? The challenges Clinton faced during his administration were miniscule compared to those faced by Roosevelt (Unless one counts the challenges he faced defending his administration from criticism surrounding the many scandals.)

Regards, Shuckins

It also helps that today a lot of people don't see Roosevelt as the man who saved America from the ravages of the great depression, but rather as the socialist bastard who got us locked into this welfare state with his marxist new deal nonsense, and then he had the gall to let our ships get sunk at Pearl without even giving Kimmel and Short a peck on the cheek and a minutes warning.

-Sikboy
Title: Re: Re: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: Fishu on August 02, 2002, 02:59:59 PM: Clinton sure was far better president than George "Monkey" Bush Jr.

With not just Bush Jr. making that far after presidental elections, but also Gore coming the second, I can only shake my head in disbelief.
Puppets!
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: Shuckins on August 02, 2002, 03:11:25 PM: Sikboy,

The people of the 1930's weren't worried about the dangers of "socialist programs." They were worried about starvation, among other things. They needed a helping hand from the government. If you compare family photos of people who lived during that period with those alive today certain things will immediately stand out. One of these is that the people from the 30's, especially rural people, don't look nearly as well nourished and comfortable as the people of today.

Several of the New Deal programs were eliminated during WWII and in the years immediately after because the economy was improving and there was no longer a need for them. Real abuse of this type of program did not begin until the late 1960's and early 1970's. What was done to the Social Security fund by Congress during the seventies and eighties is a prime example. Had they kept their mitts off of that money instead of spending it on pork-barrel programs Social Security would not be in the dire straits it is today. Despite attempts to fix it, the program will probably go bankrupt in about 20 years.

I have no problem with well-run government programs. It's just that there are so few of them!

Regards, Shuckins
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: Sikboy on August 02, 2002, 03:26:47 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
Sikboy,

The people of the 1930's weren't worried about the dangers of "socialist programs." They were worried about starvation, among other things.

Right, and as the greatest generation dies off and a becomes a smaller and smaller percentage of the poll taking population, FDRs popularity will continue to sink in relation to other presidents, since those voting see him in a different light. I mean, although I was not alive during the depression, and certainly didn't vote in '32, I can understand why FDR was popular, and I can even understand why people elected the blueblooded POS.

-Sikboy
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: majic on August 02, 2002, 03:46:58 PM: Durr:

Good assessment, but I would probably rate Kennedy lower (think much of his mystique is from being assassinated) and FDR higher (while I'm not usually in favor of big government, they were the right policies at the right time).

Book is still out on Bush Jr. Still not completely sure about him.
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: midnight Target on August 02, 2002, 04:10:34 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Sikboy

It also helps that today a lot of people don't see Roosevelt as the man who saved America from the ravages of the great depression, but rather as the socialist bastard who got us locked into this welfare state with his marxist new deal nonsense, and then he had the gall to let our ships get sunk at Pearl without even giving Kimmel and Short a peck on the cheek and a minutes warning.

-Sikboy

Now THAT is good stuff!
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: midnight Target on August 02, 2002, 04:16:34 PM: Regarding what was important in the 30's.

My dad went into the Army Air Corps in 1942. He was 6' tall and weighed 125lbs. He wasNOT considered unusually built at the time. He was considered "tall" though. This is almost completely due to diet and the opportunity to obtain food. The 1930's and into the 40's were difficult times for all.

hey this color thing is pretty cool!
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: midnight Target on August 02, 2002, 04:18:13 PM: One more thing....

The best President WAS Roosevelt.

Teddy Roosevelt.
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: Kieran on August 02, 2002, 04:28:53 PM: Quote
With not just Bush Jr. making that far after presidental elections, but also Gore coming the second, I can only shake my head in disbelief.

Color me baffled, I have only the vaguest idea of what you are saying. I know English is your second language, can you elaborate?

I guess you had to live here during the '92 election, and hear Clinton start the lies. I listened to the candidates, and when it came to be Clinton's turn I actually knew little about him. When asked about his marijuana smoking in the past, did he stand up and say, "Yes, I did it, but that was a different time, and long ago at that." Nope, instead of giving the answer that would have earned him votes and respect, he said, "I smoked, but didn't inhale". That response is insulting to the collective intelligence of the country. I knew from that point on that anyone with the nerve to stand up on national television and tell such an obvious lie, especially over such a non-issue, wasn't to be trusted on any issue. I had a student at the time who was all-Clinton, and I warned her that, if elected, Clinton would bring shame to the Whitehouse like no one before. I need to find that student BTW to collect the $5 she owes me...

...then we come to Gore. Al was ok, merely a puppet in the background as so many VP's are. Then the campaign fund scandal kicks up, Gore is caught with his hand in the cookie jar, and he utters the infamous "No legal controlling authority" line, and I said, "uh-oh". Once again, I didn't have to be Nostradamus to see that line was going to leave a mark. Flash forward to a cold December day when the Democrats took a victory lap around the Whitehouse, Al stuck his hand on Clinton's shoulder and proclaimed him as one of the most virtuous people he ever met. "uh-oh" again.

The election wasn't stolen, it was lost, and rightfully so. Granted, I am only an ignorant American, but it seems to me that if you willingly elect someone you know is lying to your face, you should only expect more of the same.

Bush is not perfect, not even close, but he has been man enough to admit a drinking and cocaine problem in the past. The constant references to him as "monkey boy" only shows the extent to which some don't think for themselves, but regurgitate the lines handed to them from those media moguls they admire. On what basis is this observation? Mediocre grades? Pampered background? Hey, anyone smart enough to fly an all-weather fighter has my respect in the intelligence department.
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: -Concho- on August 02, 2002, 04:29:55 PM: I'm going to side with Target on this one, hope nobody holds that against me. :)
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: Eagler on August 02, 2002, 04:49:23 PM: what Kieran said

I think the poll is too close for an objective view of Clinton, he should be in a poll in about 20 years when the smoke & mirrors of the dems has been lowered.

Kennedy? don't see that either...
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: SaburoS on August 02, 2002, 05:01:28 PM: Post 1898, I'll go with Theodore Roosevelt as well. Unique mix of a true conservative and liberal. Feared by his own party.
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: senna on August 02, 2002, 05:15:35 PM: >Carter: botched the Iran hostage crisis

Well from a big picture point of view I guess thats what most people are led to believe. Underneath it all, Carter was actually trying to be effective towards the crisis. It was he who decided to go forward and save the American hostages held in Iran using Military actions. A bold move during a time when America was still not confident of its military, the 70s. His concerns were natural and wanted to ensure the liabilities of casualties and ramifications of disaster against his presidancy. With this in mind, he went ahead and decided it was more important to save the lifes of those Americans held in hostage in Iran. Meetings were made with Generals and other high ranking military officials and the events were executed. Alot of lives were at stake that had accumlated in decades of events and decisions to all put them there at that moment in time. In the aftermath a ton of Delta Force people were dead, alot of the prime and core people who founded and built this elit military unit lay dead. Not to the fault of Carter, simply an accident on route to the target. I think his decision was right, its just tragic that the winds had to intervene in such a way. It's amazing, the facts and things you can learn if you have six bucks and your bored.

:eek:
Title: Reagan?
Post by: weazel on August 02, 2002, 05:28:15 PM: Too bad chimpy blocked the release of the Gibberers presidential memoirs, he gets #1 instead of being recognized as scum.

"Reagan: a great president by any measure, he is considered great by many Democrats just as many Republicans consider JFK great. Reagan did more than any other president to bring down the USSR, and also managed to reverse to a large degree a liberal trend that the US had been going through off and on for a long time. He managed to reaffirm good conservative values, and make people feel good about the country. Good- strong military, tax cuts, conservative Supreme Court judges, strong foreign policy
Bad- the whole Iran-Contra affair, which may not have been his fault but it happened on his watch and was certainly mishandled any way you look at it."

Yeah, he was great.....at hanging the people in our military out to dry. Don't forget the Marines in Beirut.

In regards to the Soviet Unions collapse he simply collected the pot, the presidents who went before him made it possible.

"Good conservative values", I'll give him credit for the "conservative" fairy tale thats become so popular.

Your view of Iran/Contra demonstrates the hypocrisy of the right wing.

It amazes me to see how many people are willing to buy into the "conservative" drivel, PT Barnum would have loved to live in these times.

"Theres a sucker born every minute".
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: senna on August 02, 2002, 05:42:01 PM: Hum, takes weazel out, squeak slaps him twice on the left cheak, gives him a shot of Wild Turkey to sooth his pain. Appologizes to him then puts him back in his cage in front of TV.

Reminds him that the world is better today except for pretty birdies in cages.

:D
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: Durr on August 02, 2002, 05:59:27 PM: Well I rarely agree with Midnight, especially as far as politics go, even though I respect his viewpoint, and think that he is an excellent spokesman for his beliefs, which I admire. I have even gained a greater understanding for the way a liberal thinks from reading his posts. Nonetheless, we still disagree on most issues, so it is with surprise that I see that we share a favorite president. T.R. is certainly in my top 5 presidents list anyday.
Title: Isn't it funny how.....
Post by: weazel on August 02, 2002, 06:03:45 PM: The so called "conservatives" get their panties in a wad when confronted with the truth?

"squeak Slap"?

You probably should stick to beating your wife, I doubt you would try it if we met.

Reminds Senna that the world is better today except for people who still believe in fairy tales.

Quote
Originally posted by senna
Hum, takes weazel out, squeak slaps him twice on the left cheak, gives him a shot of Wild Turkey to sooth his pain. Appologizes to him then puts him back in his cage in front of TV.

Reminds him that the world is better today except for pretty birdies in cages.

:D
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: wsnpr on August 02, 2002, 06:11:29 PM: Theodore Roosevelt my favorite, Ronald Reagan the worst.
You can add this to negative Reagan points:
1) He drove up the National debt like no other.
2) Sold the less intelligent, the merits of 'Reaganomics.' That trickle-down theory even Reagan didn't truly understand. Bush called it voodoo economics.
3) His administration was the most corrupt. Makes Clinton's administration look angelic.
4) Reagan wanted to classify ketchup as a vegetable for the public school lunch program so there could be one less vegetable served to the less fortunate kids.
5) Ed Meese proclaimed that "There were no homeless people in America."
6) Upon learning of an Israeli Airstrike against Syrian(I think I remember it being them) SAM positions, Reagan stated that the Israeli's were justified because the Israeli's were firing on offensive targets in self defence. When a reporter asked how SAM's can be considered 'offensive', Reagan quipted that "Those SAMs were pointed towards Israel." LOL! What a moron!
This is just the tip of the iceberg. All from memory. Being 40, I lived through those times.

If Clinton were a Rebublican, the 'conservatives' here would be rating Clinton much higher and the 'liberals' would rate him lower.
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: senna on August 02, 2002, 06:14:22 PM: Weazal, I'm not that big of a guy actually (5 foot 7) so I would probably have to Tai Bow you to death.

Hehe just kidding of course. I can appreciate a good leftist radical from time to time.

:D
Title: Re: Isn't it funny how.....
Post by: wsnpr on August 02, 2002, 06:15:38 PM: Quote
Originally posted by weazel
The so called "conservatives" get their panties in a wad when confronted with the truth?

LOL, some can't handle the truth :)

After presented with facts/statements that disagree with theirs, some tend to start hurling insults or go off on tangents.

Just what I've been noticing.

(Edited to add)
Or some'll 'squelch' others (or make the statement of doing that).

(edited for accuracy - my perspective)
Title: Re: Re: Isn't it funny how.....
Post by: wsnpr on August 02, 2002, 06:19:11 PM: oops
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: Durr on August 02, 2002, 06:29:52 PM: Addressing the points from the last post about Reagan:

1) The national debt went up because we needed to stand up to the USSR and have a strong military. The tax cut was essential for helping the economy and was a great idea, but Congress refused to cut back on social programs at the time, allowing the debt to balloon. It wasnt that big of a deal though. National defense was necessary, tax cuts were necessary, and the Congress (both liberals and conservatives) seemed to feel that the pork in the budget was necessary.

2) Not everybody agrees that trickle-down economics was a failure. You can debate this all day long but there are plenty of economists on both sides of this one. I personally believe it works as advertised to a large degree.

3) While writing the rebuttal to this one, I was surprised to learn during research that this charge is actually true. Nonetheless, most of the Reagan officials that were charged or resigned were charged with much less serious charges in my opinion, or maybe its just my conservative bias showing. Anyway this charge is apparantly true if you classify most corrupt as "most officials associated with that were either indited or resigned under ethical cloud".

4) Cant respond to this one, never heard this story before. It sounds dubious to me though.

5) Wont respond to this one either without further research.

6) How can SAMs be offensive? How about this, those SAM sites were within range and threatining Israeli airspace. They threatened Israeli military aircraft that were flying in their own territory and also civilian Israeli aircraft. I'm not trying to be an Israel apologist here, (although I think they did what they needed to do in the Bekaa valley campaign referred to here) but
simply pointing out that this statement isnt nonsense. Trust me, we definitely consider Stinger SAMs in the hands of the Taliban to be potentially offensive weapons!
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: Durr on August 02, 2002, 06:38:09 PM: wsnpr I am conservative, and you can search my posts if you like. I have never resorted to insults or name-calling in arguing my viewpoint. I have seen just as many liberals as conservatives resort to this type of behaviour on these boards. Neither side has a lock on all the idiots. It just seems to you that more conservatives do so, probably because those are the posts that you notice most. I know that if I see a conservative calling names or hurling insults, I may cringe or laugh depending on what he says, but if a liberal does same, it is more likely to inflame me. I try to see both sides of the issues, and I value debate, but I remain unabashedly and firmly in the right hand side of the aisle, and like so many issues this is simply an issue of perspective.

Its like the Bishops insisting that the Knights only fly Nikis and LA-7s. This is hardly true, but it can seem that way when thats all you see I'm sure. It certainly seems to me that all I see on the Bishop team is La-7s and Spitfires. You dont see it when your own side flies these planes, because you only see the names of your friends, not their plane type. It all depends on what side you are on as to how you view an issue. Realize this and move on.
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: batdog on August 02, 2002, 06:50:39 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
I guess people tend to vote in these polls for the Presidents of their own times. How else can one explain Bill Clinton being ranked ahead of Franklin Roosevelt? The challenges Clinton faced during his administration were miniscule compared to those faced by Roosevelt (Unless one counts the challenges he faced defending his administration from criticism surrounding the many scandals.)

Regards, Shuckins

Hell yea... THINK about it. FDR came up w/ideas that where orginal..or at least untried to bring this nation back from economic disaster. And when WW2 came about.... he was THE man. He wielded and forged an alliance through sheer force of personality that few other leaders in the history of the WORLD could of accomplished. Hell..he was even a GAG "socialist" but man..my vote is for him.

I like Daddy Ronnie to. He gave me lots of toys to play with.

xBAT

"I lost my damn frog...he ran off with that GD donkey!"
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: Kronos on August 02, 2002, 07:02:36 PM: Hmmm..... No one seems to recall that Abraham Lincoln imprisoned people without due cause, broke almost all of the bill of rights, including freedom of speech.... all during a time of war in the name of "saving the union" ... now I for one do believe he was a good president, and probably the best that the Union could have had for that time. But, amongst those presidents who "bent the rules" he ranks among the foremost.

Ronald Reagan. Yes, he spent billions on armaments during a period of tense nuclear proliferation in the world... he got the american military back on its feet after several blunders and disasters that cast a terrible light on the U.S. Armed Forces. And he was the first president to give the U.S. military a decent pay raise. -- He gets my vote. (im not partial at all, no im not :D )

Bill Clinton. He cut the military, downsized it, in an effort to save money. He "downsized" the military to the point where it almost couldnt do the job anymore. -- Nuff said.
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: wsnpr on August 02, 2002, 07:14:10 PM: More posts on the Reagan years. Be sure to check out 87-80 also.
Please tell me with a straight face that Reagan still was the best. LOL (I actually just found the link trying to find the quotes posted above. Couldn't find the exact quotes...yet. Wow worse than I remember. Brought me down memory lane)

http://www.quickchange.com/reagan/1988.html (http://www.quickchange.com/reagan/1988.html)
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: wsnpr on August 02, 2002, 07:22:49 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Durr
wsnpr I am conservative, and you can search my posts if you like. I have never resorted to insults or name-calling in arguing my viewpoint. I have seen just as many liberals as conservatives resort to this type of behaviour on these boards. Neither side has a lock on all the idiots. It just seems to you that more conservatives do so, probably because those are the posts that you notice most. I know that if I see a conservative calling names or hurling insults, I may cringe or laugh depending on what he says, but if a liberal does same, it is more likely to inflame me. I try to see both sides of the issues, and I value debate, but I remain unabashedly and firmly in the right hand side of the aisle, and like so many issues this is simply an issue of perspective.

Durr,
I stand corrected. Without thinking I meant to classify as some when in fact I was painting all conservatives with a broad brush. I apologize. I will edit the post to make clear to mean some, not all.
And yes, you have a valid point. It is all about perspective. As you are entrenched in the right hand side, I the left. After all, everyone, including you and I are making statements based on our own perspectives. :) ~SALUTE~ Sir.
Regards,
wSNPR
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: Fishu on August 02, 2002, 08:24:54 PM: Kieran,

All im saying, is that I can't believe those two puppets made it that far.
Couldn't US have voted for better ones?
Is it just that they had alot bigger budget than others and thats all that did matter?

I just don't understand how bush jr. became elected.. it's still beyond me.
Gore wasn't strong looking candidate either.. seemingly a puppet and not a strong leader.
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: Kieran on August 02, 2002, 10:48:39 PM: Fishu-

With that I agree. Neither one were my first choice, and even my first choice wasn't all that good. If you think Bush scares the world, imagine if McCain had won. :eek:
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: mietla on August 02, 2002, 11:39:19 PM: I don't think that Reagan would be willing to do this:

In defense of Israel (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=60719)
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: Elfenwolf on August 02, 2002, 11:54:17 PM: The greatest President we ever had was our 9th President, William Henry Harrison. He died before he had a chance to continue the downward spiral of American politics.
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: easymo on August 03, 2002, 03:54:40 AM: Who was the Best President? Clinton?

Billy Winslow had him beat by a mile. Winslow was our Jr. high class president. He was openly gay as pink ink. That took a lot of character in 1960. Something we all know clinton has never had even a passing knowledge of.
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: Shuckins on August 03, 2002, 08:21:42 AM: Ever notice how many tough, rugged and muscular virtual he-men you meet on-line?

One of the things that made Roosevelt a great president was his willingness to adopt ideas from the "opposition party." Some of the New Deal programs created by Roosevelt's administration came from ideas originally developed by Herbert Hoover. Roosevelt worked closely with the leaders of the Republican party, some of which were appointed to prominent posts within his administration.

Sorry guys, but Reagan didn't drive up the deficits and the national debt. Congress did that. Lesson 1 for any government class studying the development of the federal budget is this: The President and his staff write the budget. Lesson 2: The budget is then sent to the House and the Senate, who treat the President's budget as if it is only a suggestion. Deficits develop when House and Senate members run naked through the taxpayer's money. Lesson 3: The President can threaten to veto it, but it is an empty threat. Congress knows that he isn't likely to axe a budget that took 18 months to develop. A line-item veto would work, but what are the chances that Congress would ever give the President that kind of power? Lesson 4: All spending bills start in the House of Representatives. During Reagan's administration, the House was controlled by the __________________ Party. (Please fill in the blank).

Regards, Shuckins
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: easymo on August 03, 2002, 02:31:43 PM: BTW on the subject of that great liberal LBJ (LOL)

Tapes: Incident that opened door to Vietnam war may not have happened
08/03/2002

The Associated Press

SAN ANTONIO — North Vietnam's 1964 unprovoked attack on U.S. navy ships, which opened the door to the Vietnam War, probably never occurred, according to tapes released by President Lyndon B. Johnson's library at the University of Texas at Austin.

Thirty-eight years ago Sunday, Johnson interrupted network television to tell the nation that U.S. warships in the Gulf of Tonkin had been attacked by North Vietnamese PT boats. Congress responded by giving Johnson the go-ahead to escalate war.

Johnson described the incident as "open aggression on the open seas," and ordered airstrikes on North Vietnam which opened the door to a war that would kill 1 million Vietnamese and 58,000 Americans and divide the nation along class and generational lines.

For decades, skeptics have debated whether the Aug. 4 attack really occurred, with some suggesting the Johnson administration staged or provoked it to get the congressional nod for aggression against the communist country.

Recently released tapes of White House phone conversations, which include 51 conversations from Aug. 4 and 5, 1964, when the Tonkin Gulf incident occurred, indicate that the attack probably never happened, according to a review of the tapes by the San Antonio Express-News for Saturday's editions.

Just another one of those Honest hard working Democrates
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: majic on August 03, 2002, 03:47:20 PM: In all fairness, easymo, there is no reference in that article to any quote or example from the tapes as to why the San Antonio Express came to that conclusion. (i.e.- what in those tapes gave them that conclusion?)
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: easymo on August 03, 2002, 04:31:06 PM: This is old news. Do a search.

LBJ was an able administrator. He directly affected changes that were long overdue. And where very adimerable. But to say that that somehow balances out a lie that cost 60 thousand dead, 300 thousand wounded, bankrupting the economy for years from that point, and tearing apart the nation in ways that continue to this day, forty years later. Is just plain laughable.
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: Sikboy on August 03, 2002, 10:55:23 PM: Quote
Originally posted by easymo
This is old news. Do a search.

LBJ was an able administrator. He directly affected changes that were long overdue. And where very adimerable. But to say that that somehow balances out a lie that cost 60 thousand dead, 300 thousand wounded, bankrupting the economy for years from that point, and tearing apart the nation in ways that continue to this day, forty years later. Is just plain laughable.

Hey Levi, do you know if Dr. Moise used to teach at UNC?

-Sikboy
Title: I remember...
Post by: GWH on August 04, 2002, 12:52:04 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins

Sorry guys, but Reagan didn't drive up the deficits and the national debt. Congress did that.

Reagan could have vetoed any budget bill unacceptable to him, but he did not. IIRC, Reagan actually complained on at least one occasion that a Congressional budget proposal didn't have enough spending for his liking. The House Appropriations Committee determined that if Congress had let Reagan's budgets go through as he proposed, the national debt would have been approximately $29 billion higher than it was when Reagan left office.

This doesn't absolve Congress (and let's not forget that from 1981 through 1986 the Republicans controlled the Senate) of its own irresponsible spending habits, but Reagan certainly bears some of the blame for the situation, too. The behavior of the Reagan Administration towards this issue shot big holes into the GOP platform position of conservative fiscal responsibility/smaller government.
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: mietla on August 04, 2002, 01:07:05 AM: what is the "Environmental Engineer"? Sounds like a contradiction of terms.

What do you take your money for? Hope not "government work".
Title: Who was the Best President? Clinton?
Post by: Eagler on August 04, 2002, 09:29:05 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Fishu
Kieran,

All im saying, is that I can't believe those two puppets made it that far.
Couldn't US have voted for better ones?
Is it just that they had alot bigger budget than others and thats all that did matter?

I just don't understand how bush jr. became elected.. it's still beyond me.
Gore wasn't strong looking candidate either.. seemingly a puppet and not a strong leader.

what is it to you?

I sure as hell don't give two cents who/what is running Finland or any other half backwards outpost east of the Atlantic/west of the Pacific/south of the Gulf of Mexico/north of our Great Lakes ....

Get back with us when your country is a World Power, thanks