Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: brady on August 04, 2002, 04:00:57 AM
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Seriously I was killed from a 2 sec burst of 50 call fire from a P47, how messed up is that, Blow up mind you not disabled. I know this is not WW2 online we do hot have perfectly modeled GV damage effect's, but somthing I hope will be done to adress how GV damage is modeled in AH.
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Could be driver kill. Which GV was it?
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PzKfW IVH.
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Maybe it droped some bomb to
or u already been hit
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No I was undamaged, and I asked the piolet and he told me it was just a burst of MG's.
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PzIVH has the weakest GV armor in the game. :D
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You should learn that in AH, .50 calibers are capable of everything, even of being match to the cannons on one vs one basis :>
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PzIVH has the weakest GV armor in the game
Agreed, if you were in a Heavily armored tank like the m16/m3 you would have lived;)
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In all honesty, I do find the PnZ IV Hs to be the toughest vehicles. I just don't find them to be anywhere near as tough as I think they should be.
M-3s and M-16s pop.
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Well, they pop unless you have a M8 37mm gun, then the 50 cal is better for killing them:)
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Normally I use Mosquitoes, and Mossies pop M-3s and M-16s the the quad Hispano love.
Yak-9Ts seem to pop them pretty nicely as well.
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I don't know if it is modeled in AH but it was common for P-47s to kill tanks with .50 cals. They killed Pzkw IVs, Panthers and Tigers by intentionally spraying the planes and letting some rounds bounce up, penetrating the relatively unarmored belly of the tanks.
Maybe a riccoche round up throught he bottom of the tank perhaps?
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read the post in the general form tom,
it shows that the probability of a pnzr getting killed by 50 cal being lo but also what do you think the chances are of bouncing 50 cals off dirt or coble stone roads is slim to none. Also a pilot flying at 300-400 being to know that this happened
Pilot stories of killing tanks this way are just that. They may have believed but battle field examinations of destroyed and abandoned tanks show that 0 tanks were found to be killed by 50 cals.
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Originally posted by Wotan
read the post in the general form tom,
it shows that the probability of a pnzr getting killed by 50 cal being lo but also what do you think the chances are of bouncing 50 cals off dirt or coble stone roads is slim to none. Also a pilot flying at 300-400 being to know that this happened
Pilot stories of killing tanks this way are just that. They may have believed but battle field examinations of destroyed and abandoned tanks show that 0 tanks were found to be killed by 50 cals.
Wotan is exactly correct. This "bouncing" .50 rounds off the ground or road surface is myth. First, the rounds would be badly distorted, if not destroyed on contact. Second, a considerable portion of the energy would be depleted. Last, there's the geometry issue.....
Sorry guys, wive's tale trivia.....
BTW, I certainly sympathize with Brady. Last evening I destroyed 3 Panzers with guns only, FM-2 guns to be precise. I would have been greatly annoyed that a fighter with just four .50 cal MGs could knock out my tank and a whole column of tanks with guns alone. Shouldn't happen. I was happy to get the kills, but this does need to be addressed.
My regards,
Widewing
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.50 cals in AH are mostly BS
I really do doubt they were able to pop gvs, and have great accuracy and killing power at range IRL
and to counter that thing about us having much more combat exp than real WW2 vets, try b17 2
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why do you people insist the panzer MK IV was some unstopable monster tank, it was a med tank with thin top ,side and rear armor
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How the heck you guys do that? When I straffe PZs from the rear I ping the crap out of them, 3 passes and they are still alive. I usually only disable their tracks.
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John, it has been proven time and time again that it was virtual imposable to kill a Panzer IV with a 50 cal MG, and this imobalization BS by the same weapon is almost as ludicurious.
The facts point to this( and I hope I am all wet on it), GV in AH are modeled so that any weapon brought to bear on them and fired for long enough will disable them( or kill them), no mater what caliber it is. This is sharp contrast to historical fact, and to the laws of physics. nobody would stand for this BS in the aircraft modeling, i at a loss to see why it nead be so for the vehicals.
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Haven't flown enough in .50 cal equipped planes, but I find it very difficult to destroy tanks with straffing alone, even using the tiffie. Back in the days of 1.04, I seem to remember it being much easier - was there an adjustment between versions?
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Originally posted by brady
John, it has been proven time and time again that it was virtual imposable to kill a Panzer IV with a 50 cal MG, and this imobalization BS by the same weapon is almost as ludicurious.
The facts point to this( and I hope I am all wet on it), GV in AH are modeled so that any weapon brought to bear on them and fired for long enough will disable them( or kill them), no mater what caliber it is. This is sharp contrast to historical fact, and to the laws of physics. nobody would stand for this BS in the aircraft modeling, i at a loss to see why it nead be so for the vehicals.
Brady, the same can be said about all (at least I think its all) objects in the game. Try this offline, take a 109e with unlimited ammo, taxi up to the nearest hangar and start spraying with the 7.9mm mgs only...eventually the Hangar will be destroyed.
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How about the example where the PzKfW IVH crewman stands in the turret hatch manning his single ~ .30 cal MG and shoots down an attacking fighter:
A) long before the fighter gets in range with his heavy MG or cannon
or
B) the crewman survives under a virtual blizzard of heavy MG or cannon hitting the top of the turret and said crewman destroys the attacking fighter?
Not to mention the open-topped Ostwind gun crewmen.
You want all of this fixed at the same time, right? ;)
And the cross-country model that allows GV's to go down hills at about 100 mph or so. You want that fixed too, right?
Yep, the GV damage model often leaves one scratching one's head. Along with a lot of other things about GV's. So let's not be selective. GV's are subject to some things that they probably shouldn't be very subject to. GV's can also do some things that they shouldn't be able to do. Go figure, eh?
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Toad:
"How about the example where the PzKfW IVH crewman stands in the turret hatch manning his single ~ .30 cal MG and shoots down an attacking fighter: "
This hapens very rarely, yes I have done it, but only after landing a ton of hits on him, and yes it is kinda BS, but mor plausable than my points listed above about the 50 cal ammo.
"A) long before the fighter gets in range with his heavy MG or cannon"
Since when I have never killed a plane by landing hits on a plane with the MG 34 at ranges in excess of 1k.
or
"B) the crewman survives under a virtual blizzard of heavy MG or cannon hitting the top of the turret and said crewman destroys the attacking fighter? "
Ya this is BS
"Not to mention the open-topped Ostwind gun crewmen."
Now this I certainly take exception too I lose my turet all the time form all kinds of strafing atacks by planes from all angles, even the imposable Low angle atacks whear I should have the aromr protecting me, is the exception rather than the rule that my gun in the osty survives a strafing atack, trust me m8t I spent a lot of time in one last tour.
"You want all of this fixed at the same time, right? "
Why not, it is messed up man It has been for a long long time, HTC is capable of doing it right I am just asking for that, or for sombody to prove me wrong.
"And the cross-country model that allows GV's to go down hills at about 100 mph or so. You want that fixed too, right?"
That is a little off of course, but who does that hurt, it is fun and since for the most part the vehical spawn points are redicusaly far from the bases on most of the maps it helps get you their faster.
"Yep, the GV damage model often leaves one scratching one's head. Along with a lot of other things about GV's. So let's not be selective. GV's are subject to some things that they probably shouldn't be very subject to. GV's can also do some things that they shouldn't be able to do. Go figure, eh?"
So you are rationalising a glaring inacuracery by saying aw shucks we can 100 down hill so a 50 cal should be able to kill us to make up for that?
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NOTHING beats a Jug with 8 .50's converging at 650.
Masher
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Originally posted by brady
Toad:
So you are rationalising a glaring inacuracery by saying aw shucks we can 100 down hill so a 50 cal should be able to kill us to make up for that?
No. I'm saying it seems to me that you think all the things that bother you should bother everyone and should be fixed right away.
The things that bother other people shouldn't bother anyone and aren't nearly as important and really don't need to be fixed because those things don't bother you much.
"Selective indignation" perhaps? I'm not sure how I would characterize it.
It's sort of an offshoot of "selective reality" isn't it?
I could say that allowing a fighter to dive at 2-3X it's normal "downhill" speed is fun and doesn't really hurt anyone since everyone could do it. But I don't think you'd go along with that..... but tanks at 2-5 X their normal speed.. it's fun!
Spawn points? Hey, isn't REALITY the Holy Grail? Who would want to cheat a tanker out of making a 3 day long road march to attack an enemy facility? Not me! But I don't think you'd go along with that, right?
:D
Never said things couldn't be improved...
Let's all be selective. :D
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I did the same thing in a D-Hog about two weeks ago. There was no other damage to him. I watched him pull out of the VH. Took about three runs at him. Then one from about 75 degrees and popped him with 6 50cals. I think I was more shocked than him.
Seriously I think the armor of the Panzer is undermodeled and the Osty is overdone.
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Originally posted by SFRT - Frenchy
How the heck you guys do that? When I straffe PZs from the rear I ping the crap out of them, 3 passes and they are still alive. I usually only disable their tracks.
I'll describe what happened the other night at A41 of Baltic map.
We had a large group of GVs approaching the field from the west along the coast. I grabbed my trusty Wildcat (FM-2) with two 100 lbs bombs and six HVAR rockets. Why take a Wildcat and not a Jug or Corsair? 'Cause the FM-2, for some unknown reason, is one of the best GV killers in the game.
My first run was on the Panzer nearest the field. I salvo both 100 pounders and get direct hits. Boom goes the Panzer. Nearby, there's an Osti shooting at me, so I set up and make a vertical run at him, salvoing all 6 rockets. Boom goes the Osti. There are three more Panzers behind the dead Osti. I make my gunnery runs from their high 7-8 O'clock position (their pintle guns can't cover that position without rotating the turret first). I make one run on each, starting with the last one. After that one run on each, they are all smoking and immobile. I make another run on #3, he explodes. Same for #2. It took two more runs to kill #1. So, 5 GVs dead and I still have nearly 500 rounds of .50 cal remaining! Holy cow!!! I can't hope to do that with a C-Hog!!!
Maybe it's an FM-2 glitch. Maybe it's shooting depleted uranium, FSAPDS rounds, I can't say. But something is wrong with the modelling somewhere. Four fifties should not kill a Panzer IVH in two passes..... Probably not at all with guns alone. :eek:
However, until it's changed, I'm gonna feast on GVs. :D
My regards,
Widewing
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Do not forget one big thing here fellas.
I think after 1942 every single fighter plane in the united states air cores and airforce hed three diffrent types of ammo per gun.
1:tracer
2:AP
3:standard
1:tracer
2:AP
3:standard
1:tracer
2:AP
3:standard
or was it
1:tracer
2:AP
3:standard
4:standard
Not sure..but i KNOW for a fact it was standard..some .50's on the ground had the same ammo layout..same thing with most .30 cals.
THIS may be a reason why the p-478 kills "better" is the fact more AP rounds get slung at the target in a shorter time vs say 4 .50's
x2 the chance. with 8.
I dunno i think all GV's are god.
Its like this fellas..theres no such thing as cant be killed.
Think about it, you think our government said..ehh well this tank is to strong for us to kill them in any good number..so we will just skip those targets and go onto the next one"
diddly NO..blast em untill there armor gives out..blast em untill the bolts givew way..blast them untill the armount of ammo you hit em with makes em' sick..like 4 germans siting in a large bell being RUNG by 8 .50's
maby they just get sick and bail out?
i dunno.
Think what you want..but hit anything enough..it will that target will fail..time..and time again.
Also..about the belly bounceing "shooting ammo at an angle and geting a kill from the under belly of a tank"
its true..my grandfather did it a few times that he's flown.
Think about this..shot a round in the air..yeah it will stop..then come back down..going what?
you guessed it..faster.
so get the image of a bullet thats being fired while the planes going over 300 "300+whatever the nomal speed of the round is"
now..by each feet it travles..add 3 mph. "or was it 3 feet per every mile per hour?"
now add that all up..and you'll get your bullet speed.
Hope this sheds some light.
BaD kaRmA of the 158Th, out.
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Its also game play fellas.
Chances to hit hit % hit dmg.
see..your fm2 can only take 800 per wing "400 per gun i think"
imagine trying to kill a tank with that much ammo..if ya have fighters swarming you.
I have straffed a whirl wind 3 times last night and he didnt die..so tell me your secret fellas..cause ofnow..im thinkin' your all full of it.
or this guy was a damn god..maby he was because my other wingman couldnt hit kill him even with 8 rockets.
This games dmg systems got issues.
Game play, Game play, Game play.
Sheez..id like to die by .20's and not have my 4 .50's do more dmg cause i landed more hits..THATS bull toejam..its not fair..and it does NOT make sence.
x.20mm on f4u vs my 4 .50's on the wildcat, and i ALWAYS win head ones.
And that to me is bull toejam..i can stand defeat if its called for..what i cannot stand is a victory unaccounted for because of the game play..if that guys .20 mm hit my plane 3 times..there should be heavy dmg..so what gives??????????????????
Im sick of wining when the victorys are uncalled for..thats like being happy i shot down the lanC with 4 .50's and 40 rounds left in each wing..now THATS roadkill. and it happend.
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Originally posted by BaD kaRmA 158Th
Its also game play fellas.
I have straffed a whirl wind 3 times last night and he didnt die..so tell me your secret fellas..cause ofnow..im thinkin' your all full of it.
or this guy was a damn god..maby he was because my other wingman couldnt hit kill him even with 8 rockets.
No secrets, just roll in and whack 'em with guns, bombs or rockets. Marksmenship is certainly a factor, but the Wildcat is a real beast to begin with.
From tour 30 stats, when the event described earlier occurred:
widewing has 12 kills and has been killed 0 times in the FM2 against the Panzer IV H.
widewing has 6 kills and has been killed 0 times in the FM2 against the Ostwind.
widewing has 12 kills and has been killed 1 time in the FM2 against the LVTA2.
widewing has 3 kills and has been killed 0 times in the FM2 against the M-3.
Let's not forget that the FM-2 is a badass PT killer too:
widewing has 16 kills and has been killed 0 times in the FM2 against the PT Boat.
Gentlemen, the FM-2 is a monster in fighter or attack mode...
How did I do in other planes? Not nearly as well.
widewing has 7 kills and has been killed 2 times in the F4U-1C against the PT Boat.
widewing has 0 kills and has been killed 1 time in the F4U-1C against the Panzer IV H.
widewing has 2 kills and has been killed 2 times in the P-51D against the Panzer IV H.
widewing has 2 kills and has been killed 0 times in the P-51D against the Ostwind.
widewing has 4 kills and has been killed 0 times in the P-51D against the M-3.
widewing has 2 kills and has been killed 1 time in the P-51D against the PT Boat.
There's no question in my mind that I used similar tactics, but the chances of success where much lower in the P-51 or C-Hog than in the lowly FM-2.
Consider that the P-51D has two more guns and a huge advantage in underwing ord, and the F4U-1C has those mighty Hizookas with a humongous ammo load. Now tell me, why is the FM-2 so much more effective and successful? I'd like to know myself. I haven't a clue.
My regards,
Widewing
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I dont think HTC makes every plane quite even in being hit. For example it has been my experience a 109 is less likely to get hit by field ack than FW190 when strafing ack. Maybe FM2 is this way also?
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I was fighting ammo the other night, lvt2 vs m8.
His cannon rounds kept just bouncing off my armour untill I got tired of the noise and killed the m8 with the .50 in a couple seconds.
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you thinkthats bad I once killed a PNZ with one burst from a 109 f-4 , And I typed to the guy WTF? how did I do that?
What I think this must be is this:
The plane/boat/tank explodes once your pilot is dead , so the explanation is simple.
If you attack the PNZ from a high angle and if you aim just right you can get your bullets into the open hatch (if they've forgotten to shut it) the bullets bounce around inside a bit, killing all the crew, then the tank explodes. ;)
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Back from Holiday I see. Hope you had a wonderful, relaxing time.
Love your new sig! ;)
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Toad if you're talking to me, I never reactivated my account..
So I'm still on vacation from AH, I'll spend more time with my 1.5year old son now.
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Strafing to you and your buddy may two entirely diferent things.
When I strafe a target my aim is to put 1 to 2 seconds of solid hit sprites on him, all Hit's. So I would say to those of you "straafing " a tank or osty and geting no effect you may either be missing him, not hiting the turret or not geting enough hits.
BaD kaRmA 158Th, The allies did extensive field research into what killed tanks on the batifields in WW 2 in Europe. No tank's were killed from 50 cal fire, in fact I beleave only a couple were killed from 20mm fire if that many. The general consencious was that Allied JAbos were not overly effective aganst tanks at all. All this be we see on the History chanel about Alled Jabos wasting the German armored hord is just that.
Toad:
"No. I'm saying it seems to me that you think all the things that bother you should bother everyone and should be fixed right away. "
Toad I endevor to be as objective in my squeaking as possable, and the GV armor issue has been around since the inception of AH, I have been complaing it abot it with greater frequency lately because I am genualy geting tierd of it. Of course I do not think people should all feal the same way about certain issues as I do I am a realist to a point. Why for instance should P 38 piolets care that a German Bf 110 droping the same bombload cant kill a hange like they can? Not everyone has the same view points concerns or wories. I do try and be neutral in any argument that I put forth.
"The things that bother other people shouldn't bother anyone and aren't nearly as important and really don't need to be fixed because those things don't bother you much."
huh? where are you reading all this into what I have been saying. Am I bothering you personaly Toad, because your coments are devating from the genral point of this thread and seam to me to becoming personal.
"Selective indignation" perhaps? I'm not sure how I would characterize it.
See above
It's sort of an offshoot of "selective reality" isn't it?
Same
"I could say that allowing a fighter to dive at 2-3X it's normal "downhill" speed is fun and doesn't really hurt anyone since everyone could do it. But I don't think you'd go along with that..... but tanks at 2-5 X their normal speed.. it's fun!"
Toad man come on your reaching
"Spawn points? Hey, isn't REALITY the Holy Grail? Who would want to cheat a tanker out of making a 3 day long road march to attack an enemy facility? Not me! But I don't think you'd go along with that, right?"
Hey man all this thread was about was how porked the GV armor model is spawning tanks farther fom a base and giving drive times longer than flight times to it personaly seam a little unbalenced to me.
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It's not personal with me.
Personally, if it was MY game, I wouldn't have put any GV's in the game. None. :D It is, after all, an air combat game/simulation.
There is nothing any GV can do that can't be done by things that were already in the game. Troops = C47, Shelling Structures = Jabo work, Osty Air Defense = more/harder ack emplacements.
But it's not my game and if GV's are fun for folks that like them that's fine with me. I lose no sleep over players in tanks. "Fly what you like, like what you fly." :)
OTOH, you have only spoken for what you think needs fixing in the GV department.
I agree that the Damage Model needs work, particularly for GV's where the crew is exposed to fire from above. (Panzer turret MG for example).
I also would like to see the 100+ mph bug fixed and I see no reason for spawn points.
I can't spawn my FM2 at 10k near the fight.. why should you jump to the nearest base and get right into the action?
And re-appear instantly if I take you out with a bomb or two? I can't instantly appear overhead if your Osty shoots me down while attempting to divebomb you. ("You" in the generic form, not the personal "you").
It's "just not FAIR".
I'm saying two things, neither of them personal:
1. I think they'll get around to tweaking the GV Damage Model. I don't think it's a real high priority right now, given the other things already coming down the pipe and soaking up their time.
2. While dealing with the DM issues, I'd like to see them fix a few other things about GV's. Spawn points, Incredible Speed, Crew Vulnerability, etc.
In short, I agree with most of what you've said but I don't think you go far enough. I'm thinking you're pretty selective with what you want modeled in accordance with RL.
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Toad I also agree their are other aspects of GV modeleing that nead looking into, I was just trying to keep this issue foucused, in an atempt to right at least one wrong with the GV'c the armor modeling issue.
I except the bad and the good that may come from that.
I like GV's obviously, since I spend as much time in them generaly as I do fighter or bombers.
The spawn isuue is a game play isue of course how else can they get into the game, same for planes spawning continusly on the runway, things along these lines will always be present.Heck now you dont even half to look for GV's spawning you have a Big Yellow Arow pointing right to them, now thats realistic:)
Trease killing tanks is also very realistic, rocks doing the same thing, very war like conditions, the only thing thses obsticals did was make it harder for GV's to fight their way to a base.
Toad I am a history nut, and I have been at my hobby since I was a kid as I am shure many who frequent this board are, seing things modeled incorectly Is going to cause me to say hey wtf no mater what they are tank, plane ,ship...ect and I have done this on various issues in the past and I will in the future.
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Originally posted by brady
seing things modeled incorectly Is going to cause me to say hey wtf no mater what they are tank, plane ,ship...
No problem with that here.
Just realize that when you are selective in what you find "modeled incorectly" others are going to point out things that you are deliberately or inadvertently overlooking. It's not personal at all. It's game related interest.
In this example you have chosen to overlook a few things that are a "gameplay" not "realism" issue to you, ie: the 100+ mile an hour tank, while pointing out the GV Damage Model has problems.
I merely highlighted the omission. :D
Fix one, might as well fix all.
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Maby in some strange reason the Dm for the Panzer and Otsy got Reversed along the way?
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Personaly I feal the osty turet is taken out quiet easly, in fact I am generaly a little suprised when low flying planes t/o my turet on strafing runs that should be suriviable. I lose my turet all the time in the osty from one run by a 50 cal plane, if you are having problems doing this you may be missing the turet, not hiting it enough, or the osty is being resuplied.
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Originally posted by BaD kaRmA 158Th
I dunno i think all GV's are god.
Hail M8, God of war :D
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Ever wounder why the M8 can't kill a M3 or a M16 with AP?
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You know, there is one thing about this game that some people seem to overlook quite frequently concerning ground vehicles. The last time I checked, this game was called "Aces High" not "Ground Vehicles Low."
As has been pointed out numerous times, this game is about air combat. GV's were put in for 2 reasons. One, some of the planes in the game really have no purpose if there are no tanks or armor to kill. Two, they are there in case you get bored with planes.
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with this type of gv model though those planes designed to kill vehicles are mostly useless if you can up any 50 cal plane and plink getting kills as easy if not easier then those attack planes
as for the other point about being bored gvs are no cure for boredom long rides and quick deaths :)
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Well math, I think maybe anything worth doing is worth doing well, and GV's do have a big following, so why not throw them a bone...
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I agree with brady, if your gonna put something in you should do it properly
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Nice passage Furbal, I remember one about a poor fellow who was turning in his Tempest at the end of the war, I forget the exact wording but it was very touching and he wept over it.
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just cos its named aces high doesn't mean it just has to be about air craft
remember, the wider range of people to cater for, the bigger audiance you get, the bigger the audiance, the more cash you get