Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: sutpid on August 06, 2002, 04:55:51 PM
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262 needs something to fight. here it is DH100 Vampire.
Length 9,37 m ; 30,82 Ft
Height 2,69 m ; 8,85 Ft
Wingspan 11,58 m ; 38,09 Ft
Wing Area 24,34 sq m ; 29,11 sq Yds
Engine 1 De Havilland Goblin 3 turbojet (1520 Kg/s)
Weapons 4 20mm cannons ; up to 908 Kg of bombs & rockets
Empty Weight 3304 Kg ; 7294 Lbs
Max Weight 5260 Kg ; 11611 Lbs
Top Speed 882 Km/h ; 548 MpH
Ceiling 13000 m ; 42763,16 ft
Range 1963 Km ; 1220 mi
First flight 20th September 1943
N° built 3746
Versions built 19
Used by n° countries 26
Crew 1
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i would like to have a jet to fly against 262 but the fact is the vampire was not in active service during WWII..now there were some other LW jets that flew so i think they would be more welcome...the one with the jet on its back comes to mind... someone will undoubtebly post a pic below (plz)..
vampire one of my all time favorites...just love them 40s 50s jets..:D
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(http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/aircraft/WWII/salamander/info/flight.gif)
From this (http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/aircraft/WWII/salamander/info/info.htm) page.
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Already got one. :p
Mine (http://www.project-vampire.org.uk)
And the pic is of a T.55, not produced till the late 40's/early 50's.
Spider crab, original name for the vampire actually had it's first flight before the Meteor on 20th September 1943. Unfortunately De Havilland at Hatfield were too busy making the Mosquito for this new 'wonder plane' to get high priority so initial production and development was slow.
The damn thing is pretty crap all round anyway. No way I'd want to fight a 262 in it.
Gatso
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well what bout the g-41meteor
.Length 13,59 m ; 44,7 Ft
Height 3,96 m ; 13,03 Ft
Wingspan 11,33 m ; 37,27 Ft
Wing Area 32,51 sq m ; 38,89 sq Yds
Engine 2 Rolls-Royce Derwent 8 turbojets (1588 Kg/s)
Weapons 4x20mm cannons
Empty Weight 4865 Kg ; 10740 Lbs
Max Weight 7120 Kg ; 15717 Lbs
Top Speed 953 Km/h ; 592 MpH
Ceiling 13410 m ; 44111,84 ft
Range 1110 Km ; 690 mi
First flight 5th March 1943
N° built 3875
Versions built 26
Used by n° countries 14
Crew 1
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Thought I'd better expand on 'pretty crap'
Figures in sutpid's original post look like a T.11/T.55 trainer (the figure of 3746 looks about right. Total production broke 10,000 if I remember correctly) .
The F.1 had the original goblin 2 engine giving no more than 3,100lbs thrust. Top speed was around 540mph although it took an age to get there. It also had a very nasty tendancy to get itself into unrecoverable spins because of insufficient rudder/elevator area. (My uncle had to eject out of one because of this).
1st production aircraft was delivered on the 20th April 1945 BTW.
Meteor III a much more capable aircraft, and it was at least shooting at stuff, even if nothing was shooting at it by the time the war finished.
Gatso
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I am prety shure the only Jet left to model that would be worth the effort, and be worthy of inclushion,is the He 162, called by Capt. Erick Brown, the best gun platform of all the WW2 jets he flew.
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brady,
The Meteor Mk III makes more sense than the He162. It saw more service and action than did the He162.
That said, I think that both would be nice eventually, but for now I think we have enough jet/rocket wonder weapons.
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True Karnak, but they saw no action aganst live targets and their preformance was not all that hot, The He 162 is a much better plane for adation for a number of reasions.
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brady,
They attacked manned ground positions and I recall a mention of a dogfight with Fw190s that resulted in no kills on either side.
Yes, the He162 is better, but so what? Its German and we already have three German super weapons (though the Ar234 needs a serious, serious look at, and revision of, its role and place in AH). The Meteor Mk III was Me262 hunting in the final months of the European war, but there simply weren't many Me262s flying and they never encountered each other. The Meteor Mk III would be a very, very good thing to have for the "end war, super plane" scenarios that currently just end up being Me262s zooming hither and theither while P-51Ds, Spitfire Mk XIVs and Tempest MK Vs twitch around like sticks in the mud.
The fact is that had the Me262 ever been as common as it is in those scenarios the Meteor Mk III would have seen gobs of jet vs. jet combat against it.
It is true that the Me262 will have the edge, and by a good margin, but at least the Meteor Mk III doesn't suffer prop drag to stop it from bouncing a 262 like the Spit XIV and P-51D do, and it has 40-50mph on those prop fighters
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All right Karnak,draws line in the sand, and says He 162:)
Aside from all the logical reasions I think the He 162 should be added(not that I realy feal it is neaded or a priourity) I like it better:)
And I like to fly planes that handel well, and the He 162 by all acounts was a good gun platform.
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Meteor III should be next late war aircraft. It's the natural adversary to the Me262 as Karnak point's out.
But before we see that I'd like to see the Stuka, Tu-2, T-34 and some more early-mid war VVS fighters. That would be nice. :)
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If the Meteor would qualify for AH, then maybe the P-80 would as well. The USAAF took it's 1st delivery of P-80a A/C (not experimental XP-80s, but the real operational jet fighters) in Feb '45.
From http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p80.html:
"The first P-80A was accepted by the AAF in February of 1945, and the last was delivered in December 1946."
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"44-83028 and 83029 were shipped to the Mediterranean. They flew some operational sorties, but they never encountered any enemy aircraft. They were both returned to the USA after the war."
...its not the Shooting Star's fault the krauts were afraid of it...
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(http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/fighter/f80a-4.jpg)
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While it is clear that the Me 262 saw combat, and that the Me 163 did, it was in service and operational in 1944, and that the Ar 234 certanialy saw service. the adation of these planes was never a questionable one, and they are certainaly a blast to fly, and worth the mony I think*. The Allied Jets are a debatable mater, the Metieour did see far more use than any of the others operated on the allied side, howeaver her performance was not eactly steller, so how can we say that the real advesary of the 262 was the Brit jet when in fact it was those allied planes that actualy engaged it, the one's with prop's....
The He 162 was in service, did see combat( in the east and west), and did get kills. IMO it is now the last of the truly viable wounder weapons, the maned one's at least, (other than the baka, or a katien, maybe)
* The Ar 234 is a wounderfull plane and one of my all time favoate planes in AH. Howeaver with the new bomb sight using it effectavel as modeled is a bit of a problem, I hope HTC see's fit to add a Dive bomb sight for her.
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admittedly 2 planes operating in a relatively quiet theater of ops (& an unknown amount of operational sorties - could be just a few) is not much
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just looked into it a bit further - the two P-80s that flew in the MTO were actually YP-80a models, they were fighters (not photo recon), and one was later modified to be a QF-80 radio controlled drone...
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The Me-163 is acceptable because it has a generally recognized score of 9 kills? This with 300+ B models produced with many held for testing/training or crashed/exploded before they ever got near an operational unit.
But not the Meteor?
Hmmmm.. maybe it's just country of origin that matters, ya think?
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I dont think theres a "need" for any jet. But the 163 is modelled so put it in the game. :)
It wont have much of an impact.
http://www.flightjournal.com/articles/me163/me163_3.asp
follow the link it disspells some of the myths surrounding the 163.
Popular Wisdom vs. a Test Pilot’s Experiences
1. Rocket engines would explode without warning.
RO: engines were reliable and relatively safe and were adjusted so as to shut down in the event of an imbalance in fuel flow. If there was a problem in engine performance, it related to shutdowns, not explosions. The only instances of engines blowing were in early testing of prototypes or when they had been damaged in battle or by accident.
2. Leaking fuel could turn pilots to jelly, particularly if the plane flipped over.
RO: pilots, me included, survived overturned Komets, and an overturned ship would not necessarily leak fuel into the cockpit. When fuel contacted organic material, including skin, it ignited after only a few seconds. Our protective nylon suits would not ignite but were porous, and fuel could sop through to the skin.
3. Forward-mounted flaps were necessary to counter a negative pitching moment from the trailing-edge flaps.
RO: the TE flaps were trim flaps only, and the deployment of the forward-mounted underwing flaps did not cause a pitch change.
4. The Komet’s dive to speeds resulting in compressibility were often fatal.
RO: no fatalities resulted from this, to my knowledge. The Komets in such dives recovered after reaching a lower altitude that neutralized the compressibility problems.
5. As many as 15 percent of Komets broke up while pulling out of high-speed dives where compressibility had became a factor.
RO: no such fatalities to my knowledge.
6. Stall characteristics were abrupt and severe and taxed the skills of even experienced fighter pilots.
RO: the plane was equipped with leading-edge slots that eliminated stalls and caused it to mush forward in a mode that was immediately recoverable. The plane would not spin and was intentionally designed to be docile for low-time pilots.
7. Only experienced pilots could adequately handle the airplane at slow speeds.
RO: the plane was docile and friendly at slow speeds, and it had to be for low-time pilots to successfully land it dead-stick.
8. The Komet was not a successful fighter but future development would have made it a formidable interceptor.
RO: The 263—the next incarnation—had retractable landing gear, a pressurized cabin and considerably more fuel, but it never got beyond the early prototype stage.
I agree the 163B was not a successful fighter. Several hundred 163Bs were built,
but only 91 were operational as of December 31, 1944, and only 16 kills were attributed to 163s during the War. Note, however, that while under power or in a fast glide, the 163 could fly circles around any other fighter of its time.
In fact, the true contribution of the Komet was to high-speed flight as evidenced by the success of the delta-wing Concorde and delta-wing space shuttle. These Lippisch planform concepts live on today
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I've seen Vampire from quite close and seen it to taxi to takeoff :)
Quite small fighter
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I don't see a need for any jet either. Jets are for kids. :D
OTOH, I also pretty much dont' care what HTC decides to put in. Because it's pretty obvious they give some thought to the game. If they think something will work.. it's pretty much OK by me.
All that being said.. I do find it pretty amusing to follow the "decision tree" some people use to "justify" including their own particular favorites while totally excluding someone else's suggestion. ;)
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umm brady doesnt fly much lw planes.
He flies the 205 / ki-61 / p-38 and hurri
Since there was talk of the 262 way back before we got it he had hoped and suggested a 162 :)
Just a little fyi
we all have our bias's but they are not as transparent as they seem.
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Meteor............. :)
Hey Gatso, which part of Leicester do you live? That's only 20 miles from where I live :)
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Originally posted by sutpid
well what bout the g-41meteor
.Length 13,59 m ; 44,7 Ft
Height 3,96 m ; 13,03 Ft
Wingspan 11,33 m ; 37,27 Ft
Wing Area 32,51 sq m ; 38,89 sq Yds
Engine 2 Rolls-Royce Derwent 8 turbojets (1588 Kg/s)
Weapons 4x20mm cannons
Empty Weight 4865 Kg ; 10740 Lbs
Max Weight 7120 Kg ; 15717 Lbs
Top Speed 953 Km/h ; 592 MpH
Ceiling 13410 m ; 44111,84 ft
Range 1110 Km ; 690 mi
First flight 5th March 1943
N° built 3875
Versions built 26
Used by n° countries 14
Crew 1
(http://www.btinternet.com/~nexx/NF.14.jpg)
Sutpid, that's a Armstrong Whitworth Meteor NF.14, which dates back to early to late 1950s.
Gloster Meteor III is:
(http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/gallery/meteor3640.jpg)
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(http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/gallery/meteor3s640.jpg)
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Wasn't really singling out Brady or anyone else.
It was a general observation.
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Meteor III is a lot prettier than the NF series.
Nexx I'm about 3 miles outside Leicester in Birstall. I went to Univesity with a guy from Oakham. I just moved back... been living in the St. Albans area doing my degree the last 5 years.
Gatso
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The meteor's performance versus the Me262 is irrelevant as far as bringing it into AH.
I think it's a sweet looking plane and brings some balance to Allied/Axis late war planeset.
Who invented the fricking jet engine anyway? ;)
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Hans von Ohain and Frank Whittle at the same time. :p
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hahaha - just like Newton & Leibnitz invented calculus concurrently
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How does HTC rule on whether or not to add aircraft? Isn't his rule that it must of been combat active in WWII? If so, did the Meteor ever see combat and make kills?
The 262 and the 163 both had kills during WWII...
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the P-80 killed a lot of test pilots - does that count?
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IMO, the 162 is the only other choice if we are adding a Jet plane. It's was basically the only other jet plane to see a fair amount of air to air comabt.
Just a few things:
The Meteor Mk III was Me262 hunting in the final months of the European war,
The really means nothing. The RAF could have sent up Spit 1's and GLadaitors and said "look, we are 262 hunting!!" point being, if there are no 262's...it doesn't matter.
Meteor saw no Air 2 Air combat, making it hard to model IMO. It's hard to know how a plane preformed, when it never faced other planes. When doing normal flying, you aren't going to push a plane to it's limits, when you are being attacked by an enemy, and trying to be killed, I think you will...at least I would. The ture abailtys of this plane are unknow as far as I am concerned due to it not having any air 2 air combat.
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Meteor saw no Air 2 Air combat, making it hard to model IMO
You think HT models planes on pilot stories of how they pulled such and such manouver and then shot down such and such plane by pulling 12g's at 450mph? Thats what performance charts are for. Hard data does not come from combat situations.
When doing normal flying, you aren't going to push a plane to it's limits
...But when validating the airframe you do. you think they did'nt bother to test these things before they shipped them off to the front line?
There's no technical reason and I'm sure there's no lack of data. If there is I know a few researchers that spend lots of time in the central records office in london (where all the declassified military documents are kept). Sure they can dig up all the paperwork and specs you want.
Unfortunately I have a feeling that the Meteor is going to fall into the same category as the B-29 and be quite near the bottom of a very long list... I'm not holding my breath.
Gatso
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What is Aces High all about? Air to Air combat. Why add a plane that saw none? I am not saying that we 100% absolutly need He162. IMO, after we get Ki84, Ki44, some VVS planes, some planes from Italy, LW, VVS, and Jap. Heavy bomber(s), then possibly another Jet.
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The Meteor shot down quite a few V1's... how is this not A2A combat. I'm no expert but from other posts people have said it shot at stuff over europe during the late war.. is this not combat also?
I would be delighted if HTC decided to add it but as i said there is loads of stuff I suspect is on the list before it. It only comes in 10th or so on my own personal list of stuff I'd like to see. We don't need a 162... It doesn't do any job better than anything we've got and it doesn't round out the plane set in any area IMHO.
Gatso
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The Meteor shot down quite a few V1's... how is this not A2A combat
A2A combat is plane vs plane. Not plane vs. big target flying level and straight. I do agree, we really dont need 162, but we dont need metor either. I would like to see 162 though.
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I do agree, we really dont need 162......
I would like to see 162 though
I have soooooo many aircraft that fit into this category :D
I guess we all have our favourites, just keep all respective fingers crossed that mine/yours will be first. :)
Gatso
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we dont need anymore jets but the 162 is the only other jet that is credited with kills. All the others are fantasy what ifs.
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hey, how about that rocket plane in Il2-I've never heard of it till i saw it in the game. Seems infinitely inferior to the Me163 but has longer endurance.Fun to have a dogfight between those and 262s.
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Heinkel,
You are the first person I have ever seen describe the V-1 as a "big target"
The things were quite small and difficult to hit.
As I recall, the Mereor Mk III did have a fight against some Fw190s with no kills on either side.
All this is entirely moot in any case as HTC decides what to add, not us.
(I seem to recall Pyro or HiTech saying the Meteor would be added eventually.;) )
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These count as kills? From the 616sqn page:
the remainder of squadron arrived in Holland in 1945 they were tasked with Ground Attack Missions at which they proved highly effective. In the short time that they were operational before the war ended in 1945 they destroyed a great many enemy trucks, trains and aircraft on the ground
Sounds like a pretty good vulcher to me :rolleyes: :p ;)
Gatso