Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Dune on August 07, 2002, 05:54:09 PM
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From CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/08/07/environment.navy.reut/index.html)
Environmental groups sue over Navy sonar
Critics say system would harm marine life, alter migration
August 7, 2002 Posted: 1:32 PM EDT (1732 GMT)
Environmental groups say a new Navy low-frequency sonar could alter migration or other behaviors of ocean life.
WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- A coalition of groups led by the Natural Resources Defense Council said it would file suit on Wednesday to block the U.S. Navy from using a powerful new sonar that scientists say could injure whales and other marine mammals.
After years of debate, the National Marine Fisheries Department last month granted the Navy permission to operate its new low-frequency active sonar system, which is designed to blast wide areas of ocean with sound waves as it seeks to detect submarines equipped with "stealth" technology.
The Navy says the new sonar, also known as LFA, is needed to protect U.S. warships from a new breed of submarines that can barely be detected by conventional sonar systems.
But environmentalists said the new sonar produces ambient noise levels that might physically harm whales and other marine mammals or alter migration or other behaviors vital for their survival.
The lawsuit, which was to be filed in federal court in San Francisco, challenges deployment of the low-frequency active sonar, also known as LFA, under several federal laws, including the Marine Mammal Protection Act, the Endangered Species Act and the National Environmental Policy Act.
"If the Navy deploys LFA, tens of thousands of square miles of ocean habitat would be saturated with extremely loud and dangerous sound," said Joel Reynolds, senior NRDC attorney, in a statement announcing the lawsuit.
Sound measures
Reynolds cited Navy estimates that the LFA system generates sounds capable of reaching 140 decibels more than 300 miles (483 kms) away.
He said the mass stranding and death of multiple whale species in the Bahamas in March 2000 had been linked by federal investigators to use of a Navy mid-frequency active sonar system. Scientists worry the lower frequency sonar the Navy wants to use now could have similar consequences.
But the fisheries service, a division of the U.S. Commerce Department, said it approved the Navy's use of the sonar after determining that marine mammals were "unlikely to be injured."
It also said various measures, including provisions that the sonar cannot be used within 12 miles (19 km) of the coast and must shut down if any whales, sea turtles or other marine mammals are detected within about 1.2 miles (2 km), would help to ensure the sonar did not harm marine mammals.
The July decision by the fisheries service exempted the Navy from the Marine Mammal Protection Act, allowing it to operate the low-frequency sonar for five years, subject to annual review.
The National Resources Defense Council is joined in the lawsuit by the Humane Society, the League for Coastal Protection, the Cetacean Society International and the Ocean Futures Society and its president, Jean-Michel Cousteau.
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I always find it odd how just any group of people can sue the military in this country....
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So whales never used to beach themselves?
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu
So whales never used to beach themselves?
Good point... What's the historical record before the invention of sonar?
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If they'd install harpoons on the front then whales beaching themselves wouldn't be a problem.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I always find it odd how just any group of people can sue the military in this country....
Would you feel better if the military were all powerful and there was no possibility to redress grievences?
Or are you saying only certain types of people should have that ability?
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whales have always beached themselves but not in these alarming rates. its still no scientifically proven but sonar is believed to disorient them and maybe even drive them insane.
think of it like living all your life with a very loud annoying noise that you just cant get rid yourself from. You know those devices that emmit noise and drive pests away? well, sonar does that to whales, probably many times worse.
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Uh...Do any other nations have a submarine fleet? If the nations that have a submarine fleet are our allies then why do we need a sonar that kills whales? If this were in the interests of national security then I could understand the sacrifice of sea mammals, but given the fact a submarine attack against the US is about as likely as Eagler going Communist I question what we even need this for. Redundent.
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Some whales are nearly extinct, others are endangered. The cold war is over and the U.S. doesnt need a sonar that destroys the ocean's ecosystem. Until the U.S. wins a few wars to make up for Korea/Vietnam, then no sonar.
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report from AGW :
hell, i'd hate to be diving 300 miles away if they use this thing. Sure would bust up your eardrums good.
I love the wording of the annoucement...
"The Navy says the new sonar, also known as LFA, is needed to protect U.S. warships from a new breed of submarines that can barely be detected by conventional sonar systems.
"
Really ? Like which ones ?
Russia is too broke to maintain the 30 year old crap she's got.
France / UK are allies.
China/India/Pakistan are buying 40 years old Russian boats which are louder then frat party on friday night.
Also, if this is active sonar, do you really want to advitise your position 300 miles away ?
Sounds weird.
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Sound measures
Reynolds cited Navy estimates that the LFA system generates sounds capable of reaching 140 decibels more than 300 miles (483 kms) away.
the sonar cannot be used within 12 miles (19 km) of the coast and must shut down if any whales, sea turtles or other marine mammals are detected within about 1.2 miles (2 km), would help to ensure the sonar did not harm marine mammals.
wonder why they picked 12 miles and 1.2 miles..
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"hell, i'd hate to be diving 300 miles away if they use this thing. Sure would bust up your eardrums good."
No it wouldn't.
"I love the wording of the annoucement...
"The Navy says the new sonar, also known as LFA, is needed to protect U.S. warships from a new breed of submarines that can barely be detected by conventional sonar systems.
"
"Really ? Like which ones ?
Russia is too broke to maintain the 30 year old crap she's got."
So to alleviate being broke, well, wait, we all know She'd never sell modern attack subs for $$$. Oh wait, She already has. Maybe foreign export is the reason they are still funding their submarine programs?
"France / UK are allies."
UK is a safe bet. France of course would never sell top of the line submarine technology to a potential enemy of the U.S.A. Oh wait, they already have.
"China/India/Pakistan are buying 40 years old Russian boats which are louder then frat party on friday night."
Totally incorrect statement, in it's entirety. Not 40 year old tech. France just had a naval tech. mission visit Pakistan (see above). All 3 of these Nations buy top of the line diesel submarines which are very quiet. If we ever plan to have to ever operate near the coastlines of these Nations, we'd better be able to detect said diesel submarines.
"Also, if this is active sonar, do you really want to advitise your position 300 miles away?"
Without going into (any) detail, the return trace on this type of sonar isn't equivalent to the 'using a flashlight in a dark room' analogy used when describing most active sonars.
I agree about protecting marine mammals. The USN has some of the biggest pro marine mammal marine biology types working for them. These people are not recruited from within the USN. They are found in the civilian sector and brought into the USN for marine mammal programs only.
I have had some of my biggest tree hugger marine biology students (i.e. they graduated from UCSB and UCSC, etc.) wind up working with the USN and their marine mammal programs.
Mike/wulfie
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Originally posted by wulfie
The USN has some of the biggest pro marine mammal marine biology types working for them.
I have had some of my biggest tree hugger marine biology students (i.e. they graduated from UCSB and UCSC, etc.) wind up working with the USN and their marine mammal programs.
Mike/wulfie
Ya, I've heard all about these "marine biologists". They figure out ways to control dolphins in bomb harnesses, and have them make suicide runs against hostile ships!! :mad:
I say if ya want to ping whales into insanity, it's only fair that ya give the psychopathic whales some torps.
LOL, it would sure make taking a vacation on a cruise liner alot more exciting.
"Oh, look at the majestic whales!"
"..what the...what the hell?? Fish in the water!! Fish in the water!! Full reverse! Hard a' port!!"
LOL!! :D
Man, I gotta get some sleep...
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Thrawn I'm assuming you are joking?
The 'suicide dolphin' story is a myth plain and simple. I've seen USN marine mammals and their handlers in action. They have a couple of very specific jobs that they cannot be beaten at. They are also very very expensive. 'Suicide dolphins' would at the very least be a huge waste of $$$.
Mike/wulfie
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Originally posted by wulfie
The 'suicide dolphin' story is a myth plain and simple. I've seen USN marine mammals and their handlers in action. They have a couple of very specific jobs that they cannot be beaten at. They are also very very expensive. 'Suicide dolphins' would at the very least be a huge waste of $$$.
Mike/wulfie
Spot on, wulfie... Far too expensive...
http://www.spawar.navy.mil/sandiego/technology/mammals/
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I just wonder how many countries OTHER than the USA are able to build a "submarine equipped with 'stealth' technology" today ?
GB, Germany, France... and... ?
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http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/prot_res/PR2/Acoustics_Program/Sound.htm#Sonar
http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/prot_res/readingrm/ESAsec7/7pr_surtass-2020529.pdf
Take a look at the .pdf...the USN worked very closely with civilian marine biology types to determine operational guidelines/restrictions.
I speak from experience here - trust me when I say that just because 4 or 5 academics (marine biology type academics in this case) decide to 'sue' it doesn't mean they don't have an agenda...like 'appearing important'. Also, does anyone not believe there are groups who will sue the government and the military just because they simply loathe the government and/or the military?
Mike/wulfie
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BANZAAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII IIIIIIII
FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
SUSHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII IIIIIIIIII
:D
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Originally posted by wulfie
Thrawn I'm assuming you are joking?
The 'suicide dolphin' story is a myth plain and simple. I've seen USN marine mammals and their handlers in action. They have a couple of very specific jobs that they cannot be beaten at. They are also very very expensive. 'Suicide dolphins' would at the very least be a huge waste of $$$.
Mike/wulfie
What else would you expect the military to say? "Yes, in fact, we do have suicide dolphins."
And yes, I'm kidding. :)
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Its funny you people complain about france so much when the US sold nuclear reactors capable of producing plutonium to Iraq :)
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plumbob,
Name one reactor the U.S. 'sold'/help build/etc. to Iraq.
From http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iraq/facility/osiraq.htm :
"Iraq established its nuclear program in the late 1960s when it acquired its first nuclear facilites. Later, in the 1970s, Iraq was unsuccessful in negotiations with France to purchase a plutonium production reactor similar to the one used in France's nuclear weapons program. In addition to the reactor, Iraq also wanted to purchase the reporcessing plant needed to recover the plutonium produced in the reactor. Even through these requests were denied, France agreed to build a research reactor along with associated laboratories. Iraq built the Osiraq 40 megawatt light-water nuclear reactor at the Al Tuwaitha Nuclear Center near Baghdad with French assistance. Approximately 27.5 pounds of 93% U-235 was supplied to Iraq by France for use in the Osiraq research reactor.
The reactor was a type of French reactor named after Osiris, the Egyptian God of the dead. The French renamed the one being built in Iraq, "Osiraq" to blend the name Osiris with that of the recipient state, Iraq. French orthography then made it "Osirak." Iraq called the reactor "Tammuz," after the month in the Arabic calendar when the Ba'th party came to power in a 1968 coup.
Iraq began to expand its nuclear sector in the 1970's, but made little progress in the early 1980's, when most of its energy and attention were focused on the war against Iran. In September 1980, at the onset of the Iran-Iraq War, the Israeli Chief of Army Intelligence urged the Iranians to bomb Osiraq. On 30 September 1980 a a pair of Iranian Phantom jets, part of a larger group of aircraft attacking a conventional electric power plant near Baghdad, also bombed the Osiraq reactor. Minor damage to the reactor was reported. No further Iranian air attacks against Iraqi nuclear facilities were identified during the rest of the seven-year war."
...cont.'
Mike/wulfie
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wulfie, how are we supposed to offer a knee-jerk reaction when you throw logic in our path?? Sheeesh :)
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I was going to say something, but Wulfie seems to have already said it all. If you need anything, just tag out Mike, I got your back lol.
-Sikboy
40 year old submarines lol.
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I'm sorry, but Tom Clancy told me that our submarines can just flat out kick their asses!!
Are you saying Tom is... is... wr..wro... wrong?
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Since when is it the military's responsibility to be concerned with environmental impact? WW1 blasted acreage from Italy to the North Atlantic. I'm sure D-Day did wonders for the Normandy fisheries. And Anzio. And Iwo Jima. Hiroshima. Nagasaki. And more recently, Vieques. Don't blame the military. Blame the US fisheries service for destroying their own resources.
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What is the significance of the pic gofaster? A wrecked A-6?
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That's an aircraft target on Vieques, chewed up with 20mm, shrapnel, and depleted uranium bullets. There's also some tanks, trucks, a desalination unit, miscellaneous abandonded flak gun platforms, etc., being used as targets for aircraft bombing and strafing.
What I was really looking for on the Internet were panoramic pics of the coral that'd been cratered by bombs and missiles, but the enviro groups camped out on the island don't have access to aerial photography (yet).
There's alot of unexploded ordinance lying around on the island. There are also alot of little white crosses on Mount David near the protester's camp.