Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: brady on August 08, 2002, 02:04:25 AM
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I have seen the term Subjective armor model thrown around a bit and I got to woundering. Is it kinda like if I piss and moan at length about how the armor model in AH neads some revamping that eventualy the walls will fall at HTC and we will see a new one?
I mean if you shoot at it long enough, it is regesterd and tallyed and added to other's hit's from other players and then well the program say's the rear armor panel has had enough and just fails? Even though it is physicaly imposable for this to hapen?
Is this how MG 34, 303, and other rifle caliber guns get kill's damage or otherwise. Even on Virgine tanks I can get damage from rifle caliber weapons if I fire long enough.
Is this why 50cal rounds fired from outside the penatration envelope get damage and kill's?
And what about damage from low velocity 20 and 30mm ammo that had no chance of killing a tank.
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And what about aircraft MG's being able to rubble stone buildings...
And what about PzIVH's being able to hit and kill other PzIVHs at ranges above 3 000 yards...
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817-251-1540
Ask for Dale.
Cut to the chase. No one on the board can answer your many questions about GV's with absolute certainty. Might as well go to the source.
I'm sure all of your questions will be either answered or at least addressed.
:D
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YEA!!!! It's another Brady thread about ground vehicle armor!! :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Toad
817-251-1540
Ask for Dale.
Cut to the chase. No one on the board can answer your many questions about GV's with absolute certainty. Might as well go to the source.
I'm sure all of your questions will be either answered or at least addressed.
:D
I sent an email to the Q&A forum about the gv/objects damage model. So now I'm hitting the refresh-button every 5 mins to see if there has been a reply. (I figured this would be the perfect question for the Q&A forum)
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hey mickey dont read it.
His isnt the only one thats interested in this issue.
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I know HTC reads these forums, I know HTC are very reasionalbe and Geniunely nice folk's. I have had the pleashure of talking to them in the past ( on busisness, being on the CT staff required me to call them on ocasition), this to is busisness in a sence, but it is a comunitys reaction to a problem like this that is as much a game play issue as it is a matter of physics that will help decide I think what HTC will do about it.
HTC has always been very good and open minded about adreasing failings or problems in their models, as few and far between as they are, they are not above it, that is one of the best things about this sim. One feals that his points are heard and given the proper amount of attention.
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You are asking direct, specific questions; at least that's what it looks like to me.
The only people that know the correct answers work at HTC. You can wait around in this thread or one of the others for them to answer you or you can just pick up the phone.
I'm sure they'll be happy to chat with you about it, shouldn't take that long.
Then you can come back in this thread and tell us what they said.
Seems the fastest way to get the correct answers to me. I'm for fast, correct answers.
Why wonder when a quick call gives you the truth?
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I used to worry about this stuff brady. Just relax and accept the fact that this is a game. A very good one -and accept with resignation whatever is thrown at you because odds are, with all the intrinsic variables in play online, you will see disimilar results under similar circumstances as the norm.
Just relax and have fun.
PS: If you cannot have fun (quite a few round these parts insist on not having fun regardless of the circumstances), for whatever reason, then thats cool too.
Re: Examples -
I remember getting six direct hits on a M3 with the Hurrc 40mm cannon with no results (this happened several times concurrent). The M3 then procceeded to relieve me of my tail empennage with the single pintle 50 on the M3.
Another time I was an LVT4 at the spawn point of NMY PTs and I landed three good 75mm Howitzer hits under 100 yrds with no results only to have the PT finally disembowel me.
So many other bummers I cant recall.
Was it my connect? The NMY connect, the server bandwidth choking, bad code in the game? bad karma for killing all those kitties....dunno.
I just caved in and decided to have fun. I think thats the main thrust of the idea anyway..........
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Yeager I do have fun and ty for your concern.
I howeaver, and I am not the only one who thinks that the armor model is outa wack, and I hope that through threads like this one we can acheave some sort of remidy for the problem, thats why people post on preformance problems with the planes, guns, ect, to adress issues that are outa wack, HTC has a history of adressing problems like this and I hope that eveuntaily it will be fixed.
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Originally posted by Toad
The only people that know the correct answers work at HTC. You can wait around in this thread or one of the others for them to answer you or you can just pick up the phone.
I'm sure they'll be happy to chat with you about it, shouldn't take that long.
I'm pretty sure they have alot of stuff to do every day at the office, and the last thing they need is a phonecall from Sweden with me asking all sorts of questions about the current damage model.
Better to mail the questions to the Q&A forum...no? (thats what I did anyway) :)
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Yes Hortland I am happy you did that, I look forward to seing what becomes of it:)
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Actually, Hortlund, I'm pretty sure they'd love a break in their day provided by a phone call from Sweden. They sure seemed to enjoy chatting with the customers during the 4 days of the Con.
Has to be reassuring to know the game has that kind of reach. ;)
So, Brady.... correct me if I'm wrong... you're less interested in getting the CORRECT answers to the direct questions that you've posted in these multiple GV threads than you are in simply attracting attention to what you perceive to be a problem?
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I just called HT and he hung up on me...said he couldn't waste the phone line as he was anxiously awaiting brady's call.
Who would figure?
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ACtually the armour model did come up in conversation at the con. Was looked at and adjusted some 3 releases back If I remember the conversation correctly.
However I did not hear anyone talk about subjective armour. What I did hear was that armour is a LOT thicker in some places.
What you got hit with and where makes a huge difference. After thinking about this I relealised that HT was right. That I've taken several hits from front/forward low in panzer np. But 1 good hit on top tends to take it out of play.
As to bomb blast effect HT had a few words there also. Reminding me that the bomb is actually below ground level when it goes off. Energy would go up at a 45 degree angle. Makeing it possible for a moving tank to show as being in bomb blast area when you look back, and still be alive and have taken no damage.
Trust the game guys, HT knows what he's doing,he's got almost all of this stuff figured out WAY in advance.
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I mean if you shoot at it long enough, it is regesterd and tallyed and added to other's hit's from other players and then well the program say's the rear armor panel has had enough and just fails? Even though it is physicaly imposable for this to hapen?
This is not how things work, with GV armor a bullet either penitraits or not, looses energy if it goes threw ,then strikes or dosn't strike somthing else.
If a bullet can't benitrate the armor you can shoot somthing all day and no damage will be done.
Also understand there are 3 damage models in AH.
1 for buidlings.
1 for planes.
1 for GV's.
The GV model is the most complex and will produce the most random results do to it's detail.
As to damage models being subjective, they always will be, things like armor pentrating , do not need to be subjective, but what the bullet does after penitraion are very subective. Things like how many 50cals can kill a track are very subjective.
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If I write down all my Question HiTech and call you would have time to answer them It would not take more than say 30min.
I still dont under stand how damage is being done by weapons that were incapable of delevering the end results we see on a regular basis in AH to GV's.
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HiTech... tell him to call you. Pleeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaze!
I'll give ya another bottle.. promise! ;)
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Make it 1 & 1 toad 1 Craig, and 1 very old macalen, the stakes went up.
After I saw a post of some one not even knowing what the correct unit of ranges are in AH, any opinion on there thoughts on lethality goes down hill very fast.
Comes down to Hey I got killed in a tank and wan't to prove it shouldn't have been, instead of a discusion on what realy could happen.
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Originally posted by Yeager
bad karma for killing all those kitties
where's that picture when i need it?:cool:
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lol!
Whew! The stakes REALLY went up there........ but I'll consider it. Might be worth it, if you know what I mean.
One thing.... define "very old MacAllan" please. Old enough to vote or just old enough to breed? ;) Or will a mere 12 year old do?
Once I know that, I can weigh the whiskey against the ........ well, I can make an informed decision.
Later HT... really enjoyed the con. Maybe next year I can fly down. (crosses fingers)
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Great appearently my speady and lazy aproach to spelling and typing has finial let me down( It apears my teachers may of been correct) If I made a typo somewhear and it was inturpeted as that I have no knowledge of the game ranges and no base understanding of this issues at hand, becuase i refered to a distance in a form out side the game norm then I gues I must be all wet. Lets asume jsut for the sake of that I was wrong that all the distaances I quoted were off that I am clue less after all. Just whinning becuase I lost my ride.
Does that mean that questions like this are less revelent, have less meaning or are less true?
Why does 37mm AP ammo have no effect on the M3/M16.
Why do rifle caliber weapons disable engins on The Panzer and Imobalise them.
Why does the 50 cal consistantly disable, or distroy tanks out side of it's effective armor piercing enevelope.
Why do low angle strafing atacks from weapons in capable of pentrating the osty turet t/o that turet.
How come the tracks on the Panzer's are so easly taken out by MG fire, when they were almost never lost do this type of fire in the war.
What of low velocity Cannon fire from weapons that had no chance of acheaving a pentration having effect's on the tank's.
Clearly even If I knew nothing of these issues it changes the revalence of these questions not one bit.
Their they are HiTech thats it (aside from off topic question I had).
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for gods sake HiTec , give brady a King Tiger II so he can crawl inside his mobile fortress and criuse the country side destroying all before him with out worrying about the nasty little airoplanes buzzing around his head like flys.
44MAG
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The Original question was a good one.
BBS threads tend to degenerate.
In a perfect BBS world only people with something relevant to add would reply.
Probably after about 5 (original) posts no thread is worth reading.
I would not discourage anyone from posting what they believe. But I would strongly discourage people from posting solely to upset others.
Thats all I have to say about that.
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Originally posted by john9001
for gods sake HiTec , give brady a King Tiger II so he can crawl inside his mobile fortress and criuse the country side destroying all before him with out worrying about the nasty little airoplanes buzzing around his head like flys.
44MAG
but wouldn't he get more pissed off that his 'mobile fortress' gets taken out by a .50 cal plane?;)
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Gee, maybe you should have just called HT right off instead of starting 5 or 6 threads on GV's and damage?
I'm sure he would have had time to discuss those questions with you... then.
None of the regular player base has/had correct answers to those.
So were you in search of knowledge in all those threads or just "stirring the soup"?
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Hey Toad, why are you all over Brady?
The gv and object damage model is flawed. Something is wrong with a damage model that lets you kill tanks with .50 cals, or one that lets you take down a stone building using 7.92mm machine guns.
Brady has pointed this out in a number of threads. It has gotten the attention of HT, that is good.
Now I must ask you, why the attitude? I mean you can just as well dive down on me or anyone else who have agreed with Brady that something needs to be changed.
You have been on his back (and mine) about how we should call HTC instead and chat with them on the phone. Instead of doing that I mailed my questions to the Q&A forum. This mainly for two reasons. First, because the Q&A forum is there, and everyone with a question about their pet peeve with AH cant go calling the office. And second because it is easier to discuss things like this (armor penetration models are extremely complex) via email or forums than talk about them on the phone. If Im sitting here writing stuff down, I can easily take 5 mins and go check my sources or whatever, I cant do that on the phone.
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If one is truly concerned about some issue why post 5 different threads asking essentially the same questions that no normal player can answer? Why "flavor" it all with remarks about "how long do we have to put up with this BS"?
Just go to the source. If they don't have time to talk, you'll never get past Matt anyway. That's part of his job description.
If some issue bothers you and you don't want to call, why not post your concerns in ONE thread and then WAIT a while and see if they can get to the BBS and give you some answers. Where's the need for a massive 5 thread/50 post assault? To me that's just trying to stir the ...... soup.......
Got issues? Good; post your example, what you think is wrong and why, any suggestons you might have, do it without the "attitude" and wait a while. Give them a chance.
Can't wait that long? Call 'em.
Just my .02.
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A phone call from one player ...
represents one person's opinion +) a thread like this presents support for that opinion and in this case one other person's errmm i have no idea what Toad is tryin to achieve ... +Q
Toad.. why does a part of gameplay that YOU do not partake in (and which likely doesn't affect your game) bother you so?
IT does affect other players who do play the ground war, and yes they also help pay for the same game u do..
SKurj
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Thanks Guyes.
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Originally posted by SKurj
A phone call from one player ...
Would have given direct, correct answers to the questions he has repeatedly spread throughout several forums and threads. Given that he had just CALLED with his questions and gotten the answers he could have posted those ANSWERS (and possible planned changes) and then there could have been an informed discussion, if necessary.
As it is, nobody really knows whats going or or what's wrong, but by golly we're all upset!
Originally posted by SKurj
Toad.. why does a part of gameplay
SKurj
It's not the gameplay... it's the way people address a problem and address HTC; Like a bunch of spoiled children, without courtesy, without respect.
THAT, sir, is why I feel personal contact is important.
How about this. Everyone post as if you were asking someone you really respect some questions about something they were doing that you don't understand and would like to know more about.
You'd never hear much from me at all in that case.
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I Can't recall disrespecting HTC or any other person in this thread.
edited +)
SKurj
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Read the other threads. Unless of course they've already been edited.
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I personaly have continued to reiterate my respect for HTC and despite showing a little frustration on certain subject's by the inclushion of "BS" in some of my thread titles, I think that after a couple years of posting on this issue a little emotional collor certainly did not hurt, I tryed to make it quiet clear repeadly that it was with great respect that held I HTC and their staff, I beleave their is even referance to that above.
Toad in trying to effect change it is important to garner the surport of other's, If for no other reasion to prove to myself that this was a just and true cause, that it is not just me alone who see's this, their are a great number of very intelegent and learned people who play this game and who's experance I have benifited from, experance we have all benifited from. A voce of one in a see of thousands even if spoken into god's ear could be dround out from the din, A collective and Impashioned voce speaking at once is hard to miss, espichaly when They are speaking the truth.
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Sure, Brady. Justify the blizzard of simultaneous threads any way you like. It isn't me you have to convince. :D
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""""intelegent and learned people who play this game """"
duh , yup yup , dats me alright
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Now Toad... how come it took you almost as many posts as brady in these multiple threads to come to the real issue you were having?
SKurj
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I agree with brady on most issues here.
(also isnt m3 pintle a 30 cal? dunno)
303's and 7.9mm etc shouldnt be taking out tanks. Claims for air attack kills of tanks have been shown to be vastly overated.Others on these forums have shown evidence for this.
We never see a statement from HTC to say the damage model is flawed or may need work do we? like now all he has 'hinted' at is that brady doesnt know armour penetration or ranges and his questions are therfore irrelevant.Little dissapointed by that sort of reply myself.
Im inclined to agree wholeheartedly with YEAGER here.
AH is NOT the all perfect flight sim so many seem to claim over and over since beta days that it is.
everytime something is added or changed they re start their 'dont question HTC , they know best' campaign, insulting any who question game behaviour, demanding they show proof only a professional historian has time to dig up.
AH is as i have finally come to accept a flawed programme that isnt a perfect reflection of what happened in WW2 the same as any other game in the world.I happen to enjoy it and so i play it.
I dont listen to these roadkill artists who claim everything is how it should be or really was, or how they have fired real 50 caliber m2's and taken out tanks.Everytime we question stuff its the same.Yet changes have been made and mistakes found.Sometimes they are corrected(NIK2) and then do we hear 'it WAS wrong but now its right' from those same people? nope. we are told that 'whining' made them change it.
its like a schoolyard in here.one good example is the damage model for p38s.The new model is perfectly correct now right? well why was it wrong before if the damage model is unquestionable?
does this mean that all aircraft are behaving as their real life counterparts did when hit? somehow i doubt it. but beware those that would ever dare to question it! lol
I now play AH with this veiw.
AH is the best online sim for my money.
The connects have got worse since the numbers rose above the 350 mark but are acceptable (for now)
The flight model is difficult to master and that adds to overall enjoyment but its NOT how it really is flying aircraft(come on people!)
Most planes behave in similar ways to the real things (according to some but not all test data) but not all do.
HTC seem to like the idea that the 50 calibre can do anything (wink)
Some US planes seem to be made for the american market, there ive said it :)
SOme planes dont seem to match what you read about them (spit14 and 190d9 and b17 for some examples)
Its my personal opinion the 190 roll rate decrease without doing same for other planes is a bad decision.(because i like to fly them for 1 thing)
Vehicles are a bit gimmicky in AH but a very welcome addition.
and finally.......
I will never see these WW2 online games played the way i imagined they would be (APART form in certain scenarios) because not everyone plays for the same reasons and the MA is a shootem up/checkers type game more than a simulation of war.
it does get easier to play once you accept 95% of whats put on these boards is conjecture and or some fool enjoying winding people up to provoke a reaction.Personally i try to stick to what i want form AH myself or think is a fairer addition rather than what i dont want others to get.
I'll continue to play and pay.Its not perfect but it is the best youre gonna get for now.I hope this doesnt come accross too negative but this is how i feel about AH after over 2 years playing it.
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My sentiments exactly, Hazed.
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It's called "mirroring".
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Hazed sumed it up prety well, In fact prety much to a "T".
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who was it on this thread who was complaining that people would complain that the plane they're in can't take out a gv if the damage model was more 'real'?
but what about those who are complaining that their ground attack aircraft can't take out gvs as easy as a fighter?
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Hey....anyone know how to spell "Anal"?
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One point to make on the "rubbling" of buildings.
Most buildings to my experience are made of wood frame structures, brick, and Cinder blocks. Very very few are constructed of actual large pieces of stone mortared together to form a wall.
Light Machine Guns, which include .30 MG's and 7.92mm's, are definitely capable of knocking huge holes and collapsing walls made of wood, brick, and cinder blocks.
I've seen training films from the late 30's and 40's that illustrate this point using a Browning .30 MG. And I've done the same myself 7.62 NATO and 7.62 Soviet Rifles fired in semi-automatic mode.
Once the structual integrity of a building is compromised, they tend to come apart quite easily.
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What about the big facotry buildings verm? you know the ones with 3-4 chimneys...wood too?
And you show me a building, wooden or stone, corresponding in size to the ones we have in AH that you can rubble with 200-300 rounds of .50cal and/or 7.92mm.
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show me a aircraft hanger like we have in AH that take 3000# of bombs to knock down and can be rebuilt in 15 min
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Hortlund.....
Could you explain to me why this is so important to you and why you have such difficulty enjoying this sim while the obvious majority does not share in your pain?
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Would you have said the same thing if the P-51D had a weirdness that knocked its tails off with the first ping of a .50 round, and that encouraged people to spray behind every P-51D they see?
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"So what? We don't care" criteria seems a bit pitiful for an excuse to be careless to other people's concerns on GV gameplay, wouldn't you agree?
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Although I have had issues regarding gameplay, I have never felt the need to torture other BBS readers with the BBS equivelant of Chinese Water Torture.
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chinese bad spelling torture
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Good Lord Brady....you cant possibly spell that horribly can you? You must be spelling the words wrong on purpose, right?
Please HT...for the love of cod.....we need a spell-checker in here just so I dont have to put myself thru reading the torture that is Brady's spelling.
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Originally posted by Rude
Hortlund.....
Could you explain to me why this is so important to you and why you have such difficulty enjoying this sim while the obvious majority does not share in your pain?
What are you talking about?
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Yes It is indead possable that I spell that bad, I should think the proof is readely available:)
I do appoligise for it I understand and apppricate your paticence, I do miss the spell checker:)
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Originally posted by Hortlund
What are you talking about?
Nevermind
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Rude hates to whine about the game but he loves to whine about other people complaining.
I guess it's easyer than actually taking part in the discussion. This way he can just insult the people who discuss and raise himself 'above' the discussion with huge self righteouss.
In fact, he has developed a trade out of it.
I guess that's one way of boosting ones ego, judging others..
Toad.. Now Toad is the biggest asskissing pom-pom girl I've seen on any board, WW2OL included. His favourite trick seems to be the weary 'call HT' trick with which he inclines to others that he's in such a good relationship with HT that _he_ could chat with him at any time he chooses. With his whiskey offerings he seems to think he's Moses with HT handing out the platters with commands straight to his hands.
While in fact he's just asskissing with a huge $ marked tongue and whiskey casings.
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Well Saddam, anybody can talk with HT during normal office hours if he's not busy. He'd probably even talk to you. :D
I give good whiskey to lots of my friends, too. Folks that I respect, folks that I owe favors to, folks that I like a lot. HT is one of many.. for all of those reasons, he qualifies.
Thank you for the "cheerleader" award; I'll put it on my mantle! If "asskissing" is asking people to show a little respect and consideration for others... I guess I are one, eh?
I'll probably never be able to be a disrespectful jerk towards people that are working their bellybutton off to provide entertainment for others. I'll have to leave that to other folks.. folks like you I guess. :D
Very manly of you to start a new BBS account for your diatribes. It certainly gains my respect and attention when a detractor doesn't have the brass to say what he thinks unless he hides behind a false persona. :p
Have a very nice day!