Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: hazed- on August 10, 2002, 07:23:09 AM
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ok i had an idea which may well be acceptable to HTC and bomberpilots an fighter pilots alike.
this is what i thought up.
As you know now there is a probelm in that the bombers and their pilots want to use the historic 'salvo' type bombing but even with the new 3 aircraft formations flying them to a base only to miss a hard target by the shortest distance and feel very impotent as a fighting force is really frustrating.
the other side of the coin is players who like to fly fighters having their fun ruined by a single player laying waste to a base like we used to have happen in say a lancaster.
so we see Bomber pilots requesting strategic targets like huge cities that can then be given a reason for being hit, so as to make bombing them actually worthwhile.So we have the two groups locking horns.One says too much influence on the game , one says too little.
well how about we introduce a new target. we make a large circular area around the airbase texture 'tile' and including it that can be bombed and the number or weight of bombs dropped on it is kept 'score of' much like the overall damage score of a factory complex.
when a base has received a huge number of hits it only then becomes unusable.
we would have 2 ways to close a base. either hit every hanger with precision strikes (jabo's etc) or place so much tonnage of bombs on the entire area so as to make it unusable.
This would be nearer to the way a base was closed in the real war. It would mean that as a bomber pilot you would still try very hard to hit the hangers etc (as it would still be the best way to close a base) but you would be 'adding' to your countries chances even if you get near misses.
with enough tonnage the base would start to be unusable.
This would simulate a heavy bombardment (cratering ,pot holeing of the base and surrounding flat ground),You could give a readout on a base like a tonnage% so the enemy is constantly aware on the amount of damage inflicted.
I realise this might sound impossible to keep track of but could not HTC basically keep track of how many bombs are dropped ina defined ring around a base and remove their number from a tonnage total? perhaps an invisible tile placed over the bases that behaves the same as would any hanger etc.Once a set limit is reached the base closes.
Id want this tonnage total to be absolutely huge (@50,000 lbs?)so that you would need many many drops but at least those that miss hangers etc would feel they are pushing a capture forward still.
laz might complain this is a concession to bombers but i feel its quite the oppersite. If anyone thinks that dropping 14 1000lbers all over an airfeild would have no affect on its opperational status they would have be crazy!.As it is in AH now you could drop a million tonnes and if they miss hangers they have no effect at all.This leads to a real 'whats the point' feeling which i find is ruining the old fun of bombing and if anything is a concession to players like laz .
well its just a thought like i said but what do you think? could it be used?
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oh oh oh +) i've heard something like this before.....
click my sig +)
SKurj
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Hi Hazed,
This sounds like the 'Tonnage on Target' feature from Warbirds. As a long time bomber pilot and CO of a bomber squadron I know full well the potential of the bombsight we have in AH right now and I think the current setup is fine. I don't want to keep harping on about it but those who complain they cannot hit anything are still using the mentality left over from v1.09 bombing. The new system is a lot more historical and requires pilots to use proper salvo/delay and speed to gain good results and it's not impossible to hit two or more hangars on one pass depending on the type of field being attacked. While my own squad tend to hit strategic targets we do also attack fields and I really don't see the problem.
What you propose may help the new guys but would make bombing incredibly simplistic and not very historical. At the moment to hit a field you need to co-ordinate either with other bombers or heavy fighters to finish the job you start with the bombers. Part of the skill of bombing now IMHO is not only the formation flying but the correct selection of salvo and delay and also picking the best lines across the field to drop your ord.
In the following picture I used a salvo of 14 with a 0.70 delay flying at 160 indicated:
(http://www.101squadron.co.uk/images/ahsquad/ah100802-01.jpg)
At a full field it is quite conceivable to destroy this field with 5 bombers which really is not that much. To use a tonnage on target system takes away the skill of picking out these salvo's, delays and lines of attack and I would be very much against such a system.
Bombers need to practise, my squad did and got the system working fine for us within a few nights practise. If anything now we have to spend more time in the norden sight I think it's time to introduce autogunners for bombers.
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Well said Revvin! I have been trying different loadouts, salvos and delays to see what works good. Last night I took out a FH at 22K (heading N with crosswind) with a salvo of 6 500lb, delay .7 . This is a half load of a B17. This was a small field, 3 FH. I would think that 2 B17 formations can take down FHs on a small field. Maybe 3 or 4 could take down everything.
Is there any way to get a good screenshot of the ground from a film? If not, it would be a nice addition to the film viewer.
Gunner
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Don't think there is GunnerCAF, the shot I posted above was done by slewing the bombsight back over target by re-enterign the calibration mode which is very handy for BDA. I'd also like to point out that where the first crater is shown is where my crosshair was when I pressed the release button and this drop was made from around 20k above the target as I rarely fly any lower than around 17k to allow myself some small protection from fighters.
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Of note, there seems to be a consistent response to bomber posts that 'The new method is more historically accurate' to which I'd like to respond that while it is, there were also usually over a hundred bombers attacking at once, even if it was a small target.
Either make some concessions for that for us bomber folk, or essentially push us out of the game altogether. I understand that alternative is attractive to many fighter pilots, something that saddens me.
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how about droping on runways?
add crator damage!
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Either make some concessions for that for us bomber folk, or essentially push us out of the game altogether. I understand that alternative is attractive to many fighter pilots, something that saddens me.
5 bombers could close fighter and bomber ops from a large field I think that's concession enough?
Bendover> Yes crater damage is needed, in the above picture one of those runways would be closed and with a slight deviation I could have closed two.
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just posted an idea in this forum that might apply to 'hazed'idea, go check it out! sorry only read this post afterwards.
i think it may be appropriate to 'Hazed' idea, carpet bomb a base to make it unuseable with a large formation of bombers.
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Don't think there is GunnerCAF, the shot I posted above was done by slewing the bombsight back over target by re-enterign the calibration mode which is very handy for BDA.
Thanks Revvin, I will have to remember to take a screen capture. I also go back to calibration mode to see where the bombs hit.
If the film viewer had a view to see your bomb drops would be a good tool for bomber pilots to review their flights. Right now in the film viewer, the bombsight view points forward and is not movable. All other views center your aircraft and when you zoom the aircraft is in the way.
Bombing now has a learning cure. Most everyone is in a squad. You need to learn it, teach others, then put up some bomber groups. Just think of what a bomber group of 10 could do to a two fields in a short time. A little planning and good timing... sounds like a fun mission. Just think what 30 squads could do? ;)
Gunner
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its not unrealistic for bases to be closed by carpet bombing in WW2.
have you seen those pictures of bases in germany that were bombed? it really does look like the surface of the moon.
in fact isnt it more realistic to close a base due to overall damage rather than taking out 3 hangers? In the BoB hangers were destroyed but planes still flew out of those bases.but when the concrete runways of the jets in germany were hit and continually hit, late in 1945, they were eventually shut down.
the tonnage on target could be in addition to the present capture method.
players who still consider it fair that bombers use salvo methods but have to hit a minimum of 3 pin point targets can carry on doing it their way. but players who want to do it the other way, ie grab 20 players who all drop on the whole area can do it their way.
ive done missions with numbers but they can still fail because most are not proficient enough to hit keys targets. you can fly over with 12 or more bombers and only take out 1 building. Beleive me ive seen it happen.Those players who participate for the fun of large formations then realise they have had no affect and dont bother joining the next run, and who can blame them?
Ive started to try out the lead bomber drop with all following releasing at the same time with a bit of success here and there but most tell me their bombs harmlessly peppered the field or ran between targets.Is it really fair on these players to give them no reward for hitting the base? it doesnt have to be much, just something for the effort.
like i said before the tonnage can be set high.
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The way it is now is already geared towards carpet bombing and is more realistic in the fact that you have to use salvo and delays with the correct speed to get good results. With tonnage on target you simply have to point your plane in the general vicinity of the airfield and drop a full salvo with zero delay and have all your bombs drop in the same location and this is not only less historically correct but also moving back towards a more arcade like bomber setup.
In WW2 allied command didn’t just say 'hey drop where you like in the general vicinity guys' they gave the formations targets to hit such as factory complexes, saturation bombing of airfields. If the bombers did not destroy these targets then they had to go back again and do it all over again. Allied command did not say 'ah well chaps you got the bombs in the general area its ok we'll pretend the target is dead'
My own squad has also practised 'dropping on lead' and it works rather well as long as the bombers fly close formation which we do and is not too much to ask when the bomber only has to fly the plane and not calibrate his norden. With 5 or 6 bombers you could make a mess of a large field, with calibration you can flatten it with good use of salvo and delay settings.
The new bomber systems are a huge improvement and something that guys who regularly fly bombers wanted, to change it back you may as well take away all the work that went into the v1.10 bombsight and give us back the boring arcadey old bombsight.
To change to tonnage on target now would be like snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
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I already mastered level-bombing. :D
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Originally posted by Revvin
5 bombers could close fighter and bomber ops from a large field I think that's concession enough?
The problem:
5 jabos kill fighters, and vehicles at a field, kill the town, vulch, and wait for a goon to show up. They can do this faster than a bomber simply carpetbombing the field.
The solution:
Bombers need to have some way to inflict more damage than the average jabo against certain targets. Those targets need to have an immediate noticable(but not crippling) effect on the game.
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My own squad has also practised 'dropping on lead' and it works rather well
Revvin,
Do you use VOX to call the drop? Do you think internet delay has much effect on dropping at the same time?
I have wanted to try this but have not had the chance. It seems like VOX delays are most time quite good.
Thanks,
Gunner
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Mitsu,
Well done, WTG!
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GunnerCAF> We use VOX extensively, we feel lost without it infact and hardly ever type. The lag really has never been a problem. We have practised this drop on lead tactic and employed it in the MA on numerous occassions and it works very well, infact tonight we held another squad night and 4 of us formed up and dropped on my lead and hit an enemy HQ, we targeted the main building with a slavo 14, 0.30 delay and the eggs dropped extremely close together.
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Revvin,
Thanks, now that sounds neat :) Another good reason to fly tight formations of bombers. One thing I like about this game is it does change, and there are always new things to try.
Gunner
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ya know... I don't really care that much how the field is closed but.... I really hate making it "unusable". It apears that "unusable" is what you are after. If a field is closed by some sort of "tonage on target" then it should immediately become captured.
lazs
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The problem:
5 jabos kill fighters, and vehicles at a field, kill the town, vulch, and wait for a goon to show up. They can do this faster than a bomber simply carpetbombing the field.
This aint a problem. jabos always could and always have been able to level a field much better then bombers.
This was true with the laser sites this is true now.
Them bish typhie raids or dhog raids or 190a8 raids or chog raids have always been a more significant part of base capture then bombers.
They (jabo raids) were done before 1.10 and the are done now. Thats a bs arguement and you know it. Either that or you havent been here long enough to know. After all thats what fighterbombers are for.
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Originally posted by Revvin
The way it is now is already geared towards carpet bombing and is more realistic in the fact that you have to use salvo and delays with the correct speed to get good results.
no problem with using salvoes if you'll read what i read its that there isnt much bang for your buck if you happen to miss, even by quite small margins.
With tonnage on target you simply have to point your plane in the general vicinity of the airfield and drop a full salvo with zero delay and have all your bombs drop in the same location and this is not only less historically correct but also moving back towards a more arcade like bomber setup.
people would only start doing this if the total tonnage on target is a very low number.Im not suggesting tonnage on target is by any means an easy amount.Also this would be in addition to the normal capture methods we have not instead of.
In WW2 allied command didn’t just say 'hey drop where you like in the general vicinity guys'
you'd be surprised.read about bomber command.
they gave the formations targets to hit such as factory complexes, saturation bombing of airfields.
YOU said it not me. This is exactly what im talking about. In real life if enough bombs fell on an airfield it was taken out due to the time it took to repair it versus the next raid that put them back to square 1.I think you have the wrong idea of what im asking for here.What im talking about is giving something to those players who cant hit a hanger bang on every run.Sure the less accurate drops should be less rewarding but they should cause some trouble for the enemy players.Half the time i cant find bomber pilots to fly with me lately online is due to the fact they say they cant hit anything.So i offer to calibrate for them and tell them when to drop.In WW2 this was how it was really done revvin the majority of the time.In real life the stauration of the local area also hindered the repair crews.Mines, fused bombs, duds, craters etc all stopped or degraded the effectiveness of bases.What do our bombs do in AH if they dont actually hit an object? nada.
If the bombers did not destroy these targets then they had to go back again and do it all over again. Allied command did not say 'ah well chaps you got the bombs in the general area its ok we'll pretend the target is dead'
you havent read any reports on what effect they now think the bombing actually had on production have you? :)
during the war they were told the industries are smashed because it was better for morale but it was discovered that most industries were in production in secret complexes or underground etc and that the aircraft industry in germany actually increased in production every year up until the end of the war despite constant attacks.
infrastructure: railways/roads plus fuel refineries etc were among the hardest hit and easiest to see results on and some of these are area targets too.you could argue that this is all the more reason for not having players have much of an effect in AH but comon lets not forget this is a GAME and were are here for enjoyment as well as simulation.
My own squad has also practised 'dropping on lead' and it works rather well as long as the bombers fly close formation which we do and is not too much to ask when the bomber only has to fly the plane and not calibrate his norden. With 5 or 6 bombers you could make a mess of a large field, with calibration you can flatten it with good use of salvo and delay settings.
The new bomber systems are a huge improvement and something that guys who regularly fly bombers wanted, to change it back you may as well take away all the work that went into the v1.10 bombsight and give us back the boring arcadey old bombsight.
To change to tonnage on target now would be like snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
nope you really didnt read what i was saying did you. and btw not everyone has a squad to practice with.I do and really enjoy squad nights etc but most of the guys that join my missions arent experts in bombing or very well versedin formation flying for that matter.The point is though is that bombers are not much of an exciting choice for a player who thinks he isnt going to actualy hit anything important.
Think about it revvin we bomb to blow stuff up and as it stands if you miss by even a small margin you get to see a few craters. you dont get huge explosions or even get to see everyone elses bombs.every formation bombing mission is the same if you only see what you drop yourself too.1 or 100 bombers all looks the same when the bombs actually land on a base.So i ask you what is the big incentive to bomb?
Im like you id imagine.I love to bomb, I want to try to do big runs where i see loads of bombers just like the real ones in the war. I like to feel im helping win the war for the country i play for (and i love gunning :) ).However i set up a lot of missions for all players, not just my squadmates and this newbie lack of interest in bombing is what im noticing.I think we need something to address the problem.
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Well now you're done trying to insult my intelligence regarding bomber command I'll tell you've I've read more than enough to tell me tonnage on target bears little resemblance to real life, the only real connection you can make between ToT in AH and RL is that a bomber command alloted a certain ammount of ord to do the job, if those factories were still up and still producing bomber command jolly well sent them back to finish the job!
What you appear to be asking for is the same tonnage on target they have in Warbirds and it's totally unrealistic and quite frankly insulting to bomber pilots. ToT as you have described above would mean flying to the target, dropping your ord in the centre of the field then returning home, repeat and rinse until the base goes down. No skill involved just shuttle bombing back and fore with no need for salvo or any delay just get it over target and pump the fire button like you're down some penny arcade. Just drop in the centre of the field and magically all the targets are destroyed after you've made a few shuttle run's. I don't care how high the ToT would be set it would not be realistic I know I also play WB and was interested to see how ToT would work, when I saw it and tried it I found it to be complete and utter nonsense.
You don't need to be in a squad to practice, you can go fly the training arena and use the computer to show where your ord will go. This is not about a few guys knowing how to do it or squads practising together to perfect it comes down to a little practice and some appear to be too lazy to do this.
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Hazed, I agree with most of what you say and think the bomber role in AH is now next to useless. But I think old timers are giving up the role of bombing in greater numbers then newbies.
In the earlier tours I would take a bomber up to kill fuel ammo or barracks at the next base down the line from the one under attack to hinder them from helping the base under attack. With carpet bombing I can't do that anymore. I can carpet bomb and get 60% hits but can not do anything worthwhile to hinder the enemy so I no longer bother taking up bombers. I cut my bombing runs last tour by about 80%. This tour so far I have not flown one. I used to fly 200-300 a tour.
Also,If you check the stats,plane versus country,you will find that these 3 planes, B17, B26 and Lanc. are now being killed at more then twice the rate now as before the introduction of formations. But the C47 is being killed at the same rate. How did the gunners in bombers get so dumb so quick. When I am fighting in a bomber, it seems like I am using .22 cal. instead of .50.cal.
Combine that with drones that are so dumb that they can't get back in formation even if you go back for them and it becomes a lesson in frustration.
So until some changes are made that brings back some equity to the bomber role I will stick to Jabo's and other jobs although if I see one of your missions up I will try to join.
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1 of the posts from the thread in my Sig...(click it and grab a drink sit back and read...)
Tryin to come up with ideas to prevent a steamroller effect takin place...
Supply: The farther a base is away from HQ the slower the rebuild time. The more bases a team has the longer rebuild time also. If a team has fewer than it started with its rebuild time at bases will decrease due to shorter supply routes. Porking its supply convoys etc will still slow down the auto rebuild tho.
R&D: The better a team is doing, the slower its R&D score increases (what do we need new aircraft types for? we are winning. say the politicians +)
Base capture revisited: When the front encompasses a base that base does not automatically fall into enemy hands. Its Supply is cutoff (no auto rebuild) and all facilities at the base must be destroyed and troops dropped before it can be captured.
If a base or city has been encompassed but not captured, any damage inflicted on that area, does NOT affect the fluid front at all.
Bombing: Bombs made less accurate, larger blast radius. All bombs dropped within the facility perimeter are scored. Any that actually destroy a building recieve a modifier based on the building type. A facility cannot be destroyed unless the buildings are destroyed. What I am tryin to say is, 10,000 misses yet within the perimeter cannot destroy the facility.
Rockets score if they hit (not neccessarily destroy)a structure or vehicle.
I think this will give the Dive Bomber a better place in AH. With bomb inaccuracy increased with altitude. If buffs wanna fly at 30k, they'd better bring more planes and carpet bomb.
The extreme visibility range I think needs some adjustment in AH, its too easy to fly at 30k and spot that C47 at 3k below u.
Would also add to immersion.
SKurj
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revvin jees please read what i wrote. im not trying to insult your intelligence but what you said was quite comical for the fact you hit on points that are now among the most controversual of the entire war:
In WW2 allied command didn’t just say 'hey drop where you like in the general vicinity guys'
this is precisely what our RAF bomber command is accused of doing to cities like dresden and Hamburg.Both were of little military value and are in our modern age a questionable target for war.There are even accusations of it being terrorism against the civilian population.Im British and im proud that we won the war but there were highly questionable acts performed by all sides.thats all i was refering to (with sarcasm admitedly :))
Allied command did not say 'ah well chaps you got the bombs in the general area its ok we'll pretend the target is dead'
[/b]
and for this i was refering to the bombings that took place during Normandy landingd and many others where we attacked targets and failed to destroy them but went ahead with the landings anyway because high command didnt accept reports to the contrary.They apparently marked them as destroyed when they were still operational.I just thought it was kind of funny/ironic what you said.
and you seem to be of the opinion that i favour some old warbirds idea? well i can tell you ive never played it so that isnt true. If they have the system you talk of and it doesnt work then fair enough it would have to be adapted so what you describe doesnt happen.I agree that sort of thing would be lame.
However i still have to say it.If 18 lancasters flew over an airfield and dropped (hold on lets see here) either 262 x 1000lbers or even 334 x 500lbers(+18x4000lbers) all over the base that place is going to be non operational!! i mean comeon! :)
The base in AH would still have to be captured and covered/controlled with friendly fighters.
Isnt that in fact more realistic than having 3 hangers knocked down with a set number of lbs for each structure?
I dont want dropping anywhere on the base to become the normal practice here.It should always be secondary in rewards to good targeting but it should have some positive effect for the player who has flown in there and tried to help.I want people who are new to AH to try out bombing and feel good about what they have done, not say on vox 'what a waste of time!,my bombs just hit the runway' etc.
ET thnx for reply i think you understand what i mean here.I really do like the salvo bombing but even with my enthusiasm for the bombers im becoming less interested in them because they serve no tactical or strategic value in the present MA.too much risk for too little gain.
even if we threw in a few more things to hit at a base that could even have more effects like trucks and jeeps(for show),officers mess(slows recovery?), tower control or firestations (hangers stay smoking longer) or even negative perk value targets like hospitals or prisoner of war camps. ok i digress :)
as long as a new player see's "you have destroyed * insert target *" hes going to enjoy it a little more
anyway thats what i think
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this is precisely what our RAF bomber command is accused of doing to cities like dresden and Hamburg
I kind of figured this might be the direction and you've taken these events totally out of context as to what we're talking about and that is airfields. Those targets you speak of were to destroy the moral of the country and not to destroy a specific target such as an airfield. High up in Allied command did'nt really have a clue as to how accurate their bombers were early on in the war and really believed the target's they were setting were destroyed. It was only later on in the war that bombsights became more sophisticated with the help of radio guidance and the bombardiers becoming more skilled by virtue of the fact more were surviving as the war drew on and the Allies gained air superiority over much of Europe with the advent of planes such as the P51 and P47 with longer range. If Allied command was happy to carry on with this indiscriminate bombing as you describe then the bombsight would never have improved or the need for pathfinding forces to be employed they would have carried on bombing willy nilly happy to pretend that the targets were dead.
and for this i was refering to the bombings that took place during Normandy landingd and many others where we attacked targets and failed to destroy them but went ahead with the landings anyway because high command didnt accept reports to the contrary.They apparently marked them as destroyed when they were still operational.I just thought it was kind of funny/ironic what you said
And you change the context of the topic again, you spoke of airfields in your first post and not of the Normandy landings :rolleyes: They were hardly going to halt the Normandy landings because during the operation the bombers missed some of their targets, they could only feign an attack at Calais while the floating dock was being towed into the bay around Normandy. The weather was changing for the worst and they had to go it was a case of now or never or at least now or wait until next year and hope the Germans don't get their acttogether in the meantime and bomb the hell out of the troops and armour assembled for the invasion. As it was the bad weather a few days after destroyed the American's floating bridge to the shore and very near destroyed the Britsh one too.
The base in AH would still have to be captured and covered/controlled with friendly fighters.
Isnt that in fact more realistic than having 3 hangers knocked down with a set number of lbs for each structure?
3 hangars killed by a thoughtful use of salvo and delay and executed with proper calibration or killed because someone dropped the right ammount of ord to tip the scales to pretend the hangar is dead? :rolleyes:
I dont want dropping anywhere on the base to become the normal practice here.It should always be secondary in rewards to good targeting but it should have some positive effect for the player who has flown in there and tried to help.I want people who are new to AH to try out bombing and feel good about what they have done, not say on vox 'what a waste of time!,my bombs just hit the runway' etc.
But this is exactly what will happen. Why in the hell would new players want to learn how to use salvo's and delay's and how to calibrate to get accuracy when they just need to point and click. How in the hell would point and click make you feel good about your drop? If someone is moaning about wasting their time then they should use their time in the training arena and learn how it's done. It's not that hard.
Tell ya what I'm not as hot in a fighter as some of the guys here so for instant gratification I want the planes remodelled so that when I fire enough rounds in the general direction of a plane it goes boom.
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Current bombing model sucks...
Overall buffs contribute less to the war than even lasz
Sayin "go learn it" ain't cuttin it...
I have been here 2 yrs, i used to buff a quite often... now I don't at all.. no point to it. The rewards are too few and far between to make the expenditure in time and patience worth it.
Comparing fighter skillz to buffing skillz doesn't work +) In fighters alot of the time your target maybe no better than yourself so ya do get the odd kill... in buffs it seems very few are hittin on demand, and even then... so they take a hangar down or 2...
Now hop in a jabo, and u can take down any hangar anytime without fail, and if u want the field ... the jabos with support will accomplish the task much faster than your buff squad (even with support)
Skurj
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Maybe one-way suicide Jabo raids will be fixed next?
Gunner
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bottom line is...
so a few guys were able to hit a hangar or 2 with 30000lbs of
explosives. The vast majority of bombers in here, do not like
the new model. Why? Because there is no way to make sim bombing realistic. Is the sight calibration more realistic? Yes.
Is the impact of 40000lbs of bombs landing on an airfeild
realistic. Helllll noooo!!. I have posted this before,
i put 42000lbs of bombs on an airbase, and came away with
2 gunemplacements and an ammo bunker. 42000lbs of
explosives on a target the size of an airbase is a knockout
punch, period. Not an insignificant scratch.
Mitsus picture proves the point.
HTC took away precision guided bombs for the sake of
realism, thats ok. They still require precision hits though.
Thats not ok. A quick solution, increase the blast radius.
We all seen what 4000lbs of explosives did to the
Murrah building in oklahoma city. That was a concrete
steel-reinforced building. Hangars are tin sheds.
Im no chemist, but I dont think
Fertilizer bombs are the pinnacle of explosive potency, either.
Mitsus salvo kills everything on that side of the field! Not just
2 bomber hangars. The impact of mitsus expert calibration
and skill is a big fat 0! there are still bomber hangars left.
HTC, increase the blast radius, to mathc the realism of the
calibration, and the bombers will return to the skies.
I will guarantee huge formations, which is great for everybody.
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Maybe one-way suicide Jabo raids will be fixed next?
God, no, Gunner; that would interfere with Lasz' ability to wave his noodle substitute the way he wants to. After all, no matter how much he whines about how bombers shouldn't be allowed to be used in ways that he claims they never were during the war, he should be able to use fighters in any way he wants, including ways that they were never used during the war.
As I replied to Karnak's post in the A New Low in MA Balance (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=566756) thread in the general discussion area:
I was one of the Rook defenders at A20 when a wave of 10-15 P-47s came in and simply Kamikazed the VH and FHs. They didn't even try to survive. None of the 5 or so Rook defenders went down in the attack. That kind of crap is about as low as it gets.
*snicker*
And this is the kind of play that lasz2 wants to preserve with his fanatical insistence that level bombers not be able to affect fighter operations in any way.
If I ever needed proof that the transfinite supply of aircraft at fields and the ability of pilots to take off again without consequence immediately after being killed distorted gameplay, there it is.[/COLOR]
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how abouts we make the runways destroyable objects. and at 50,000 pounds of bombs is REALLY not that much how much can a formation of lancs drop
14,000 pounds *3
thats somewhere around 35-40 thousand pounds so all it would take is 2 lanc formations to take out a base. with the current system it takes a lot more tonnage and people t oremove a base. even if you can get your sight and delay set up perfectly it still wilkl take alot of tonnage to finish off a base. of course you could always just kill the flak and roll in the c47's with a large number of escorts.
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There are some changes coming for bombing, though it's more in the realm of tweaking than genuine change. I can't go into details just yet, as I've got to finish my "Interview with HiTech" article for "The Wargamer;" don't want to steal my own thunder, after all ;). My impression is he's been giving it time to see how the community wrings out the new system. Small changes will be tried first because they can be worked into the system without major code effort. Again without going into more detail, what the changes he has in mind will do is make bombers the platform of choice against field towns and strat targets, but keep the Jabo the preferred platform for suppression of enemy air defenses (i.e. horking the field itself).
A couple of things I'd like to see:
1) Make large structures like hangers, town buildings, and strat buildings fairly easy to destroy with bombs and rockets, but next to impossible for machineguns and light cannon (i.e. less than 37 mm) to take out. Add blast radius to bombs to increase their anti-structure kill potential. Keep weapons effectiveness against other field objects (fuel, ammo, barraks, radar, ack) the same, so that Jabo's would still be the preferred method of hitting these more pin-point and dispersed targets. Jabo's could still kill building...they'd just need to take bombs and rockets to do it, thereby reguiring more Jabo pilots to wipe out the town than bomber pilots.
2) Add much more light ack to field-towns and strat facilities, such that Jabo attacks on them are more difficult.
3) Make towns and strat targets larger (i.e. more buildings).
4) Do away with resupply of strat targets (this is the gamiest part of the current strat system, IMO.
5) Add crater damage, such that if a whole mess of bombers do drop all across the field, it will simulate the impact such mass raids actually had on airbase operations. It will not prevent a/c spawning (accept where the bombers get lucky and kill the hangers), but that's okay. Afterall, such raids were not out to kill the a/c on the ground necessarily -- though they undoubtably got them now and again -- but rather were attempting to temporarily prevent operations...and to kill as many pilots and ground personnel as possible of course. A skilled AH pilot could still take off in most cases, but would have to be darned carefull about it. Bombers would be more affected, because of their need for long take off and landing rolls.
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I have watched this game evolve for two years now. Early on there was 2 FHs at a small base and 1 at a medium base that could be taken down with 1K of bombs on each one. Three of us went out in B17s and took out all the fighter hangers at 6 bases just to see if we could and we did. Many complaints and 2 days later, the hangers were hardened and it now took 2.5 K of bombs to take out a hanger. Later on after more complaints about hangers being too easy to kill they added a third FH to small bases and 3 FHs to medium bases making FHs harder to take out.
I never thought that this was unfair. The hangers were too easy to kill and did spoil the game.But there was still many complaints about hangers being killed and then the name calling started. The bombers adjusted to the parameters of the game and kept on trucking.
Bombers have always been fairly easy to kill for the good pilots who know how to do it and I never had any complaints as to how often I went down as a hunka, hunka of flaming wreck. Fortunes of War. s all around. I could still take my fair share down with me.
The way bombers are now since formations have been introduced is that you ping his wing from your tail gun 20 or more times and he still bores in for the kill. Something has changed with the bomber guns and I don't know what it is but it isn't fair. At least in my way of thinking.
I think there needs to be a rethinking of what we are playing here and what the roles of each plane is in relation to the game.
Someone has to come up with a plan for strategy and tactics that fit the game and will always fit no matter what the new editions are.
All new additions should fit the overall game plan and not the game plan fit the new additions.
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The problem lies with those who wish to "affect the war"... before the fluffs bomb drops were made less laughable the fluffers could easily spoil and enrage. They did it by flying high over targets that had few or no defenders (the higher the alt, the lower the fighter density).
fields that were being furballed between were prime targets for the talentless to castrate. They simply dropped from alt with lazer guided accuracy. The worst that could happen was that someone might kill em after they dropped. They all loved this and defended it with a zeal out of proportion to their lack of talent.
Now... high level bombing is more realistic and can be ignored if it is only one little man (even if he controls 3 planes and a crew of 30).. If they come in lowere then they hit the fighter density.. Even I will kill em if there isn't anything else close to kill...
So... now that it is obvious that AH targets are jabo targets and the talentless suicide jabo...
Well... what do the fluffers do? they throw out the obvious and say... "well, if the targets are all jabo targets then we want our fluffs to be better jabos... better jabos in fact than... well.. jabos."
If area targets and "helping the war effort" aren't good enough for the fluffers then what the hell are they doing flying fluffs in the first place?
lazs
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fields that were being furballed between were prime targets for the talentless to castrate.
So... now that it is obvious that AH targets are jabo targets and the talentless suicide jabo...
Can't have it both ways, Lasz... if you accept that jabos are the proper way to take down a field, you have to accept that a small group of kamikazes can shut down your field. After all, you can't expect the FE to have to keep track of whether the idiot who augered 1 second after popping an FH did so because he never intended to pull out, or whether he just made a mistake and released his bombs too low, or lost his elevators to a defender and figured that he might as well make sure that his drop didn't miss, since there was no way he was making it back anyway.
You see, Lasz, you're just painting yourself further and further into a corner. First you whine about how horrible it was that the old LGB bombing system allowed buffers to pork airfields so you couldn't fly your fighter the way you wanted to, and claimed that all the buff drivers complaining that the old LGB-oriented target distribution made bombing pointless under the new bombing system and wanted targets worth bombing were really demanding that they be given back the ability to pork airfields so you couldn't fly your fighter the way you want to. Now you're whining about how other fighters have the ability to zoom in and pork airfields so you can't fly your fighter the way you want to.
Based on your moaning about how people are ruining your ability to continue your precious furballing (and the denigrating labels you attach to them in an effort to marginalize their positions), it's clear that what you want is the ability to take off in whatever plane you want, with all the fuel you want, from any field you want, regardless of what anyone else does to the field. So why don't you just shut up here and go over to the Bug Reports (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=14) forum and complain there that the game lets other people ruin your furballing fun... and then watch and see how many people laugh at your sorry ass.
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One of the best usages of carpet bombing I've seen to date was last night. I was flying a P51B over a knight base and watched a formation of b-17s drop their sticks. Either his drop was affected by the wind, or what he did was on purpose. Either way, the effect was superb. I was just rolling over the runway when his bombs began to hit. Since the knights were upping the usual array of base defenders to ward off our attack, the runway was littered with planes trying to get airborne.
All that changed as the bombs began to detonate...straight up the runway they went. The bombers must have knocked out at least 6 aircraft on the ground. It was a thing of beauty :).
Anyway, it just goes to show that the bombers are indeed still an effective part of the game.
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What a beautiful tale, Jonnyb...I love a story with a happy ending.
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Where are the big bomber groups we had hoped for with 1.10? These days I mostly see lone wolf guys in three ship formations. Fighters are less inclined to even go after them now - they are largely percieved as harmless unless you get in gun range. (i'll go chase them if no fighters are around to go after instead).
IMHO bombing has become quite lonely and boring work. (Yes I know how to bomb, I can lay em out as well or better as pictures above) to those who bother to do it, you are a damn sight more patient than I.
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revvin, I wasnt taking the subject 'out of context', if you'll notice you made a distinction between different types of targets by saying:
'they gave the formations targets to hit such as factory complexes, saturation bombing of airfields'
and incidently you said saturation bombing of airfields and promptly go on to say its unrealistic.make up your mind here.
anyway we have crossed wires.
I agree plain old dumping of bombs all at once on a base would be crap
what if we used a grid system where it covers a base.If 80%+ of the grid is hit with bombs this causes a shut down?
it would at least force players to drop in a spread pattern.
50000 tonnes would be too low(forgot about 14k lancs) but also if we did do tonnage on target and set it at say 100,000 to 200,000 tonnes to close a field(this figure would obviously need testing) this would require 3 to 5 players in lancs to work together(6 to 12 if in b17s) which equates to 9 to 15 bombers (lanc) 18 to 36 (b17s)and I think that this would in fact be saturation bombing which you yourself said was what they did to airbases. so where can you say its less realistic than popping 3 hangers and shutting all operations? which as you have seen 'some' players would be able to do alone with just 3 bombers and good aim(though god knows how they get so good :p).
revvin you can still do accurate raids, bases would still have our capture system, but for once think of the new players and of those of us who just cant seem to get a consistant behaviour from our calibration.We are no longer enjoying the game.do you see what i mean?
Im not asking for simplicity.Like i said i prefer carpet bombing type behaviour but with the effect of bombs which miss structures being absolutely nothing i feel its unfair to expect all players to be happy with it.You may love to practice offline for hours on end but the majority of us cant be arsed to put in that sort of practice.
either more small structure targets on a field that give a few perks out or some way to tell if base has been plastered into an unusable state is needed.
laz you are truelly the first person ive ever seen that actually has developed a predjudice verses a type of aircraft akin to racism in the sorry real world.Bombers are in the game. DEAL with it or go to the dueling arena where you have EXACTLY what you are asking for.Noone goes there to jabo bases or to bomb from alt....oh actually let me rephrase that.......no one goes there period.why dont you go and see if you can put the same effort into starting it up and getting others like you in there just as we all did trying to promote the CT?
of course you wont because you know it would never take off.
how about we start accusing the furballers of stopping our jabo and bombing fun? its laughable how dumb his rants are.
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and incidently you said saturation bombing of airfields and promptly go on to say its unrealistic.make up your mind here.
Yes saturation bombing by HUNDREDS of bombers over the course of days sometimes but if those bombers dumped all their ord in one place such as a ToT system would allow it would never have washed with Allied command, saturation bombing of airfields meant hitting EVERYTHING that's why they threw such large numbers because of the innaccuracy of the bombsight it had nothing to do with "oh lets dump X ammount of ord and we'll pretend it's dead" if a field only took bomb hits to it's grassy area's these would be bulldozed in a matter of hours (providing there were not fuse delay bombs unexploded...but hey that's a different topic altogether ;) ) In a matter of hours the field would be operational whereas if they did the job as Allied command envisaged the hangars, fuel and offices/tower/barracks would also be destroyed for the ultimate denial of use to that airfield.
I agree plain old dumping of bombs all at once on a base would be crap
what if we used a grid system where it covers a base.If 80%+ of the grid is hit with bombs this causes a shut down?
it would at least force players to drop in a spread pattern.
Well glad you finally see it, believe me this is what happens in Warbirds right now with their ToT, you can take a dump anywhere and have it count and pummel the fire button like you're at some cheap arcade this is why I am so against ToT because I've seen what a complete joke it is. The grid system is a more sensible way of doing it but HiTech recently said they are making the airfield target's more densely packed so even with terrible calibration you will still hit something.
The system we have right now is how it should be, infact it could be harder...a lot harder if I had my way. There really is not any magical mystical art to bombing in v1.10 it takes a little practice to yeild very good results and even using the 'drop on lead' type of drop still yields good results and only one person needs to calibrate.
As for Lazs, well this would be just another in a long line of thread's he's entered and been rude and condescending to the bombing community.
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shiva... I was merely pointing out that the talentless will allways seek out a way affect the game with the least amount of skill. I am also simply pointing out that the targets we have are better suited to jabo.
If I had my choice I would rather have suicide jabo raids to contend with tho since i a least get to kill several of em before the field is porked and I have to find another fight.
I think it is quite clear to anyone who looks at it objectively that the reason for suicide jabo attacks being on the increase is the decrease in fluff effectiveness at high alt... There is a vacumn created that is sucking in the talentless.
I really don't care how they play so long as my choices aren't affected too much.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
If I had my choice I would rather have suicide jabo raids to contend with tho since i a least get to kill several of em before the field is porked and I have to find another fight.
And, to some extent, that's why jabos bug me less as well. It's not that they are any more or less talented, but that to have any accuracy, they have to join the fight, even if it's at 500 miles per hour and a 70 degree dive angle.
They're paying for their increased effectiveness in the coin of increased risk.
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Interesting Thread.
Yes the new bombing method is had to learn, and still doing so.
************************************************** to try out bombing and feel good about what they have done, not say on vox 'what a waste of time!,my bombs just hit the runway' etc.
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Would love to see crater damage effect a runway and planes taking off. Just think, bomb damage to a runways would take say 20 minutes for repair. Since someone would have to fill in the holes.
One could even provide a maint hanger with bulldozers so you could repair a runway faster.
I have flown some in Fighter Aces 3, where they have damage to runways, if you hit a crater the plane is destroyed.
Just think big formation of bomber at 20k drop on an air field followed by Jabo with escort. If runways destroyed by buffs rest is easy
DarkHawk
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Originally posted by DarkHawk
If runways destroyed by buffs rest is easy
Which is the whole point of the game, no?
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if craters stopped planes people would just drop a bomb at either end of runways and 'game' the game. this would mean even a zero could stop planes spawning at a small base :). Really wouldnt be good if you ask me.
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Airwarrior used to have two ways to kill a base - one was to surgically remove targets, the second was to lay an obscene amount of bombs right along the runway.
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Who says you have to use the runway to take off.
DarkHawk
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just a idea...... how about making the towns larger with some hardend structures? was thinking of what used to be depots,seems they,as cities,would give the level bomber a dense target. would also give the buff a bigger role in field captures. another benefit would be that the lone milkrunner would find base stealing alot harder to accomplish:)