Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: hazed- on August 10, 2002, 07:36:19 AM
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I think its about time we had a better graphical display for bombs!
we drop a 1000lb bomb and we get a nice crater for it but there isnt even a flash of light or a scrap of material thrown up.
Worse still no other player in the game SEE's it!!
if your bombed you know nothing(ok sound is there) unless it hits you.
I would like to see something graphical to represent it and have this SHOWN to ALL players.
if im rolling down a runway and a bomber drops loads of bombs all around I'd like to feel im in the middle of them.If im the bomber id like to think that the other player would see the huge explosions.
HTC added the crashing debris to hangers and i thank them for it but isnt it about time they added a touch more to it?
Comon HTC we have graphics cards for a reason! :)
btw on the new partical smoke effects. how about partical explosions too? :D
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Agree 100%
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Wonder how far off a new game engine is anyway? AH still looks good in many ways but is starting to show it's age
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I'm pretty sure they are able to depict air/ground combat with better graphics than now, but I think that would mean a huge, risky leap for HTC to make.
Obvioulsy, one of the reasons behind AH's success in the MMOG market is its tolerance for low-end PC systems. The requirements have gone up a bit since I started in 1.05 :) I upgraded my computers only recently, but before that, I could run AH pretty good with my Pentium III 500mhz 320M ram and a GeForce2 MX at 1024x768 resolution 32bit colors.
A new graphic engine would mean more people to hire to do graphics and programming, plus losing some of the customers who used low-end systems up to now(at least for a short term until they decide to upgrade their PC for the sole purpose of playing AH :D ).
But I think there is still more they can do with the current engine. :) And I really hope we'd get some new eye-candy soon. The "ear-candy" we received quite some versions ago, the external sounds ( :D two thumbs up) via experiments with AHDX gave our ears some infinite pleasure! Now our eyes wait the turn.
;)
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concusion pressure waves would be nice touch..:)
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What do you mean no one else sees your bomb blasts?
I was sitting in a town the other night in the CT, defending it in an M8 from Hun gv's, when a countrymate dropped a stick from a Boston on them.
Pretty righteous series of explosions, which I both saw and heard.
Agreed, the technology exists to make the graphical representation more _realistic_ -- but at a cost, as Kweassa notes.
Splash1
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I think he is talking about the bombs that don't hit anything. I would be nice to see the explosions walk across the field when they hit. Right now you only see the buildings parts fly when they are destroyed.
Gunner
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Obvioulsy, one of the reasons behind AH's success in the MMOG market is its tolerance for low-end PC systems.
This cannot be overstated. Many people in my AW squad could not play AW3 with the machines they had when it came out. In a household where finances are tight, it can be difficult or impossible to justify upgrading to play games.
Plus, when you add more stuff to do, you have bigger teams. It's easier for the vision of the original game to become diluted.
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Originally posted by Dennis
What do you mean no one else sees your bomb blasts?
Unless you're within a certain distance when the bombs hit, you'll never see the craters.
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Originally posted by runny
This cannot be overstated. Many people in my AW squad could not play AW3 with the machines they had when it came out. In a household where finances are tight, it can be difficult or impossible to justify upgrading to play games.
Plus, when you add more stuff to do, you have bigger teams. It's easier for the vision of the original game to become diluted.
and what about those customers who HTC are losing because they try it for a day or so and lose interest because there are much better looking games out there? most friends i show the games to like to try il2 first because it looks so much better when you actualy hit things.They might try AH later after i assure them its a great game but lets face it how many people are trying it and dont have one of us shouting AH's virtues in their ear and making them try it?.
I know full well its the gameplay that counts but many just dont take notice of it if their first few goes on the game make them think it looks a bit dated especially if they see games like il2 etc.
basically what id really like to see is the full set of craters hitting a base from everybodies drops.We only see the craters for our bombs at the moment.We have it(all craters displayed) with ship gun craters and it looks great.
we just need to have all the craters showing up and maybe a simple breif blasts for bombs hitting, similar but not the same as the aircraft explosions.
Why do i suddenly request it? because ive flown bomber missions with 3 or 4 others all in formations and we all dropped a huge salvo but no one could see the others hits.Really spoiled it for me.
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Good suggestion. I'm hoping the particle smoke effects we got with 1.10 are a sign of things to come. Simple things like that do make a difference, and everyone didn't have to go buy 2.4ghz machine either.
AHs plane models are getting better and more detailed too. I think models like that KI-67 and the new Me163 I saw screenshots of are on par with anything out there right now (if not better, but I'm biased). My guess is that HTC will keep making models with ever increasing polygon counts, at then at some point just revamp the terrain and water.
Side note: I prefer AHs damage model to IL2s. AH just has a lot more ways to functionally damage an aircraft (IL2 does win on engine damage effects though). Sure IL2s is more dramatic, but it is still canned and as far as I can tell doesn't have as many gameplay affecting components.
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I'm sure we would all love to see a new graphics engine... but think of the logistics. HTC has a very small staff with Nate and Superfly as the only artists. They have lives too ya know? ;)
HTC said they were experimenting with bump mapping.. wonder when that will be implemented.
I'm wondering... would it be possible to hire additional "artists for hire" to put together a new engine? I haven't the slightest clue how much work goes into something like that or how big of a team it would require... Anyone have experience with that?
I've never heard of freelance 3D artists... but I know there are many talented people out there that could help out. Perhaps there are some AHers willing to help out for free if they have the knowledge. Hell, if I could, I'd help out with anything for free as long as it helps HTC (well, I'd work for beer too).
:)
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Very true, hazed. The first impression is always the most important in any encounters. I've also seen cases of people criticizing AH with something like 30 minute play time, commenting "the graphics are too weak".
In a purely economic way of thinking, HTC might actually be able to draw in a lot of new users with better graphics, up to the point where the new profits outweigh the consequences.
But I think it is sort of a 'mutual-trust' thing going on. Most of the old users started from Beta and they still are here now, and they are the most supportive bunch of people for AH which I don't think a "price" can be set on. Losing the old users due to PC specs would be a very big loss, even if more people would begin AH.
I think their agenda, therefore, is to keep a balanced level between their sympathy( :D ) towards low end-systems and people who want better graphics.
But even so, I agree that the graphics are beginning to sag behind a little, slouching to the 'low-end' side. ;) We need to beef it up a bit!
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Short summary of what HT said about it at the Con. When GF4 level cards become a more common the extras they bring will make it worth the effort to do a major overhaul of the graphics engine, which he plans to do.
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Yay!
We need a new general forum labeled "What They Said to Me at the Con" so the public non-con-attendees can get the inside scoop :D
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TOAD, is that true???
Well then we ALL know what to do know
If we all want kick bellybutton AH graphics we all need to invest in a GeeForce 4 graphics card
E mail HT telling him so
Then when 95% of the community all have gee force 4 cards, the can then get to work on a new engine or whatever :)
So what are you all standing here looking at the screen for
GO BUY A GEEFORCE 4 !!!!!!! NOW :D
We have the power to start the next big upgrade to AH and we could all get it started TOMMOROW :) :D
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HTC uses multigen tools to create models for AcesHigh, I'm not sure if they use another tools form multigen to develop graphics-engine,flightmodel etc, but if you compare the screens on multigen-site with AcesHigh you could conclude that they are using thesame graphics engine.
take a look
multigen (http://www.multigen.com)
btw: they have already implemented the most important thing which is particle sysytems, with particles you can create explosions etc.
Also the texturinging and poly count is improved on the latest models just compare texturing/polycount of c47 with SBD :D
they are on the right track, we just have to wait a bit :P
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would adding an explosion or two to bomb hits need a graphics engine overhaul?
would adding the explosionsfrom others bombs need a re write?
surely not, consider the water splash for bombs that we already have.
couldnt we do a 'dirt' one and while we are at it double the size of the splash/dirt thrown up?
couldnt we use the same programme that adds the explosion to a critically hit aircraft , change its apearance slightly and add it to the bomb crater programme?
instead of just adding craters you get explosion then crater?
I think the aircraft models are fine.I think the terrain is fine for now.The buildings are a little dull but are acceptable.Ships are good but possibly need a little more 'life' to them such as guns moving and pointing where the player controlling them is shooting.
if it was up to me id add as much as i could to what we have rather than wait a year for a major overhaul which quite frankly could destroy the feel of AH that we know and are so used to and is a much bigger risk.
If they add very small changes and they dont improve peoples overall enjoyment then they can be taken out again.
Ive never understood this notion that anything added has to be forced to work.
HTC has a very unusual situation in AH.I and others are prepared to help them test new stuff AND continue to pay a subscription! Most games have to use expensive beta testing.Here they can throw in a few new features and wait to see if they are well received.
Come on HTC, just a few things while we wait for this overhaul?
my suggestions:
1. exploding bombs (we have particles, lets have a particle mud/dust 'puff')
2. ALL hits/craters with bombs displayed to all players
3. damage to cockpit glass and or instruments
4. new engine damage sound file
5. exhaust puff on startup
6. dust thrown up by vehicles (over certain speed?) and wheels on touchdown etc
7. FLAMES IN the cockpit :)
8. better gun muzzle flash on ALL models not just new ones
9. how about a bail out option in burning tanks? maybe a bailing crew ? :P
hazed
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You meen like new smoke trails last version.
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Lets give HTC a chance to fix the CTD/lockup bugs first before we start asking for eye candy and a new game engines. :rolleyes: Yes, graphics are outdated, but compare to AW???? The graphics are fantastic compared to AW.
baby steps gentlemen, baby steps. I'll take improvements as I get them, cuz I KNOW HTC is working a hell of a lot more hours at their job than I am at mine.
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Originally posted by hazed-
Come on HTC, just a few things while we wait for this overhaul? hazed
Which would you put first, this stuff or the Mission Theater?
Just curious.
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Hit sprites need reworking, they are downright gamey.
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what i miss most of all is seeing other players in formation and somtimes enemy planes when you sneak up on them drop their drop tanks.
was always so cool to watch em tumble back but now when other players drop em they just disapear.
same thing for buffs in formation, dont see other players bombs
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Well, my opinion is, that I am an AH player DESPITE the old graphics engine.
Believe me when I say that I had to put the out of date graphics out of my head, and focus on the excellent product behind the visuals.
I expect that in 2002, my simulations should have graphical effects of the nature of IL2 and WBIII.
The fact that AH is so graphics engine..... retro (ie advanced for 1998) and I am still a customer is a very big complement to the HTC crew.
At the end of the day AH is a very well rounded and polished feature rich simulation.
Having said all that, I still would like better grahics and special effects :)
If you think you need a GF4 for decent graphics, check out WBIII on a $50 junk GF2. You may be pleasantly suprised :)
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are MA settings differnet to h2h, i always see crators and bombs/dts in h2h
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MORE POLYGONS FOR THE SHEEP!
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actually it sounds like a good idea but it should just be one or 2 new graphics every version...for the bomb graphics anyway. not some huge giagantic leap that will leave older systems wanting. or hitech could set up a high graphics version for newer computers and what we have now for older computers.
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I hereby publicly apologize to HT. I will absolutely keep my mouth shut about anything else we discussed.
I am sorry Sir!
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Originally posted by hitech
You meen like new smoke trails last version.
er HT i said on the particle smoke if you'll re read it :)
this isnt a demand for intstantanious update HT.dont go on the defensive please, its merely a few things i think would add to the AH experience which to me dont sound like too much of a problem programming wise.Obviously i dont know what it would take but if you were to tell me the present system is the best you can do until a major re write then id stop pestering you.
The problem we have as customers on this BB is whatever we say or ask for that isnt in the game we are immediately called whiners or time wasters or impatient or ungrateful for what we already have.
I think most of the people who have seen quite a lot of thestuff we discuss written before when you managed/wrote War Birds years back forget that some of us were'nt there and we dont really know what it takes to add stuff to this engine.
Im asking as a customer for a few additions and if thats ungratefull im sure i dont understand why.I like AH and id like to see it get better and better.Im impatient because I look forward to seeing the new stuff.whats so wrong about that?
seems to me people are too fast to jump down each others throuts.Ok so my dumb list would waste valuable programming time... so shoot me why dont you all :p
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Originally posted by hazed-
Obviously i dont know what it would take but if you were to tell me the present system is the best you can do until a major re write then id stop pestering you.
Now don't go all defensive or anything.....
But I'm thinking very, very few of us know what it takes to program a game like this. Additionally, I think very few of us have any idea of how much work it takes (and what other changes would become necessary) to make what we would consider a "minor" change. I'm thinking HT knows the answers to these quite well.
Originally posted by hazed-
whatever we say or ask for that isnt in the game we are immediately called whiners or time wasters or impatient or ungrateful for what we already have.
I think "presentation" is the issue here. There are lots of folks that can ask for things or point out potential problems or flaws without being called whiners, time wasters, impatient or ungrateful.
Then there are others on this board that don't have that ability.
And it is an ability. It takes a little planning, forethought, common sense and respect for others. It's a tough thing to do for those who habitually "shoot from the lip".
*******
Now, to inject a little realism into this... I think some of the stuff you mention would be nice. However, I'm mindful of the fact that we have a team of (basically) 3 researchers/programmers, 2 artists and 2 customer support people that comprise the entire operation.
We know they are deep into work on the Mission Theater and we all know there are only so many hours in a day......
So, my question above remains: Given that some of this stuff would be nice, do you prefer that they "down tools" on the Mission Theater and work on these items? Or should they follow the resource allocation plan that has obviously been thought about and implemented already and work these items in if and when they can?
There's a nice, mature question with no overtones.. I'm just curious.
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My priority wish list would be:
[list=1]
- fix the CTD's and hard lock-ups
- Bring the Mission Theater to AH
- add puffs of smoke to bomb craters
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What's this about not seeing explosions or shock waves with bomb impacts? I must be playing a totally different game than you guys because I see those animations just fine. Yes, yes...It doesn't look as nice as blah, blah, blah game, but they are there.
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Originally posted by SUPERFLY
What's this about not seeing explosions or shock waves with bomb impacts? I must be playing a totally different game than you guys because I see those animations just fine. Yes, yes...It doesn't look as nice as blah, blah, blah game, but they are there.
Superfly, during one of our squad practices, after about 3 bombs, no craters were visible or bomb impacts (except when the building exploded) with me and other squaddies...we had to take each others word for "hits" since nothing showed. This was in the TA.
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Superfly, do this:
spawn in an aircraft, then bail out on runway, go over near the HQ tower (inert target that cannot be destroyed on field) and have several players practice Jabo'ing it, with single bombs. After the first couple of bombs, you will not see anymore craters(assuming that they will not hit it directly, near miss), nor will you know that a bomb has been dropped.
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You beat me to it Superfly, because I see the craters and explosions also and a small shockwave around the crater although it does not move out away from the crater far it is still there for me. I even see the craters if I come to a base after the bombs have been dropped in the past few min. I don't know how long they stay visible but it must be at least 5-10 min.
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don't mean to nitpick +)
but the impacts of the cruiser guns is kinda weenie.. +Q
SKurj
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Originally posted by SELECTOR
concusion pressure waves would be nice touch..:)
The white ring around this bomb crater looks like it could be a concussion pressure wave:
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Originally posted by Kweassa
I'm pretty sure they are able to depict air/ground combat with better graphics than now, but I think that would mean a huge, risky leap for HTC to make.
Obvioulsy, one of the reasons behind AH's success in the MMOG market is its tolerance for low-end PC systems. The requirements have gone up a bit since I started in 1.05 :) I upgraded my computers only recently, but before that, I could run AH pretty good with my Pentium III 500mhz 320M ram and a GeForce2 MX at 1024x768 resolution 32bit colors.
A new graphic engine would mean more people to hire to do graphics and programming, plus losing some of the customers who used low-end systems up to now(at least for a short term until they decide to upgrade their PC for the sole purpose of playing AH :D ).
But I think there is still more they can do with the current engine. :) And I really hope we'd get some new eye-candy soon. The "ear-candy" we received quite some versions ago, the external sounds ( :D two thumbs up) via experiments with AHDX gave our ears some infinite pleasure! Now our eyes wait the turn.
;)
\
I still get 30FPS on average with that Setup. Early modle (coppermine) PIII 500 TNT2 1024x768 32bit and 256ram
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oh yeah please forgive me, that concussion wave and debris looks real impressive! almost exactly like a real explosion!
compare it to this and you really cant tell the difference!.....
sorry ihave to push it a little ;)
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Hmm... nope I don't see a concusion wave. Therefore, YOU'RE PICUTURE SUCKS! :p
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Hazed, you still haven't answered my question. I'd appreciate it if you would.
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Originally posted by hazed-
seems to me people are too fast to jump down each others throats.Ok so my dumb list would waste valuable programming time... so shoot me why dont you all :p
Hmmm,... Hazed, I actually was on your side with some of the things you said at the start of this thread so you should take your own advice and get outta my throat.
About the screenshot I posted above it wasn't directed at you and I said it COULD be displaying a concussion pressure wave. I don't know if thats what it is or not. Why don't you ask Hitech or Superfly if thats what it is? Since for some unknown reason they BOTH responded to this thread instead of 1 of the many other threads some of us wish they would check out ;) ;)
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Hmm.. maybe if the dusty smoke doesn't disappear in 1 second..
Actually, I think the explosion effects aren't that bad. When I view my bomb drops from a bombardier's position in a buff, the explosion itself seems pretty convincing... But it does disappear in about half a second and leaves just a gaping hole.
Maybe if the smoke trail rises up a bit higher as in hazed's picture, and lasts for at least 1~3 seconds and then disappear in a slow fade out??
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ok let me quantify what i mean.
we do have a bomb puff with little white shockwave and its ok.What i was trying to show with the picture is what you really would see if a bomb went off,( i wasnt slating whats been already done). BIG clouds of dust and debris, yes also a shockwave but it sure is a lot bigger than what we see.(SUPERFLY: er... the concusion wave has already gone past the camera :) hehe)
Im not trying to drive HTC to work on itright now this instant. Im merely expressing my thoughts on what id like to see and in essence that is beefing up the effects a bit.Now if we have to be perfectly eloquent in every request and brown tongue HTC thoroughly in order to even ask for something we may as well cut off our nads and become women.We all have different personalities, some angry some impatient some down right rude but we ALL PAY THE SAME so ignore 'em at your $'s peril.
Toad as to your question Id delay the mission theatre in favour of some upgrading of the bomb damage model, including area of effect, the looks of it and like kweassa mentioned some way to have it last longer than the split second display we have now.
I absolutely LOVE yes LOVE the IDEA behind the mission theatre but i really have reservations as to its success.
I really tried to help the CT get going by being there talking about it in MA, inviting people to try it, posting about it etc etc and after a few months i was becoming disheartened by the real lack of interest.Thankfully it has picked up but for a good 6 months it was almost deserted.IMO the main cause? people logged in saw 300 in MA and 12 in CT and thought id rather go where 300 are.
essentially this is what id predict will happen to the mission theatre.It may well be a success eventually but these new theatres take a long time to get going.With this in mind it really isnt something HTC should rush out.I honestly think they should start polling their customers on the BB to help them refine their ideas for it.If they produce a mission theatre that doesnt give us all what we really want from it,as in what we all imagine it will be like then it will go the way of many other arenas we've had.
Why do i worry it will fail? I'll tell you. Anyone whos a knight must know i put up loads of missions and i try to advertise their appearence (probably annoy a few for which i appologise) but this is the only way to get people in.You literally have to keep telling them or they ignore them(missions).
If theres 150 knights on i would be lucky sometimes to get 10 or more who actually want to fly in formations or fly 'as they did' in WW2.quite a few join and just wander off on their own courses or constantly ask what the targets are even though i generally give them targets in the description of each flight.Now through my experience there is not enough of our players who really like hard core mission play to warrent a successfull FULL time mission arena.Even though it sounds MADE FOR ME :).I only hope it really does take off.(btw there are times where lots get involved in my MA missions which gives me some hope for the future mission arena but it isnt always like that)
so to my priority list:
1. sort out the CTD if you can.
2. add any new aircraft (these are always appreciated)
3. improve graphics for damage/explosions (partical smoke an excellent addition)
4. start a Mission arena
5. further refine the roles for different types of aircraft(bombers/jabo/fighters must all have a purpose and a reward)
ok toady?
PS marauder i wasnt refering to you mate, i was reacting to some of the negative responses (one sort of inferring i was ungratefull for whats already been done),which incidently there wasnt that many.
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Originally posted by vorticon
actually it sounds like a good idea but it should just be one or 2 new graphics every version...for the bomb graphics anyway. not some huge giagantic leap that will leave older systems wanting. or hitech could set up a high graphics version for newer computers and what we have now for older computers.
btw this is precisely how i think it should be done also or an option to reduce any eye candy that doesnt affect gameplay.(ie not turning off smoke completely making players suddenly visible but making it solid sprite or something for low end comps) vorticon
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Hazed in your picture the shock wave will most definately be past the camera lens. If the game had all of the debris thrown up like in the picture with the number of bombs being dropped in a normal situation now with 3 buffs, there would be such a cloud that you could not see the base for several min.
Here is a picture of a bomb school I put on and the exposion if 1/4 of tnt (and before anyone starts I know on my website it is mislabeled the ATF agents have already rode me hard about it).
I took this as soon as the command "Fire" was given and the blast wave has already reached and passed me and I was 300 yards away. This by the way was just laying on top of the ground we did not bury it as in a bomb pentrating the ground.
By the way note the grey smoke at the top right, this is indicative of military explosives being used, civilian explosives are much heavier in fuel oil content and therefore produce black smoke upon detention.
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Originally posted by hazed-
so to my priority list:
1. sort out the CTD if you can.
2. add any new aircraft (these are always appreciated)
3. improve graphics for damage/explosions (partical smoke an excellent addition)
4. start a Mission arena
5. further refine the roles for different types of aircraft(bombers/jabo/fighters must all have a purpose and a reward)
ok toady?
Thanks... I'd think that would give HTC a much better understanding of your personal preferences than scattered posts about individual features.
In short, it's better input.
OK, Hazedy?
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If people are getting 75 frames a second and up ( Ive gotton complete refresh rate limitations 85 hz) Fps... well... I most certainly think that the computer has PLenty of overhead to play with.
The Graphics level can be upped to a more modern "look"... and still allow for high 30's frame rates.
These guys with pentium II 300 systems.. and up to 500 mhz systems.. really need to upgrade. My gawd.. you can get a freaking athlon 1.4ghz for about 70$$!! now..
The standard now.. IS at around 1.3-1.5 ghz...... everyone should get on the same page ya think?
Oh,.. and goto http://www.pricewatch.com Get a new motherboard,chip, and memory for about a hundred + 20 bucks... you'll have a system that will be 5 times as fast as the freakinn 300- 500/800 mhz guys..
It is true the age of aces high graphics is showing.