Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Widewing on August 12, 2002, 12:25:35 PM
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I have been using the FM-2 as my main ride this tour, and am very satisfied with the result to date. Losses have been relatively low, despite problems with momentary lock-ups that have resulted in at least 5 augers ( these seem to occur only when engaging bombers at low level).
However, I have also taken a shine to the F4F-4. Yeah, it's slower than the FM-2, climbs poorly and doesn't turn as well, being heavier. Nonetheless, those two extra guns provided much needed punch.
Indeed, as a fleet defense fighter, the F4F-4 has proven itself to me. It excels at killing low flying bombers and torpedo bombers (Ju 88 and Ki-67). I've managed a decent amount of kills against fighters with it. Remarkably, I've not lost a single F4F-4, other than one to a lock-up induced auger.
Yet, I see that this fighter still has a sub-one to one K/D. I know the -4 Wildcat is a much better fighter than the numbers portray. So, what gives? I suspect that it's being misused. This old relic has no business tangling with P-51s and 190s at 20k. It certainly suffers at the hands of E fighters, and Ostwinds take a heavy toll.
Against certain fighters, it does extremely well. The P-38L and Spitfire Mk.V being two examples.
This is one of those types that has a niche role. Fleet defense appears to be that niche.
Has anyone else logged significant time in the F4F-4? Any comments on tactics, usage?
(http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/g00001/g07725.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
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Widewing,
The F4F and FM-2 is a much maligned A/C in the history of WW2. Or at least horribly underated.
Unknown by most WW2 fighter buffs is the fact that the FM-2 had the highest K/D of American fighter A/C not the F6F or P-51. The FM-2 had a K/D of 35 to 1. Quite a testament to the fiesty little bird.
Frankly I find it hard to fly in AH because I do not have the patience to be slow and constantly in pursuit of faster A/C.
But it's outstanding performance in AH does not surprise me.
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I flew the F4F-4 for about two weeks starting from the day it came out last tour. I think I had a pretty respectible K/D in her too. However, I think I did well because she was new and everyone thought I'd be an easy lunch and once they slowed down, six .50s taught them a quick lesson. I have yet to step foot in the FM-2 yet, but everyone says that's a really fun fighter. The trouble is, it takes a bit longer to get to the fight in these slow fighters and generally means you can't always escape home unmolested. That's why I started back with my F4U-1, I can actually leave a fight and not be forced into new ones.
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Originally posted by F4UDOA
Widewing,
The F4F and FM-2 is a much maligned A/C in the history of WW2. Or at least horribly underated.
Unknown by most WW2 fighter buffs is the fact that the FM-2 had the highest K/D of American fighter A/C not the F6F or P-51. The FM-2 had a K/D of 35 to 1. Quite a testament to the fiesty little bird.
Frankly I find it hard to fly in AH because I do not have the patience to be slow and constantly in pursuit of faster A/C.
But it's outstanding performance in AH does not surprise me.
As of yesterday the FM-2 had a K/D of 1.23 for the current tour. That's among the best of the non-perk birds.
Being among the slowest fighters in the planeset, chasing enemy fighters is not in the cards. So, as soon as they open the range to 1.0k, I execute a flip reverse and show them my tail. More often than not, they do a hard reverse and come boring in. I guess they don't realize that this is a mistake. Their reverse just killed most of their E. Going against a Wildcat at anything near Co-E is, well, high risk at best. I watched a group of Bish FM-2s take on a horde of Rook Spits, Nikis and La-7s Friday night. It was a slaughter, dweeb machines falling like confetti (I'm a Rook). Usually, the Spit drivers cannot resist turning with a Wildcat, only to discover that the pudgy old fighter is one hell of a dogfighter. Where the Wildcat comes up short is in 1v1 situations against an E-fighter with a patient pilot. In this situation, the pilot of the fast fighter simply BnZs until he gets a telling hit in. The defense is to head for the deck and force the attacker to deal with the fact that the ground is unyielding. Over uneven ground, the Wildcat pilot can actually reverse his fortunes if he can sucker the fast bird into blowing his E. When defending a CV group, one can always retreat into the ack umbrella if things get dodgy when faced with a large number of attacking enemy. I like to orbit the CV at 8-10k. When the suicide dweebs arrive, I simply meet them halfway down. Even if I don't get a killing shot in, I'll get an assist or even a proximity kill now and then. Naturally, the Wildcat is a terror fighting in the canyons of the Pizza map.
It won't be long before we hear the term "Wildcat Dweeb".
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
Where the Wildcat comes up short is in 1v1 situations against an E-fighter with a patient pilot. In this situation, the pilot of the fast fighter simply BnZs until he gets a telling hit in. The defense is to head for the deck and force the attacker to deal with the fact that the ground is unyielding. Over uneven ground, the Wildcat pilot can actually reverse his fortunes if he can sucker the fast bird into blowing his E.
heh. :D
i like the fm-2, it's a nice little ride.
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I was flying a Mossie the first time I saw an enemy F4F-4 in AH.
I killed it.
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i.e. he didnt see you
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Oh, he very much saw me. Tried to get me, then tried frantically to avoid being killed, just didn't do him any good.
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F4Fs and FM-2s are good eatins!
-- Todd/Leviathn
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i poop on f4f's and fm2's.:D
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I find em a very cute bird. Like a beer keg with wings and a tail unit bolted on:D
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
F4Fs and FM-2s are good eatins!
-- Todd/Leviathn
Hmm... I find Spitfires a bit chewy, but I eat them if no Mossies are on the table.. ;)
My regards,
Widewing
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FM-2 & F4F are good birds; tough, good turn, good divers (FM-2 is a great camera too) and they performed very well when flown correctly, but the FM-2 may not have the WWII K/D record for US fighters. I still have not read of a combat loss of a P-61. I have read that none were lost in the ETO to any sort of axis action (against well over 300 kills by P-61s)...
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I first appricated the Wildcat during the Kuriels set up in the CT, I engaged a George, who I turn fought to death:) Then I did it 5 more times:)
I even fought 2 at one and managed one before the other got me, I noticed the Georges were using flaps( so was I). Great fun.
I would not use it the MA though, not because I do not like it I just prefer my Zero, for off the CV stuff, unless I nead a Heavy Jabo then I pay for a C hog.
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300 kills for the 61? where is that data coming from? just interested in knowing. I thought she didn't see much action. Also are those a2a kills or ground kills mixed in?
very interesting.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
F4Fs and FM-2s are good eatins!
-- Todd/Leviathn
hehe u havent meet my FM2. last tour i was 197 and 27 in FM2.
only bird i fear in it is the a6m2. i think they put 4 F6 50cals in it, them 4 50s got more punch then most 6 or 8 50cal planes.
whels
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The FM-2 has become my favorite fighter for defense. The only thing I have trouble with is that the four .50s don't provide much hitting power. Other than the armament issue, I haven't had the urge to try the F4F-4. I just see both of the names and I see two dogs, only one those dogs comes without a leash :) Outright, I would honestly prefer an F4F-3 for the lighter frame (another 4-gun bird, for some odd reason my favorite rides are the P-51B and FM-2, and if I take up a P-51D it's usually with the 4-gun loadout, and here I am wanting the F4F-3 over the F-4, all the while mentioning the "trouble" that four .50s have given me :confused: ). Maybe I'll check out the F-4 for a change and see what I can do with those two extra guns.
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Originally posted by whels
hehe u havent met my FM2. last tour i was 197 and 27 in FM2.
only bird i fear in it is the a6m2. i think they put 4 F6 50cals in it, them 4 50s got more punch then most 6 or 8 50cal planes.
whels
That's a great score Whels. These are some baaad airplanes! And, talk about the killing power of those guns; the F4F-4 is pretty impressive too. The other evening I shot down 2 Lancs and three Ju 88s, and still had 1/3 of my ammo remaining with which, I later dispatched a Hellcat and Corsair.
Another feature of sorts; the Wildcats can stay ariborne for what seems like forever on 75% fuel.
Zeros? Target practice......
My regards,
Widewing
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The FM2's performance doesn't surprise me at all. The Navy DID consider it its best dogfighter for under 10,000 feet, even superior to the F8F in this regard. I hope more people start flying them; variety is always a good thing.
(this is also why I hope to see a Ki-84 or Ki-61-II added....planes that'll see a lot of MA usage)
J_A_B
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Strangely enogh, i find the fm2/f4f one of the few planes i shy away from fighting with. And one of the only planes that can consistently kill my hurricane
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Dnil -
http://www.aviation-history.com
claims the P-61 "credited with 239 German aircraft destroyed and another 209 probables; none lost to enemy action" - several other sites claim ETO totals for the P-61 as 127 confirmed, 18 of which were V1s - cant find totals for PTO/CBI, still have not found one record of a combat loss of a P-61, however combat losses of lone-wolf night fighters would tend not to have witnesses. i did read several instances of 'took off on operation never to return...'
http://www.geocities.com/mep1100/conquering_the_night.pdf
may shed some light on the situation, but i haven't finished reading it yet...do you have any good P-61 sources?
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I have an osprey book on the P 61, it is not with me at the moment howeaver, good info on the planes and their action's in Europe and the Pacific.
I recall the book saying that It is beleaved some of the P 61's lost in action were from raming their targets on accedent, or geting caught up in the debries after their target blew up.
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F4F & FM2 suck. F6F beats them all. I can b and zoom F4F & FM2 all day in my Hellcat. I am not saying F4F & FM2 suck totally...they are very good for base defense. I think F6F is an all around better plane. Can stick with the faster planes in a dive...can outturn a niki if executed correctly and can b n z a niki or spit.
All! I am sure Mathman would agree w/ me on this one!
~BlueiceJ~
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well the F6F was the next generation in that line of fighters, were a great plane - of course they're faster, but where were they in 1942? (answer: they were parts on a factory floor)
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Originally posted by HeLLcAt
F4F & FM2 suck. F6F beats them all. I can b and zoom F4F & FM2 all day in my Hellcat. I am not saying F4F & FM2 suck totally...they are very good for base defense. I think F6F is an all around better plane. Can stick with the faster planes in a dive...can outturn a niki if executed correctly and can b n z a niki or spit. All! I am sure Mathman would agree w/ me on this one!
~BlueiceJ~
I like the Hellcat, and I fly it frequently. However, I do not worry about them one whit when flying an FM-2. Why? Because, the F6F has a singular advantage over the Wildcat, as opposed to several significant disadvantages. Speed is important, but is easily negated by your opponent having an altitude advantage. Moreover, the speed advantage of the Hellcat is not substantial. Indeed, the gap between the P-51D and Hellcat is greater. If we wish to talk about strict BnZ tactics, the Mustang can abuse the F6F with relative ease. Wildcats have a much more difficult time with P-51s than they do with Hellcats. But, put an inexperienced or simply inept pilot in the faster aircraft and my money is on the slow, more maneuverable bird every time. I have no data to support this, but it seems to me that the FM-2 accelerates faster from low speeds than the Hellcat too.
It should be noted that the FM-2 climbs just as well as the F6F, and does so at a greater angle. Whether you realize it or not, that is significant. While the F6F climbs at the same rate, it still cannot follow the FM-2 without stalling (assuming both start the climb Co-E). Turn rate: There’s no comparison, Wildcats turn circles around Hellcats. Roll rate is similar, but the FM-2 has much greater rudder authority, and rudder input dramatically improves roll rate at some sacrifice to airspeed.
As forgiving as the Hellcat’s stall characteristics are, the Wildcats are better. Upon entering an accelerated stall, the Wildcats simply mush, whereas the Hellcat tends towards a rapid drop of the wing, almost a snap roll. One other factor that I feel is significant is size. Hellcats are big targets, Wildcats are diminutive in comparison, and harder to hit. Both are built like a brick chithouse, able to survive hits that would bring a Buff down.
My experience flying Wildcats causes me to prefer them over the F6F. So far this tour, I have shot down 6 Hellcats, 3 each in the FM-2 and F4F-4, for no losses. And in nearly every case, the Hellcats had an altitude and speed advantage at the outset of the engagement. What does that indicate? If you waste your E while fighting Wildcats, you will very likely die.
You see, most pilots lack the patience and discipline to use BnZ tactics correctly. After several ineffective passes, the majority of pilots start pulling harder turns to get the shot in. Before long, they’ve surrendered their E advantage, and consequently find themselves in deep bandini. When you have the level of success I have had with the Wildcat, it’s hard to find a reason to fault the little monster.
My regards,
Widewing
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I personally consider the Fm2 & F4F's performance so poor i rarely ever attack them. I always go for the con that i believe is more of a threat to me- unless the FM2/F4F is higher than me it isn't a threat.
Above 10k the spit1 is faster and climbs better than both of them and at 5k the peformance is very close- thats how poor their performance is lol! :D
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Originally posted by thrila
I personally consider the Fm2 & F4F's performance so poor i rarely ever attack them. I always go for the con that i believe is more of a threat to me- unless the FM2/F4F is higher than me it isn't a threat.
Above 10k the spit1 is faster and climbs better than both of them and at 5k the peformance is very close- thats how poor their performance is lol! :D
So, you're saying that you avoid attacking Wildcats because they're just too easy to kill?!
Yeah, right. Do you avoid Goons for the same reason?
Poor performance eh? Then explain how a no-talent duffer like me manages this.....
This tour to date:
Widewing has 2 kills and has been killed 0 times in the FM2 against the Spitfire Mk I.
Widewing has 4 kills and has been killed 0 times in the FM2 against the Spitfire V
Widewing has 11 kills and has been killed 1 time in the FM2 against the Spitfire Mk IX.
Widewing has 1 kill and has been killed 0 times in the F4F-4 against the Spitfire V.
Widewing has 37 kills and has been killed 1 time in the F4F-4.
Widewing has 132 kills and has been killed 25 times in the FM2.
If I were you, I'd absolutely continue to avoid Wildcats, especially mine. :D
Seriously, you deserve credit for flying those early-war Spits and Hurris in the MA. It's not easy to stay alive and actually keep a decent K/D in them.
My regards,
Widewing
PS: Yes Robsan, I am posting my score again... :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by whels
hehe u havent meet my FM2. last tour i was 197 and 27 in FM2.
On the contrary... your FM2 has never met my Spit. :D
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
On the contrary... your FM2 has never met my Spit. :D
-- Todd/Leviathn
Yes it has, but it was a no-decision as we both had interlopers to deal with. ;) We were maneuvering for advantage when some would be opportunist tried to blindside you. Meanwhile, a Niki made a run on me.
I know it was you, 'cause when you killed the guy he said, "Aw toejam, that was Leviathn!"
I killed the Niki, but have no illusions that he said, "Aw toejam, that was Widewing!" :D
My regards,
Widewing
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Think I have to take that FM-2 vs Spit turning issue to the Training arena...
My money is on the Spitfire, well definately Spit I and SpitV, and also the Hurricane.
However, FM-2 has been largely underestimated in AH, and when flying it I find that my foes show me less respect than when I am in the Spit. They pay for that with bullet holes of course:D
The tubby little thing is practically a Spitfire in disguise, but when are you ever gonna hear "wildcat dweeb"...naaa
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Originally posted by Widewing
It won't be long before we hear the term "Wildcat Dweeb".
Nah they already have a name for em, Ack weenies :)
Seriously you guys aren't giving the field/cv defensive guns nearly enough credit in this discussion. So, before you go raising the darn thing to sainthood, lets consider the environment it typically flies in and the fact that AA cannot recieve credit for kills.
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Widewing i think you misunderstood what i was trying to say. If i saw a lone f4f/fm2 i would definately engage it and kill it, yes! :D But if there were multiple cons in my vicinty- the FM2 or the F4F wouldn't be a priority target.
i'm not doing bad with the spit1 at all (practising for the BoB:) ) Aslong as you get close those .303's rip them apart.:D
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I engaged in a dogfight with a Zero, and even though he outmaneuvered me I was on his tail most of the time.
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I was remembering from an article in one of the wings of fame volumes on the 61. I need to reread to see again. Good stuff in the article. I just never thought the 61 saw that much action, guess it did :)
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Just took the FM-2 for a turn test with the Spit V.
The Spit turned better, but the difference was not very big.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
On the contrary... your FM2 has never met my Spit. :D
-- Todd/Leviathn
I noticed that you have very recently spent some time flying the FM-2, and typically, did well with it (11/2). What was your impression?
I found its instantaneous turn rate near corner to be astounding. This, IMHO, gives it an initial advantage over the SpitV. However, the FM-2 bleeds energy faster than the Spitfire (F4F-4 is worse with its inadequate power loading), and consequently, the longer the fight goes on, the more the advantage swings back to the Spitfire. That same energy bleed can be used to advantage should the fight evolve into a scissors. Pull power off on a Wildcat, and it slows dramatically. I find that inducing an overshoot is easy enough, but speed recovery is a slow process. Therefore, it is very important not to miss a shooting opportunity.
In terms of firepower, those four .50 caliber guns are surprisingly effective. I set convergence at 650 yards, which has paid off since many of the targets are considerably faster and long-range shots are more commonplace with Wildcats. Speaking of guns, the six gun installation in the F4F-4 is extremely deadly, for some reason, seemingly moreso than the same setup in the P-51D or F4U.
Anyway, I was wondering what your thoughts were.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
I noticed that you have very recently spent some time flying the FM-2, and typically, did well with it (11/2). What was your impression?
I found its instantaneous turn rate near corner to be astounding. This, IMHO, gives it an initial advantage over the SpitV. However, the FM-2 bleeds energy faster than the Spitfire (F4F-4 is worse with its inadequate power loading), and consequently, the longer the fight goes on, the more the advantage swings back to the Spitfire. That same energy bleed can be used to advantage should the fight evolve into a scissors. Pull power off on a Wildcat, and it slows dramatically. I find that inducing an overshoot is easy enough, but speed recovery is a slow process. Therefore, it is very important not to miss a shooting opportunity.
In terms of firepower, those four .50 caliber guns are surprisingly effective. I set convergence at 650 yards, which has paid off since many of the targets are considerably faster and long-range shots are more commonplace with Wildcats. Speaking of guns, the six gun installation in the F4F-4 is extremely deadly, for some reason, seemingly moreso than the same setup in the P-51D or F4U.
Anyway, I was wondering what your thoughts were.
My regards,
Widewing
ive always said the F6 50s are more leath then the p51/F4U/P47.
and it seems they put 4 of them in the FM2. these 4 50s kill
easier then the 4 on 51b or the 6 on 5d and f4us.
whels
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Widewing,
I agree with most of your statements about the F6F/F4F comparison. The one statement that I disagree with is the one about the speed differential not being substantial. That would be true, if you consider a difference of "only" 50 mph in top speed to be trivial. The difference in AH would be even greater if the flight model of the F6F wasn't porked. Most sources for the Hellcat's top speed routinely repeat the erroneous flight data recorded before the air-speed system on the Hellcat was redesigned to give a more accurate reading. There are a number of sources, reliable sources, that give a corrected top speed for the F6F-5 as being over 405 mph. Even Chance-Vought, Grumman's top competitor for Navy contracts, recorded the -5 Hellcat's top speed as being over 400 mph. I recently saw a reprint of Jane's Fighters of WW II that listed the -5's top speed as being 405 mph.
I find it extremely difficult to get the Hellcat's top speed above 360 mph in level flight in Aces High. It's flight model is almost 60 mph slower than the similarly powered P-47, an aircraft that is just as big dimensionally and weighs a ton more. While the P-47 is undoubtedly faster at high altitude (near 30,000 ft) because of its supercharging, the Hellcat is definitely capable of reaching 400 mph at its rated altitude of 20,000 feet.
HTC has done a tremendous job developing Aces High. However, the requests that I and others have made that the F6F's flight model be upgraded seem to have gone unheeded. But, I'll keep asking. Politely.
Regards, Shuckins
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Schuckins,
HTC is slicker than you think. Pay no attention to your speedometer. Take the F6F offline and test it's top speed on the digital speed of the film viewer. It is approximately 400MPH at 19K.
HTC does some sneaky things like modeling the pitot tube error in speed at alt. Actually all of the AH planes read slighty off at high alt.
Later
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F4UDOA,
No kiddin'? I gotta try that. :)
Regards, Shuckins
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Originally posted by Widewing
Poor performance eh? Then explain how a no-talent duffer like me manages this.....
Ut Oh! That puts me several ranks below "no-talent duffer." Is three toed sloth pilot a category? I think I can just about hold my own with the AI drones who fly in circles....
- Seagoon
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Originally posted by Widewing
In terms of firepower, those four .50 caliber guns are surprisingly effective.... Speaking of guns, the six gun installation in the F4F-4 is extremely deadly, for some reason, seemingly moreso than the same setup in the P-51D or F4U.
Widewing
A perception I share.
Does anyone have info on the distance between the right and left outermost guns on these aircraft? My thinking being that if the "cone" is narrower at the rear it's going to result in a tighter "pattern" throughout the range.
IE: If a P-51 had say.. 18 feet between outermost guns and an F4F had maybe 12 then the "cone of fire" would be narrower all the way right?
Thus you get better "convergence" shots?
Or am I out to lunch here?
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The cone of fire on the FM-2 has to be narrower because of the overall smaller dimensions of the aircraft as compared to the P-51 and other fighters.
The Fm-2 has a propeller diameter of only 9'9" compared to a diameter of over 13' for the Hellcat. Since almost all American fighters had their weapons mounted just outside of the propeller tips, this indicates that the cone of fire of the Wildcat was narrower than many of it's contemporaries. Being mounted closer to the centerline of the aircraft lessened the convergence problems associated with the wing mounted .50 calibers of the other fighters, improving materially the "on-target" capability of the FM-2.
Regards, Shuckins