Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: easymo on August 12, 2002, 07:35:50 PM
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I did a poor job of expressing what I was getting at, but this guys got the point. His answer:
Dinger
Moderator
Posts: 675
From: Iowa City, IA, Amurrica
Registered: Dec 2000
posted 08-12-2002 05:55 PM
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Well, terminology: it's not the "FM" that's at stake. We can measure each one of those against real-life performance.
with trim the problem is the interface.
And,y eah, you're right, trim on a spring-loaded stick works nothing like it does in real life. Nor does your monitor function well as a windshield.
In cases like these, you've got to find an analogous function. That doesn't mean yelling "it's all relative" and throwing things out the window. What it means is that when you go for an analogous solution, you want results like:
A. Can we make the information available to the pilot as close to what would be available to a RL pilot in the same circumstances?
B. How close can we make the pilot's actions/workload necessary to complete those actions to that of real life?
I mean this is a simulation. We don't have an engine in front of us, nor do most of us have the cool nobs and levers to control a real engine.
So, let's take startup on a multiengined prop. Sim A has startup and shutdown controlled by a single keypress, and the all engines fire right up and build up oil pressure. Sim B requires you to set the fuel mixture, the mags, lord knows what else, then fire the starter, bring the engine to idle and let the oil pressure build. Then you got to do it for the other engine.
(you can tell I know very little about flight)
Both sims can have identical Flight Models/Engine Models, but the analogical control process for Sim B is clearly superior.
So too with trim. If trim is something that requires little thought for a pilot to do, then it should require little thought in the sim. If a plane is without trim because the stick forces are light enough, and a pilot can actively (and thoughtlessly) hold the plane in trim, then we should have that ability (even if our sticks are springloaded). If a RL pilot is strong enough to pull back ont he stick and get maximum elevator deflection regardless of trim setting, then we should too.
IP: Logged
Blacky
Member
Posts: 117
From: spring, texas, USA
Registered: Mar 2001
posted 08-12-2002 08:31 PM
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I can live with that . Like most of what I have read about TK, this sounds very promising.
For me, it does not matter how accurate the FM is, if they way that you interact with it is pure fiction.
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This seems to pretty much be in agreement with everything toad has said on the subject.
AKDejaVu
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I don't see how. (more misunderstanding). If AH has a fictionalized interface. One is no more valid than the other, which was my main point.
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Ok, first the disclaimer. I have no beef with you; overall I think you're one of the more squared away guys on the board.
Now, my commentary on what this guy said, Trim first.
"So too with trim. If trim is something that requires little thought for a pilot to do, then it should require little thought in the sim."
Any pilot with much experience at all will tell you that trim, particularly in modern aircraft with "powered trim" (ie you just move a switch) on the stick becomes so ingrained that it requires no conscious thought. The stick starts to feel a little heavy and you click some trim in.
The WW2 birds are a bit different because most of them had manual trim wheels, requiring you to move your hand off the throttle quadrant and turn a knob.
Nonetheless, all trim does is relieve stick pressure. Thus is a WW2 pilot was holding uncomfortable stick pressure for an extended period of time.. long enough to make it worth trimming (extended climb for example) he'd trim. If it is a "transitory" pressure, like adding back stick in a 360 degree steep turn for example, it's just easier to hold the back pressure because it is absolutely "no thing".
"If a plane is without trim because the stick forces are light enough, and a pilot can actively (and thoughtlessly) hold the plane in trim, then we should have that ability (even if our sticks are springloaded). If a RL pilot is strong enough to pull back ont he stick and get maximum elevator deflection regardless of trim setting, then we should too."
You don't "hold the plane in trim". You hold the stick wherever it needs to be in order to achieve the desired flight path. Trim has nothing to do with flight path. Trim would merely relieve some or most of the stick pressure required to achieve the desired flight path.
Once again, for transitory pressures (like in a whirling, swirling dogfight) are generally ignored by most pilots. Another example is a loop; most pilots trim for their entry speed and don't change trim throughout the maneuver although stick pressure will vary greatly as they loop.
I assure you that except at the extreme edge of the flight envelope, a RL WW2 pilot is strong enough to get maximum elevator deflection regardless of trim setting in almost any WW2 aircraft. That is a DESIGN FUNCTION. Would you want your pilots going out to fight in an aircraft that had restricted controls that limited their ability to maneuver? Of course not; you'd design in some mechanical advantage (higher seat, taller stick.. leverage)or alter the overall design of the aircraft as necessary.
"Sim A has startup and shutdown controlled by a single keypress, and the all engines fire right up and build up oil pressure.
Sim B requires you to set the fuel mixture, the mags, lord knows what else, then fire the starter, bring the engine to idle and let the oil pressure build. Then you got to do it for the other engine.
Both sims can have identical Flight Models/Engine Models, but the analogical control process for Sim B is clearly superior."
I'm sorry Easymo, but this is merely a value judgement. THIS guys (and undoubtedly others) finds the "detail" added to Sim B makes the sim "clearly superior".
Uh.. no. Not for all of us. What it does is make the sim slightly more complex, slightly more detailed. And to no real purpose, IMO. Engine start is not a "combat maneuver". I've started LOTS of engines; I can unequivocably say engine start was never the high point of any of my flights. In fact, it sort of delays getting to the fun part. I can understand where the Microsoft Flight Simulator crowd may think this is just the berries, however.
One could argue that a detailed process would change the dynamic in a "vultch" situation during a field capture or something. Probably true. The change would be the people would RARELY up under vultch conditions.. which is pretty realistic. Don't know if it's good for gameplay as lots of folks like to vultch. It would make field capture much fasted for sure because it gives a huge advantage to those capping the field. Is this a good thing? Bet you can get arguments on both sides.
You can extend this logic on both sides throughout the flight up to the point of preparing for combat. That is, some folks will love the drudgery of doing every little thing in the checklist and others will find it a totally unnecessary routine that bores them when they could be getting a beer out of the 'fridge.
At the point nearing imminent combat, most of the aircraft were designed to be "fought" without any unnecessary procedures. You armed up the guns, dropped the tanks, set the mixture when you got to the point that you were about to engage and then you just flew. No other procedures that required hands flying madly about the cockpit.
For the most part it was one hand on the throttle quadrant and one hand on the stick. Keep it simple. Give your guy every advantage to win by not complicating the engagement.
Some aircraft did this better than others of course.
So, in closing, one man's "detail" is another man's "anal obsession". Somewhere in the middle there is a game that a wide spectrum of folks can enjoy.
Right now, I think AH is that game. It's damn well balanced and thought out.
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I have not started many engine, but let tell you, one of my highlights is just starting the generator! Because then I KNOW I'm going flying! :D
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I agree that AH is the best available. IMHO, due mostly to the lack of competition. But realistic or not,(i believe not) trim has a large effect on combat in AH. One of my favorite tricks has been to intentionally cross trim when I want to slow quickly. Then to trim out to extend (run away). Simply, it works. My argument is that if we have went this far, then its just a game anyway. And the old system was just as valid.
As far as a problem between us. It never even occurred to me. We are just arguing flight sims in the time honored manner :)
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Easymo-
Wouldn't it be easier to cross-control without trimming to slow down? That's what I do, anyway...
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easier to stay on target, my way ;)
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..you dont tug on supermans cape..
It's all very subtle, Kieran. An abrupt cross control reveals intent.. I used to look for cues like that and when I guessed right I was able to counter. Some guys have this sim so mapped out mentally they can anticipate a move, and counter it before anybody even makes a move. In fact the really good guys in the sim can blow yer bellybutton outta your incorrectly modeled chair before you even log into the game.
.. you don't spit inta the wind..
Yah gotta admit, it's kinda funny in it's way.. step outside and look at us.. we got guys here who get so into this game it becomes a life.. hell they even build 'cockpits' otta cardboard and plywood, paint 'em up and crawl into 'em to fly 6 hours a night. (hi, my name is hangtime and I've been clean 3 days 9 hours an 19 minutes now..)
..you don't pull the mask of the 'ol lone ranger..
Other folks hugely enjoy a cerebral esoteric argument about what frame of mind the developer musta been in when he decided how to model whatever it is thats got the gobs of ill informed clueless whiners on the BBS all wound up in the first place.
..and yah don't mess around wit slim..
Then there's Toad 'n Easymo. Kinda like Godzilla an Rodan. Fun ta watch, but ruff on Tokyo.
:D
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"In fact the really good guy in the sim can blow yer bellybutton outta your incorrectly modeled chair before you even log into the game. "
LOL. I told Mr. easymo this chair was porked.
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Anyone who is doing manuevers with trim and can't do them just as well with regular stick and rudder needs to adjust their setup.
The more Toad talks about how trim should be the more I'm convinced AH has it spot on, given our level of PC technology.
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Problem with trim in any game is that there is no control feedback. You don't feel any pressure and the stick stays centered no matter what. If anything, it's a visual rather than tactile cue.
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This is why AH is what it is. Anyone that says different is selling something.
I visited from AW durin beta.... Found it hell ... was lucky to get off the ground, once up i couldn't hit anything... and then when it came to landings I always broke my gear... So went back to aw +) ...
---Skurj
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What? That it isn't "just like Real Life"?
That they make playbility concessions?
Just remember this: Difficulty is not necessarily directly related to "realism". That's a mistake an awful lot of people seem to make.
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Ok . You have me baffled. One second your holding up the holy bible of realism. The next your tossing out playability concessions. That was MY point from the beginning; its just a game. You can make it an adult game, requiring some skill. Or a kiddie game. Either way realism don't inter into it.
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Easymo, check my sig block. It's been that way for a couple of years I think.
I'm not changing or saying anything different than I've always said.
Basically some things are pretty realistic and some things aren't. Try for as much realism as the technology allows. Make concessions where necessary due to technology limitations.
However, I'm never going to be in favor of making things artificially difficult simply because a small minority don't find it "challenging" enough to suit them.
I'll be happy to elaborate if you're still confused.
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"At the point nearing imminent combat, most of the aircraft were designed to be "fought" without any unnecessary procedures. You armed up the guns, dropped the tanks, set the mixture when you got to the point that you were about to engage and then you just flew. No other procedures that required hands flying madly about the cockpit."
There were exceptions though, for example P38 was famous for its quirky fuel tank switch and overall controls. It was highly criticised for being too complicated in a combat situation, reportedly many novice pilots died before they found the correct combat setup when they were bounced by LW.
If I recall right, just last year a highly experienced historic flight pilot crashed and died because he switched the fuel tanks wrong in the landing.
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Well, I am less confused now. You are just like the rest of us. The only "reality" you care about are the things that interest you. They are no more valid then the things that interest me.
As far as technological limitations go. How much technology does it take to delete the auto take off button. Or the easymode button.
We just seem to be chasing each other around the same bush,at any rate. Being artificially easy, is no more valid than being artificially hard.
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Well, easy, would you support "neutering" the guns like they did in WB? So we could all enjoy the fights longer? Cut the range down to say 500 yds and cut the leath in half?
That to me is an example of something I wouldn't be in favor of, simply because it alters a "reality" that we do have the PC technology to mimic and it materially affects the fighting and ACM.
Now, you find "auto-takeoff" as an example of an invalid change to reality. And you're right. Even today, there's no "auto-takeoff" mode on the autopilots out there. Clearly a concession for ease of play. Now, tell me how it affects the fighting and ACM? Unless it makes vultching even easier?
I'm not sure what you mean by "easymode button". Are you talking Combat Trim here? Where do you want to start? With the fact that many of these aircraft did not have three axis trim? That almost NONE of them had powered trim? That trim merely relieves stick pressure in RL... stick pressure that we don't have in AH? That even you would admit that in RL an aircraft could fly and fight with all trim tabs removed and the only difference would be that the pilot would may.. possibly... might... momentarily experience higher stick forces if he usually trimmed during air combat?
I'm in favor of "artificially easy" where it doesn't and shouldn't provide an advantage in winning a fight. Autopilot for example. Auto Takeoff for another. Use of autopilot or auto takeoff doesn't help you win a fight.
I'm not in favor of "artificially hard" where it alters reality beyond what PC technology can simulate fairly well. "Gun neutering" is a prime example.
So I still don't think were a bit alike on this topic. :D
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I use CT all the time. It has enabled me to win a lot of fights. I don't stay in it, of course. I use it as an insta-trim button. There are a few applications where it becomes, very much, an easymode button. If it worked like auto climb, (gradually moving to the selected position)I would have less to say about it. But, hit the button sometime. It is magically instantaneous.
Yes, you can argue that trim had little to do with real combat. But, in that case there should be no trim buttons at all. And, we can all move to Fighter Ace, and save 5 bucks a month :)
BTW. I have been at a base, where the ack was down. And I was getting vulched. Auto take off allowed me to keep an eye on incoming fighters while upping. So saying it has no effect is not true either
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At the risk of restarting the circular logic...... :)
Originally posted by easymo
I use CT all the time. It has enabled me to win a lot of fights. I don't stay in it, of course. I use it as an insta-trim button. There are a few applications where it becomes, very much, an easymode button.
Why should we need it at all? Isn't full control deflection always (OK, possibly not at the extreme edge of the envelope... possibly) available to the pilot, real or virtual, whether or not the aircraft is in trim?
If you have full deflection available, what does trim do for you in hard maneuvering? Other than relieve stick load at the cost of moving your hand off the throttle quadrant.. .a much more important location and control.
You shouldn't die just because you're mis-trimmed... other reasons, yeah... but mis-trim? Nah.
Originally posted by easymo
Yes, you can argue that trim had little to do with real combat.
[/b]
I do. It didn't.
Originally posted by easymo
But, in that case there should be no trim buttons at all.
Or it shouldn't really be necessary to use them to win a fight.
If one were to remove the autopilot, they'd be used in their traditional, correct role. I could go for that. No autopilot, trim only on the aircraft axis that actually had it. Trim use not required for fighting since it only relieves stick pressure; full control deflection is available anyway. Trim used mainly to trim aircraft for static condition like cruise or climb.
It'd be worth it to hear the wailing. I can live without A/P... I don't have to leave the machine to smoke or whatever and I know how to trim it to last long enough to get a beer. :)
Originally posted by easymo
BTW. ...getting vulched. ....So saying it has no effect is not true either
Ok, will you go for "nearly minimal effect" or maybe "basically unnoticeable effect" or something like that? ;)
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For my last comment on the matter. I will refer you to my first post. Like all the other "vets" I have heard how good a sim was going to be before. And it turned out to be WW2OL. Or didn't turn out at all. But, If TK/TR makes it to the net. They would have what I would prefer. If a plane had no trim, so be it, If it had just rudder trim, than put that in. What ever it had in RL it should have in the sim. That would be my choice, if I had one.
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As long as the trim had no real effect on who won an ACM engagement, I'd agree. :D
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"If one were to remove the autopilot, they'd be used in their traditional, correct role."
That's what they've done in WW2OL and you know what...you quickly learn to trim for level, climb, what have ya.
"Problem with trim in any game is that there is no control feedback. You don't feel any pressure and the stick stays centered no matter what."
A couple of years ago, I bought a forcefeed back joystick and I used it for less than a week, mainly because of trim.
You'd set the attitude, try to trim it out, just to have the stick trying to center, rather than relieve the forces in it's current position...and I hated it.
Daff
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Agree, Daff. Learning to trim is no biggie. The A/P is clearly a convenience tool.
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So you would be in favor of spawning in the air, like say EAW servers did, right near the action, just prior to the real important gameplay issue, 'acm and the fight', right?
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Actually, I wouldn't have a problem with that as long as I knew it going in. Play time for me is in short supply, so yeah, getting into the fight faster is better.
You'd better believe I use time acceleration in Il-2.
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..after much to-and fro; Godzilla fainally sez 'the hell with it.." gets around behind, and stuffs it up his ass...
(http://gojirastomp2.tripod.com/destroyallmonsta/notfunny.jpg)
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Originally posted by Creamo
So you would be in favor of spawning in the air,
Are you talking ta me?
Nope. Didn't like that in FA or EAW.
Altitude is a huge part of the ACM equation. Don't think there should be an "instant altitude" button, particularly in a 24/7 persistent arena environment.
Now, do I think we need to exactly recreate the engine start sequence for the P-51D?
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Starting Procedure
Have prop pulled through, with ignition switch OFF, if plane has been idle more than 2 hours.
Generator and battery switch ON, unless battery cart is being used, then battery switch OFF.
Open throttle 1 inch. Mixture control in IDLE CUT-OFF. Propeller control in INCREASED RPM.
Supercharger switch in AUTOMATIC.
Carburetor air control in RAM AIR.
Turn ignition switch to BOTH.
Fuel shut-off valve ON and fuel selector valve to fuselage tank (if full), or Left Main tank if fuselage tank not used.
Fuel booster pump on NORMAL, check for 8-12 pounds of fuel pressure.
Prime engine 3 to 4 shots if cold, 1 to 2 if warm.
Clear the prop.
Lift guard on starter switch and press switch to START.
Caution in use of starter not to overheat.
As engine starts, move mixture control to AUTO RICH.
If engine does not fire after several turns, continue priming.
WARNING: When engine is not firing, mixture control should be in IDLE CUT-OFF.
Warm engine at approximately 1300 RPM.
Check for constant oil pressure. If no oil pressure or low pressure after 30 seconds, SHUT DOWN engine.
Check all instruments for proper readings.
Check hydraulic system by lowering and raising flaps; loading 800-850 pounds and unloading at 1050-1100 pounds.
Check communication equipment for operation.
Uncage all gyro instruments.
Check both LEFT and RIGHT MAIN and FUSELAGE fuel systems by rotating fuel selector valve with booster pump switch in EMERGENCY.
Check for 14-19 psi. If drop tanks are installed, check fuel flow by rotating fuel selector control.
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My answer is "no".
I can understand that some folks would think that is just too cool for shoes and I hope someday there's another game that will provide them with such titillation.
I just want to be in a different game entirely and out of range when they "spasm". :D
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Hooo boy... saw that one commin. :D
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seems to me a simple solution would be-
you hit a key (or button on your stick), to toggle on/off a small meter that shows you how much presure is on your stick and in what direction, then you trim your plane.
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Originally posted by Hussein
..."There were exceptions though, for example P38 was famous for its quirky fuel tank switch and overall controls...
Some how I missed this in the blizzard of posting with Easy. :)
Well Mr. Sid, that's why I said "Some aircraft did this better than others of course." in the very post you quoted. In fact, right after that paragraph, I think.
You are absolutely right.. the P-38 was not an "ergonomic" setup when one needed to quickly configure for a fight.
Nice seeing you though, Ripley. Hoped you enjoyed the vacation. Greece was it?
;)
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Hooo boy, me too I guess. Whatever argument the AH Spirit team flavor of the week is, can be argued, no matter how absurd the examples made are.
Toad, fer Gads sake, wanting more than hitting “E” and roaring off for a full hour in 100% throttle in AH does not make a “realism freak”. It’s as an absurd notion as your constant pounding about commercial airline flight examples as a viable comparison to WWII aircraft.
I am to believe that you’re a self-appointed spokesman in WWII sim reality, to the point everyone should believe that engine starts here are mute , because you are bored to tears until you are rolling out and hit autopilot in real life? Has that anything to do with wanting some SIMPLE simulation features modeled in a WWII combat game? Maybe even turning on fuel and holding a hoopty key down for a few seconds to think your engaging a starter?
No.
Where do you find that comparison and confidence to post as if it’s damn near fact, not opinion? You seem to in earnest. I pry got more time in sims, and definitely AH, but I don’t post like I know all the facts. I make suggestions. People aren’t buying IL-2 because of the online servers. I enjoy it and only suggest and hope AH closes the gap on it’s few differencing features, only to make a ultimate massive online game.
Does anyone want a virtual ground crew guy to run out to the plane, hook up ground power, and clear his prop, while he goes through a checklist? I doubt it. Maybe this minority you group into the FLTSIM2002 crowd who would ejaculate to the point you have to run away, but I don’t see them. Certainly not Easymo.
But because that is the P51 checklist, we should all say HTC game play is panacea? The ultimate balance for fun vs. realism is achieved? That’s a stretch, and I find it pretty absurd to make a point on.
As soon as suggestions and wants from the player base stop, then you can blame HTC for only having a few employee’s in which to develop idea’s for AH.
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Hey, I hope y'all get what you want.
I've found what I want. :D
You want to press hoopty keys and jiggle the throttle to make like a wobble pump? Hoop and wobble away.
The beauty of it all is that if there's so many folks that want total realism..no, make that a lot of... well, maybe quite a bit of the... ah... OK.. some more realism..... then either this game or the others or new ones will eventually evolve/emerge to handle this huge yearning mass.
You can be where you want to be.
I can be where I want to be. It won't necessarily be the same place but that's the beauty of it, eh?
...and you may remember this whole thing started out about trim... and the reality/unreality thereof. You can't change one thing about trim.. that is just about every WW2 aircraft would fly just as well and maneuver just as well if you faired the trim tab and removed the ability to move it. What did you want to change about that?
Cya up in my Airliner.... :D
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Originally posted by Creamo
to post as if it’s damn near fact, not opinion?
Oh, yeah.. where did I say my views on gameplay were not opinon?
Time in PC flight sims? Maybe; I don't know. Played just about everyone from about 1989 on, boxed and online both. I didn't keep a logbook for PC time..... even though I had to review MS Flight Sim versions several times. You one of the guys htat kept a log?
Wanna match up actual flight time too? :D
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I never know when I tweak someone...
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Review the thread..... don't worry, it was barbless.
(http://www.schumannsflyfishkitco.com/images/d_2.jpg)
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Originally posted by Kieran
Actually, I wouldn't have a problem with that as long as I knew it going in. Play time for me is in short supply, so yeah, getting into the fight faster is better.
I know you can beat me up, but that's just wrong!
See yourself after class, D- :( lol
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A real life P47 pilot posts on an old AW NG I frequent. A primarily FR (full realism) group. As you might expect; there was always quite a viscious schism between us "really real" macho guys and the kiddies in the easy mode camp. One day some one thought to ask the P47 jock which he flew. The answer that easy mode was much closer to his experiences than the "insta-kill" stall model of FR bought a complete silence to the room......
And as for trim (yep; we've plagued him with this sort of question for years); he says the only times he ever conciously trimmed was for two occasions: a steady climb out; and he'd "pre-trim" for his estimated pull out speed when dive bombing (mainly rudder trim); otherwise the ball wouldn't be centred for release and he'd miss. He should know; he got a silver star doing it.
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Toad has more" LOOKIE LOOKIE IM saying something important text.
You must be misinformed.
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I know you can beat me up, but that's just wrong!
Not likely- I'd be curled up in the fetal position screaming like a girl while you kicked me! :D
What I mean is, if I decided to play a game that had air starts, and I knew it going in, then I would have no problem. I am not suggesting that AH ever get air starts.
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I know he's pretty small, but I'm a "catch and release" angler anyway.
I feet that delicate cross-thread presentation....
Look! There's a Rise! (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61176&highlight=trim)
Creamo And I think it would be a nice option to micro manage realistic WWII aircraft systems
....of the P-51D Checklist ....
that resulted in such an aggressive strike but such a short actual playing of the fish still earns me the opportunity to have my picture taken holding up this minnow. Something like this......
(http://www.folkestadfishguide.com/images/Front-Page.jpg)
What do you guys think?
I think Elf should be the judge. Should have never gone back to the same hole without changing flies though......
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gawddammit, i hate it when these arguments are resolved without bloodshed. keeerist, have we become that damn civilized??
hopefully, elfie can pull it out, and everybody will get back to 'the dozens'
*sigh*
Hey Toad.. it that a BT-13 'Vibrator'?? Yours?? You lucky dawg you!
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Actually, it's the best of all possible worlds. The BT belongs to my brother, currently flying for an airline back east.
He keeps it out here because Hangar fees back there are literally 4X what they are here. So I get to keep the engine all oiled up and the controls loose for him by flying it. :D
He and an IA rebuilt it........ it's fargin' PERFECT. Ask Ripsnort.. he saw it.
Only thing is... the start sequence in it is WAAYYYYYYYYY overmodeled. :D
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Henh. well, hell; I may just have to build one.
;)
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Toad... What if AH had this.
Add to the little options menu under Combat Trim a selection called Engine Start Sequence. If you do not have it checked, the game works like it does now. You hit E (or whatever you have it mapped to) and the engines come on and you're off and running in just a few seconds. If you do have it checked, then you have to go through key presses to "simulate" a generic engine start sequence. That way, you can have your quick start, and immersion geeks can have a little extra "fun" before they take off.
Of course, it won't look all spiffy like MFS where the little nobs actually move.