Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: wulfie on August 14, 2002, 01:37:06 AM
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Okay I'd like to hear from any of you guys who are Parents. I've got a potential situation here that I have zero experience with.
I'm staying in some military housing right now, i.e. real houses but the whole street is NATO military.
Next door neighbors have 2 kids. One kid gets messed up playing in front yard. Neighbors know I've got medical training and Mom comes running next door.
2 Kids, big Brother is 3 and little Brother (the injured one) is 2.
Kids don't know me from Adam and I'm trying to calm the 2 year old down to get a good look at his injury.
Well, my probing no doubt caused a little pain, and the 2 year old doesn't know me and I was awoken from a deep nap (bad hair, 2100 shadow, etc.).
So the 2 year old hollars real loud, and the 3 year old kicks me in the nose as hard as he can (I'm bent over). He thought I was hurting his Brother. Cool in my book - seemed like the kid had good instincts.
Well, the Mom grabs the 3 year old by one arm and really yanks him aside. Like his neck cracked like a whip. And then she slaps him hard on the cheek and spanks him *really* hard on his butt...for kicking me.
You have to understand I had no reaction to the kick. The 2 year old had a busted bone and was wearing PJs and I was worried about a cpd fracture (limb at odd angle along a normally straight axis) so I was paying close attention to rolling up the PJs very very carefully (nothing on me to cut them away - again - woken up from nap and all my gear under my rack).
So Mom really smacked him hard. Like 3 fingers visible on the kid's cheek.
Only reason I'm asking this here is if it's no big deal I don't want to cause grief for the Ps of this kid due to a baseless accusation from someone who never has raised Kids. If I asked anyone I worked with they'd know who I'm talking about most likely. And the rumor mill can be a squeak, no?
Mom seems nice and very attentive to Kids. Could have been reaction because she was scared about 2 year old. That's my (totally uneducated) guess. Yanking/smacking the 3 year old seemed very extreme to me at the time, especially when the 3 year olds intentions were so good in my book.
So is this 'child abuse' and should I talk to someone official about it?
Feel free to ask more detailed questions if you need to for the sake of making a good call.
I've babysitted my Cousin's Son a fair deal when he was 1-2. Never saw anything like this (really soft smack on the butt to get attention is all).
Any opinions/advice gratefully accepted.
Mike/wulfie
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In my book, there is absolutely NO reason to hit your kids. If you have to hit them, you've failed already. That being said, the mom in question was undoubtedly in a high-stress situation, and her reactions were likely influenced by her fear & panic. The thing that bothers me though is by the way you're describing the incident, the mom hit the kid REALLY hard. I wouldn't be that concerned if she just yanked him away from you, panic could explain that, but leaving fingerprints on his face? That is CLEARLY out of line.
I think the only thing to do is to observe the kids. Since they're your neighbors, you'll probably see a lot of them. Just pay attention. If they exibit obvious signs of physical abuse, then you know what to do. If not, then you really have no way of telling what the true situation is unless you are close to the family in question. Your choice then is to a) try to get to know them well enough to judge the situation, b) proceeding on the assumption that there IS child abuse and contacting the proper authorities or c) proceeding on the assumption that there is no child abuse and letting the thing go.
In my opinion, c) is unacceptable and b) is premature, which leaves a). I must stress though that this is only an OPINION, based on an account of an incident i havent witnessed. As you yourself pointed out, this is serious stuff - tread carefully and best of luck.
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No real time to observe. I'm outa here in <2 weeks and I'll be working my tail off the entire time.
Mike/wulfie
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Wulfie, You sound like a very smart man. 1 thing is for sure to call authorities on mother could destory that family. DPS rules your guilty until you prove otherwise.
I can tell you my wife slap or son's face once and only once ( now this is a woman who doesn't think we should spank) He was bitting a little girl she yelled for him to stop, and I think out of a gut reaction she slapped his face. She anguished over this for at least a year. We have 5 children and my son is last of the 5. she has never spanked any one of our children before or since this happen. To give you backround she has a masters and a PHD. So It could happen to anyone.
Now this doesn't mean your nieghbor is like her. But if you have seen her yell or cuss at children before. Then I would greatly be concerned. If you have even a slight thought this could be normal I would contact Base Chaplin, He could make visit and if he thinks something is going on He would be required by law to tell authorities.
My last suggestion would be maybe when you see the boy who kicked you. You could call him over and apologize for getting him spanked. ( mind you your not at fault) Young children will tell truth to a fault sometimes. When you say your sorry he got spanked he may let on that he gets hit alot or might say my mom cried and said she was sorry too. then your decission would be alot easier.
Red ant I'm sorry but I differ on spanking. My children got spankings until teenagers. When they got spank I made sure I never spanked while angered or upset, and spanking was last resort.
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Originally posted by sidthekid
Red ant I'm sorry but I differ on spanking. My children got spankings until teenagers. When they got spank I made sure I never spanked while angered or upset, and spanking was last resort.
And what exactly do these spankings accomplish?
Neither of my parents ever raised a hand against me, in any situation. Nevertheless as a child (and now as an adult) I had an abiding respect for them. My father could (and did) get me to "behave" without so much as raising his voice. To be honest, as a child, sometimes i wish they DID spank me, because it hurt to feel their quiet disappointment with me when i did something particularly stupid ;)
Anyway, I'm not in the business of telling people how to raise their children, but i stand by my original statement: there is no NEED to hit/spank children.
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mind your own business
dam, wish someone would have called the cops every time my dad whooped my arse :)
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Originally posted by Red Ant
And what exactly do these spankings accomplish?
umm..they stop doing what they were doing wrong?
I not a big spanker of my kids at all, but sometimes it is necessary. You cannot use logic on a two or three year old. Sometimes..and only sometimes...a spanking puts the point across in a way that the child understands.
Having said that I disagree with what this woman did...slapping a child across the face that hard is extreme, but I would caution against going to the authorities on this one. My wife slapped my little guy on the face once...out of total frustration with his behaviour...I had to console her more than the child afterwards, she was devastated. Accidents happen, we are all human..and this "could" be one.
Without the ability to observe this woman over a period of time I would let it slide. But, you might want to mention it to someone else who lives on the street so that they can keep an eye out.
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Mike,
Consider what mother felt at the moment. She has a kid in pain and probably serious trouble - imagining the worst like mothers do in such situations. She is very angry at the whole world and especially at the older child who was present and probably caused the injury or at least did not prevent it.
Now a man is trying to save her baby and an older kid interferes. She is not able to imagine what the he thinks - she is acting mostly irrationally.
The best thing you could do is to talk to both parents when everything quiets down and explain things to them - that the child was right and she was wrong and she should appologise to him and explain why she made a mistake and slapped him and that he should always watch over his siblings - being more carefull of course and thinking before hitting someone. But that will come with age.
miko
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Originally posted by sidthekid
My last suggestion would be maybe when you see the boy who kicked you. You could call him over and apologize for getting him spanked. ( mind you your not at fault) Young children will tell truth to a fault sometimes. When you say your sorry he got spanked he may let on that he gets hit alot or might say my mom cried and said she was sorry too. then your decission would be alot easier.
Sounds like a very good idea.
Now, on a lighter note..
I'd like to add that me and my two brothers got the living snot beat out of us on a regular basis . I don't know why mom felt she had to physically abuse us on different occasions. I mean it was over petty stuff like putting the dog in the microwave for 8-10 seconds (she never was the same after that), or having B-B gun battles that only ended when somebody took a flesh wound (brother had to go to ER to get B-B taken out of finger), or that time she heard me singing my marching song I had learned earlier that day in first grade "Eight more days and we'll be there! Eating puss and spitting hair!". I don't know what her problem was! The big meanie! :)
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how many kids ya have red ant?
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Put a baby in any kind of harm's way, and watch the mother's reaction.
They'll kill for thier young...
You were helping 2 year old, and 3 year old interfered. Her reaction was more them likely exagirated by circumstances.
Either way, it's between her, and her husband.
If you heard the kid being beaten couple of times, in a cruel matter, then by all means - call authorities.
This one time panic reaction on her side does not warrant the grueling process she and her family would be put though.
As for growing up the kids in the "non stessful way", my 4 year old cusin routinely refers to her father, to his face, as "the diddlying amazinhunk" if she doesn't get her way. He thinks its cute....
Let it go. If its bothering you, talk to the parents about it at later date. If you have any suspitioin that this is a REGULAR behaviour, then by all means report it.
BTW, where are they from ?
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Originally posted by wulfie
Okay I'd like to hear from any of you guys who are Parents. I've got a potential situation here that I have zero experience with.
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So is this 'child abuse' and should I talk to someone official about it?
It's easier to sell child abuse to a commanding officer if you can prove repeated abuse. Check for excessive bruising, make a note of the day and time and circumstance of the incident on a calendar or journal, speak to others to see if they've noticed anything. Gather evidence to make your case, because that's what the authorities are going to want to see when they start building their case.
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Thanks for the input guys.
I was never judging the Mom, due to a lack of direct personal experience. The reason I asked is I've seen other (non-violent) situations involving kids that made me slightly unnerved and found out later that anyone who is actually a Parent was totally unphased by the situation.
I've also never spent a great deal of time outside the house I'm at and thus in the vicinity of the 2 boys when they are out and about. Since I've been here it's go in early and get home really late. But there's a Wife living in the same house as me right now (someone else's, with her Husband, before I get any 'suggestions' ehehheh) so I figure if there was any situation with that Mom and her kids the 'gossip radar' would have given me at least one small return over the past 2 months.
Due to a lack of time to check things out I'm going to ask one of the Chaplains I know in the area to 'make sure Mom is over the trauma'.
Oedipus thanks for the warning but I'm fairly bulletproof on that account.
Thanks again for the responses,
Mike/wulfie
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I've always been curious about the "spank" versus "time out" stuff. I'm involved with a girl who has two kids (9 months and 5 yrs) and we talked about it recently.
For the most part, time outs seem to work. Sometimes just quashing the mighty ego for a toddler is enough to set them back on course. Then there are times when all logic as been lost. The primary functions of the brain are out to lunch and despite 30,675 attempts to correct the behavior, sometimes you need to jolt the system. We aren't talking Tyson-style-hit-for-distance kinda things. We're talking patting the bottom or a slapping of the hand to try to get the message across.
I've seen friends who kids have time outs and just sit there and snicker as the time out clock ticks away. Others are devestated they are in a time out, and the behavior is corrected.
I got spanked growing up for a variety of reasons (telling mom to shove it seemed like a good retort one day, then she ratted me out to my father lol). I didnt get hit a lot (or maybe I do not recall them all? :P) but just enough times when I got completely out of line and appeals to logic weren't making it.
I wouldnt be to trigger happy on calling Department of Human Services. If you do not know the family well, its really not up to you to be the judge/jury on how she raises her kids. Because, as you know, if DHS comes in, she'll be assumed guilty until she proves otherwise, most likely requiring legal services etc to defend herself from what you perceived, as a total stranger, as child abuse.
Its nice that you were concerned, but if you do not know the family at all, I'd mind your own business.
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I've raised 4.
There have been many times I wanted to beat them to a bloody pulp, but they have been spared by divine intervention and cooler heads.
Actually I think the only time I have struck my kids was a quick attention getter. Like when they were about to run into the street, or asking to drive the car.
I can completely understand the mother's reaction. I go completely to pieces when my kids got hurt. I was a single Dad for many years, and I once ran my daughter to the ER for falling and biting her lip. the cut was about 1 cm. The nurse just smiled and said "are you SURE you want her to be seen by a Dr.?" I took the hint.
The only other thing I wonder about is how the 2 yr old broke his arm. Kids get hurt, but a 2 & 3 year old should be under pretty tight watch. Where was Mom when the kid was injured? And how did it happen?
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ya know Mike/wulfie
if you'd backhanded the rugrat yourself, you wouldn't have this dilemma LOL
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Originally posted by midnight Target
I've raised 4.
There have been many times I wanted to beat them to a bloody pulp, but they have been spared by divine intervention and cooler heads.
So it would be accurate to say Tahgut is "soft on crime"?
;)
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Originally posted by hblair
So it would be accurate to say Tahgut is "soft on crime"?
;)
hehe
You got little girls HB? They learn by about age 2 how to get away with murder when it comes to daddy. Yeah I'm a softy alright.
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I am certain the injury was the result of a freak accident.
I've got a fair amount of experience with injuries and I can gurantee the Mom had nothing to do with the broken bone.
Mike/wulfie
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Originally posted by midnight Target
hehe
You got little girls HB? They learn by about age 2 how to get away with murder when it comes to daddy. Yeah I'm a softy alright.
My oldest is a girl. She's ten and as far as I know hasn't ever done anything wrong. :) My other two are boys 7 and 6. They do evil things all the time. :)
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I look at it this way >> a mother has a seriouse injured
kid ...go's for help >>YOU ) ... shes all upset and
worried bought her youngest ...You are trying to help!!
2nd kidd kicks you in the face !!! mother grabs the kid ,and punishes him. i beleave it was more of a reaction due
to the circumstances at the time ... but the chiled may not understand at that moment why she did that ...you can only hope
as a parent she explaned it to him ..... peaple react differently when under duress ...after all we are human ...if we were all
perfect ..we would not have to punish anyone would we ??
Seems to me the human race has many ..many ways
to keep peaple in line look at the laws we have
created they have more then trippled in the last
25 yrs ...soon you won't be able to scratch your nose
in public hehehe
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Was it child abuse?
Did she abuse the child? Yes.
Punitive parenting is the last resort of the parent that has lost control of their anger, or has run out of ideas on how to deal with the situation.
Target, how do you get the attention of someone at work? Do you spank them?
If anyone is interested in not beating their children, you might want to research non-coersive parenting. Nothing MAKES you hit your child. It's a decision you make.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Was it child abuse?
Did she abuse the child? Yes.
Target, how do you get the attention of someone at work? Do you spank them?
Yes.
Is that wrong? :eek:
With all these immigrant Mexicans easymo keeps sending me, it seems the best way to keep them in line. :p
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Ah, the old spank/no spank controversy. Easy solution. Spanking equals hitting. Hitting children is wrong. Spanking is wrong. . . . . . unless you just want to teach your child that physical violence is the best solution to problems.
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Man, If I hit a stranger in the face, the tortures my mom would make me go thru...
Let them be. Its discipline, and well deserved.
Its abuse when they hit em hard for no reason. What she did has been the natural instinct of mothers for millions of years.
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roadkill.... sry.
When a 3 yr. old wants to run into the street, a swat on the behind may just save their life. Thats what I meant by a wake up call.
Ritual beatings (go fetch me a switch boy) are much different. I have never and will never do that.
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thrawn, afrann, how many children you guys have?
oh if I may ask, what are your current occupations?
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Originally posted by midnight Target
roadkill.... sry.
When a 3 yr. old wants to run into the street, a swat on the behind may just save their life. Thats what I meant by a wake up call.
Ritual beatings (go fetch me a switch boy) are much different. I have never and will never do that.
Now that's roadkill. Hell breaking her legs would be a better way of saving her from running across the street. Rationalise hitting your kid all you want but don't expect me to agree with it.
thrawn, afrann, how many children you guys have?
oh if I may ask, what are your current occupations?
One daughter.
I work in tech support.
My wife has been child caretaker for six years. She has helped raised children from 2 weeks to 12 years. If you want, I get her to explain some alternative parenting technics as she is much more familiar with them then I. :)
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MT I need discipline- spank me. Please.
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Arfann and Thrawn, how many boys have you parented? In my experience, people who are so adament about corporal punishment being abusive either have no real experience parenting boys or they have no problem with letting their children misbehave in public.
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hehe your not a parent until you have 2 kids, its a whole different world.
IMHO the majority of "timeout" kids I have delt with are a pain. Just a bunch of freaking monkeys. Ritual beating IMHO is wrong but sometimes a quick pop on the fanny does wonders. When I only had my oldest running around, life was grand, she was an angel. We did the "timeout" thing with her, worked pretty good. Then our 2nd came along, uggh sibling rivalry. Time out just didn't work. So I went off of how I was raised, i.e. "wait till daddy comes home". Man did that solve a lot of problems. But kids are all individuals and different things work for different reasons.
Oh and I found the ticket thing works good also. Give them each 10 tickets, take some away if they do wrong and give some if they do right. At the end of the week, ones with all ten tickets get some type of treat.
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BS hblair. You can control a situation without striking your kids - if you think it's necessary, you aren't thinking hard enough.
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Originally posted by hblair
Arfann and Thrawn, how many boys have you parented? In my experience, people who are so adament about corporal punishment being abusive either have no real experience parenting boys or they have no problem with letting their children misbehave in public.
And there are plenty that thrust their illbehaved children on the public, something I'll never understand.
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Well I can count on one hand the number of times I've used a "wake up call" and I have 4 kids. Worked when needed, usually not needed.
And mine turned out ok, only 3 are in prison and the one is bringing home good money at the "Peppermint Club" whatever that is?
:p
Sorry Thrawn, you can raise your kids your way, but a swat on the butt is NOT harmful to their psyche.
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I have a 3 year old and 8 month old, both girls.
I have also taught high-risk 1st grade for 3 years (20+ kids, plenty of "evil" boys :) ).
I would turn mom in. (As an educator, I am legally required to report suspicions of abuse/neglect.)
Sounds to me like the three year old has already learned to respond to situations with violence. Wonder where he got that from?
eskimo
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Originally posted by eskimo2
I have a 3 year old and 8 month old, both girls.
I have also taught high-risk 1st grade for 3 years (20+ kids, plenty of "evil" boys :) ).
I would turn mom in. (As an educator, I am legally required to report suspicions of abuse/neglect.)
Sounds to me like the three year old has already learned to respond to situations with violence. Wonder where he got that from?
eskimo
Come on Eskimo, are you suggesting that every 3 year old that bites or hits another child has been abused? :rolleyes:
Kids do not interact well socially by nature, not how we want them to anyhow. They are selfish and must be taught.
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Originally posted by Kratzer
BS hblair. You can control a situation without striking your kids - if you think it's necessary, you aren't thinking hard enough.
"Striking" :) Come on man. Not all kids behave the same. Not all kids are at a maturity level that they can be reasoned with.
I have a cousin who decided along with his wife on the "hands off" approach to discipline. They time-out their boy to death. He was over at my parents last summer with his grandmother screaming and yelling and pitching a big 'ol fit when it was time to leave. His parents weren't there. He had zero respect for his grandmother and the kids like 7 or 8 years old. Sorry, but the hands-free approach doesn't work in all cases. Now, it might make you feel warm and cozy, but the kid doesn't always benefit. Some people just can't get past the pop of a hand on a rear end. It seems so barbaric I guess. When I was a kid I knew the difference between my mom swatting my rear and me hitting my brother with a balled up fist. I knew it was punishment. There were no lasting effects from it. I knew it wasn't abuse. I knew this at 5 or 6 yrs old. Why can't mature adults figure this out? It's not that hard really. We've become too educated for our own good. :)
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Oh yeah, my cousins son who has never been spanked can fight like a mofo. He got into it with my 6 yr old, and was actually slinging fists. My "corporally disciplined" boy was outclassed. The kids a spoiled brat and mom and dad are in for a world of hurt when he gets to be a teen.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Well I can count on one hand the number of times I've used a "wake up call" and I have 4 kids. Worked when needed, usually not needed.
Sorry Thrawn, you can raise your kids your way, but a swat on the butt is NOT harmful to their psyche.
Quit couching terms. You have commited an act of violence on your child, in order to control their behaviour. If you've never hear of non-coersive methods before then using punitive measures is understandable, you might not have realized there are other methods. Now you do.
hblair, I don't consider anyone qualifed to give parental advice or even call them self a parent until the have raised 15 boys and 13 girls. :p
The number of children a person has in no way reflects their ability as a parent. It only reflects their ability to imprenate thier wife or get pregnant.
And for every anecdotal story someone has about how a child that was hit as a child turned out great, I have one for a child that wasn't hit turned out great as well. The difference is that one child was hit by their parents and the other was not.
Commiting acts of violence on your child is a moral choice. We know that you don't HAVE to do it and still have a well adjusted child. There are OTHER methods. Anything else is just an excuse.
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My advice for Mike.. you already mentioned you'd follow up with the chaplain, and i agree with other posters here that indicated it's quite possible the mom, under extreme stress; overeacted.
anything in disciplining kids done to an extreme is harmful. This includes violence and 'just giving then time outs'. If whatever you are doing ain't getting results, you'd better by-god back the truck up and try a diffrent route, pronto.
having said that, I'm a firm beliver in 'spare the rod, spoil the child'.
I have seen and experienced far to much physical abuse as a kid. My dad was exceptionally violent, as a result; I had huge misgivings about smacking my kid. Unfortunately, my wife had similar experiences as a child, she was not at all inclined to swat the kid when she got outta line.. and was absolutely insistent that I never smack our kid. Ever. For any reason whatsoever. She read somehwere in a diddlyin book that abused kids grow up to be abusvie parents. she was determined that that would not happen.
I have a teenage daughter.. she certainly is an example of 'spare the rod'.. At the age of three, the kid was a spoiled rotten lil brat. If any child need an occasional well timed ass-wuppin; mine sure did. One time at the age of six, she ran out of the house, chasing after an ice-cream truck; with money she took from the kitchen counter that did not belong to her, with her mother right behind her yelling and screamin "stop". She was hit by a car. Not my kid. My wife. The kid, oblivious; got the ice-cream.. I got the hospital bill. The kid was never punished.
You know how many times I had cautioned her mother to THAT point that 'one day, you'll tell that child to 'stop', and she wont and THEN...'
*sigh*
At the age of 14, this same kid stole my now ex-wifes car. When my ex-wife called me, and asked me to join in the search, I told her to call the police. She refused. I called them anyway. Then I went lookin for the kid. Found my ex's car, at the mall, pulling outta the parkinglot, with some other kid behind the wheel of the car, which was packed with other losers. My kid was in the backseat, on another boys lap.
I cut the car off, walked up to the divers side and pulled the keys out, told the other kids to get lost and told my kid to get into the jeep. On the way home, my kid wigged out.. I'm doing 60mph on the highway; my kid goes hysterical and starts struggling with me for control of the jeep. The attack was very sudden.. I nearly lost control, and I backhanded her so hard in reaction I broke her nose. She collapsed instantly, sobbing.. shocked I'd actually hit her. First words out her mouth were "I'm going to have you arrested!!" First (and last time) I ever laid a hand on that kid in anger.
When I got her home, it was a good thing I had called the police.. (they were there, getting a stolen vehicle report from my flabergasted ex-wife) because her mother was ready to have ME arrested after just one look and not even asking for an explanation. "You had no reason"... before she even attempted to determine what happened; I was the bad guy. When I explained the situation to the cop his look of disgust focused on my ex-wife wilted her and my daughter instantly. Regardless.. if that car had not been registered in my name, I'd probably have been arrested. In this sick PC world, I'm responsible, and guilty till proven innocent. If we are to believe what Ant says "there is no reason to ever strike a child" I can point to a community full of Dr. Spocks lil monsters and say with not just a lil indignation "See what you helped create?"
Spare the rod?? Horseshit. Puppy misbehaves, puppy gets smacked with a newspaper. Works fer puppys, works for kids. Should you chose to 'not' disipline children before the age of 5, you can all to easily get a kid like mine.
Life sucks big time. Some problems, even when you know what the solutions are; remain beyond the ability of mere mortals to obtain. One things for sure.. Dr Spock, my ex-wife and all their smarmy protoges are still right up there on my "worlds most derserving of swift kicks in the ass" list.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Spare the rod?? Horseshit. Puppy misbehaves, puppy gets smacked with a newspaper. Works fer puppys, works for kids.
No wonder she turned out the way she did, you were probably feeding her the kibble and the dog bacon and eggs. Dogs are not people and people are not dogs. By that logic if your kid bites someone you should get out the ol' rifle and put them down.
Should you chose to 'not' disipline children before the age of 5, you can all to easily get a kid like mine.[/B]
Or not. Very interesting story but it's completely inductively biased.
For what it's worth, if my 14 year old kid freaked out in our car and stared grabbing for the wheel, I would have decked them. Instincts or not.
Edit: The one question we'll never be able to answer is, how your daughter would have turned out if you hit her as a form of punishment.
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Thrawn Tell me how you decided that any parent who spanks a child is committing abuse. And What gives you the Right to tell those who do spank how to raise their children.
1. Are you going to pay for blown up Mailboxes
2. Are you going to pay for and take care of Their babies
3. You going to come to my house and search for daughter when she stays out late.
4. You going to come to the School when teachers call and say we are having problems getting your children to behave?
5. You going to be there when they abuse animals and then gradulate to humans?
6. You going to be there when they slap their mother. ( tell me one parent whos child hasn't swung in angry once)
7. You going to be there and put out fire they may start.
Last when they are killed by stanger or hit by a car or jump off bridge to swim and drown. You going to come to our houses And mend our hearts and souls. And take away are regrets?
If you can;t answer yes to all the above.You have no right to condemn anyone for how they choose to raise THIER CHILDREN.......
And any parent knows this is a never ending list. You do your best and get help if needed that is all any child needs.
Now for my own children If they got a spanking it was after 3 strike rule. Tried other forms if they continued to do same thing third time it was spaking and then a talk on how and why they were spanked. My oldest Daughter got spanking for smoking. Her responce to other forms were its my body, everyone else doing it. Did the grounding took away TV. took away phone. 3rd time I found her smoking she got spanking next time she got spanking in front of friends when she was caught with them. Then only only then did she got the hint she was not going to smoke until she left home. Now She has her Masters and is going on to her PHD in Chemical Engineering. she has told me many times now she was glad I cared enough and loved her enough to protect her from smoking and other things.
Now I kids I grew up with had spankings and turned out as bad as they come. I believe that they wouldv'e been like this with or without spankings. most of the bad kids I saw growing up it was ones that parents never around unless it was to spank or to talk after they were all ready in trouble.
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Time out works with some kids but not for others. The same thing can be said for spankings.
I think it should be left up to the parent since they are the ones that know their kids the best.
If you see her beat him regularly then by all means call the cops but for one incident that was a high stress situation I think I would let it go.
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Originally posted by sidthekid
Thrawn Tell me how you decided that any parent who spanks a child is committing abuse.
Child abuse
n : the physical or emotional or sexual mistreatment of children
Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University
And What gives you the Right to tell those who do spank how to raise their children.
The fact that no staff member of HTC has told me to stfu up...yet. It's not like I can MAKE anyone on this board do anything. I haven't even TOLD them to do anything. I have suggested a course of action, (researching non-coersive technics). That it.
If you can;t answer yes to all the above.You have no right to condemn anyone for how they choose to raise THIERCHILDREN.......
I will not answer your question as they all have an underlying assusmption that I do not agree with. That these things WILL come to pass if you don't use punitive methods raising you children.
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Kids don't act out because their parents aren't beating them - they act out because of toejamty parenting.
Scaring your kids into submission might work, but it's the easy way out.
Same thing as people hitting their dogs. I've never hit mine, and she's the best behaved, sweetest german shepherd you will ever meet.
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Same thing as people hitting their dogs. I've never hit mine, and she's the best behaved, sweetest german shepherd you will ever meet
(im only 14 but i think this needs some talk from a childs veiwpoint)
this has been said bye every dog owner ever but dogs still attack people
there is no reason to spank your child except in extreme cases but when you have to first explain to them what they did was wrong why it was wrong.
for the most part parents should just send there kids to there room until the kids calmed down and thought about what theyve done. thats what my parents (still do for me)
now my little brother was rarely ever sent to his room andhe was never spanked. my dad has yelled at him a couple times but thats it. he is now the worst behaved little snothead i have ever met.
but as to the original question :
dont phone social services until it happens again. from what you said shes a military wife and was at the time over concerned about her other kid and people DO NOT act rationally or the way they would normally when there under a lot of stress and their kids hurt. but if it happens again for no apparent reason THEN phone social services.
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Originally posted by vorticon
this has been said bye every dog owner ever but dogs still attack people
If I'd said this as an excuse right after my dog attacked someone, then you might have a points... as it stands...
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Interestingly enough, seeing eye dogs aren't trained using punitive methods. Nor are they rewarded with food. When they do something right they are shown love and attention.
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I was raised in the South mostly, where corporal punishment is the normal way of doing things. I never met anybody that seemed the worse for this. I myself was spanked many times as a punishment, both in school and at home. I seem to have turned out fine.
Practidally all the kids I have known that have turned out badly were not disciplined effectively at home. I am trying to think of exceptions as far as people that I have known. I can only think of perhaps one person that was spanked as a child, that refused to change his behavior, and persisted in bad behavior, and even he finally straightened out as an adult for the most part. On the other hand, I have known plenty of kids that were not disciplined that went bad. There were plenty of kids that were not spanked that were good kids for the most part, but every juvenile delinquent I have known grew up in an atmosphere of no discipline, or no love. Both are necessary, discipline and love. One without the other, will result in failure most of the time. There are always exceptions of course, and there are kids that will have everything going for them, and they grow up in homes with lots of love and strong discipline, but still go bad. These are the exceptions, and not the rule.
We have more problems with violence today than we ever had in the past in this country, and less people spank their kids today than did 100 years ago. I do not draw the conclusion that this is a cause/effect relationship, but I still think that its interesting to note that if spanking has such harmful effects, and causes violence, why didnt we have much worse problems in say the 19th century US, when practically everybody spanked their children.
Spanking as a method of punishment, when applied reasonably can be quite effective. This is not child abuse. Harming a child IS child abuse. Beating a child qualifies as abuse. Spanking does not. There are some kids that will not respond to any lesser punishment. Of course there are kids that will not even respond to this, but I think that these cases are rare.
I think that keeping discipline in the home is a matter of having clear rules, with well-defined punishments. The punishments must be consistently carried out or the effect is lost.
This is an issue that will always be debated I suppose, with those that were raised in homes that did not spank, not able to see the other viewpoint, and vice versa. I think that calling it child abuse is pretty ridiculous though. There are plenty of us that were raised in homes and were spanked regularly as a punishment, and we turned out fine, and we love our parents. We were not harmed in any way by this experience, on the contrary, I feel that I would not have as much self-discipline as an adult if I had not been strictly disciplined as a child.
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I spanked my kids, and I'm glad. GLAD!, do you HEAR! :D
Honestly, some of you guys are out to lunch on the spanking issue. Big difference between spanking and beating, though apparently this is escaping some...:rolleyes:
I love the parents that brag about never spanking their kids... and just laugh to myself when the kid tells the parents what they can do with their "instructions".
"Now Johnny, Mommy doesn't like it when you talk that way. I'm very disappointed!"
"So?"
"Johnny. Is there something wrong? Have I made you angry? Is this my fault?"
"I dunno. Who cares? Leave me alone!"
"Johnny, talk to Mommy. What have I done wrong?"
Of course, my all-time favorite was the grandmother trying to talk to her grandson, who was leaning back on the bench and kicking at her face with the heels of his feet. Nah, he didn't need a spanking, he needed more hugs. :rolleyes:
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Tell me, Thrawn, can a seeing-eye dog learn how to manipulate your emotions, lie, or endanger itself by doing things behind your back that it understands you do not want it to do... you know, precognition?
Does the dog have the ability to willingly hurt others for the sheer thrill of watching others suffer?
Does the dog's cognitive ability lag significantly behind its physical growth to the point it can walk into traffic without understanding why it is dangerous? (Yes, but you can chain the dog up)
Spanking has its place. Children outgrow the need for it, and somehow survive to become worthwhile citizens with a proper perspective on life and justice.
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I do not spank my kids and I'm glad. Glad!
I consider my children to be some of the best behaved children I know.
Go ahead and beat your kids if it makes you feel better. There are alternatives and notion of "spare the rod, spoil the child" is not necessarily true.
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Originally posted by Kieran
Does the dog have the ability to willingly hurt others for the sheer thrill of watching others suffer?
No they can't. But I wasn't the one that introduced the dog/child analogy.
Spanking has its place. Children outgrow the need for it, and somehow survive to become worthwhile citizens with a proper perspective on life and justice.
How do explain the fact, that people can also raise children, to become worthwhile citizens with a proper perspective on life and justice, without once spanking them?
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Go ahead and beat your kids if it makes you feel better. There are alternatives and notion of "spare the rod, spoil the child" is not necessarily true.
I'm simply not enlightened enough.
I don't really beat them so much, as I merely lock them in the basement. They yell a little bit, but as long as I toss a piece of meat down there once in a while, they seem a bit quieter. Of course, before the younger one grew, the rats took advantage of their numbers and gave the girls a run for their money, but now they are more of a dietary suppliment than anything else. I will admit their pasty skin is not very attractive, but I like to think of it as me protecting them from the melanoma they would certainly catch if they were out in the sun.
Now, if I have a really bad day at work I might go down and "hit the heavy bag" for 15 minutes or so, and top it off with 10 minutes on the "speedbag" (that little one can really run now!), but this doesn't happen all that much. Besides, I have the wife upstairs, and I don't have to bend over to beat her. It's easier on my back that way.
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LOL... :)
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Oh fer krise sakes! Why do these things always polarize like its all or nothing?
I almost never swatted my kids, and it worked for me. I spent 5 years teaching special ed, and training people how to apply behavior modification. Anyone who has experienced this will tell you that positive reinforcement is preferable, and that negative reinforcement is very powerful.
But if you really want to screw with someone's psyche, raise them in Canada :p .
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Ever seen a canine mom discipline her kid?
She looks him right in the eye and they have a little "doggie discussion" in ultra gentle tones... whines, whimpers and short cute barks. She reasons with the pup in "dog language". Then, when the pup understands, they both wag their tails and lick each others faces.
There ya go. Mother Nature knows best. ;)
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Oh fer krise sakes! Why do these things always polarize like its all or nothing?
I almost never swatted my kids, and it worked for me.
Read:
almost never = often
swatted = beat with meat hooks
my kids = other peoples babies
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Read:
almost never = often
swatted = beat with meat hooks
my kids = other peoples babies
Durn canadians can't take a stinkin joke! I work with some of them too! They all have heads that open in half and they fart constantly!!
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If not spanking your kids works thats great. But just because it works in your case doesn't mean it works for everyone else.
And for you guys who view spanking a childs rear as abuse, you might need some therapy. When I spank my boys rears I'm not trying to hurt them, just sting their rear. >Pop!< Big deal. I don't know where you get that it's some kinda *beating* or *striking* thing. That's some sad twisted crap. I hope you're not doing that.
Thrawn and whoever else, did you have any brothers close to your age growing up? Are you or have you raised 2 or more boys who's ages are within 2-3 years of each other?
I get the feeling you guys have a couple of lil girls or something. ;)
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Thrawn
Child abuse
n : the physical or emotional or sexual mistreatment of children
Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University
I must be blind OR is Spanking not in there?
And if your going to say its mistreatment than any form of of discipline could be twisted to say its mistreatment.
Toad careful your anology is wrong. If seen animals snipe and youngsters when humans approached in Africa. also seen a fox and many other animals grab its young with its mouth clamping around neck and running off. Guess I shouldv'e yelled Child abuse.
Not 1 state in USA says Spanking is child abuse as far as I know not 1 country passed a law on outlawing spanking. Please if wrong tell me where.....
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uh... Sid....
I raise dogs. I know how they discipline. Probably everyone else knows too.
"It was a joke, son, I say a JOKE!"
;)
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I've been 'in it'.. sittin right if front of MY situation for almost 20 years now. I've been told, unanimously by every shrink and therapist my kid has had that my childs intractable behavior was as a result of 'inconsistent behavior modification' during the formative personality years.
What THAT mealy mouthed buncha noise boils down to is this.. When the kid was told by me; not to do something, the childs mother would invariably say 'stop picking on her, she's only a child'. Or 'it's allright, leave her be..' It was rare indeed that when she did something I didn't want her to do, she was not excused by some 'higher authority'.. Mom.
Mom was and is over-protective and horribly over permissive. Mom taught this kid to argue, taught this kid it's ok to ignore parents and other authority figures, taught this kid by aquiesence that temper tantrums and agrssive destructive behavior that she could get more of what she wanted. Attention. Pretty soon there was no diffrence between bad attention and good attention.. it was attention.
the kid soon learned to manipulate her situation.. sometimes just for toejams and giggles, she'd set up a fight between mom and dad.. do something to get daddy pissed, daddy hollers at kid, mom hollers at dad, then gives kid whatever she wanted that i denied.. Soon, even when mom was not around the kid would still 'play the game'. She'd do something 'bad', dad would send her to her room. Mom would come home, kid would rush out wailing 'daddys been mean to me.." Mom would shreik at dad, and kids instantly off punishment.
*sigh*
I left her. Nothin else I could do, really. stayin was makin it worse.. or so i thought. turns out that things got much worse.
The deal is, when she was 3 and she started throwin temper tantrums at the supermarket, If ida been 'allowed' to paddle her lil bottom right then and there, then taken her home and given her a time out.. well; whaddya wanna bet a whole toejamload of grief woulda been avoided. Whaddya wanna bet that if her mom disagreed with my stern disiclinary measures BUT KEPT HER FREAKIN TRAP SHUT AND DISCUSSED IT WITH ME PRIVATELY LATER, the kid woulda NOT turned out to be so gawdamned messed up.
Paddlin a 4 year olds kids fanny when they need it is NOT child abuse.
It's discipline. Spare that rod, you'll spoil the child. I got proof. very expensive high maintenance living breathing diddlyed up proof.
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Sounds like lack of discipline to me...
Note... lack of corporal punishment does not equal lack of discipline.
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bingo.
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Johnny is 2 1/2 years old. johnnys a headstrong lil boy.
Johnny pops his cousin in the eye because the cousin won't share his toy.
You make Johnny aware that his behavior is not proper by scolding him sternly and ending play time with a time out. Johnny shrieks and refuses to go to the time out chair. When you attempt to move johnny physicly to the time out chair he swings at you. When you pick him up he bites you.
you do what?
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This is Thrawn's wife, I go by Tang online.
In my opinion there is no *need* to spank your kids. In my experience spanking and time outs rarely work in the overall picture. It may work to stop the behaviour at the time but it does little to teach the child what they should do instead. You just end up in a cycle or the kid learns to hide the behaviour so they don't get caught.
I see a lot of people in this thread equating not spanking your kids to being a permissive parent. That doesn't have to be the case. Punishment is not discipline. Discipline implies you are teaching. There is also the fact that a lot of people see age appropriate behaviour as needing to be punished. Positive and permissive are worlds appart.
Children are the only people in our society that we are allowed to hit. If another adult does something we don't want them to it is illegal to hit them. In my opinion children deserve to have the same rights as everyone else.
I have never been in any way permissive with any of the children I have looked after and I've never spanked or done time outs. A little creativity and forethought can go a long way towards making life easier and positive in general. As an example before you take the 3 yr old to the grocery store make sure they are not hungry or tired. Bring a snack or a toy so you have something to give them to keep them occupied. Give them a *job*, let them pick out the veggies etc..If nothing works and they still have tantrums, take them home or don't try to to take them shopping in the first place. It is very age appropriate for a three yr old to tantrum when they are overwhelmed. My point is you need to teach them how to behave in the store. Sticking them in the cart and expecting them to be quiet is unrealistic in my view.
As for boys aged two yrs apart who constanly want to kill each other.....I have always found that at least an hour or two of exercise a day and no tv before dinner does wonders. :D Getting them involved in disciplined/team sports is good too.
I could go on and on about my philosophy on childrearing but I don't want to bore ya'll. If you are interested do some research on positive parenting it doesn't mean you let your kids do whatever they want it means you teach them.
As long as you aren't leaving marks or harming your kids it's up to you if you want to spank. It doesn't, however, mean I think it's right.
Gotta go, I'm needed :) hope that made sense.
Tangwystl
(13 yrs experience as a nanny/caregiver, aunt to 6 and mom to 1 in case anyone is interested.)
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24 years as caregiver, Father of 5 uncle to 23 total number of spankings as discipline maybe 30. total spankings given 330.
Now 300 were on birthdays other 30 were not much harder. Can't speak for others but I spank but not without explanations.
Worst spanking was oldest daughter age 12 for smoking because everyone was doing it. That was after showing her what would happen if she smoked later in life and probally 3 months of trying all kinds of talks. Wasn't till she got spanked in front of friends did she stop. Hardest thing for a Father to do is spank his daughters, at least for me. And i can only speak for my self. I have no doubt in my mind. the thought of a spanking by my grandfather is only reason I never smoked drank or did any type of drugs...... I can tell you out of 20 players on my highschool team in early 70's I was only one who didn't try drugs or smoking. Not sure how they were brought up, But they all knew if they came out to our farm. They better not bring any thing to smoke,Liquor or drugs.
I'd like to know what thrawn and tang think the reason so many children. Are in trouble with law, kill kids, do drugs, get pregnant and many other problems that have tripled since 1970's. I think Its because of "so called new ways to parenting"
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Thrawn again.
Youth crime in Canada is decreacing.
Across Canada in rural and urban neighbourhoods, the overall youth crime rate is declining. Between 1991 and 1997, the charge rate for young people dropped from 643 to 495 per 10,000 youth in the population ¾ a 23% decrease.
Only a small number of youth are involved in serious and repeat criminal acts, particularly acts of violence. In 1997, 82% of charges laid against youth were for non-violent crime like theft, drug possession and contempt of court orders. 18 % were for violent crimes ¾ a 2% drop from the previous year.
http://canada.justice.gc.ca/en/news/nr/1999/yoafact4.html
Juvenile violent crime is dropping very quickly in the US.
In 1997, according to victims’ reports, 70,000 serious violent crimes involved one or more juvenile offenders between the ages of 12 and 17. The 1997 juvenile violent crime rate of 31 crimes per 1,000 youth in the general population dropped from a high of 52 per 1,000 in 1993 and is the lowest rate since 1986. When compared to the number of violent crimes nationwide, violent crimes committed by juveniles comprise about 1 in 4 of all violent crimes.
http://www.childstats.gov/ac1999/teenrel.asp
It is a very difficult questions to answer though as statics on this subject weren't even kept until the 1970's.
This shows that number of children that are victimised by other children has dropped dramatically, since 1980.
Table BEH4.A Youth victims of serious violent crimes: Number and rate of victimizations for youth ages 12 to 17 by age, race, and gender, 1980-99
http://www.childstats.gov/ac2001/xBEH4A.asp
Teen pregnancy rate has dropped significantly in the US, since 1986.
http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/teen_preg_stats.html#t1
The above link is from here
http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/teen_preg_stats.html
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Tang
ur kid probably doesn't need to be spanked but I know Thrawn does :)
Most kids need a spanking, whether they get it or not. You can talk to your blue in the face to some and get nowhere - others talk is all you need. This group is in the minority, if your child is in it, I am glad for you. Most kids I've seen/experienced are not - the parents think they are and are thus owned by their little darling spoiled- rotten rugrat.
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I have a brother one year older and another one year younger. We fought every single day. Mom didn't spank (generally), dad did. Dad was the only reason that house is still standing.
My brothers and I would have literally high-fived one another if we had been given "time-out". When mom sent us to our room we just smiled to ourselves, I kid you not.
We wouldn't have acted out in public anywhere, because we knew what would happen if we did. We didn't have to be bribed, distracted, or overfed before we went. We knew the proper conduct and the consequences for not following them... hey! just like life!
As we grew we began to notice other families, and began to notice other kids talking back to the parents. Instinctively we knew this wasn't right and unacceptable, yet marvelled how the parents bargained with the kids. We laughed.
You don't bargain discipline.
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"Teen pregnancy rate has dropped significantly in the US, since 1986. "
dunno what this has to do with this thread but the reason for the drop is because Planned Parenthood now gives out birth control to 12 YEAR OLDs, 12! And can give it out without a parents consent! I think PP encourages said behavior as without it, they wouldn't have a job.
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:( Kieran, I'm oh so so sorry you were physically abused as a child. :( I can't believe your parents struck you. :(
Thrawns wife, Does nanny/caregiver mean you go home at the end of the day? If so, you have one live-in child of your own?
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C'mon Thrawn 'n Tang.. What about lil Johnny??
Yah gave me 123 paragraphs on 'there is always annother way'..
lets hear it! What specificaly in this circumstance is appropriate treatment fel lil Johnny? He's defied you, used violence, has thrown and is throwing a destructive temper tantrum.. further, isolation and scolding has demonstrated itself as ineffective in the past, the behavior pattern of "if I hit and scream and raise holy hell & I'll eventually get what i want.." is beginnning to take root..
Tranqilizer dart him?
c'mon, folks; whats the 'appropriate non-violent' course of action?
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You must reason with lil johnny Hang. You must teach him goodness, not badness. If he begins breaking glass jars on the floor of the supermarket, well ask him to please stop. If that doesn't work tell him to please stop. If that doesn't work, give him a nifty job to improve his sense of worth. If that doesn't work, well, you shouldn't have taken him to the grocery to start with!
Whatever you do, NEVER EVER pop his rear with your open hand to get his attention. He will lose all self respect and you will be a big bully thug!
(sorry guys, couldn't resist :p )
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Child behaviorial experts all agree that positive re-inforcement should be present at all times of behavior that is demonstrated as good behavior...but they also agree that consequences for bad behavior are necessary. Granted, the more you positively reinforce your children, the less likelihood that you'll ever need to apply negative or consequencial behavior methods.
Now, I'm SURE we've all been in the grocery line where the kids are just plain and simply out of control, and the mother is bliss about the whole affair...sometimes a good sharp swat on the butt to get their attention is just whats needed...
Then you have parents like Thrawn and Tang that are very fortunate to have kids who temperment is very even...good for you..I personally wish I would never have to discipline my boys, but unforturnately, I don't want to be the parent that folks stare at in public because my kids are completely out of hand because I'm using YOUR method of child rearing (I do in the positive reinforcement part).
There is no "one way" to raise a kid..but one thing is certain..they DO need positive reinforcement all the time when they're behavior is good. If you are consistent on this, the chances are you'll be dealing less with unwanted behavior.
Now, Tang, get your hubby in a good rehab program...then you'll really have a complete family. ;)
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LOL, I just asked my 14 yr old if she remembers getting spanked. She sat there for a long time and said the only thing she remembers was the time I threw something at her. I gasped! What did I ever throw at you? I said.
Last year she reminded me of the time she wasn't where she was supposed to be, missed her bus because she was talking to a boy at football practice! I threw a pillow at her when I got her home. Luckily the boy was gone when I picked her up, because I wasn't thinking "pillow" at that time.
That I guess is the extent of my personal child abuse. I hope all goes well for you Thrawn & Tang. Just remember that kids have a way of taking a perfectly performing little household and shredding it to a pulp in their tiny little cute pudgy fingers.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Tranqilizer dart him?
LOL
Mutual of Omaha
I'm picturing Marlon Perkins sending in his sidekick Jim to wrestle the unruly tike into the shopping cart. :D
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Midnight, my parents said they had to spank me more as a child than my sisters...but I don't remember one spanking to this date...I do remember things from 2 years old, such as my sisters trying to steal my icecream, and other silly things like that, but the spankings? Don't remember them at all.
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Eagler, I wasn't the one that brought up teen pregnancy.
Kierian, we don't believe time outs necessarily work, as my wife stated in her post.
Ripsnort, non-coersion doesn't mean being blissfully unaware.
You guys aren't stupid, so I know you can understand the posts. Are you just not reading them?
hblair, no she does not necessarily go home at the end of the day. She's taken care of other peoples kids for weeks at a time.
Hang, my wife will post a response shortly.
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Originally posted by wulfie
Well, the Mom grabs the 3 year old by one arm and really yanks him aside. Like his neck cracked like a whip. And then she slaps him hard on the cheek and spanks him *really* hard on his butt...for kicking me.
So Mom really smacked him hard. Like 3 fingers visible on the kid's cheek.
Mike/wulfie
imo she went too far from your description and should have someone talk to her about the difference between getting a childs attention for correcting behavior and smacking them in the face (imo nothing ever calls for someone to hit a child in the face) and spanking them repeatedly extra hard...
chaplain , ( i think i read later on in this thread) was prolly the best call you could make.
At least he'll be around to see if anything bad shows up with those kids..(bruises, more broken arms etc)
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Originally posted by AKIron
Come on Eskimo, are you suggesting that every 3 year old that bites or hits another child has been abused? :rolleyes:
No, but I think that this kid has been. Mom has a problem and can't control herself. The kid has or will learn the same behavior.
Originally posted by AKIron
Kids do not interact well socially by nature, not how we want them to anyhow. They are selfish and must be taught.
I think kids do interact well socially by nature. They certainly have problems with each other at times, but also show compassion to all people and creatures, and very often are morally more honorable than most adults (in many respects).
I managed a first grade classroom for three years. Many/some of the parents of my students were: drug dealers, in gangs, in jail, on welfare, dead, single parents, dead-beat-dads, alcoholics and were abusive and neglectful. These parents often complained that their kids had no respect for them and wouldn't behave no matter what they did. In my classroom, however, these same kids would often behave, follow directions and treat others with respect, even though they knew that I would never hit them.
Even the "worst" kids respond well to positive re-enforcement. If kids know that you love and respect them, that you care about them, that you would never hurt them, they will behave reasonably. My classroom was a "haven" where my students felt safe.
If they misbehaved, they lost privileges.
Doing wrong meant a calm discussion with me over what kind of behavior is expected, (followed by an apology to whomever, if appropriate), and temporarily losing a privilege.
I never hit a kid.
My students had at least one role model who could deal with any situation without resorting to violence.
eskimo
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I totally read your stuff, and completely understand it. To boil it down to its essence, you've said that under no circumstance should any parent resort to spanking, and the suggestion is that any parent that does has simply lost control of their anger.
And you're wrong.
It seems you assume that people that spank do so as a first resort and with little provocation. It seems you view them as out-of-control, almost enjoying, even looking forward to, the experience. Sorry, that isn't how it is.
That list of creative solutions your wife posted includes some serious flaws- chief amongst them is the concept that misdirection equals discipline. Wrong. Giving the child a job may prevent the problem from occuring, but it doesn't solve the problem if it occurs- and sooner or later, problems do occur. Exercising the boys may wear them out, but it didn't teach them to deal with one another socially, nor did it teach them conflict resolution. In short, I saw the list as avoiding situations (great), but devoid of how to handle scenarios such as those outlined by Hangtime and Hblair.
Sure there are parents that avoid corporal punishment. My sister-in-law has a 2-year-old that is defiant. The sister asked my wife how she kept our daughters from doing the things her daughter is now doing. "I smacked their hand". Of course that is just barbaric to the sister, so the 2-year-old continues to do as she pleases. Meanwhile, all it takes to get our daughters to do anything is to tell them. Both of them have a grand total of perhaps 10 spankings between them- and I can't remember the last one for either- and are very well behaved. Neither one have ever had a mark left on them. Both of them do understand spanking isn't the first option, but it IS an option.
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I guess I should reply to the original poster, wulfie.
Yes, I think the woman went too far. I don't believe you should ever strike a child on the face or "jerk" them around like that.
I do believe that a spanking is justified for extremely bad behavior, but as they get older, there are other methods that work much better such as loss of priveliges. Spanking beyond the age of 3 or 4 is pointless and in some cases can cause long term effects (apparently).
Again, most of this negative reinforcement can be avoided with positive reinforcement. When your kids are playing together nicely, or with the neighbor kids, tell them. Reward them. Tell them what great kids they are. And first and foremost, always tell them you love them. Hug them.
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Tang again, not sure how to use the quote feature so I used [] to denote quotes.
["if I hit and scream and raise holy hell & I'll eventually get what i want.." is beginnning to take root.. ]
This only happens if they get what they want. Are you giving them the toy because they scream for it. That would not happen in my house.
Didn't see this last night [Johnny is 2 1/2 years old. johnnys a headstrong lil boy.
Johnny pops his cousin in the eye because the cousin won't share his toy.
You make Johnny aware that his behavior is not proper by scolding him sternly and ending play time with a time out. Johnny shrieks and refuses to go to the time out chair. When you attempt to move johnny physicly to the time out chair he swings at you. When you pick him up he bites you.
you do what?]
What would I do? First of all most 2 yr old do not understand *share*. Taking turns usually works better.
["Johnny pops his cousin in the eye because the cousin won't share his toy" ] - Johnny would be physically removed from the situation.
["You make Johnny aware that his behavior is not proper by scolding him sternly and ending play time with a time out. "] - I don't think time outs work for most kids. They usually just piss them off. I would tell J we don't hurt other people..yada yada... and model what Johnny should have done. Asking his cousin for a turn. If J repeated the performance, that's it, play time is over and we leave. If that's not possible, seperated from cousin. The natural consequences are J doesn't get the toy unless his behaviour is appropriate, if it isn't he doesn't get to play with his cousin and or cousin won't want to play with him. You can scold a 2 year old all you want but if you don't tell them what they should have done they aren't likely to think of it by themselves, they are only 2.
I don't see how hitting your kid because they hit someone makes any sense. It just teaches them that only people in authority are allowed to hit, not that hitting is wrong.
The thing about tantrums is that I don't care what other people are thinking if we are in public. The kid can tantrum all they want they still are not going to get whatever they want. If I feel they are bothering people I would simply leave. Spanking in public to stop a tantrum isn't done to help the child behave it is usually done because you are embarassed. Personally I don't care if someone else's kids are having a tantrum at the grocery store, I know how hard it can be to get through the store with kids in tow and I'm not going to judge their entire parenting on one episode.
One family I worked for were very permissive. Their kids put up a fuss and they get what they want. The three year old tried this on me. He learnt quickly that that approach was not going to work. I didn't have to spank him just didn't reward the tantrum with what he wanted and when he was calm told him what was expected of him. After two tantrums that behaviour stopped for me. Five years later he still throws fits at his parents and it works. They use time outs by the way.
["but they also agree that consequences for bad behavior are necessary. "] - I agree, I just don't think consequences has to equal *punishment* in all cases. Lots of things have natural consequences that will teach them more than punishing.
Anyway I'm finding this topic hard to discuss in text and there is a lot more to it than these simple examples. I really don't think I'm gonna change anyone's mind any more than you are going to change mine so I think I'll leave it at that. However I can say that I have never been permissive. I can't stand whiney kids and parents who beg their kids to do things. If you want their behaviour changed get off your bellybutton and intervene and don't set them up in situations they are likely unable to deal with.
Tang
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it's an aggravating world, Tang.. and i appreciate you taking the time to give us your insight.
you are also correct.. it's not at all possible to change my mind regarding appropriate parental behavior.. yes, I woulda paddled lil jonnies heiny, ended play time AND explained to lil johnny why he got spanked and how he should behave. Reasoning alone with a 2 year old is kinda like dealing with politicians. You need not just a carrot, but the presence of the stick to get anywhere. No stick, no performance. No carrot, nothin to work for.
I have abolutely no doubt that by the second or third such episode, lil johnny would not resort to violence and tantrums.. and neither would I.
again.. thank you for your considered and polite response.. it was more than we deserved. ;)
Now.. smack yer hubby up side the head and tell him to take out the garbage, mow the damn lawn, repaint the house and get the damn laundry done, or there's no nooky fer him tonight.
Carrot.. stick. ;)
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sigh- me again, [That list of creative solutions your wife posted includes some serious flaws- chief amongst them is the concept that misdirection equals discipline. Wrong. Giving the child a job may prevent the problem from occuring, but it doesn't solve the problem if it occurs- and sooner or later, problems do occur. Exercising the boys may wear them out, but it didn't teach them to deal with one another socially, nor did it teach them conflict resolution. In short, I saw the list as avoiding situations (great), but devoid of how to handle scenarios such as those outlined by Hangtime and Hblair. ]
No what I didn't include was *punishments*. Teaching your child what they CAN do at the store IS discipline. Two year olds do not inherently know what is socialy acceptable.
As for the boys I wasn't talking about discipline. In my experience though if you take 2 hyper little boys and keep them inside all day and let them watch tv and play nintendo they become irritable, nasty and unreasonable. Why not avoid the situation if you can. Depending on their age they can work stuff out themselves. Seperate activities, involve them in whatever you are doing etc..and explain what is expected of them. If you give them acceptable alternatives to expressing their anger other than beating their brother you ARE disciplining. You are teaching them how to deal with their emotions and feelings in a socially acceptable way. You can come up with your own ideas of what is acceptable in your house wheather it is going for a walk or hitting a punching bag or whatever.
Tang
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Johnny is 2 1/2 years old. johnnys a headstrong lil boy.
Johnny pops his cousin in the eye because the cousin won't share his toy.
You make Johnny aware that his behavior is not proper by scolding him sternly and ending play time with a time out. Johnny shrieks and refuses to go to the time out chair. When you attempt to move johnny physicly to the time out chair he swings at you. When you pick him up he bites you.
you do what?
I know this kid!
His name wasn't Johnny, but I've had a few students just like him!
The answer to this one is simple. But the adult had better be patient, consistent and follow through with what he/she says. As a parent I would say:
"Johnny, you will sit in time-out right now, or you will lose all TV for the rest of today and tomorrow."
- Johnny will probably kick and flail and scream some more.
"Johnny, you have just lost all TV for the rest of today and tomorrow." "You will sit in time-out right now, or you will not be able to use the computer for the rest of today and tomorrow."
- Johnny will may or may not kick and flail and scream some more.
"Johnny, you will not be able to use the computer for the rest of today and tomorrow." "You will sit in time-out right now, or you will not get any desert or candy for the rest of today and tomorrow."
- Repeat as needed.
- What Johnny does at this point (or after your first or second threat of loss of a privilege) is a reflection of how consistent you are as a parent at following through. If you have consistently given-in in the past, or forgotten to follow through you are in for a long drawn out battle.
The most important thing is that you follow through with the loss of privilege that you said would be taken away!
This is very effective if you are consistent.
This method will not be very effective the first time that you try it. Once you prove to your child that you mean what you say however, it will be very effective.
Some may say that a spanking would be quicker and simpler. True, but that does not make it the best method. Being a good parent does not mean that you always choose the simplest and quickest solution.
Just like dogfighting, the best solution isn't always a mutually-destructive, quick and simple Head-On.
Note - I have seen parents spank their kids in grocery stores as well. Spanking does not solve all parenting problems. I have seen kids scream and carry on even louder after being spanked.
When my kid (just turned 3) starts to lose it in the grocery store, all I have to do is whisper in her ear, "Keep that up and no Dragon Tails (TV show) today." A build up to a tantrum dissolves instantly.
eskimo
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Originally posted by Thrawn
. I really don't think I'm gonna change anyone's mind any more than you are going to change mine so I think I'll leave it at that.
Although I do not agree with much of Yrawn's bluster, he's wining me over in this thread. I was spanked, and it worked well enough I suppose, but I'd like to give it a go down a different path. Then again, I don't have any kids yet, so we'll see lol.
-Sikboy
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P.S.
Time-Out should be 1 minute per year of age.
I always tell me daughter why she is going into time-out (and why we shouldn't do whatever). Then she has to tell me the same. At the end of the 3 minutes, she again has to tell me why she went into time-out (and why we shouldn't do whatever).
Then a hug, I confirm to her that I love her, but she needs to behave as expected.
eskimo
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Agreed Eskimo (with the threat of loss of priveleges) I have spanked both my boys, but the offense has to be a severe one...once my oldest when 4 yrs old threw sand in our dogs eyes as the dog stood next to the sand box...I warned him not to do that again, threatened him with loss of privelige (forget what was "hot" with him then..)..of course he did it again out of defiance..so another warning was given..he did it a third time as another show of defiance so I walked up and gave him a swat on the butt. The desired behavior was achieved, he never threw sand at the dog or his face again. He won't be damaged for life but my dog doesn't get near the sand box anymore! :eek:
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[you are also correct.. it's not at all possible to change my mind regarding appropriate parental behavior.. yes, I woulda paddled lil jonnies heiny, ended play time AND explained to lil johnny why he got spanked and how he should behave. Reasoning alone with a 2 year old is kinda like dealing with politicians. You need not just a carrot, but the presence of the stick to get anywhere. No stick, no performance. No carrot, nothin to work for. ]
See in my opinion the *stick* is leaving/no toy/cousin won't play with you.;)
And thanks for being civil yourself. See people play with you when you are nice to them. :P
Tang
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I'm seeing an interesting trend here: Most of the "pro-spanking" people have themselves been physically disciplined as children, while most of the "anti-spankers" have not. Draw your own conclusions :)
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Originally posted by Red Ant
I'm seeing an interesting trend here: Most of the "pro-spanking" people have themselves been physically disciplined as children, while most of the "anti-spankers" have not. Draw your own conclusions :)
Yeah, like liberals are not spanked, and conservatives are, no wonder y'all are messed up! :D
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Originally posted by Sikboy
Although I do not agree with much of Yrawn's bluster, he's wining me over in this thread. I was spanked, and it worked well enough I suppose, but I'd like to give it a go down a different path. Then again, I don't have any kids yet, so we'll see lol.
-Sikboy
I'm affraid I can't take credit as that quote was posted by my wife, who is smarter than me by half. I think I'll follow her lead on this and say, thanks for listening.
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wulfie <--- not ever having kids.
1. Far too strenuos from what I have read here.
2. At the age of 3 I'd be too much of an ally. Kid: "I want only ice cream for dinner Dad!". Wulfie: "Hey, that's a pretty damn good idea..." 8)
Mike/wulfie
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Originally posted by wulfie
wulfie <--- not ever having kids.
1. Far too strenuos from what I have read here.
2. At the age of 3 I'd be too much of an ally. Kid: "I want only ice cream for dinner Dad!". Wulfie: "Hey, that's a pretty damn good idea..." 8)
Mike/wulfie
Wulfie, at age 25-30, I was convinced I would NEVER EVER EVER have children...well, that changed. They're work, but its work that is pleasurable...to see your own kin, to mold and shape them, to give them a world full of the pleasures you enjoyed as a kid, you just can't describe it to a non-parent.
And as for #2, its okay to have ice cream for dinner once in awhile! ;)
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As to the spanking versus timeout discussion..
I'm not a parent, nor will I ever be =)
So I asked my best resource in this matter.
My mom =)
Here is her response
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Me: Did you ever spank me as a child?
Mom: No, I told you why what you did was wrong and made you stand in the corner or go in your room and think about it.
Me: What about when I was too young to understand?
Mom: You always understood "no". but when you were that young you didn't do anything that bad. If you did, I just screamed, tore at my hair and left the room.
----------------
That's pretty much how I respond to other people's kids so now I know where I got it from...
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Somewhere in this thread I think I read where someone was talking about a mom in a grocery store whose kid was flipping out and she was ignoring him...
If anyone thinks that this is the alternative of not spanking, then you are mistaken. Ignoring your child most likely is an example of simply not parenting at all. Or at least its an example of a child rearing philosophy that is as different from spanking as it is from positive reinforcement/loss of privilege.
eskimo
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Originally posted by Red Ant
I'm seeing an interesting trend here: Most of the "pro-spanking" people have themselves been physically disciplined as children, while most of the "anti-spankers" have not. Draw your own conclusions :)
I'm an exception to your trend... My parents used belts, hands, switches.. you name it.
I don't hit my kids.
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Originally posted by wulfie
Okay I'd like to hear from any of you guys who are Parents. I've got a potential situation here that I have zero experience with.
I'm staying in some military housing right now, i.e. real houses but the whole street is NATO military.
Next door neighbors have 2 kids. One kid gets messed up playing in front yard. Neighbors know I've got medical training and Mom comes running next door.
2 Kids, big Brother is 3 and little Brother (the injured one) is 2.
Kids don't know me from Adam and I'm trying to calm the 2 year old down to get a good look at his injury.
Well, my probing no doubt caused a little pain, and the 2 year old doesn't know me and I was awoken from a deep nap (bad hair, 2100 shadow, etc.).
So the 2 year old hollars real loud, and the 3 year old kicks me in the nose as hard as he can (I'm bent over). He thought I was hurting his Brother. Cool in my book - seemed like the kid had good instincts.
Well, the Mom grabs the 3 year old by one arm and really yanks him aside. Like his neck cracked like a whip. And then she slaps him hard on the cheek and spanks him *really* hard on his butt...for kicking me.
You have to understand I had no reaction to the kick. The 2 year old had a busted bone and was wearing PJs and I was worried about a cpd fracture (limb at odd angle along a normally straight axis) so I was paying close attention to rolling up the PJs very very carefully (nothing on me to cut them away - again - woken up from nap and all my gear under my rack).
So Mom really smacked him hard. Like 3 fingers visible on the kid's cheek.
Only reason I'm asking this here is if it's no big deal I don't want to cause grief for the Ps of this kid due to a baseless accusation from someone who never has raised Kids. If I asked anyone I worked with they'd know who I'm talking about most likely. And the rumor mill can be a squeak, no?
Mom seems nice and very attentive to Kids. Could have been reaction because she was scared about 2 year old. That's my (totally uneducated) guess. Yanking/smacking the 3 year old seemed very extreme to me at the time, especially when the 3 year olds intentions were so good in my book.
So is this 'child abuse' and should I talk to someone official about it?
Feel free to ask more detailed questions if you need to for the sake of making a good call.
I've babysitted my Cousin's Son a fair deal when he was 1-2. Never saw anything like this (really soft smack on the butt to get attention is all).
Any opinions/advice gratefully accepted.
Mike/wulfie
From your account, it sounds like child abuse. The 3 yr old learned the violence (kicking you in the face) probably from his parents. Kids usually react to how they're treated. Usually kids will let their parents do the reacting and not react (with violence) on their own, especially against an adult.
Well, the Mom grabs the 3 year old by one arm and really yanks him aside. Like his neck cracked like a whip. And then she slaps him hard on the cheek and spanks him *really* hard on his butt...for kicking me.
Sorry but how will you feel if those kids end up in the morgue? Better safe than sorry. Report it to the proper authorities.
We're not talking a 'smack' on the butt to get the little one's attention. We're talking:
1) Yanking the kid so hard that his neck cracked like a whip.
2) Slaps the kid so hard on the cheek that an imprint of 3 fingers were visible afterwards.
3) Spanks really hard on his butt.
What's amazing to me is that most of you don't consider this child abuse. What will happen next time (if this parent continues this sort of behavior) when the little kid's brain hemorages from being shaken too often and hard? What about a skull fracture the next time the kid gets hit across the face a little harder or with an object?
Report it. The kids deserve an investigation to see if the parents are a threat.
A final thought. Imagine you are the father of those kids and do not realize that your wife is abusive like you described. I am sure you'd probably sue the neighbor who ignored such abuse 'because he didn't want to get involved.'
Your first instinct is right, you KNOW that was abuse, that is why you are asking about it.
Report it, the kids deserve better. If this was a one time thing, this will start a paper trail against future 'punishments.'
Regards,
wSNPR
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Yup, getting that boy removed from his parents' home and giving mom a criminal record for something that probably was out of the ordinary is always a good idea. God forbid you should ever be in a similar situation with one of your kids.
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Originally posted by Kieran
Yup, getting that boy removed from his parents' home and giving mom a criminal record for something that probably was out of the ordinary is always a good idea. God forbid you should ever be in a similar situation with one of your kids.
Kieran,
Your a teacher right?
Haven't you ever had students who were probably better off without their parents?
eskimo
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jump up, roundhouse kick the mother in the face and call it even
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while we're at it ....
what the hell happened to the swats one received in HS? Both the dean of boys and PE teachers used to pop us when we broke the rules or got outa line. Guess what, we didn't get out of line too often.
Though sometimes we justified that skipping first period was worth the three swats we'd get for it :)
bunch of wimps nowadays
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Originally posted by Eagler
while we're at it ....
what the hell happened to the swats one received in HS? Both the dean of boys and PE teachers used to pop us when we broke the rules or got outa line. Guess what, we didn't get out of line too often.
Though sometimes we justified that skipping first period was worth the three swats we'd get for it :)
bunch of wimps nowadays
Well toejame... was going to quip off something about your age or your region and then the memory hit of that bigass paddle in the principles office at junior high... :eek:
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Certainly the weakest (children) in our society should be protected from abuse and for the most part there is no one better suited for this job than parents.
I'm glad that parents have some legal leway in deciding what is best for their children. After all, parents are responsible for the actions of the children, or at least they should be. I believe that if parents were held more accountable for their children's actions then the world would probably be a better place to live.
It's good that people can find avenues to discuss various methods for discipline and seek advice for dealing with specific issues and problems without fear of reprisal. Maybe this is one of them.
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Originally posted by Kieran
Yup, getting that boy removed from his parents' home and giving mom a criminal record for something that probably was out of the ordinary is always a good idea. God forbid you should ever be in a similar situation with one of your kids.
If it were an isolated, one-time event, then I doubt the kids would be removed from their parents. I'm betting that this isn't the first time the kids have been beaten by their parents. Where did that 3 yr old learn to kick someone in the face? It was probably learned from his parents kicking him. Violence is learned.
Let's turn this situation around. How would you feel if it was YOUR 3 yr old son being:
1) Yanked so hard that his neck cracked like a whip. (possibilty of a broken neck, whiplash, or brain hemmorage)
and
2) Hit so hard on the face, an imprint of 3 fingers were left on his face afterwards. (possible fracture of the facial area of the skull)
and
3) Spanked really hard.
All this by a babysitter(adult) or some other adult you have entrusted the safety of your 3 yr old. Provided the kid survives physically, he learns to react with excessive violence first before verbally trying to settle an arguement.
I would really be surprised that anyone here would allow the above to happen to their own children.
Would you not agree that it is better for the kids to be seperated from their ABUSIVE parents before they end up brain damaged or dead? At the very minimum an investigation should be done regarding the kid's safety.
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Yup, I am a teacher, and I know sometimes kids are better off without their birth parents. Yet that isn't the point.
None of us were there but Wulf. He has given one small snapshot of what he saw, and that from his perspective. We already know there is a wide disparity in opinion about what constitutes beating and spanking. So, in this particular case he outlines what he perceived, and many are all set to jerk those kids out of the house. You know as well as I do welfare can do a number on that mother, whether she is guilty or not. Some of you have gone on to say what a horrible parent this mother is, and all you have to go on is heresay. That's dangerous, at least as dangerous as what the woman is accused of being.
If I swat the behind of my child in the grocery store, I stand a very good chance of having her at least temporarily removed from my home, and having a charming little folder with my name on it created and labeled "suspected child abuser". Some of you might even agree that I am, and would be ready to take my kids from me. I could talk myself blue in the face denying I habitually beat my children, because so many would be so quick to want to believe it. That's dangerous.
Once again today I have to say we are only getting one side of the story, and it would be interesting to hear the other perspective.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Well toejame... was going to quip off something about your age or your region and then the memory hit of that bigass paddle in the principles office at junior high... :eek:
So. Cal boy here and Coach B. had a paddle that he drilled little holes into... said it cut down on wind resistance. :D
Damn that hurt.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Yeah, like liberals are not spanked, and conservatives are, no wonder y'all are messed up! :D
What gives you the idea that i'm a "Liberal"? You think after 15 years in the Soviet Union i'd want ANYTHING to do with Socialism???
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Originally posted by midnight Target
So. Cal boy here and Coach B. had a paddle that he drilled little holes into... said it cut down on wind resistance. :D
Damn that hurt.
Oh yeah MT my coach had the same paddle. God that sucker hurt...(sigh) My wife spanks me now but it's just not the same.
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Hold on there Kieran.
I never said she was a child abuser.
I kept myself from making any judgement, because no matter how shocked I was I have zero experience when it comes to raising kids. My Ps said I was spanked a couple of times when there was potential danger - i.e. I was struggling to break free from a held hand in a parking lot, etc. I have no recollection of ever being spanked, or of my Ps screaming at me even once. For my Mom or Dad to imply that I let them down was crushing punishment for me at as early an age as I can remember.
Anyways - that's why I asked for some opinions from people who have raised/are raising kids. I wasn't going to do anything that could impact the Mom, Family, etc. based on my judgement alone in this case - because I have nothing to base my judgement on that applies to this situation.
To be honest my default response was to chalk it up to panic. But I asked for opinions to make sure I didn't leave a situation that would have been bad for the kids unaddressed.
Mike/wulfie
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Also, someone mentioned the 3 finger marks on the cheek.
Lots of full contact martial arts experience here - cheeks mark very very easy. Very easy to get a mark on your cheek that will be gone in 1 hour at most. Also, being a slap the chance of causing a facial bone fracture is nearly impossible (those bones are very strong because in caveman times a fractured sinus = death).
Just a 'human physiology FYI'.
Mike/wulfie
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No, Wulf, I am not directing any of that at you. I am pointing out the way many of the people on this board have responded is premature, and they surely don't appreciate the seriousness of the advice they are giving you.
It isn't just a simple thing to call welfare, they check it out, no big deal if you're wrong. You can get those kids taken away from that mother, and you want to be reasonably sure you are right before you go down that path.
"Think of the kids, you can't take a chance!" some will say. Yeah, until it is someone accusing YOU of being a child abuser, and YOUR kids get taken away. Hey, there certainly are times when you should contact welfare, no doubt about it, but reread this thread and see how many were yelling "Hang the witch!" based on nothing more than your words.
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I remember swats..
choice was either swats (someone hits you with a paddle)
or 3 day suspension from school.
not a hard choice...
Originally posted by Eagler
while we're at it ....
what the hell happened to the swats one received in HS? Both the dean of boys and PE teachers used to pop us when we broke the rules or got outa line. Guess what, we didn't get out of line too often.
Though sometimes we justified that skipping first period was worth the three swats we'd get for it :)
bunch of wimps nowadays
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Hey! My Dad gave me a few whoopin I deserved and look how I turned out!! Nicest guy ya ever want to meet. If ya cant get along with me it is your own fault. Im the nicest guy I know, bar none!!
A good spankin is good for a child. Puts things back into perspective for the young one.
:)