Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Scott E on August 14, 2002, 09:53:28 AM
-
just to see if ts usage increases to a level close to a normal good airplane.
it just does not get flown
-
lol.
-
please make the P51 immune to 20mm, i get shot down way too much
-
Ah puhleaase, like we don't have enough spits already!
:eek:
-
Oh, c'mon, Saw!
There's HALF as many as there should be! :D
-
Actually, for all the guffaws, not that bad of an idea....
-
They do unperk it from time to time in CT
-
You Rebel Scum!
-
Well at least he's branching out from the P-38 and 262.
J_A_B
-
Better yet, unperk all planes for 1 tour, then re-evaluate the perk costs.
ra
-
Perhaps a "coupon day" while we're at it :D
How's about just taking the 14 off the icon?
-
perk em all, let Pyro sort em out.
-
The perk planes would see a hell of a lot more usage minus the gangbang tags.
The price is right, fix the tags.
-
Heres an idea for those of you who whine every tour for the temps price to be lowered and the spit14 to be unperked. Go into one of the many H2H team rooms and go against the spit14 and temp horde. After you try that for a few hours ask yourself if you still think thats a good idea ;)
-
I like the perk tags and I think they're priced right. They're a goal, a "for laughs" ride, not something you're supposed to be able to take up every flight.
J_A_B
-
But here's my 2 cents. I'd love to fly the Spit 14 once in a while (I fly the Spit 1 mostly) but the "Come kill me for mondo perks!" label makes it totally prohibitive. Let them visually ID the plane mark like actual pilots did...
- Seagoon
-
Rediculous suggestions.
The Spit 14 is handy in that it guarantees every con will chase it down. You can drag every con at any field away so that your goon can get in unseen.
This has been discussed over, and over, with the same result.
If you can't afford it, don't fly it.
-
Thats a BS statement VOSS.
Many of us put in the time....weeks of play just to have enough perks for one flight.
-
Gee, Voss, the voice of reason.
Lemme get this right.
If you defend a base from hordes of vulchers in a Hurricane, and kill 1 plane every 3 minutes while you get vulched 3 times inbetween kills, you don't lose perk points. In fact, you gain alot over a 1 hour period. Maybe 20 or more kills. Over a few hours, 50, 75, points?
Say I hate that mindless gamey sim experience. And I can't get kills regular in lessor early war aircraft like say a 202, Hurricane, or even a P51-B, even with equal odds.
I simply can't TnB, don't want to either. Personally love E managment and setting up snap shots. I have to rely on speed and cannon that's in say a Dora. Maybe a P38.
So, using the current perk value point system,
Q?
If I take 1 hour to set up 5 BnZ kills from using dar to find inbound cons and successfully intercept them, ruining their mission or helping helping save country strat, if they were a average mix of MA planes, what would I get if i landed those kills no deaths? An average.
Q? How would this compare in points to the gamey vulchfest fight in a hurricane?
The perk system is a great idea, it just needs additional conciderations for people that don't play 150 hours a month, or want to be slaughtered in slow airplanes by 90% late war fighters.
-
If the perk system is to actually work as an incentive to fly less common, or less effective aircraft then the perk planes must be seen as a real bonus. Perk planes must be fun to fly.
What we have now works fine for most non-perk aircraft (La-5FN, La-7, C.202 and C.205 being exceptions), but it removes the perk system as an effective incentive to gather perk points, It works counter to this by making perk planes unenjoyable to fly. The perk icons and the perk price equal a kind of double jeopardy and its no fun to be gangbanged in an aircraft with slightly better performance that you spent reward points to fly. You can get gangbanged for free by flying to any sector with a massive red bar and no green bar.
Here is what I'd like to see in icon changes:
C.202 = C200
C.205 = C200
La-5FN = LAGG
La-7 = LAGG
F4U-4 = F4U
Spitfire Mk XIV = SPIT
Ta152H-1 = 190
Tempest Mk V = TYPH
Me262A-1 = 262
Ar234B = 234
What it comes down to is this:
Is the perk system meant to limit the usage of top end aircraft or is it meant to stigmatize top end aircraft?
If it is meant to limit the usage of top end aircraft simply to prevent them from swarming the arena then the perk price is all that is needed. The F4U-1C saga has demonstrated this perfectly.
If the perk system is meant to stigmatize the usage of top end aircraft it works wonderfully for this, but begs the question of why the aircraft and system were added.
-
One additional thing.
I find it easier to get a 1.5 K/D ratio in the Mosquito Mk VI than I do in the Spitfire Mk XIV. That is how much the perk tag impacts me in that aircraft.
-
Originally posted by brendo
Thats a BS statement VOSS.
Many of us put in the time....weeks of play just to have enough perks for one flight.
Then you are going about it wrong.
Creamo, what I said about being chased was, more or less, tongue in cheek. I like the Spit 14, and I use it every now and then. It is not a plane that I would like to fly during peak hours, but I have found it possible to earn one in less then four hours; it certainly doesn't take 150 hours to earn one. I'm no super-talent, so if I can do it... You, Creamo, should know better.
It seems to me that there a few dweebs (and dweebs they must be) that simply want a 'super-spit' at no cost. Dweebs don't deserve it, can't afford it, and if you can't afford it, then don't fly it.
-
Well this might be a little off topic but..
Who the hell painted the big bulls eye on the Tempest ?????
IT DIDN'T COME WITH A BULLS EYE :mad:
I want that addressed NOW !!!
Now continue with the Spit dweeb debate...
;)
P.S. Good post Karnak
-
I can see no good reason why I should have to treat every spit in the arena as if it's a Spit 14. Dealing with the 109's are bad enough.
I also don't think the perk ICONS present any special problem, and have the benefit of making your opponents fly like newbies as they try to kill you at all costs.
J_A_B
-
J_A_B,
Then the solution is to remove perk planes, other than the F4U-1C, Me262 and Ar234 (not that the 234 gets used anymore). For me it is far more irritating and frusterating to have my favorite WWII fighter in this game and yet never be able to actually enjoy it. I would far, far prefer that it had never been added. I don't give a damn about the price, they could double, triple or even charge ten times as much and without the icon I'd have fun with it. With the icon it isn't even fun when its free.
Personally, I don't like having to deal with 1944 aircraft, but I'm not going to try to get 1944 aircraft banned or rendered useless.
It so happens that some people like Ta152s, Spit XIVs, F4U-4s and Tempests. They can't actually enjoy them in AH, but I guess that's fine so long as you have your P-51D...
-
I agree about the Spit14.
1) Its perked too high
2) When someone uses one, everyone goes after him, and with any perk plane, you become a con magnet. IRL, other fighters would more likely to avoid a notably superior aircraft, we do the opposite in this game.
3) Its rare to see a true perk plane in the game for these reasons.
It seems a shame that HTC spent time developing aircraft and due to the perk system, nobody flys them.
I feel they should drop the number of perk points most piston fighters to about 20, remove the icon identifier that labels it as a special plane.
Dago
-
Tempest Mk V = TYPH
i didn't knew that :rolleyes:
-
"With the icon it isn't even fun when its free."
Okay, so the fact that it's perked isn't the real issue. Thought so :) Are LA7's P-51's, P-38's and N1K2's also "not fun" because they don't have some other identical-looking variant with inferior performance to confuse their opponents with? Don't you think your opponents at least deserve to know what they're up against if you're flying some uber hot-rod?
It seems as though you want to be able to take your Spit 14 and wade into a furball, clubbing people who think you're just another Mk 5 or 9.
I'd see nothing wrong with a new arena where every piston-engine plane is free, or a section of the current arena set up as such (sort of like Lazs early-war section applied to the perkplanes). In such an arena/area you could fly your Spit14 to your heart's content. But that isn't enough, is it.....you want to club baby seals.
J_A_B
-
Who was it that said "Perk the pilot, not the plane"? Damn old age making me forgetful.
I rather be able to spend perks on the rearm pad, to get an aileron or rudder fixed.
Now, I dunno about most of you fellas but I got around a 1000 Fighter perk points I rarely use. Only time I've ever spent em is when someone in the squad suggests some kinda outlandish Tempest raid, or Me262 sortie.
I usally fly non-perked planes as I really don't need 1/2 the enemy cons in the arena who see my perk ride start chasin' me across the map.
'Sides, if I wanna hunt baby seals I'll take a vacation to Alaska and do it on an Iceberg. I see no need to grab a "perk" plane and use it like a lead-filled baseball bat in the MA.
And just to add a little insult to injury, I'm quite sure I'd be better off kill/sortie wise in the un-perked La7, N1K2, or P-51D than in a Ta.152, F4u4 or Me262.
No question the "perk" system needs to be revamped.
-
Every aircraft is free in the TA. I hardly ever go in there, but that's somewhat of a good indication of what would be flown (discounting the people who are actually training on a certain airframe they intend on using in the MA.)
And I've suggested before about some system where there is a perk modifier based on pilot vs pilot rank.
-
Perk them all!
-
J_A_B,
No, that isn't it at all.
The fact is that it has a perk icon, even when it is free in the CT, and that summons people to kill it. It isn't rational, but it is what happens. The icon singles these aircraft out as different and special. Who doesn't want to kill special things. I know that when I see a rare aircraft, say, an F4F or a Hurri, I'm much more inclined to kill it so that I can have one of them on my score card. Drawing fire like this actually prevents me from bringing the aircraft's full potential to bear on my opponent.
As to not wanting to treat every Spitfire as a Spit XIV, well, boo bleeping hoo.
I cannot find any sympathy in me for that position.
I mostly fly an aircraft that is dead if it meets a semi competent pilot in a P-51D (most common fighter), La-7 (4th most common fighter), Typhoon (5th most common fighter), Fw190D-9 (7th most common fighter), P-38L (8th most common fighter), Bf109G-10 (10th most common fighter), P-51B, F4U-1, F4U-1D, La-5FN, Yak-9U, Bf109G-2, Bf109G-6, Fw190A-5 or Fw190A-8. If I don't hold the position advantage at the sart I lose against any pilot with any clue as to what they are doing in all of those. Because of how common those are I have to treat every dot (yes dot) as automatic death if it is above me.
How many of those are aircraft that I'd have to deal with in my prefered 1943 environment? Bf109G-2, Bf109G-6, Fw190A-5. All among the most manageable of the lot.
So your complaining that you'd have to actually treat the Spitfires you fought with respect as they might actually be contemporaries of your P-51D (although 19 times out of 20 they would not be) fails to move me in any way.
Why do you have any more of a right with your $15 to change how I play than I do to change how you play with my $15? You choose to use a fighter that is, frankly, just as good as the Spitfire Mk XIV or F4U-4, yet you don't suffer the penalties that pilots of those aircraft do. You aren't forced to simultaneously fight all enemy fighters in icon range in a fighter that isn't fast enough to run from its most common adversaries.
-
The real issue here is the tag.
I really think all planes should have "base" tags.
Just make the paint schemes a bit different.
If I dive on a spit in my Jug, and find out that it's a Spit XIV halfway into it, I'd probly take my one shot that I could get and continue the dive, comfortable in the fact that I can still get away.
However, if I see a Spit XIV tag from 5 miles away, I will avoid it at all costs, or stack the deck so supremely in my favor (through alititude and speed management, or call a buncha friends) to make it happen.
Now there are two extremes people are arguing over. Either have it all tagged, or have it all base tagged. I'm going to take my suggestion a little bit further:
How about this- Base tags stay in effect until, say, D1.0. After that, the perk flag goes up, and it STAYS up to *me*. Anyone else who gets within D1.0 of the plane could see it as well.
What do y'all think of that?
(edited to remove shpellun errs and a moot point. Have a nice day :) )
-
"You choose to use a fighter that is, frankly, just as good as the Spitfire Mk XIV or F4U-4"
In WW2, yes. In the AH MA? Not by a long shot. And you know it. There IS more to fighting than sea-level speed. More to running too, than just pointing the nose down and going for the deck.
Then you mention the frustration of flying a plane, that by your own admission, would be dogmeat even its own time period. I really don't see how that is relevant to the discussion and really the entire paragraph made little sense. Even if you ARE flying a deathtrap, you still know what you're up against.
Again, I ask...what would be wrong with a new MA with nothing but jets perked, or a section of the current MA with such a "free area"?
"The icon singles these aircraft out as different and special. Who doesn't want to kill special things. "
Want to know something?? They're singling you out because you're the biggest threat! All you want to do is deprive your opponents of basic SA (the threat assessment part).
I guess I have the opposite viewpoint as you do...I wish every single airplane had a unique ICON tag.
J_A_B
-
Well, here's my two cents on this.........(cringing already)
I would agree that the current system regarding tagging perk planes is probably not perfect. However I don't see removing them. I have seen the arguement that we should all just use the markings on the planes to ID the planes. That would be great if we could see as well on our computer screens as we can in real life with regard to markings, but we can't so that seems a bit impractical. Add to that the disparity of sytems with regard to image quality and especially monitor size. It seems a bit unfair to penalize somebody who can't or won't put out the cash for a spanking new 21" or bigger monitor. I know I can't justify the added cost for that purpose. There is also the issue of planning the fight. I really need to know what kind of plane I'm dealing with way before I'm within 500 yards of him (the distance at which I can discern markings well enough to tell the version of the plane). I'm not automatically dead if a particular plane shows up high to me, but I do need to do a little planning ahead of time to get set up to kill or evade it. Perked rides generally need to have a significantly different plan than unperked rides of the same model.
As far as the problem with folks chasing the perk planes.......what do you expect? I mean if they could come up with some other system that allowed one to ID a planetype other than tagging it then you will still be ID'd and singled out. Your already at an advantage by flying a perk plane, why would you feel the need to be at a bigger advantage by not allowing others to see that your in a perk plane until it's too late? It seems to me that being targeted to a certain extent is just part of flying a perked ride. I mean it's human nature to attempt to "kill" the big bad perked ride. I like to do it. No I'm generally not part of the mindless train chasing the lone perked ride because I like landing my kills. However given a choice between attacking a perked ride or an unperked ride I will generally go after the perked ride. I like the challenge. I don't think that perked rides are meant to be unassailable. Nor will they turn a mediocre pilot into the king of all sim pilots. I just think that they have an advantage (or advantages) over other planes that are significant enough to limit the numbers of those planes in order to maintain balanced gameplay. Besides on the most common advantages of the perked rides is speed. In fact, I can't think of a high priced perked ride that doesn't hold a signifcant speed advantage over most planes at certain altitudes. Can a higher plane catch you? Sure they can, so look around for the high dots and bug out if you need to. That added stress is part of the fun for me.
Personally I don't think that there is a usage problem. I see plenty of Spit14s in the arena, along with the other perked rides. No the skies are not filled with perked rides, but that's kinda the point of the perk system. In fact I would guess that the reason the Spit14 isn't more common is the fact that it doesnt turn like most folks expected it too. It seems to be more of a BNZ ride than a turner and used in that capacity it's nasty and very survivable. Sure the Spit14 gets a lot of attention, but so do other Spits. Think about what would happen if they introduced (hypothetical here to make a point) a perked Nik. I mean there are several players who target Niks and Spits just because they have some "thing" against Niks and Spits. Why wouldn't a PERKED spit get LOTS of attention. Besides, alot of Spit flyers seem to consider their planes disposable. That's fine if that's what you want to do, but if you run out and fly a Spit14 like that then don't expect the lack of a tag to keep you alive. Like any other plane you have to fly using the advantages that the plane your in offers in relation to the opposing plane.
Anyway I think the current system is as good as it gets for now. I feel we need the tags simply because there is no other way to ID planes out there. I also think that its only fair that if your gonna fly a perked plane that the opposing flyer at least know of your advantage.
The cost of the planes.....well ya got me on that one. They seem to adjust the cost according to usage to a certain extent. As long as that continues then it's fine by me.
Sorry for the length of the message. Hopefully I didn't offend anyone too much, this wasn't intended to be a flame...just an opinion.
Zaphod
-
J_A_B,
Try flying the Spit XIV for a tour (or at least for a few days). I've flown the Spit XIV and I've flown the P-51D in AH. The P-51D is every bit as good. Its different, but just as good.
Also, where did I say my ride would be dogmeat in its proper enviroment? I said that there were three aircraft that would defeat it if flown at all properly, but I also said those three were the most managable. P-51Ds, F4Us, Typhoons and La-7s are aircraft it would never have fought and in AH are the biggest threats. Spitfires and N1K2s are minor annoyances in comparison.
Zaphod,
I think you mistook the point of an awful lot of this. Also, where is it that you see perk planes. The only perk planes I saw last Tour were the perk planes I was sitting in.
Screw it. It doesn't matter. I'm burnt out over this and the bomber subject. I just don't care anymore. Everything is perfect.
-
According to your score, Karnak, you don't fly enough period.
Tonight I landed an 8 kill sortie in the Spit 14, and before that managed a 5 kill sortie, before a spray-and-pray P-38 smoked my engine. Rude was kind enough to tie up the VERY desperate Spit after me while I ditched/augered. My K/D is currently 8:1 in the 14, which is a little lower then I try to get in the P51D (for instance), but higher then I usually achieve (average about 7.9:1 in Pony these last few camps). Actually, if not for a midair on debris it would be 12:1. The Spit 14 IS uber, in that it can wade into a heavy con area and still get out, which I don't even try in the pony.
However, all that aside, I do not think that the game should be modified to suit a few guys that seldom fly and want to fly a 'favorite' ride. There are guys in here that could make that Spit 14 deliver some awesome streaks, and having it cost a few perks keeps all that in balance. Sure, we have a few 'experten' that would like to see the icon removed, and probably for the same reason some of us hide panzers behind ridges and shell other GV's and spawning A/C, and it goes with the recent changes in Victory announcements. Being anonymous/generic has its advantages, but why not go a step further and argue for the removal of ALL icons? Well, guess who would have the advantage then? Answer: the guys that have awesome systems and know how to use these planes anyway.
As an aside, I watched six guys auger tonight (no kill awarded to me) including two P-38's and an Me-262. Why? They wanted that Spit 14 really, really bad! :D
-
Voss,
Oh, I agree with you that the Spitfire XIV must be perked. It would ruin the MA otherwise.
I just strongly believe that for the vast majority of players, who like me are aren't terribly good and haven't got gobs of time to play, the perk icons make the prop perks completely frusterating and pointless.
I honestly find it easier to get a decent (for me) K/D with the Mosquito than I do with the Spit XIV. I don't think I'm at all alone in this.
The perk icons keep the uber planes in the hands of the few great sticks in the game, and that is too bad as there are many regular Joes who would love a shot at playing with them.
-
The fewer perk planes I see in the current arena the better and that includes the fourteen. I think that the icons should also be bright pink for perk rides so that they are eisier to see.
and creamo.. I don't think a hurri II survives real well in the arena. I don't think you get many perks for getting killed and... why should someone get rewarded for sneaking up on an afk player no matter how long it took to find said afk player?
lazs
-
So your complaining that you'd have to actually treat the Spitfires you fought with respect as they might actually be contemporaries of your P-51D (although 19 times out of 20 they would not be) fails to move me in any way.
*referee's whistle blows and he throws out the yellow flag*
BBS Foul, Illegal & Illogical Interpretation of History
15 yards, a case of beer to the FDB Con Beer fund, and restate the post ;)
Sorry, but the Spitfire contemporary of the P-51D is as I have stated many times before was the Spitfire IX, the Spit XIV was a minor sideshow compared to the IX usage in the late stages of the war. Yes we have a "hybrid" model spit, but its definitely a 1944 model or later.
Karnak, nothing personal but I have to agree with Voss on this one. After the last Spit XIV thread, I took it up for a couple of sorties (2) and did quite well in it. 4 kills (one doesn't show up in the score as I disco'd about 30 seconds later) and 3 assists, without dying. During the sortie I flew into a high threat area, and was jumped by a mixture of enemies plane types with superior E something like 7 times. And each time I was able to counter and either get a kill or escape. Its a real beast of a plane. True it takes a different flying style too succeed in, not your "typical" type of Spit, but definitely a killer.
-
Perk planes aren't that special anyways, why the big hoopla?! I agree 100% with Zaphod. I chew up all of the Hogs and the two perked ones I shoot down when I come across them.
Karaya2
-
Because Laz, I think you get a lot of perk points (relative) for killing something in a hurricane, you lose NONE getting killed 3 times in between those kills while desperately defending a vulched field. (I think anyways. Never did read a strat guide on the pot that was web based. That’s where I do my research on such important issues, AH included.) Seems right though. Thought that's what I said.
Anyway, I’m confused at your last point, I’ll still guess what your getting at.
I don’t think I should get more points for killing people afk, I should get 10 solid points, landed or not, for every whine I have received over the years. You can’t usually get the whine if they are taking a growler or re-freshening their spring water. It’s all timing though I guess. I’d have more than 20 perks if that were the case.
So, just what were you getting at actually?
I’d hate to see a MA full of perk planes too, but I rarely EVER see them, and only can fly the F4C or a occasional Ta152 myself. Because of that, I think something is skewed in the perk system, hense my initial reply.
Unless your eluding to, you can build tons of points if you’re a early war BnZ plane driving type of player?
OK, as I will agree with you, an MA area where early war planes can carry on a plane/era specific “fair” fight of sorts would be a nice addition, I don’t subscribe to the notion using a Dora to it’s strengths, is somehow a cliché, skill less form of playing in the MA, and the early war TnB crowd is a roughneck rogue bunch of squeak beating, bloodshot eyed acm aces. Lol, come on.
------
-
Originally posted by Karnak
J_A_B,
Zaphod,
I think you mistook the point of an awful lot of this. Also, where is it that you see perk planes. The only perk planes I saw last Tour were the perk planes I was sitting in.
Screw it. It doesn't matter. I'm burnt out over this and the bomber subject. I just don't care anymore. Everything is perfect.
Actually I see them quite regularly, especially the Temp. and Spit14. The 262 and 152 are only slightly less seen. Again, I'm not saying that I see large masses of them or even one of them every flight. I do see one or more of them 1 out of every 3 flights on average. However I think that the relatively low numbers of perk rides flying as compared to non-perked rides is the whole point of perking those planes.
By the way, it is not only merely possible that I mistook the point but actually highly likely :)
Zaphod the Clueless
-
I can understand the frustration they feel personally.
if your favourite aircraft happens to be the spitfire there would be a strong desire to fly the Spitfire.XIV, even though this aircraft was in service at the same time as the P51Dand the FW190D9 .we have had the P51d and 190d9 non perked since their introduction.So if perking planes is to be set by, among other things, usage or rather over-usage,why has the spit14 been kept perked? Im surprised its still so expensive.Ive only seen 1 or 2 in at least 2 tours.
The way i see it we have one of the best fighters of the war for free if you favour the Luftwaffe or the USAAF but if you favour raf planes you had better be damn good at staying alive because your best planes are 60 perks each and you cant keep losing them for too long even though they saw as much action as any other aircraft in AH of the same period.
Its why fly LW and never try the spit14 anymore :)
-
One of the reasons for the perk system we seem to be missing is the desire to keep the late war fighters rare. I've read HT saying that the perk point system is also designed to try to keep a mid-war atmosphere to the game, otherwise there would be little or no reason to perk the TA152 at all [anyone seriously want to argue its a better ride than the LA7???]
Still, I say change the cammo on he SPIT XIV to some distinctive variant (I believe there was an all light blue model for instance) and then remove the tag. I'll freely admit it, whenever I see a Spit14 icon its like a red flag to a bull. It's far better to let a guy know what kind of plane he's fighting when he can see it [fwiw I'd love to see the tags only identify the country - maybe we can get an MA2 with no tags some day?]
- Seagoon
-
Sorry, but the Spitfire contemporary of the P-51D is as I have stated many times before was the Spitfire IX, the Spit XIV was a minor sideshow compared to the IX usage in the late stages of the war. Yes we have a "hybrid" model spit, but its definitely a 1944 model or later.
If it's an early 1944 model, it's 15 - 20mph too slow below 10,000ft, and needs to be fixed.
If it's a mid 1944 onwards Spit IX, it's about 30 - 40mph too slow at low alt, and needs to be fixed.
The AH Spit IX is a mid 1942 model, with incorrect armament options. It's not a 1944 model.
-
Vermillion,
Pray tell, it what way is the AH Spitfire Mk IX a 1944 fighter?
It isn't. Its a bloody 1942 fighter with the option for the .50s that it shouldn't have. Do the .50s really change it that much? Hell no. It is performance that counts, and it performs like a July, 1942 Spitfire Mk IX.
I agree that the P-51D was much more important to the Allies than was the Spitfire Mk XIV, to suggest otherwise would be silly. However, the Spitfire Mk XIV was also, design wise, the contempary of the P-51D, and that is what I am refering too. The 1943 Spitfire LF.Mk IX wasn't even a contempary of the P-51D, let alone the 1942 Spitfire F.Mk IX. You are distorting things even more drastically than I am by making that claim.
Hazed,
Thing is, the Spitfire in general is not my favorite WWII fighter. J_A_B's favorite fighter is the P-51D, not just any P-51. Likewise my favorite fighter is the Spitfire F.Mk XIVc, not just any Spitfire.
Seagoon,
In what way are we losing sight of that? Most of us (other than Fester) are not asking for the Spitfire Mk XIV to be unperked. A substantial number of us feel that the perk icons render the perk system moot and useless. My favorite fighter is in the game, yet everytime I use it I get frusterated, angry and contemplate canceling my account. That surely isn't the intended purpose of the perk system. What kind of "reward" system just makes people frusterated and angry?
The F4U-1C demostrated quite well that the perk price alone is enough to control usage. The perk icons have no purpose other than taking away any reason to use a fighter that doesn't outperform the most common free fighters.
-
I agree wholeheartedly with Karnak.
I will not fly high perk rides (except an occasional 262) simply because they are not fun. The perk cost penalizes the pilot enough, and if it doesn't, the perk cost should be raised until it does. I should not have to fly so conservatively that the plane is not fun to fly or risk the wrath of every enemy pilot within 6k of my plane. I could have much more fun and survive much longer in a nonperked, earlier variant of the same plane. As it stands, the benefits do not outweigh the costs.
Some might say that, if the perk tags are removed, those planes will fill the skies and dominate the MA. Well, simply up the perk cost until they don't. That will keep them rare and make them fun to fly.
Being the recipient of a gangbang or flying ultra-conservatively is just not fun.
(I refuse to fly the spit btw, since it's a dweeb ride) ;)
-
I agree with Karnak 100% on this one (like y'all care what I think :)).
We've got perked planes that any halfway decent LA-7 pilot can kill or at least get away from with ease.
The TA-152 is particular is a crappy deal, I fly it sometimes anyway though because I've got a ton of perk points and it stays up in the sky longer than any other german plane.
The Spit14 is a good plane. No, it is a great plane. If you fly it the way you'd fly a P-51D or a 190D9, you'll have success in it. You won't have a whole lot of fun, and you'll probably get bounced and die unless you are four or five times more cautious, but you'll have some success.
Or, you can up an LA-7, furball, and then run away with impunity when things start looking bad.
If you want perk-plane performance without the 'gangbang' tag... well, I'm pretty sure everyone here knows what plane to fly.
-
In the handfull of fights I've been in this camp (and with the Spit XIV) I've gone in with E, BnZ'd until I was out of ammo, and then returned to base. Yes, I've evaded planes homing in on the icon. Only bad luck has brought me down (midair debris, one-ping spray-and-pray, and one legitimate death that I could have easily avoided).
If a talentless dweeb like me can do it... :eek:
-
I understand your position Voss, and I did the same thing last tour when the topic was raised. I hadn't really flown the Spit 14, so I used it on two or three sorties. I remember one was around 4 kills (and that one was me and another guy vs 4 enemy in a low level furball- I survived by dumb luck) and another was 7 or 8 kills (that one I mostly BnZ'ed, and at one point I had another Spit, an LA7, and a TBM (yea, a TBM lol) chasing me around. I got lucky and made the LA7 blow all his speed, then I ran away from all 3 of them.
Thing is- you can do the same thing in the LA7 for free. Thats why I think the Spit14 gets a raw deal with the perk cost AND the icon saying "Hey, I'm a perk plane!".
-
In all honesty, I always considered a La7 a perk plane. Not by price, but by ENY. Its icon was just as inviting as any of the perk icons. You earn a lot of perkies when you shoot one down, almost as much as shooting down some of the perked crowd.
It is free and I like it. Nothing better than some dweeb taking off in La7 from a capped field. I always treated La7s and Spit XIV as the same threat level.
Why do you have to pay for Spit XIV tho - is beyond me ;).
-
Originally posted by Hristo
Why do you have to pay for Spit XIV tho - is beyond me ;).
Because, it's worth it.
I like the La7, too. It's faster on the deck, and for field defense a lightly fueled La7 is hard to beat. But, I think the gunnery is sloppy in the La7. The Spit XIV is a much more stable gun platform.
Yeah, having to choose between an La7 and a Niki (as to which to kill first), I always kill the La7. If, there were a Spit XIV around, it would have top billing.
-
Karnak, if you don't think the .50 MG's make a difference, well.... I would suggest that you have been debating Luftwobbles so long, they're starting too rub off on you ;)
Urchin. Go shave your back !! :p Just kidding bud. Good to see you back on the BBS, and I hope your neck is better. If not, I'll help you setup Nimitz at the next con ;)
Perk Icons. Learn to live with them and accept them. They're not going away any time soon. And stop beating this stinking dead horse every two weeks.
-
creamo... I don't really want to see any of the perked rides in the current arena. The fact that they are rare is allmost as good but not quite.
as to why a dora or 51 or 14 shouldn't get as many perks as a hurri... well... I think the former planes have the ability to fly risk free in the arena if they are patient enough. There should be some price for flying a risk free plane tho. I think the boredom is price enough but I certainly don't want to encourage such behaviour by giving it a reward in "perks"... I don't even want to legitimize it.
In the case of the hurri... he will die every single time if he has no talent. he will get nothing out of it but a crappy K/D. he has to kill and avoid being killed in a very busy place. Not an easy trick. While he has more targets... he has way more risk and is less likely to land his kills (I think hurris taste like chicken).
I think the balance between risk and kills is rewarded about right now.
lazs
-
Ok, here's an idea. Instead of unperking the spitXIV maybe HTC could model a Spit with the performance between the SpitIX and the SpitXIV.
So....how about a clipped wing Spit IX LF.:) To save confusion with the spitIX we have already have it could be a SpitXVI (merlin built under license by packard). A bubble canopy, clipped wing Spit XVI would be a great candidate.:)
-
Vermillion,
The .50s mean jack all.
The Spitfire is functionally armed with two 20mm cannon. Once those are out of ammo the Spit is pretty much harmless and its time to RTB.
The performance that a true 1944 Merlin Spitfire had is far, far more significant that any armament change could possible be. Two 20mm cannon are plenty leathal against fighters, adding more doesn't really affect the Spit's leathality. Making the Spit faster and better climbing gives it a far better chance of getting its guns on you.
If you think two .50s instead of four .303s makes as much, or more, of a difference than does the performance boost of a Merlin 66 you're deluding yourself.
FWIW, I fly the Spit (IX or XIV) with two 20mm and four .303s. I have used the two 20mm and two .50 cal package, but noticed no significant change in firepower. I never managed to kill anything with the two .50s, but I have killed a Typhoon with the four .303s.
-
If you think two .50s instead of four .303s makes as much, or more, of a difference than does the performance boost of a Merlin 66 you're deluding yourself.
Exactly. If your plane is armed with 2 Hispanos, would anyone be dumb enough to give up 20mph and 1000ft/min climb to add a couple of 50 cals?
-
I never said anything about giving up performance for a set of .50's. Thats your own words, not mine thank you.
I said that the x2 .50's equates to more effective firepower than the x4 .303's, which I can and will prove it you wish to go there.
And I stated from the start that the Spit IX in AH is a "hybrid". But don't deny the fact that .50's were not added to the Spit till 1944. A simple fact. And I stated the simple fact that the Spit IX was the most common Spitfire in use from 1944 to the end of the war, which makes it the most representative Spitfire of the period, not the Spit XIV. Again a simple fact.
Don't complain at me about which engine the IX has, complain to Pyro, he's the only one that can change it. Its a whole different issue than the XIV and its perkiness
What I'm against is this constant tired whine to either unperk the Spit XIV or take away its perk tag. Its a great plane and deserve both.
-
why do people insist spitfire XIV was not the contempary of the p51D and dora ????
spit14 first unit to receive them was 610th squadron in JANUARY 1944
p51d was introduced in "early 1944"(cant find specific date??)
FW190D9 was introduced in SEPTEMBER 1944 with JG54
how are these not contemporaries? yes the enemy were more likely to meet a spit 9 than a spit 14 but thats not the point in MA is it? you can meet la7s in p51s or me262s in a 202!!. what the hell has the war got to do with those matchups?
seems to me people use statements like 'the most common type' when it suits them.
the simple fact of the matter is if you want to fly a 1944 LW plane you have the dora or the 109g10 for free
if you want to fly USAAF 1944 planes you have the P51d or F4Ud or P47d30(?) for free
if you want to fly best Russian plane theres an LA7 free
if you want to fly the best RAF fighter in 1944 tough luck it will cost you at least 60 perks.
The way i see it if the SPIT14 is so good then it SHOULD be a ride of choice not penalised for it.
Like you said vermillion and others if you 'fly it like a P51d or dora' you will have success in it. If you try to use it like the spit9 you will die pretty quick.so whats the differnce between it and doras/p51d's.
-
And I stated from the start that the Spit IX in AH is a "hybrid".
What you said was:
Yes we have a "hybrid" model spit, but its definitely a 1944 model or later.
Pyro has stated the Spit IX is an F IX with Merlin 61. That's definately not a 1944 model.
-
Nashwan, THAT is what makes it a hybrid. 1944 guns with the 1942 engine. How much of that do you not understand?
-
Vermillion,
The difference in firepower between four .303s and two .50s is slight. Yes, the two .50s are better, but so lightly as to be not noticible in anything other than a controled test.
Even then, the best you could assume is that it is a 1943 Spitfire IX, as the .50 armed Spits first appeared in 1943. There is certainly no justification for implying that the AH Spitfire Mk IX is more modern than the P-51D and Fw190D-9.
The fact of the matter is that there were infinitely more Spitfires powered by Griffon 65s in 1944 than there were Spitfires powered by Merlin 61s as all the Spitfire F.Mk IXs had been retired.
As to the perk icons. I don't limit my desire to see the perk icons removed to the Spitfire XIV. I think that all perk icons should be removed if at all possible. I think the icons should look like this:
Ar234B = 234
C.202 = C200
C.205 = C200
F4F-4 = F4F
FM2 = F4F
F4U-4 = F4U
La-5FN = LAGG
La-7 = LAGG
Me262A = 262
Spitfire Mk XIV = SPIT
Ta152H-1 = 190
Tempest MK V = TYPH
Hazed,
I seem to recall that the P-51D entered service in May, 1944.
-
Nashwan, THAT is what makes it a hybrid. 1944 guns with the 1942 engine. How much of that do you not understand?
I understood the hybrid part, it's the "definately a 1944 model or later" bit that I disagreed with.
The fact of the matter is that there were infinitely more Spitfires powered by Griffon 65s in 1944 than there were Spitfires powered by Merlin 61s as all the Spitfire F.Mk IXs had been retired.
In fact, there were 3 times as many Spit XIVs as Merlin 61 IX's built in total, making the Spit XIV more representative, not less.
Fact is, the RAF used 150 octane fuel in 1944, because they knew the Merlin 66 Spit IX was no longer fast enough. At low level, the Spit XIV is far closer in performance to the 150 octane IX than the AH Spit IX is.
A representitive Spit from 1944 should do 350 - 360 mph on the deck, not the 320mph the AH Spit IX does.