Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: DingHao2 on August 10, 2001, 04:24:00 PM
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NOTE: HEAVY bomber, not medium or light.
Options:
He-177
Do-217
Ju-188
(feel free to add any other HEAVY bombers at will!!)
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Never mind, to harsh and I'm agry. Shouldn't post when angry.
[ 08-10-2001: Message edited by: Karnak ]
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Let me guess what Karnak is thinking.... :)
I sympathize.
Don't worry though, Karnak, it has to even out eventually. Sooner or later ALL the German planes will be modeled. ;)
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A British medium would be nice!
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So you can't even read in States. Let me give you a helping hand:
G E R M A N S N E E D A H E A V Y B O M B E R
Read it VERY slow and think about it. Germany was that Axis country in WW2. Heavy is something with bigger bomb load than in Ju-88; something like 4000-6000 kg.
Now if you want HTC to add some another plane in AH please start your own topic and don't try to hijack this one. You got a topic where ppl asked a Japanese bomber but AFAIR no'one went there to ask He-177.
Why is it that you need to toejam on every topic where someone asks a heavy bomber like He-177 ?
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Originally posted by funkedup:
A British medium would be nice!
A wellington? or a Whitley?...maybe a hampdem... ;)
was a good joke funked. RAF needs a Mosquito or/and a Beaufighter. We LW guys miss the Me110s and (PLEASE!!!!!!!! :)) Me410s.
But you wont tell me that the german bombers are well represented in AH.
I dont say is an overriding need (frankly I'd get five times a Me410 before a He177) but well, a german heavy would be quite welcome...I think :)
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Do217 would by my vote.
It is only fair when it comes to an Axis vs Allied arena. You can argue history and real life production numbers all you want, but when it comes to play balancing an Axis vs Allied historical arena (not a scenario, but a 24/7 arena) the Axis and Allies should have a comparable force. The need for a heavy bomber is quite clear.
Hans.
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The Germans didn't HAVE a heavy bomber, at least not in sufficient numbers that would justify an implementation in Aces High. The HE177 was the worst piece of crap due OKL stupid request of dive-bomb capability, the thing looked nice on the drawing pad, but killed problably more crewmembers in flying accidents then combatmissions. The Dornier 217, well,as as far as i have heard (and i may be wrong) was the prefered travelmaschine for Gernerals and Parti Hot-shots. And by the time beeing the Ju188 was operational, all the remaining bomberpilots had been transfered to fighterunits, 'cause thats where every single man was needed.
So i dont realy understand all the hysteria.
Unless you know something that i don't know.
In this case i would appreciate futher information...
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Too funny Staga.
Guess you have forgotten how other threads get hijacked when asking for aircraft for the other nations, eh?
Pot and kettle, I think.
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You guys don't need a 'heavy' bomber... just send over more JU88's!
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Need German heavy bombers in the HA? You do realize that HA stands for "Historical Arena"?
AKDejaVu
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What HA ?
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BTW DjV do YOU realize He-177 bombed London, it saw action in East-front as bomber and tank-killer, transported troops, food and gears, sinked and damaged couple battle-ships and several destroyers and cargo-vessels?
Do you actually know anything about He-177 ?
If not maybe you should search some info about it before typeing comments like that.
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I agree. The Germans need a bomber that is superior to the Lancaster just as they need fighters that are superior to the Spitfire F.IX and Typhoon IB.
An He177 in AH wouldn't have any of the mechanical short commings. It would climb faster and fly faster than the Lanc, be better armed and only carry 1000lbs less in bombs.
By all means, complete the sweep and give the Germans all of the cards.
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PERK THE HURRI!!!!
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Do you actually know anything about He-177 ?
If not maybe you should search some info about it before typeing comments like that.
Stopped by that web page too staga. Couldn't help but notice how easy it was to list all that plane's accomplishment.
I do like the way that "it was used" and "it was hardly used" can be substituted when the argument suits you.
AKDejaVu
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"I do like the way that "it was used" and "it was hardly used" can be substituted when the argument suits you."
Which is why actual production and deployment for use should be the final measuring stick. Not how many (prototypes are not considered "produced and deployed" aircraft), how many planes did it shoot down or if it saw action.
IMO
Westy
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Agree, Westy.
Deployed operationally is my personal test.
A real squadron of at least a dozen, staffed with trained combat-ready pilots, backed up by a full Maintenance staff, with Admin to run it and plan the missions.
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Originally posted by Staga:
What HA ?
The one in WWIIOnline.....
Ohh gawd, I crack myself up.....stop it, my sides are hurting now....plleeassse, i'm killin' me....
Cobra
Boy, I really should cut down on the caffiene :)
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Karnak if HTC keeps "Status Quo" would you be happy then?
Brits have a bomber with twice the load of Ju-88 and better armament.
btw:
He-177; service delivery (A-1) March 1942, (A-5) February 1943.
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He 177 would be a good addition as a heavy bomber, in the perfectly reliable world of AH.
But one of those late-war Japanese mediums needs to come first! :)
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The Germans kinda needed a heavy bomber during the war also. The US needed good long range fighters in January of 1942. The Japanese needed nukes. Problem is that despite these needs, the specified parties didn't really have em.
Hooligan
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The 262 was a bomber, no? ;)
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Originally posted by Karnak:
<snip> By all means, complete the sweep and give the Germans all of the cards.
OH BABY! SWOTL in 3dFx !!!! :cool:
Lemme see, the planes we lufters really, really need are;
- He 162
- He 163
- Me 110
- Me 410
- Ju 87G
- Ho 229 Flying Wing!!
- Do 335
- Me 262A-1a/U4 Pulkzerstörer (Mauser MK 214A 50mm Cannon equipped)
- Ju 287 See pic (http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/images/ju287-1.jpg)
- Me 264 See pic (http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/images/lrg0067.jpg)
Yep, I'm thinkin' the planeset would then be complete and on parity with the "allies" :D
<G,D,R!!!!>
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Homer(shaking fist in air): YOU'D BETTER RUN, EGG!!!
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Nevermind, I'm going to toejam on some Spit and Tu-2 topics.
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Damn Hooligan trhat is an arrogant and ignorant post.
There were over 1000 He177 made. They took part in anti shipping operations, the 1944 Blitz, they participated on the east front, they saw all manner of service.
No they didnt see use like the US or British Bombers did, but IT WAS A REAL LW HEAVY BOMBER that was built and used in good numbers.
As for its inclusion in AH, thats up to HTC. I dont fly bombers much at all so I dont really care, but this mindless attack by you and others is simply unnecesary.
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Grun its only lack of knowledge and education.
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From Gustin's military aircraft database:
The He 177 was the only series built German heavy bomber of WWII, and a dismal failure.... 1094 built, but most were never used in combat.
Okay Grunherz I stand corrected.
My post should have said that the Germans needed a heavy bomber that was not a dismal failure.
Hooligan
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Originally posted by juzz:
Homer(shaking fist in air): YOU'D BETTER RUN, EGG!!!
Hey! I didn't even mention that we Lufters really, really need the Bf 109T which was the navalized version of the 109 designed to go on the Graf Zepplin!!!!!
And tho we without a doubt need the Graf Zepplin, we definately and positively need the Bismark and Tirpitz.
After ALL those are added,[/i] then I think the Brits should possibly git the Swordfish and maybe the P-39 or P-40. Although those two additions might un-balance the axis vs. allies planeset.
On reflection it most likey would be best for equality of the arena if the Allies only get the Brewster Buffalo this is only to insure fairness and parity, AND ONLY AFTER we Lufters get the planes and ships I've listed above 'cuz we really, really need 'em.
(As you prolly know the Graf Zepplin was sunk by those dirty stinkin' under-handed limeys before she could make her maiden voyage) :mad: :D
(did I stir up the sh*t pot enuff yet?)
OH MY!™
<S>
Milenko
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GRÜNHERZ u are wrong. Despite they build 1000 of them, it never went beyound Comando-raid or Special Operation toejam. The number only tells how many of them where build and not that 7/10 of them droped out of the skys due mechanical and the famous " twin-engineproblem"....
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Just an aside-
I can't find a single reference to the 177 ever being used in numbers larger than 35 or so at a time, and in those cases many of them returned enroute for one reason or another. Not that it matters much, that isn't the real issue.
The real issue is clear to me; balance. There are those that think the game is unbalanced due to the Allies advantage in heavy bombers (which we all know they did indeed possess). This neglects the technological edge possessed in the LW fighters represented in AH (which we all also know is historical). The analogy is simple- you have the classic boxer/brawler matchup.
Then one must also consider the neglect of the other barely (or not at all) represented countries of AH. There are many more viable Axis aircraft out there that are not German, a fact seemingly overlooked. What balance do we talk of now? Country representation or gameplay attributes?
Do we set out 10 categories associated with AH then try to balance both Axis and Allies in every category? Is that possible? Is it desirable? It isn't historical, that is for sure.
What we wind up with is people arguing for ahistorical additions based on historical reasons- and that goes for both sides. The latest aircraft's contribution to the war effort can be summed up as practically nothing. The same could be said of several other planes.
Next we move on to the concept of AH giving something not given before. While the style of play is familiar, the plane list isn't. So far this has been the place to fly some exotic birds seldom if ever modeled. This is a pull for me personally, else this would be just another AW/FA/WB, with nothing to distinguish it from the others.
If you don't get it by now, we clearly could argue for or against any plane anyone ever considers for inclusion. What's the point? More is better usually, why not take more?
My personal preference would be to move off the American/German aircraft for a while and get some other countries fleshed out. It doesn't matter ultimately because about any plane included will get flown.
I do have to laugh at one thing though (and please forgive me, LW). I for the life of me cannot believe that parties that lobby against the Hurri IIc could in the next breath lobby for the 177. There is no historic, gameplay, or side-balancing argument for that type of silliness.
[ 08-11-2001: Message edited by: Kieran ]
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First, i don't lobby against the Hurricane. But i do want to see the contenders in the arena facing each other on eaqual terms.
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I agree Kieren. Attempting to balance the Axis versus Allied planesets is not historical, especially in the area of strategic bombing capacity.
Personally, I'd prefer to see a Japanese or Russian bomber of ANY type before another Luftwaffe or Allied one.
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Originally posted by Dowding:
Attempting to balance the Axis versus Allied planesets is not historical, especially in the area of strategic bombing capacity.
The Germans had strategic bombers eaqual or better than the Allies. But not enough of them were produced. But enough of them were produced to put them in AH.
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Ok Ding...no problem, put them in, and then perk them at 1000 points to represent how often you would see them in the skies.
Problem solved. The Germermans get their heavy bomber and the perk points will keep limit it's use to what was available.
Cobra
Hey, it's a plan, not a great plan, but a plan.
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Whilst you're trying to balance the planesets, how about an unperked RAF fighter from 1943 or 44. Flying the same 1942 plane in 1944 has nothing whatsoever to do with accuracy or balance.
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"The Germans had strategic bombers equal or better than the Allies."
Baloney. They (nor the other Axis powers) anything like the Lancaster, B-24, B-29 or the B-36 in development or in production.
A close shot could have been the ME-263 but it never seriously went anywhere.
(http://users.visi.net/~djohnson/prototyp/264-11.jpg)
Medium bombers the Axis were fine. The A-26 Invader being the king of the hill however.
Westy
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Dowding its kinda "confirmed" that Tupolev Tu-2 will be in game and as far as I can see its Best Russian WW2 bomber ever made (I hope HTC gives it a "OverLoad" option too).
Also best (imo) U.S made bomber is in game, B-17G with stunning firepower.
Brits have Lanc with .50cal tail guns and huge payload, again best british "Heavy" AFAIK.
So is there any good reason why we shouldn't have He-177 in AH?
Why should LW have only Ju-88 from 1940 as their only non-perked bomber ?
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Ding - to say the LW had anything even remotely approaching the quality of aircraft the Allies had in the role of heavy bomber is not supported by the facts. What they had were relatively few pathetically unreliable types, which only on paper are of equal ability.
Staga - The way I've always seen the perk system was a mechanism to introduce rare aircraft and/or aircraft that would unbalance the MA if their use was unlimited.
The Ju-88, Lancaster, B-17 and Tu-2 were produced in very large numbers, saw extensive action in whatever theatre they were posted to and were significant parts of the respective airforces they served with. For these reasons they are unperked. You could apply the same reasoning to any airforce.
Now, if you wanted to introduce the B-29, that would be a good candidate for a perk bomber plane considering its huge payload, its superb defensive armament etc and its fairly late entrance into combat.
The He-177 saw very little combat compared to the LW medium bombers and it was also produced in far less numbers for a bomber. Consequently, if it was modelled here, I'd hope it was perked. I don't know what value, less than the Arado I'd assume.
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The way I've always seen the perk system was a mechanism to introduce rare aircraft and/or aircraft that would unbalance the MA if their use was unlimited.
In that case I expect Lanc to be perked. It has a huge payload and if its free for everyone to use all fields would be smoking holes in ground. Yesterday I wrecked all fighterhangars from a base with a Lanc.
Hey Lanc isn't perked and most of fields in Arena are still operative ?
F4U-1C: about 200 made.
He-177A5: 826 made.
Looks like He-177's price would be about 2 points and I could live with it :)
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I don't see any reason whatsoever to Perk the He177A-5 in the MA.
In the CT, however, it should probably have a small perk price attached to it in order to enforce its rarity.
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Okay, trying again.
If you want the He177 just say, "I want the He177." Trying to prove its historical significance is a waste of time. We can argue the reasons all day long why it failed, but the fact is it failed. An AH 177 would have none of the disastrous historical problems, so what you wind up with is a plane with all the strengths but none of the weaknesses- like many other planes we have.
You must admit though the argument for adding anything German or American at the moment is pretty weak.
On the German side you have the only two jets, one of the finest, high performing piston-engined fighters, one of the most versatile medium bombers of the war, the only tank of the game, a murderous anti-aircraft/assault weapon (with how many actually manufactured and deployed?), and various models of the two frontline fighters. Pity poor Germany.
On the American side you have undoubtedly two of the finest bombers of the war and representatives and variants of 5 frontline fighters, a torpedo bomber, halftrack, LVT's, and carrier task forces.
Italy has two fighters, only one competitive.
Japan has three fighters, bad-medium-good.
Russia has three fighters and two ground attack planes.
Britain has one of the best bombers, a perk fighter, a ground attack plane, and variants of the Spitfire.
It's obvious where need is, now isn't it? Are we still talking "fair?" Talk to the Italians and the Japanese about their planes that could be included, planes that served in large numbers and made a significant contribution to the war. Talk to the Russians about the massive numbers of units produced and deployed.
See, you know all this already. I do think we sometimes get so wrapped up in what we want that we forget how much better we have it than the other guy.
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Well said, Kieran.
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I don't have anything against adding T-34, Spit XIV, Mosquito, G4M, Sherman, Ki-84 etc to the game.
I don't have a urge to type in topics where people are lobbying these.
What I found wierd is there's lots of people who are trying to convict in every topics concerning He-177 that it doesn't belong to the AH's planeset.
This is not WW2, This is a game played with planes from WW2.
Think about it next time you want to type in topics like this one. Better yet start your own topic why He-177 shouldn't be in game.
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Kieran just start a topic where you want those planes added and I'll support you.
Of course I could find several reasons, more or less stupid, why those planes shouldn't be in AH but I can't see why should anyone act like that if plane/vehicle was in operative use in WW2.
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Believe it or not, I am staying on your topic. Don't tell me to start a new thread, you do want to see this discussed, right?
I am not lobbying against the He177. I am not lobbying for it. I am comparing two threads that have occurred in the past few days.
More is better. I like everything. I like exotic birds, too. But the header states in effect that the He177 is a necessity because we have an HA, correct? Read one way that means the He177 is needed for the HA, read the other way it means the HA means a 177 in the MA doesn't matter.
In the first argument there are no historical records of significant contribution. In the second, there are too many other neglected nations that should demand more urgent attention. No matter how you slice it there are greater needs than that one particular plane.
I don't have a vendetta against the latest demand, I merely have a different view on the "need" for it.
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Originally posted by Kieran:
You must admit though the argument for adding anything German or American at the moment is pretty weak.
On the German side you have the only two jets, one of the finest, high performing piston-engined fighters, one of the most versatile medium bombers of the war, the only tank of the game, a murderous anti-aircraft/assault weapon (with how many actually manufactured and deployed?), and various models of the two frontline fighters. Pity poor Germany.
LW doesn't have a heavy bomber. All the piston engined fighters have their weaknesses: they aren't good turners. Now, how many countries had operational jets? Two. And the Brits will probably get the meteor @ a later date (Which only intercepted v-1's in the last 18 months of the war--and u want them when they hardly saw action in a low-key role? sounds like u RAF fans are very selective in the low action planes u want--only ones for ur side). .I also want to see GV's of other nationalities added before the Germans get another. But they lack a heavy bomber. Let me also add: Every country currently needs more planes in certain areas (i will exclude GV's--thats an obvious area. Brits need a medium/light bomber and a tank buster. Russians need a heavy bomber, a medium/light bomber, and a jabo. Americans need nothing in the way of planes. Italians and Japanese need a heavy bomber, a medium/light bomber, a tank buster, and a jabo. And the Germans need a heavy bomber. And the Germans need a heavy bomber. And the Germans need a heavy bomber. And the Germans need a heavy bomber. And the Germans need a heavy bomber. And the Germans need a heavy bomber. And the Germans need a heavy bomber. And the Germans need a heavy bomber. And the Germans need a heavy bomber. And the Germans need a heavy bomber. And the Germans need a heavy bomber. And the Germans need a heavy bomber.
There. (i'd like to see a german heavy bomber before japanese or italian since it'll see more use) Now, 'nuff said.
[ 08-12-2001: Message edited by: Ding_Hao ]
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But would it see more use than an Me410A, Me410B, Mosquito FB.VI, Ki84 Ib or Tu-2?
I think the Brits have their ground attack plane, the Typhoon andd the Russians have a Jabo in the Il-2. The Russians didn't really have a proper heavy bomber in WWII and neither, truth be told, did the Japanese.
FWIW, it seems the Russians will be getting their best bomber, the Tu-2, soon, probably in 1.08. The Tu-2 should be competative with the B-17.
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There. (i'd like to see a german heavy bomber before japanese or italian since it'll see more use) Now, 'nuff said.
Really think so? What do you base that observation on? ;)
"I want an He177!"- see how easy that is to say? I can't disagree with that, either, because you know what you want.
"Germans need a heavy bomber!"- yes they did. They just didn't have any that were reliable, deployed, and in large numbers in any area. The Allies needed a 400mph+ jet bomber, too, but didn't get it 'til after the war. See, I can argue against this.
BTW, are we arguing history or gameplay? I can never tell for sure when one of these debates start...
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Originally posted by Kieran:
But the header states in effect that the He177 is a necessity because we have an HA, correct? Read one way that means the He177 is needed for the HA, read the other way it means the HA means a 177 in the MA doesn't matter.
Sure an He-177 in the MA matters. There's buff pilots out there who would much rather fly this bird than a b-17 or Lancaster.
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Gameplay or history? Both. The HA needs to give both nationalities an equal opportunity to win. History? Don't forget that mini-blitz in '44. There were plenty of these Heinkel birds there.
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Kieran simple question:
Are you for or against getting He-177 in ah's planeset ?
If your opinion is it could be nice to have then say so.
If your against tell me the reason why you're against it.
Anyway fact is it was a "Real Thing" which was in use since 42/43; Just like other planes in AH were. Thought most used planes in AH came in active use AFTER He-177.
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Staga, the HE-177 would be a fine addition to the plane set. I'm more particular to the JU-290 but I forget it's bomb load.
Your statement that this is not WW2 but where we combat using WW2 aircraft is 100% right on.
People tend to forget that is what these online games are about. Even WW2O comes no where towards replicating or simulating WWII.
Westy
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Gameplay or history? Both. The HA needs to give both nationalities an equal opportunity to win. History? Don't forget that mini-blitz in '44. There were plenty of these Heinkel birds there.
Define "plenty". According to Green, "Warplanes of the Third Reich", page 345, second column, final paragraph:
For operation Steinbock, the so-called "Little Blitz" which was to mark the debut of the He177 over the British Isles, 1./KG 40 and 3./KG 100 came under Fliegerkorps IX and were co-ordinated as a single unit. Operation Steinbock had been conceived on the direct orders of Adolf Hitler as a reprisal against London, the OKL being forced to comb every operational unit in Italy and Russia for bombers to participate, some 550 aircraft eventually being gathered together, of which 35 were the He177s from KG 40 and KG 100.
Staga-
I am for everything; my list is just prioritized. ;)
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Tell what u just said to HTC, kieren. Just look @ the 152!
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beging for V1 flying bomb again !
before i thinked some camion convoy with mobile ramp or what but the bomber ported v1 will be maybe beter
it match up more precisely history and alied have oportunity use typhon, tempest to intercept them the guidage of V1 flying bomb can be made on the way how we use now the CV group range finder , make the range around 50 miles and minimal largage alt 5 k
V1 vas real danger for britain and it proved the efectivnes
perhaps V 2 like perk ? :D
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Ya know Minus, you could be on to something there...
Suppose you accepted V1's and V2's for the sake of argument. How do you implement them in a way that is fair and doesn't upset balance? Tie them to resources, except in reverse.
You assume that rocket research is being conducted on all sides. Left unmolested the research labs will successfully develop these types of weapons. It is therefore imperative to strike these facilities, else they rain V1's and V2's on your resources (with the same relative accuracy of their historic counterparts).
In the case of the V1 it would be possible to catch them, if difficult. In the case of the V2... well, better not let that get started. ;)
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gameplay balance ! well you right
that why is preferable to have bomber like launch porters thta mean player need to take off a buff with 1 V 1 loadet cruise in range and get the 5 k altitude
every 1 know how we use the Range finder on CV groups when u in range you can zoom on map you click and you got range and direction of the target
so same thing for the V1 and on plus you can aim at this way fields but it will be realy hard to aim anithing more precisely
becose after droping the V 1 no more corection aviable
the precision what we get this way is it jsut same like a CV sheling a field from 36 K distance
but will be preferable to give a V 1 biger blast radius to incrase hit probability on targeted field
is it more close to historical realizm like the actula laser norden drop on clasic bufs
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I would rather have He-177 with Fritz-X or Hs293 :)
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addendum-
With the advent of trains it is now obvious we need a reason to stop them from running. Keeping V1's (or any such weapon or resource) from reaching the place where it can do harm becomes vitally important, as does defending these lines.
Though a fantasy scenario, I like it because:
- It gives the strat guys something big to worry about. Their decisions can determine the weapons available to the enemy.
- It gives action guys a place guaranteed to bring action. Choke points offer a focal area of activity.
- It gives guys in the off-hour timezones something to play with when few people are on.
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Maybe trains are for resources;
No train -> No fuel/ammo ?
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Yup, but there is no reason why the reasons couldn't be more varied. For guys wanting more impetus to organize and be strategy minded, having a terror weapon under development in the other countries is something to consider.
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every train arival to field 20 pieces of V1 for example
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I like that train of thou__ (!! no pun intended) though Kieran, et al. I, for one, would certainly help out more (mission/goal wise) if I knew my efforts might help to stop the launching of V2's at our cities/bases/ports in two weeks or the ability for the enemy to have ME-163 capability in just one.
Westy