Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: AKDejaVu on August 15, 2002, 02:16:59 AM
-
This is not intended to be a dig on the people setting up the missions. This is not intended to be a dig on a specific country as if they were the only ones doing this.
This is simply intended to ask "why is this the best strategy for the MA?"
There is an old saying... "The best defense is a strong offense". The strange thing is... I've never seen a team win that played absolutely zero defense. In AH it seems to be the most sound tactic.
Its simply a race to see who can capture more. If large enough numbers are used against small enough numbers (both readily displayed on the dar) then you are virtually guaranteed a capture. Nothing against the people playing this way since it actually is the most valid strategy in the MA.
I simply wonder why things are set up to make this the most logical way of doing things. To be honest... the only illogical people in the picture are the 4 defenders.
There is zero reward for defending a base in AH. Right now, your only reward is knowing that the guy you just killed is loading up to come back again and he's going to be able to grab alt while you are trying to stop the other attackers. Its an excercise in futility at best.
This is, I guess, more of a plea to HTC to move away from the base capture mentality and come up with a way to even things out. Roaving hoards trying to avoid each other just seems silly.
-
Me mongo, me crush you with big wooden club!
-
Candygram for Mongo! :D
Base defence is a good way to get lots of kills, if you do it right and that is what makes the MA fun for me. Sometimes the best base defence is to take off from another field and vulch the nme where they are upping...
-
hmm looks like one of the Typhoon missions Bishits like so much :)
-
I don't know Deja! I have racked up some awesome kills just sitting on a base in a FlakPanzer. Many times at a VF I've been outnumbered 10:1 and held the field. Tonight, with just one helper and later two more, we Bishops managed to hold off five guys absolutely devoted to attacking and capturing two of our fields. They'd die fifteen times, finally capture the field, move on to the next one only to have us upset the cart and take it back.
I know what you mean, but you could also ask: Why are all those morons going after just one field? It's obvious that with only four defenders, and limited field assets, that many of them are going to land with all their ordinance and ammo, and without a single kill! It's just not efficient and a major waste of online time.
-
Deja, couldn't agree more.
It's is getting BORING at least.
I used to be one of those fools upping from a vulched field and kill the base attack (if I'm lucky).
But now I up from a field nearby, get some alt in a fast plane like the 190D9 and zoom, zoom, zoom the raid and get as many kills as possible (one of Fariz missions comes to mind, 3 weeks ago, where I landed 14 kills in D9 by doing just that).
The thing that strikes me most though, is where is the fun in raiding a field with 20+ tiffies (or any other good jabo)??????
I mean, you get one or two base thingies down, if your not in the end of the raid and if your lucky, but getting a kill at the field (with only 3-4 defenders) is highly unlikely!!!
Hence, of the 20+ plp raiding only 3-5 get something out it (funny thing is, it is prolly always the same small group of plp that do get something out of it).
I took part in such mission too in the past but now to me it is just plane boring and not challenging, but hee, that's just me, :)
I would rather see a complete revision of the current strat system in the next release than a new plane set.
-
Defense = Furball !!!
And the next one could post a new thread about that all the furballs are getting boring.
-
Defense is not furballs (most of the time not anyway)
Most of the time bases are not defended at all or just by a handfull (it is not particularly rewarding to defend a base, for many anyway)
Furballs sometimes start from defense of an base attack yes, but they are self sustaining because plp want to furball. Both 'attackers' and 'defenders' keep upping, not for the purpose of there tittle, but because they want to furball. Soon plp up because they see a huge mix of red and green bars just to enter a furball.
If every base attack would be followed by a huge defense (No wise) then Defense = furball applies.
-
Hehe Apar sure ur right not every defense lasts in a furball but why bother about people play the way they like i.e. not defending a base?
-
HTC has a knack for announcing up and coming improvements timed with MA boredom, don't they? (Think "Mission arena") ;)
-
Ya.. was thinking that Rip.. but was also thinking that this will be even worse when the mission arena pops up.
And duedel... you obviously don't get "furball". They don't happen where they are needed. They happen where they are not needed... and just stay there.
AKDejaVu
-
deja... I agree. I also think it is a function of the fields being slightly too far apart and the current plane set.
With the fields far apart it becomes very risky to venture out away from your field unless you are in a huge group. Your chances of fighting your way home are slim unless you are in the fastest planes in the arena.
At the closer fields people tend to meet in the middle. I find that meeting in the middle or smaller raids produce the best gameplay.
I have no idea what thse guys in the horde pictured are getting out of the game. they are easily amused and lack talent and self esteem is all that I can figure. Or... ripsnore is to blame.
lazs
-
half those guys ib will commit suicide to get 1 ack down.
Those bish typh raids 90% of them kill themselves. They respawn and kill themselves again. theres no "defense" against that.
Its kinda like escort duty. If theres no fear of death the attacker will charge head long through the escorts with little regard of his virtual life. Same with cv suiciders.
Theres is simply no defense.
I think the whole "base capture" thing need to be scrapped. Skurj had a good idea about fronts. There are good ideas about large industrial/city complexes being the trigger for reset. (not karnaks, his idea would terrible for gameplay).
The mission arena if done correctly will be a great compliment to the main. The main is where the fights get down and dirty. The mission planner in ah is great but it really is never used for anything more then a gangbang planner. The most complex missions/strategies consist of. "lets get 25 typhies and suicide a39". I mean a real mission minded guy could plan a whole campaign with multiple missions each complimenting each other. But thats to complicated for the main.
You cant defend against an endless wave of kamikazis.
And you cant make folks fly the way you want.
We sunk a cv a few weeks ago we had 7 190 f8s. just enough ord to sink it. We all dropped all got hits and no one died and the cv sunk. No suicide.
Ya ever see blitz dominate an airfield alone? I have seen him do this numerous times so I went offline to practice and now I can deack a small field and kill the vh and most of the twn 95% alone. Med fields I can deack and kill the vh 80% of the time alone. This is in an f8. People just dont care. They are there to get that field and will kill themselves over and over until its theirs. Then they S! themselves with what a good job they did.
They are driving for that reset where they will earn some perks. But what i learned was I get many many more perks being on the losing end then rests.
But hey the winners are the ones who reset :rolleyes:
-
Ok... I know those valiant suicide typhooners don't read this board but... does anyone have any idea of what they may be getting out of those 150% loss raids? I like to kill 3 or four of em and then try to land or go out to sea to ditch. I would think that pretty soon they would guess that "capturing a field" is not a big deal in the MA and that they are far from "respected and feared". I mean.... what do they get out of it?
lazs
-
Have no idea I watched one of those guys from that main bish typhoon sucide squad come out to one of our cvs, dive in, 5 minutes later he was back, dive from 10k, firing hispanos until impact, but since he had so little skill he wouldnt drop his bombs until 1 sec before impact, so I got him with the .5in upped for a quick f4f sortie then back in .5in when he came back again. Someone else got him the 5th and 6th times. Is it that hard to learn just a bit of skills?
-
Guys....it's just the hand the general population has been dealt. It is by design, what is done. Now some of the older more experienced players have adapted and found niches where they can have their own fun, but overall, this is the world we play in.
I understand what you're saying Lazs, but what would prevent a large horde of players upping from fields placed closer together and overwhelming the other field as the do currently. Those midway fights that you spoke of are the most fun, but wouldn't the chance for that to happen more often occur, if fields were placed further apart so as to allow the attacked country time to mount a defence and hit the attackers enroute instead of on top of their own field? Just a thought.
Personally guys....it is what it is and I really don't think it can be changed in any significant way....if it could, why have we not seen this change over the past 12 years or so?
For some silly reason, I think the answer lies in the terrain design...seems to me that the terrain alone can modify how we all do our business.
Just a thought...personally, I'm happy doin what makes me happy, blowin up bad guys and hangin with my buds, all for the low low price of an oil change:)
-
I can ignore the pleas to "join my mission" and "big mission in the planner, join now" right up until the Generals start using Caps Lock.
Then I find that a mind-numbing trance comes over me and although I will myself to resist (no... must.... not.. argggh.. join!) I am powerless to stop my hand from making the mouse click in the map room.
I think HT should disable Caps Lock.
*******
But seriously now folks. I don't join the big raids because there's never enough meat on the table for everyone as someone pointed out.
One still gets involved in those circle jerks anyway when furball numbers shift or a big raid comes into a place that you are already furring.
When I SEE a big nme raid coming I usually fight the first wave but after the first self sacrifice it's time to move on. As has been pointed out, it's awfully hard to have an effect on 40 aircraft that mean to take your base.
Problem is people do what they want to do. I'm hoping the Mission Theater thins things out a bit; I think it will if they don't futz with the normal arena settings in search of some more manly form of a PC based game that fakes real-life WW2 air combat or whatever.
If that fails, maybe a little map experimentation is in order but that will be tricky too. Lot of trial and error went into what we have now. Be lots more to change it successfully. Might be worth it though.
-
Toad, you need to join one of my missions. I prefer to hit a target that has a HUGE red bar over the field, and alot of times we just do fighter sweeps in those areas. Plenty to eat for everyone :) Unfortunately, I rarely get in the MA anymore these days...
-
I agree with Wotan.
No matter how many you kill, you can never kill them all.
A typical 412th combat mission consists of finding a large group of enemy attacking one of our fields. We fly to the field they are taking off from and start shooting them down as they are en-route to their target.
This works out great, about only for a short while. Soon, the enemy is coming up in fast climbing fighters with low fuel. You can only shoot them down so many times before you end up running low on ammo and loosing E advantage. Then it's just a matter of the numbers.
I can remember one time, I shot down the same guys two or three times each.
In the MA, there is really no sense of going out, completing a mission objective (like shooting down all of the attackers) and then flying home after victory. It's more like, go out, shoot down as many as you can, and then RUN LIKE HELL to try and get away from the horde.
But the running away is the same old story. There is usually one or two squad mates that can't get out, so the rest of the squad goes back to help them. As you go into to help, five more high, fast and fresh enemy fighters are diving in right behind you. And the worst part about it...
You usually end up getting killed by the same guy you already shot down 2x that mission. :rolleyes:
-
Originally posted by AKDejaVu
[B
Its simply a race to see who can capture more.
[/B]
That's correct. The reason being that the offense always has the advantage - they know where the action is going to be because they're the ones creating the action. Its not just air-to-air kills that score points, its dropping bombs and shooting rockets to eliminate a hangar, a town, a carrier, whatever. If defenders come up, they'll probably be at an alt disadvantage because the offense would've upped first.
There are some ways to counter the advantage, such as flying the LA-7, or manning an Ostwind or M-16, but you never really know where the strike is aimed until its more than half-way to target.
The only way to write a mission to counter a strike mission is to write a fighter-only mission. And if the enemy's offense never materializes, then that defensive mission just became a gang-bang fighter sweep mission over whatever enemy airfield has a counter in it, and even then, there's little chance that you'll be the one getting the kill.
From a planning perspective, there's really no enthusiasm for a defensive fighter mission because there's no real guarantee that you'll find something to shoot. If you're going to write a mission, might as well plan one that'll have a definite target.
-
Bring aircraft factories to aces high. Blow up factory X then no plane x for that country (or that zone). Just an example - lets have something other than just airfeilds to attack - something that has real consequences (i.e something people would WANT to attack AND defend).
People just don't get too worked up over the current strat targets. I also feel GV's should be available at strat targets - they would have been defended. With corresponding Vehicle base spawn points these could also provide for some diversification by become large GV battles (with fewer Airplanes since airfield not right there)
(could also have GV factories as well - who wouldn't want to bomb an ostwind factory? ;) )
-
This was last night just after they captured a38 wasn't it?
I was that green dot to the SW of the base in a hurri IIc, one of the probs with the new radar circle is you cant see that your about to die :(
But out of all those planes I got to fight with a 262 , and lost eventually - i missed a sitter of a shot as he flew across my sights at d200 :( (must remember I need more lead as he's going faster)
But yeah generally these gangbang mission suck and it was all furballs last night mainly
oh well :)
-
Originally posted by Turbot
Bring aircraft factories to aces high. Blow up factory X then no plane x for that country (or that zone).
....
(could also have GV factories as well - who wouldn't want to bomb an ostwind factory? ;) )
That's the best suggestion I've heard since Air Warrior closed down. Frankly, I'm surprised Aces High hasn't incorporated this concept already. One of the key strategic aspects of Air Warrior was taking down the Spitfire factory and thereby forcing all of the Spitfire dweebs into P-38s, FWs, Mustangs, and 109s. You haven't seen panic until you've seen alarms raised about a group of B-17s inbound to the Spitfire factory.
If they include this strategic idea, I'll be the first to write the 'Supermarine Shutdown' mission. Wouldn't mind seeing the N1K2 factory get pummelled either :)
-
Originally posted by AKDejaVu
There is zero reward for defending a base in AH. Right now, your only reward is knowing that the guy you just killed is loading up to come back again and he's going to be able to grab alt while you are trying to stop the other attackers. Its an excercise in futility at best.
Ah DJ, that's because you're looking at the sim from an intellectual point of view. Many guys play the sim from an emotional point of view: Hey, they're trying to capture our base! Defend it against all odds! Some guys provide a sim-country loyalty which is startling. :) Personally, I suspect that group gains the most pleasure from Aces High.
There's no doubt about it - if someone persists in playing Aces High from an intellectual point of view, eventually, they'll become bored.
From my POV, the most fun can be gained by flying with a squad. In that manner, the very worst thing that can happen is that you can laugh and cut up with the group, even if you are doing dumb things (like defending an airfield against horrible odds.) The best can be very entertaining. :)
curly
-
Hehe Apar sure ur right not every defense lasts in a furball but why bother about people play the way they like i.e. not defending a base?
Everybody can fly how he wants Duedel. I just can't see the fun in mass raiding fields. And as I said, that''s just silly me.
I didn't like Lazs his constant advertising of furballs. But I have to admit, that most fun flights are the ones in which I fly into furballs or high concentration of enemies and come out of it alive.
It gives me a feeling of achievement which mass raiding a lonely field surely doesn't.
;)
-
Defending a heavily attacked field is occasionally very fun. When the field is being vulched it can be a real challenge just to get yer wheels off the ground. If I get a kill or two I'm quite satisfied even if I died 3-4 times trying to get up.
Anything can get boring if it becomes repititous, gotta venture away from the safe things occasionally. :)
-
Originally posted by AKcurly
Ah DJ, that's because you're looking at the sim from an intellectual point of view. Many guys play the sim from an emotional point of view: Hey, they're trying to capture our base! Defend it against all odds! Some guys provide a sim-country loyalty which is startling. :) Personally, I suspect that group gains the most pleasure from Aces High.
No Curly, I was there when there were 5 defenders on the map. I am simply trying to figure out why this is the norm. I do believe Toad said it best in regards to what I feel most do in that situation: "When I SEE a big nme raid coming I usually fight the first wave but after the first self sacrifice it's time to move on. As has been pointed out, it's awfully hard to have an effect on 40 aircraft that mean to take your base."
I was with a group of about 5 people that were defending A38 most of the day against raids of about 10 people. They almost captured the base several times and momentum would definately shift back and forth. Eventually, this moved in on 38. Then it moved in on 39.
There's no doubt about it - if someone persists in playing Aces High from an intellectual point of view, eventually, they'll become bored.
Once again Curly... you are simply off base. I did not even remotely mention boredome. I know how, where and when to have my fun in the MA. Its simply about a strategy model actually promoting this tactic.
From my POV, the most fun can be gained by flying with a squad. In that manner, the very worst thing that can happen is that you can laugh and cut up with the group, even if you are doing dumb things (like defending an airfield against horrible odds.) The best can be very entertaining. :)
I'm sure its always enteraining for you guys Curly. Each and every time it happens. Its just odd that I don't recall seeing any AKs there chuckling at the time. They were on, but they were attacking another base. Because that was definately a more logical thing to be doing at the time.
AKDejaVu
-
I think base defense is fun:
1. You don’t waste time climbing and looking for the enemy—they come to you.
2. You can do well in a slow, hi-perk plane, like a Hurricane IIc, because you don’t need to catch anybody (see #1). Besides, if the 190s run away, you’ve won.
3. You don’t have to worry about gas and ammo -- you usually get killed before you run out.
4. But if you get killed, you’re right back up. On the other hand, when you kill a bad guy, it takes him a while to get back to the base. (I said fun, not realistic)
5. And if there seems like there are too many bad guys, remember you don’t have to kill them all -- just the goons. Kill 3-4 goons and you can prevent or delay a capture for quite a while.
-
Originally posted by AKDejaVu
No Curly, I was there when there were 5 defenders on the map. I am simply trying to figure out why this is the norm.
AKDejaVu
Heh, perhaps I didn't make it clear. Like I said, I think guys do this for emotional reasons. Furthermore, I believe any attempt to change the game (either by creating a new arena - Mission Theater or by changing the strat model in the MA) will be a failure.
I think the majority of guys in Aces High enjoy the sim at an emotional level rather than an intellectual level.
I don't believe the majority of participants are concerned about the "good fight" or the proper way to attack an opponent. I think they simply want to kill bad guys, defend their real estate and capture real estate if that's an option.
Guys who take an intellectual approach look at the guys who gleefully kamikaze CVs and shake their head. The intellectual group shakes its collective head and say "man, how unrealistic." The CV killer isn't concerned with realism. He's concerned with the game in Aces High and wants his country to win the war.
From my POV it's pretty simple. There are a host of games that go on simultaneously in the MA. You have:
1) people who try try to take the smart approach to every situation;
2) you have the group who simply likes to furball;
3) you have a large group who wants their country to win the war!
If you get too wrapped up in one method, the other guys look crazy.
Let me emphasize, I'm not claiming I know the answer. I'm certainly not asserting the intellectual approach is inferior or superior. I'm not claiming I know anything. I'm just offering my opinion about the majority of participants in Aces High.
curly
-
Originally posted by AKcurly
1) people who try try to take the smart approach to every situation;
2) you have the group who simply likes to furball;
3) you have a large group who wants their country to win the war!
And here I thought furballing was the smart approach to every situation. :)
-- Todd/Leviathn
-
Curly,
Why do people capture bases? Don't tell me that its just because they like it. They do it because the strat model says this is what is needed to win the war.
Why are there such great numerical disparities between attackers and defenders? Because capturing a field wins a war not defending one.
The strat in the game dictates behavior. It lays out the ground rules and everyone plays within those constraints. That's why I don't view this behavior as vile or hindering or anything like that. I view it as the action necessary to be successful in the MA right now with the given strategy model. Capturing a field is one of the few things that 50 people can do together... yet only 10 really actuall do anything, but the 40 others still feel they contributed.
I'm not breaking down the who's and ways nor am I trying to place everyone in 3 neet categories.
AKDejaVu
-
Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
And here I thought furballing was the smart approach to every situation. :)
-- Todd/Leviathn
That's just 'cuz yer a cheatin' spitquake furball dweeb.:p
-
Personnally, I don't understand the whole concept.
Why care about Flight Model reality if you don't care about strategic reality?
Why care about ballistics reality if you don't care about strategic reality?
Why care about damage model reality if you don't care about strategic reality?
I mean, what is the point of so many whining about aircraft specs, 1K+ .50 calibers, single ping kills, etc. if they could care less about the reality of how they play?
If you are going to play it like a game, and not care about trying to live, or fly in a manner that simulates what you might do if you were actualy in that cockpit, then why not just accpet how everything else works? After all, it's just game, right?
Give us a semi-realistic strategic element, where each country has a limited supply of resources to work with. Resources that would have to be moved to the front in order to be effective in the war.
Take a field and let it be at 0% resources. Have resources that generate over time. As aircraft, fuel and ords are used, the resource levels start to go down. If the fuel resources get used up, then the field would need to be resupplied or need time to generate more resources.
Make the number of aircraft limited. As they fly off, the reserves start to get low. If you run out of aircraft, you have to wait for the factory to build more.
*** My Newest Thought *** Make a player only get X lives per hour (maybe 5, maybe 10, some number). Once they have used all their lives for that hour, they have to wait till the next hour to get more.
Or make a player have a "bank" of lives that increments by 1 for every 10 minutes. The bank would have a capacity of 10. Every time the player spawned a new vehicle/aircraft, their bank balance decreases by 1. If they use up all their lives before they regenerate, then they are stuck gunning for a little while.
That might stop some of the endless insta-spawn garbage that we often see.
Unfortunately, the war of attritian is won by the defender. All he has to do is keep re-spawning until the attacking enemy runs out of fuel, ords or ammo. <-- and that is the reason you see the roving gangbang hordes. You need shear wieght of numbers to defeat the enemy by overwhelming force, rather than giving them a sound tactial beating.
-
rude... not sure but i think you are contradicting yourself.. You say that terrainmay be the solution and I say that terrain is the solution but byu terrain I mean haveing the fields closer together. yu seem to feel that having em farther apart would work.
I don't think anyone cares about "defending" against these raids so much as... like toad and myself, you are just caught at em or.. you up so that you can kill 2-10 of em and move on.
with the closer fields it (on the current maps) it simply doesn't happen... the lameo's can't get all their guys toghether and off in time to be "organized" the resulting fur between the closer fields is filled with people flying in ones and twos or at most threes... you meet squadmates coming and going but you don't all sit at the field and take off at the same time.
also... if the planeset were different then the field distance would not be as important... A fur between or at far fields does not develop now in the current maps because... no one wants to risk it in the slower planes... you don't want to get caught too far from base or friendly groups in a slow plane. Seperate the fast planes from the slow and it changes the equation.
and besides... you don't know anything and no one likes you.
lazs
-
Originally posted by Midnight
*** My Newest Thought *** Make a player only get X lives per hour (maybe 5, maybe 10, some number). Once they have used all their lives for that hour, they have to wait till the next hour to get more.
Or make a player have a "bank" of lives that increments by 1 for every 10 minutes. The bank would have a capacity of 10. Every time the player spawned a new vehicle/aircraft, their bank balance decreases by 1. If they use up all their lives before they regenerate, then they are stuck gunning for a little while.
That might stop some of the endless insta-spawn garbage that we often see.
Nah, that would cause people to fly together in tighter bunches - the herding mentality - and would reduce the number of people willing to be the spearpoint to a base attack or carrier strike.
-
and besides... you don't know anything and no one likes you.
Well, I believe the above to be a hurtful remark on your part and I am, quite frankly, taken back by it.:)
I do see your point....I just read all of this and wonder to myself, what will ever be done to satisfy everyone or at least enhance gameplay to a point that folks are more satisfied.
Now I do disagree with your contradiction statement....I'm not talking about location of bases within a terrain, but rather the actual terrain design itself...having bases close to each other is necessary, however, in of it's self, it is not the endall.
Another component which will change our climate is subscribership...what happens to all that we care about when the online population grows to 1000 or 1500 players?
I'm just glad to have my heart beating and to be along for the ride.
Oh yeah....good to see the snide Lazs back on the boards:)
-
I ususally up Jugs in defense of fields. Why? 3400rnds of .50 cal in the D-30. 50% fuel, 25% if a few dots remain. I SAW PLANES IN HALF. Pansy Ponies are nothing nor La7's, especially when I have the convergance set at 650. I've shot a La-7 down from 1.2k AIMED.
I agree with Rude on this.
Karaya2
-
Originally posted by Midnight
Personnally, I don't understand the whole concept.
Why care about Flight Model reality if you don't care about strategic reality?
Why care about ballistics reality if you don't care about strategic reality?
Why care about damage model reality if you don't care about strategic reality?
Because some of us want to play a combat flight sim, not a strategy game.
-
Originally posted by runny
Because some of us want to play a combat flight sim, not a strategy game.
I think you meant to reverse the words "sim" and "game"
-
Originally posted by Turbot
I think you meant to reverse the words "sim" and "game"
LOL You're not suggesting, are you, that the strategic elements of AH even remotely approximate reality? Because that would be really ignorant.
-- Todd/Leviathn
-
All this tread boils down to simple "I know what is fun, because it is fun for me. Other people do not have fun, because they do not fly the way, I think is fun".
Nothing new in putting yourself into the center of things, that is what we humans are. But a little bit of respect for a people, who enjoy different things is always apreciated. Bit of good humor is good also, it helps when you find, that you takes all it too serious.
Trust me, people next to you, who enjoy scores, or strat, or furballing, or flying buffs at 30k, or b&z, or turn&burn, or head on, or whatever, does not play this way, because they are masochist, and torture themselve. They are having fun, but they are having fun their way.
I personally love every aspect of this game, good furball, good vulch, strat, scores, teamplay, lone hunting etc. Some tours I make 10 missions per day, some I fly for scores, or for streak, some I defend undefendable fields, and die 100 times. I think, AH has place for all of us, for all differences, and amen, I am after me vodka.
-
Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
LOL You're not suggesting, are you, that the strategic elements of AH even remotely approximate reality? Because that would be really ignorant.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Actually, it seems I was too subtle and you missed the point entirely :)
-
i like the idea of limited number of planes available. when there are limited planes on hand the side that kills the most without losing their aircraft can achieve "air superority" and prevent suicidal atttacks.
But also you could make goons and trains able to bring in supplies when needed or make then be able to store up supplies to offset the poor pilot skills. wich would make interdiction mission needed. and you could secretly build up resources at fields so you could launch suprise offensives and counter attacks from field just behind the front line.
And maybe make large fields have more resources than small ones.
-
Originally posted by runny
Because some of us want to play a combat flight sim, not a strategy game.
I think you miss the point.
If someone doesn't care that they can spawn new planes over and over for infinity not caring about life or death, why does that same person care if the flight model of a plane is not 100% accurate? Or why would they care that a .50 cal gun has the ability to kill at ranges exceeding 1K?
If they want to play and just have fun, then why don't they just accept that the way it is is the way it is?
Obviously having insta-spawn anywhere on the map is no where close to reality, so why should it matter if something else is a little off?
I know that none, if any of the strategic elements I am talking about will ever get into the MA, but I sure hope that something like this will happen in the upcoming Mission Theater.
I hate to sound biased in advance, but I keep seeing this horrible image of what will probably happen in the MT.
There will be a group of players that try very hard to work on their ranks and scores, going for high kill streaks and seeing who can be the best. If there is no penalty for suiciding, or limits on how many spawns per hour a player can have, the whole concept could be ruined.
It's kind of like trying to play a team sport, like basketball. Everyone has a good time playing, but if one guy doesn't play by the rules (I.e. Running with the ball instead of dribbling) then the whole game gets ruined for everyone else.
Hopefully, mission theater will have some basic ground rules and try to avert the normal suicide kings from their constant death before strategy mentality.
-
"...I think you miss the point. If someone doesn't care that they can spawn new planes over and over for infinity not caring about life or death, why does that same person care if the flight model of a plane is not 100% accurate? Or why would they care that a .50 cal gun has the ability to kill at ranges exceeding 1K?...".
A lot, if not most, just want to fly fighter vs fighter. They also want the FM, damage modeling and weaponry to be as accurate as possible so that they can simulate the real thing...as close as they're ever going to get. Fun (aka fighting) and a desire for reality need not be mutually exclusive.
If you fly to fight, you're obviously going to get shot down a lot more then somebody who flies to survive. If you penalize them, you'll have an even more timid arena then you have now...and a lot less fun. Timid people fly in hordes for protection. A major reason for all of the gangbanging.
bowser
-
Originally posted by bowser
If you fly to fight, you're obviously going to get shot down a lot more then somebody who flies to survive. If you penalize them, you'll have an even more timid arena then you have now...and a lot less fun. Timid people fly in hordes for protection. A major reason for all of the gangbanging.
I disagree. I fly to survive, but I also fly to fight. I routinely go hunting for bandits in enemy territory and find myself to be one of very few, if not the only friendly around for miles.
Granted, I look for oppurtunity to kill. I find it pointless to dive into a mass of low cons just to kill one or two, knowing that I will die shortly after.
I would rather kill 5 or 6 of them and fly home after, than shoot down 7 or 8 of them and end up back in the tower.
-
I think MT is supposed to have a pilot life tracker ... if you die you start over stats etc .... so you don't die. (good fix imho but not for everyone)
fariz said it the right way... i know what i like; you don't so stop takeing the age old human falicy of thinking you know best. HTC is working on it .. MT
-
Originally posted by Midnight
I would rather kill 5 or 6 of them and fly home after, than shoot down 7 or 8 of them and end up back in the tower.
And I would rather do the latter. By definition, you are more timid than someone who is willing to hang it all out and go for more kills at greater risk. Sometimes that guy makes it home too, and he has more to show for it than you.
The thing that baffles me is... why not go for seven or eight kills if the opportunity presents itself? Aces High is about air combat, after all, and what better way to test the limits of ACM and SA than by going for it? Landing is something better left to Microsoft Flight Simulator. I'm in it for the killing.
-- Todd/Leviathn
-
Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
And I would rather do the latter. By definition, you are more timid than someone who is willing to hang it all out and go for more kills at greater risk. Sometimes that guy makes it home too, and he has more to show for it than you.
Have you ever played a competitive sport? How about PaintBall?
If you were playing, would you go and run right into a large group from the opposite side? Sure, You may tag a few of them, but with almost complete certainty, you will be tagged as well.
Being that most paintball game rules are that once you are shot, you are out until the next round starts, you would probably not just go running in, but try to figure out the best way to attack the enemy while minimizing your own risk.
Of people that know me, 'timid' is the last thing they would think of me. Being aggressive doesn't mean you have to be suicidal
Maybe it's just because my plane of choice is a P-51D. This plane has a very small chance of survial in a furball situation where turn-fighters like the LA7, N1k, Spit, A6M, etc. are blasting away with 20mm cannons.
-
Originally posted by Midnight
Have you ever played a competitive sport? How about PaintBall?
If you were playing, would you go and run right into a large group from the opposite side? Sure, You may tag a few of them, but with almost complete certainty, you will be tagged as well.
[/B]
Newsflash: Aces High is not Paintball. These comparisons you continuously draw to competitive team sports such as basketball or paintball don't hold for Aces High. First, you aren't hindering any "team" effort in AH by flying aggressively. Teamwork is what you make of it in this game -- there are no firm rules of conduct and no realistic expectations of team play unless the players desire it. The goal is to shoot down other players, and the facade of field capture and countries "winning" a war merely serves to facilitate air combat (albeit in a flawed fashion, as I believe DejaVu has correctly observed). In other words, there is no penalty in the main arena for flying aggressively beyond some skewed stats/rank and a bruised ego.
Second, air combat is primarily individualistic. Rank... stats... or reputation... these are all things that reflect on us as individuals. In a 1v1, it's simply us versus another person. Even in furballs, individual skill remains an important factor in success. Think of Aces High as something more like a game of chess or a game of tennis, not one of basketball or paintball.
Being that most paintball game rules are that once you are shot, you are out until the next round starts, you would probably not just go running in, but try to figure out the best way to attack the enemy while minimizing your own risk.
[/B]
Which exactly proves my point that Aces High is not like paintball... thankfully.
Of people that know me, 'timid' is the last thing they would think of me. Being aggressive doesn't mean you have to be suicidal
[/B]
Who said it did? I go into any fight expecting to win or at least make it interesting.
Maybe it's just because my plane of choice is a P-51D. This plane has a very small chance of survial in a furball situation where turn-fighters like the LA7, N1k, Spit, A6M, etc. are blasting away with 20mm cannons.
Which is why the P-51 had more kills than any other plane in AH last tour, no doubt. Don't shortchange it... I and many others know that it's a dominating furballer if you fly it to its advantages.
-- Todd/Leviathn
-
>Have you ever played a competitive sport? How about PaintBall?
>If you were playing, would you go and run right into a large
>group from the opposite side? Sure, You may tag a few of them,
>but with almost complete certainty, you will be tagged as well.
I played with some people recently, maybe two years ago using a semiauto paintgun and I wiped out an entire team on my own.
God that felt good!
I got tired of folowing the capt orders as we were like pinned down again so I went off and around and down through the creek and up the back side and one by one they fell...
Actually it was luck really. Turns out they were all too preoccupied in the other direction and deft at the same time. What are the chances of that. Lucky me.
:D
-
I think a terrian with only floating bases and no land bases would be fun for a day, or maybe even two .
-
Originally posted by Midnight
I think you miss the point.
If someone doesn't care that they can spawn new planes over and over for infinity not caring about life or death, why does that same person care if the flight model of a plane is not 100% accurate? Or why would they care that a .50 cal gun has the ability to kill at ranges exceeding 1K?
That's pretty simple: we are all selective about the realism we demand. Nobody complains that it doesn't take several hours to fly to the target and back on a raid, or that radar has a single point of failure. This is not a very useful answer, but I would like to point out that we all have beams in our eyes, as we point to the motes in others'.
The physical factors of air combat are much easier to simulate and verify than the psychological factors. To simulate these last, most people suggest using arbitrary (in the sense of online games) methods to coerce players into behaving in accordance to a vision of how they should behave.
So, the reason that most people care about tactical realities like ballistics a lot more than they care about the strategic realities, is that in one case they are told: "this is how the P51-D performed in real life -- this is how it will perform in the game," where in the other, they are told "real pilots didn't do that with their lives on the line, so I'm not going to let you." While the reasons for doing this may seem very good for you, rest assured that there are a lot of people who will consider you to have restricted their options for no good reason at all.
-
"real pilots didn't do that with their lives on the line, so I'm not going to let you."
I can see this now -- whenever you lose a major part of your plane, or receive a 'pilot wound', the FE automatically disengages you and sends you running for home, unless you press the 'HERO' button, which shuts off the automatic disengagement feature and doubles any perk points received, but prevents you from leaving a furball until there are no more enemy aircraft in con range, no matter what damage your aircraft receives -- and you forfeit all perk points if you bail, rather than riding the wreck down in flames. :D