Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Fester' on August 10, 2001, 06:49:00 PM
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thx htc!!!
(http://www.dogfighter.com/images/interviews/aceshigh/010810/ah-hurri-5.jpg)
(http://www.dogfighter.com/images/interviews/aceshigh/010810/ah-hurri-1.jpg)
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900 rounds of 20mm?
:D
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The 20mm equipped Hurricane? Hispanos?
I was under the impression that the hurricanes used during the BoB were equipped with .303's because they were more reliable?
If it's a quad hispano laser turning Ho bird, i ain't too sure whether I like it or not.
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RAF gets the oldest, slowest fighter in the game.
Luftwaffe gets the fastest, only jet jet fighter in the game.
Luftwaffles whine about RAF plane :(
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Some Niki drivers are in for a rude awakening.
ra
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LOL....he's kinda got ya on that one StSanta!
Just squeeze the wide arse into the 262 and bore those quad hispano's with hi-speed passes :)
Cobra
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StSanta, that wasn't meant as an attack on you. I've always found your posts to have been made in good humour. I'm just a bit anoyed after seeing the aircraft to expect in 1.08. Sorry to single you out.
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Wh00p! Don't see how you can have a WW2 flight sim without a Hurri. I'm very glad it's here. Does it have Cdn markings? :)
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Good god... if they give the Canucks a plane; I may have to quit!
Santa.. worry not... yer Jet will have 4 30's vs the kites 4 20's; and fly twice as fast.
The hurri is at a slight disadvantage vs the jet, but I'd still HO yer bellybutton in it. :)
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You can make many variants off that Hurri, too. It's a good choice, and those who wish for early war should rejoice. You can't have early war until you have early war planes. This is a step in that direction, even if it is the C this time.
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hurri only has 90 rounds per gun
karnak thinks they were just testing airframe on n1k2 fm
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(sorry... dang forum bug... gotta post here to fix)
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StSanta: the Hurricanes used in BoB were Mk I.
The Mk II was made as a fighter-bomber, since the Hurricane was obviously inferior in performance to German fighters.
It had a more powerful engine(Merlin XX), all-metal wings and the ability to carry 2x500lb bombs or 8x60lb rockets.
4 different gun packages were fitted to the Mk II:
a: 8x.303in
b: 12x.303in
c: 4x20mm(early ones had Oerlikon type cannon, later ones had the Hispano Mk I)
d: 2x40mm Vickers "S" cannon + 2x.303in(for aiming assistance)
It has a blistering top speed of 328mph at 18,000ft - and takes over 9 minutes to climb to 20,000ft.
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dont like to have another CHOG on the game. Let em make 2 entries on the game, the 12X .303 as non perked and the chogspanno armed one as a cheap perk.
If you thought chog was bad, wait till this slow, highly manouverable, dime-turning plane points and click kills you.
Gawd AH definetely is a double edged sword.
Me262? I like it. I can now see all the 500mph dweebs making pass after pass after pass on a zeke and ending up being bounced by a high alt p51/p47.. mwahahahahahha.
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A glass half empty kinda guy, enh?? ;)
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I can't believe it's being suggested that one of the most out of date planes, at the beginning of the war, be perked.
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Tac,
A quick comparison of the Hurricane MkIIc and F4U-1C, or, why not to perk the Hurricane:
Top Speed:
Hurricane MkIIc: 334mph at 21,000ft.
F4U-1C Corsair: 417mph at 20,000ft.
Speed at Sea Level:
Hurricane MkIIc: Less than 290mph
F4U-1C Corsair: 360mph
Climb Rate:
Hurricane MkIIc: 2,780 ft./Min.
F4U-1C Corsair: 3,100 ft./Min.
Roll Rate:
Hurricane MkIIc: Poor
F4U-1C Corsair: Very good
Acceleration:
Hurricane MkIIc: Very Poor
F4U-1C Corsair: Poor
Fuel Endurance:
Hurricane MkIIc: 460 miles on internal fuel
F4U-1C Corsair: 1,015 miles on internal fuel
Armament:
Hurricane MkIIc: 4 Hispano MkII cannon, 2 in each wing
F4U-1C Corsair: 4 Hispano MkII cannon, 2 in each wing
Ammunition Load:
Hurricane MkIIc: 364 rounds total, 91 rounds per gun
F4U-1C Corsair: 924 rounds total, 232 rounds per inboard gun and 230 rounds per outboard gun
Ordinance:
Hurricane MkIIc: 2 250lb bombs or 8 60lb rockets or 2 44 imp. gal. drop tanks
F4U-1C Corsair: 2 1000lb bombs and 4 60lb rockets or 150 gal. drop tanks in place of the bombs
Service Entry:
Hurricane MkIIc: 1941
F4U-1C Corsair: 1945
Still want to perk the Hurricane MkIIc?
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Sorry, but I'm so enthusaistic about getting the Hurricane, I just gotta...
First, to set the mood...
"Our Squadron escorted twelve Hurri-bombers to Dieppe this morning at first light. . . . We all flew at sea level the entire mission. We took them in through flak that cannot be described. When you are within 100 feet of those big guns firing, concussion tosses you about to a large degree. There were hundreds of planes screaming through the sky. Dozens of dog fights going on. Planes plummeting to earth on fire. Pilots who had been shot down were in their dinghies. I saw nine or ten Spitfires just shooting hell out of a Jerry Dornier. We fought off attacks on the Hurricanes, but four were shot down by the shore batteries. We were attacked twice more by Messerschmitt 109's as we crossed back out over the coast of France. I got strikes on a Messerschmitt 109, but I was flying about 50 feet off the water and couldn't maneuver to finish him off. Three of our Spitfires were so badly shot up they were out of the fight, but did manage to fly back to England." - from American Pilots in the RAF by Philip D. Caine
Then...
"For the final sortie of the day we were told that the convoy was withdrawing and the many gun batteries were the prime objective. I was flying my own Hurricane IIC BP707 and my Number 2 was Pilot Officer G. Dodson RAAF in a twelve gun IIB. As we crossed the coast to the west of Dieppe we were bounced by FW190s and forced to take violent evasive action which split the squadron into small sections. With my Number 2, I headed for some flashes on the edge of a wood to the south-west of Dieppe and saw a battery of field guns -- probably 88mm's. We flew a wide circuit to attack north to south across the guns and approached at maximum throttle -- Pilot Officer Dodson on my starboard side. We both had the satisfaction of seeing our cannon and machine-gun bullets detonating on the guns and scattering the gunners.
"It was too good to last -- the inevitable light flak appeared from the right and my Hurricane was mortally hit. Oil and glycol smoke poured from the engine which I was unable to nurse as the throttle linkage was shot away. I broke to the right heading for the coast and flew through the twelve guns firing from Pilot Officer Dodson's Hurricane. He had a perfect cine film to prove it. At high speed and at tree-top height I reached the coast where the engine died with a great thud. I eased the aircraft up to about 600 feet, shedding hood and right side panel on the way, bailing out as the stall approached. The jerk of my parachute opening was a relief but I was puzzled by the smoke under the canopy until I realised that tracer bullets were the cause. Within a few seconds I was in the sea about 500 yards from the cliffs. I got rid of my parachute harness and boots and set off for England with a steady side stroke, dragging my dinghy in its unopened pack and encouraged by the zipp of bullets in the sea around me." -- from The Greatest Air Battle : Dieppe, 19th August 1942 by Norman L.R. Franks
anRky
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we'll see what the masses do with yet another 4 hispano bird..one that will turn better even. I predict it will go the way of the chog, 50% fuel and HO bird and field defense.
I love the 12 X.303 option. Always wanted one. :)
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Im just worried about it being used as a HO machine.
The Hurricane was known to be durable and if so modeled will be very much used as HO type of plane as it doesnt do much very well except turn.
This IS NOT some LW vs Allied drama, everyone can fly all the planes.
All Im worried about is the HO thing, otherwise the Hurricane is an interesting addition.
I think it will do rather well considering the turn/furball nature of the MA.
As for Me262, who cares, it will be very expensive and will be flown very conservativly. Plus if its correctly modeled it will have terrible acceleration and relativly poor manuverability.
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1. If worried about the HO, don't accept the HO. You have a stick and rudders too.
2. HO's were not an unusual tactic; there is historical precedent. Will post an account of a -51 v -109 fite by the -51 pilot that is currently in Air Classics if you'd like. The -109 HO'd him several times.. but once too often. Nice short read, btw.
The Hurri isn't going to be the oft predicted end of the world either. Relax.
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PERK IT!!!
I was the first to say it :D
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Originally posted by Tac:
dont like to have another CHOG on the game. Let em make 2 entries on the game, the 12X .303 as non perked and the chogspanno armed one as a cheap perk.
If you thought chog was bad, wait till this slow, highly manouverable, dime-turning plane points and click kills you.
Gawd AH definetely is a double edged sword.
That has to be the dumbest idea tac. The Hurri is a very slow AC. If you are getting killed by it, then its your fault, change your style of flying.
[ 08-11-2001: Message edited by: -ammo- ]
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I'm going to HO in both the 262 and the hurricane. Fair warning.
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Tac,
Its got 90 rounds per gun. That is a whole Typhoon's ammo load less than the F4U-1C does.
Who would anyone spend perk points on an under ammoed death trap?
The 12 .303 version was despised by the RAF pilots. They removed the outer guns to get the manuverability back. 8, or even 12, .303s would be a joke in AH. You see a .303 aremed Hurricane less often than you see C.202s.
[ 08-11-2001: Message edited by: Karnak ]
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Why would you have to worry about the damn Hurricane pilots RUINING the game with Head-On attacks, when you can do the same thing RIGHT NOW in a Typhoon, with much more ammo?
Really, if you get killed by a damn Hurricane (I.E: A piece of junk with four big cannons) you are a toejamTY pilot.
You probably get killed by Il-2s all the time too?
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RAF gets the oldest, slowest fighter in the game. Luftwaffe gets the fastest, only jet jet fighter in the game.
Luftwaffles whine about RAF plane
Heh, ok I hear ya on the LWhiner bit. Let me say that this isn't a LW vs RAF issue for me. I'll try to explain.
Personally, I couldn't care a rat's arse about something that can go in a straight line very fast and will be quite disruptive to a buff or a fighter, in the unlikely event that it isn't spotted. I don't care for being untouchable. For me, it's action that counts. The 190A5 is more fun to me than the D9 because it forces me to use SA and ACM to get out of tight spots; in the D9 what I usually need to do is nose down and dive away.
The ME262 will be largely like the TA-152 I suspect. Hugely expensive, and the bang for the buck in terms of perk points will be rather limited. It'll be an annoyance for most, sort of like the occasional tempest is now, only it'll be rarer and not near as lethal (if you're in a fighter).
Now, it's known that the LW had the potential to have the Hispano cannon, but opted for something else. had the LW been given a slow fighter that could turn and had quad damage laser pods (i.e 4*hisp) I'd voice these exact concerns.
We know what happened with the tshjook. The tiffie was also quite popular til its roll rate got fixed, despite not being as lethal as the tshjook (I recall some threads on bullet dispersion or whatnot being the difference). The icon system we have gives an advantage to guns with great ballistics; with the range info there's little need to use a gunsight to estimate the distance to an enemy aircraft - it greatly aids long range shooting.
I think it's fair to say that the thsjook was popular for newbies because it was one of those planes newbies could actually kill in. In H's, those great Hispanos allowed them to open up at long ranges, and the hitting power means that usually 1-2 hits on a wingtip is enough (been there, tried it, will redo it and film if necessary :)). With 4 cannons, it's spewing out a veritable wall of AP/HE/I (all at once, in every bullet).
It's not just HO's. It's also the "break" followed by a very long range spray n pray shot and the *lethality* of such shots.
I'll manage it. I'll get annoyed from time to time but my current thinking of AH has given me a relaxed attitude towards these things in general :). I'm sure I'll write a whine or two after the heat of combat when the frustration has built up - most in here have a competitive nature.
Yet I have to say that the perking of the thsjook was one of the best moves by HTC I've seen - all of the sudden the D-hog gained life, and the price of the tshjook was cheap enough for anyone to earn one in one or two flights. And I *don't* wanna perk a 193x plane.
I guess what I'm saying is: 4*hisp turns most pilots into dweebs once they lay their hands on 'um. Myself included; in the special events where I've flown Spitfires, I've made good use of the dweeb tactics a Spit can use, and I earned a good number of kills that way :).
It's not my job to police how other people are flying and I won't do that. These are just my thoughts on the subject: right now I find AH very enjoyable, more so than when the chog was unperked, and I don't wanna have the same "oh no hispanos" dread again.
Thanks for info on the Hurricane II btw; didn't know it was a fighter-bomber. Am I correct in understanding from your posts that this one will be somewhat different in flight characteristics than the 12*303 model that was used vs fighters in the BoB?
Numbers wise, how many of these hurricanes were there compared to the other kind of Hurri's?
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From Complete Book of WWII Combat Aircraft:
3,100 Hurricane Mk.IIb (12 7.7mm Browning mgs)
3,400 Hurricane Mk.IIc (4 20mm Oerlikon/Hispano cannons)
800 Hurricane Mk.IId (4 40mm Vickers or Rolls-Royce cannons, plus 1 or 2 7.7mm mgs to facilitate the aim of the principal weapons)
I don't vouch for the validity of the data, just telling ya what the book says :)
SOB
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Wake up guys, I never said the plane was in equal or in good standing vs. the other planes. I just said it is a great turner WITH 4 hispano cannons. Just THINK about that for a second.
My grandpa flew the 12 X.303 in BOB and later on the spitfire, he still liked the Hurricane better. Im biased? Perhaps ;)
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"Im just worried about it being used as a HO machine."
So what. What makes this plane different? I see more than half the pilots I merge with go for the HO shot and it hasn't mattered if it was in the MA or the new CA. Simply put? Pilots HO. Planes don't ;)
THANKS anarky for that post! Reminds me a bit of Afrika'42 ;) Even though you were in a 109 in that ;)
Westy
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Time for a pre-emptive whine!
This Hurricane IIC better have all of it's:
BOMBS!
(http://www.aviation-history.com/hawker/hurrcne4.jpg)
ROCKETS!
(http://www.aviation-history.com/hawker/hurrcne2.jpg)
and
DROP TANKS!
(http://www.aviation-history.com/hawker/hurrcne3.jpg)
:D
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Thank you HTC for modelling my all time favourite WWII plane. Please ignore the anti-RAF whiners... it's only fair we get one correct modelled plane... and besides almost all future RAF planes will get perked...
It seems the Luftwabbles want planes that can't fire back... how about a Lysander eh? That easy enough target for ya? ;)
Regards
Nexx
PS No one going to spoil my 1 (F) Sqn Hurricane :)
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"2. HO's were not an unusual tactic; there is historical precedent. Will post an account of a -51 v -109 fite by the -51 pilot that is currently in Air Classics if you'd like. The -109 HO'd him several times.. but once too often. Nice short read, btw."
I don't have many references in the way of WW2 material, but I recently picked up the book _Fire In The Sky_ by Eric Bergerud and many of the pilots interviewed mention the use of HO's. Though the subject is the Southwest Pacific, it doesn't sound to me like this practice was disdained by the real wartime pilots in this theater and they were using real bullets.
I'll shoot you in the tail, belly, back or the face if I think I'll win. I do watch out for the HO though and sometimes will fire a quick burst to maybe get the other guy to duck or something or just delay his planned reaction a little bit. The thing I suffer from when doing the HO with my fast connection is that I'll never see someone fire at me, no tracers or nothing, and about a second after our two aircraft pass I'll hear the tearing of metal from my being shot on his FE. That is kinda aggravating but I have learned to adapt or accept it. Because of that and only that, I have become wary of the HO but do not condemn it.
I'd like to read about the account mentioned in the quotes above.
-Puke
332nd Flying Mongrels
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lol, that thing is a beast...
(http://www.aviation-history.com/hawker/hurrcne3.jpg)
I like it.
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ANYONE who would complain about having the Hurricane II in THIS game is an absolute popsicle :rolleyes:
PERKED???? ROFL!!! And then to have the nerve to hint that the "real" Hurricane is the Hurricane Mk I. What the hell would you do with a Hurri I in Aces High? A stand-up comedy routine?
Anyone besides a Zeke driver who gets killed by a Hurri II needs to seriously reexamine his ACM skills.
Of course there MAY be a few who see the intro of an "early" plane as the first volley in a battle that will eventually produce a Rolling Plane Set, and THAT would certainly upset a few applecarts around here ;)
But WTG HTC for putting it in the sim :) I may do that 2-week trial yet...
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Originally posted by jedi:
ANYONE who would complain about having the Hurricane II in THIS game is an absolute popsicle :rolleyes:
LOL! The best line of this entire thread! :D
SOB
[ 08-11-2001: Message edited by: SOB ]
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ah little grasshopper, you will see how wrong you are when thy holy hithpano returneth in quadforce & turny turny ability.
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I predict the Hurri will get eaten alive to be honest, even with the cannons. The SpitIX is the 2nd most popular plane in the game as far as I know- and the Spit outturned the Hurricane. The SpitIX is FASTER than the Hurricane. The Spitfire outROLLED the Hurricane. So basically, I suspect the Hurricane will be a neat plane that sees some usage for about 30 minutes, then everyone jumps back in their Spits.
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Just a "Fair Warning" going out to all of you that think the Hurrican II will be a easy kill. ;) And that if you really believe that if you get killed by a Hurricane II you need to evaluate your ACM skills, well im gonna make quite a few of you feel like you have no ACM skills. :D I guardantee that when I fly the Hurricane II, I will get many kills. Now for the more important part, I most likely will not fly it much since I prefer the F6F, F4U-D and -C, and the P38.
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I dunno about the Hurri as a Main Arena plane, but against 109Fs (and maybe 109Es some day) in the Combat Theatre it will be a blast to fly.
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The 109F4 has around 60mph better top speed, rolls better, climbs much better, dives better, and is only just outturned by the Hurricane.
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The 109F doesnt have 4 Hispanos.
Say whaterver you will about them but they are a great equalizer with their 600yard killing SNAPSHOTS.
The 109F will heve to fly very carefully to avoid that fire.
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"Say whaterver you will about them but they are a great equalizer with their 600yard killing SNAPSHOTS"
Thank you. That is my point.
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This is truly a great thread for it combines the whining of two camps. The hispano whiners and the Luftwhiners.
I see this thread as a Uniter, not a Divider.
We have Talc (a P-38 driver) and Groinhurtz (a waffle) whining together. Truly this is a momentous event.
One thing strikes me as abit odd though. Groinhurtz said a 109F would have trouble surviving against a Hurri. This I do not understand as we have all seen posted on this board (so it must be true) the superiority of the Waffle Iron pilot skills over the allied farm boys. How can any plane flown by inferiorer allied pilots be a threat to these supermen of the Pixel Sky?
The point....Quit your damn whining on this board and play the game! If you must whine about something as ridiculous as adding a Hispano Hurri to the game, then do it in barely audible tones into your RugRats pillow case at night. Then wake up and fly in the game with tear swollen eyes so the inferior farm boys can go 8th Air Force on your arse :)
Cobra
Wow, this de-caf isn't working...hehee
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Originally posted by Nashwan:
RAF gets the oldest, slowest fighter in the game. :(
Remember the F-4 vs. MiG-17 matchup in Vietnam? Slower, older MiG's vs. faster, newer Phantom II's? And the MiG-17's still wreaked havoc on the American planes with superior turning and superior guns? It may very well be the same situation in AH. So, before u RAF peeps start squeakin about the old, slow planes ur getting, remember their strangth: turning ability. And most of the LW planes cant turn too well. So ur gettin a five-finger discount.
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ROFL Cobra!
Ding, as a historical aside, check this page. Shows about 19 kills of F4's by MiG-17. Looks pretty good, but who knows for sure.
http://home.sprynet.com/~anneled/usloss.html (http://home.sprynet.com/~anneled/usloss.html)
...and from the History Channel
Air-to-Air Kill / Loss Ratio:
Service/ ( From 1965 to March 31,1968 )/ 1972 on
U.S. Navy/ 3.7 to 1 / 12.5 to 1
Air Force/ 3 to 1 / ~4 to 1
The ONLY thing the Hurri has going for it is the guns and only 90 rounds in those. It can't run away, it can't climb away, it can't dive away, it can't outroll very much at all. In short, it can't dictate the fight; therefore it's mostly a target, especially considering the rest of the current planeset.
What it can do is whack you hard if YOU make a mistake. It isn't going to rule the world; not even close.
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Toad is right. The Hurri and the Spits are good planes for begginers because they're easy to fly. It's very hard to get a kill against a good pilot in one though.
Look at the stats for the better pilots in AH, and you will find almost all of them do considerably better against the Spit IX than they do on average. If yopu're getting killed by the Spit too often, and if you think the Hurricane is a real threeat, it's your skills at fault, not the plane or even your opponent.
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Originally posted by Fatty:
I'm going to HO in both the 262 and the hurricane. Fair warning.
OH yes please HO me in ur 262 pretty please :). illl listen to perk points burn
as the 262 plumets burning to the ground. the 262 has short range 30mm, u go HO longer range 50s or hispanos? lol please
come HO with ur 262.
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nm
[ 08-12-2001: Message edited by: Staga ]
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<<<And the MiG-17's still wreaked havoc on the American planes with superior turning and superior guns?>>>
I think "wreaked havoc" is overstating things by a lot. The US had aerial superiority in the skies over NVN and the MiGs were never really able to turn back the strikes. Sure, the MiGs had some holding patterns where they were vectored for sneak attacks when able and at times were successful. However, many times the MiGs were hurt badly only to stand down and think about new tactics, but in general, any time they came up in force the MiGs were dealt with. Yes, they were a threat, but they never "wreaked havoc."
-Puke
332nd Flying Mongrels
Sorry to take this off topic. I could've gone on-and-on about it but refrained.
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Don't worry whels, I got the points to spare :)
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Actually, the folks saying the Hizookas are the great equalizers are telling the truth. It isn't very tough to look up the stats on the F4U-1C and the F4U-1D. Look up the stats on it, I'm to lazy to. Same plane, it handles the same, etc. Only difference is the 4 Hizookas vs the 6 .50s. I know in my case, I'm usually at least 2 to 1 in K/D against the D version, but against the C I'm lucky to get 1 to 2. Wonder why that is?
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Well, I guess its only OK if the RAF planeset gets things without Hispanos. Given that the Hispano is the main RAF fighter gun of WWII I guess the RAF should only have Hurricane Is, Hurricane IIas, Hurricane IIbs, Spitfire Ias, Spitfire IIas, Spitfire Vas, Defiant Is, Defiant IIs and Typhoon Ias.
That would solve the mythical 600 yard snapshot problem. Hell, it'd solve the "RAF planes can shoot anything down" problem too.
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Oh, the Hurricane II. That brings back some fond memories of Warbirds H2H :)
Clearly it's going to be unbalancing though.
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My word!
How many of you hypocrites in here will admit you are simultaneously against anything with Hispanos but FOR the Me262?
One-on-one just about anything can beat a Hurricane (short of a C47). Do you know what planes like the La7 and G10 will do to it? How can you guys wring your hands in such angst?
So it turns, big deal. Zeros turn, too. Zeros die in all but the most capable hands. Hurricanes will die. The ammo is lethal but little and will be gone in a snuff (though the smarter guys will only use one bank at a time).
A Hurri caught in a fight is in big trouble once the numbers begin to go against it. There will be no escape from pilots that have the slightest clue about how to stay above it.
All the speculation is subjective 'til we have it, but I cannot imagine how people who don't fear the Spit will have any trepidation over a Hurri.
[ 08-12-2001: Message edited by: Kieran ]
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double post
[ 08-12-2001: Message edited by: Kieran ]
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Originally posted by Toad:
Ding, as a historical aside, check this page. Shows about 19 kills of F4's by MiG-17. Looks pretty good, but who knows for sure.
http://home.sprynet.com/~anneled/usloss.html (http://home.sprynet.com/~anneled/usloss.html)
...and from the History Channel
Air-to-Air Kill / Loss Ratio:
Service/ ( From 1965 to March 31,1968 )/ 1972 on
U.S. Navy/ 3.7 to 1 / 12.5 to 1
Air Force/ 3 to 1 / ~4 to 1
The ONLY thing the Hurri has going for it is the guns and only 90 rounds in those. It can't run away, it can't climb away, it can't dive away, it can't outroll very much at all. In short, it can't dictate the fight; therefore it's mostly a target, especially considering the rest of the current planeset.
What it can do is whack you hard if YOU make a mistake. It isn't going to rule the world; not even close.
Americans had good training in Vietnam. Vietnamese didn't. Hell, in a bird w/ Hispanos that can turn and HO great, it don't take no stinkin brains or ACM to get a kill. Point and shoot. Simple as that. And if u RAF fans think it's so bad, then y do u want it in the first place??!!
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Ding-
Put up your list of what you think your side needs and what the RAF needs.
Compare the list. Compare the year of entrance for all the equipment. Compare the performance specs. Do they even remotely match up?
The RAF want the Hurri because it represents one of the most important and prolific fighters for the RAF. It was a plane used in every theatre and every possible role for a single-engined fighter. Its contribution and impact on the war is immense. There is no denying a Hurricane in any sim that prides itself in WWII orientation. It is definitely not because it outperforms anything beyond 1939-40.
The Hurri can't HO you if you don't put yourself where he can do it to you. You can so easily stay above its head and pick your moment I can't see how you might think otherwise. No ACM skill required? hehe, that's funny. The Hurricane pilot better be very skilled in ACM, because the cards are stacked heavily against it.
Ding, are you for the 262 by any chance? How do you justify it BTW? (Sorry Karnak, just have to make the point.)
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Hell, in a bird w/ Hispanos that can turn and HO great, it don't take no stinkin brains or ACM to get a kill. Point and shoot.
I'm sorry, but you are in severe danger of talking out of your backside. ;) The hurricane turns 'great'?. Compared to what exactly?
Meanwhile, the sensible adversary extends (in just about anything), while gaining height most probably and then returns at a height from which he dictate the battle. It will be toast in the MA.
Matched against an historical planeset, however, I'm sure it will fair much better. Which I guess is the reason why it has been included.
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Sorry, Ding, I'm not following your logic here.
1st post:
"Remember the F-4 vs. MiG-17 matchup in Vietnam? Slower, older MiG's vs. faster, newer Phantom II's? And the MiG-17's still wreaked havoc on the American planes with superior turning and superior guns?"
(Interject kill ratios showing that the US had at least a 3/1 K/D that improved significantly after guns were added to F-4's and "top gun" type training implemented.)
"2nd post: Americans had good training in Vietnam. Vietnamese didn't. "
So did the MiG 17's wreak havoc or not? Stats don't seem to support your hypothesis.
The Hurri: No way you can class this as Uber. It's mediocre or LESS in every area but guns. It's multiple weaknesses are well known, it's single strength also well known. Fight it accordingly, as you would with any other aircraft.
Bottom line: Like all other aircraft, if you die to the Hurri, it'll be because YOU made a mistake.
[ 08-12-2001: Message edited by: Toad ]
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Sorry about not being clear in what i meant. I meant that the Vietnamese were very effective against the Americans for the training that they recieved. I believe that, had it not been for the superior turning ability and gun superiority, then the Vietnamese would probably been caught in a turkey shoot. This proves that, despite all the facts, a plane w/ superior turning ability and gun armament will be more effective than any fast, poorly-gun armed plane. The difference in training between the Americans and the Vietnamese probably was the reason why the Americans had a higher k/d ratio over the NVAF. If, however, the Vietnamese had recieved training equal to the US, then they would have easily had a higher k/d ratio than the Americans.
And what do I think the RAF should have? What they need, isn't another fighter now (especially considering how far ahead of everyone else they were when they introduced the Spit Mk. IX). To be more specific, I would say the RAF actually needs the following:
A tank buster: Hurricane Mk. IID (2x40 mm's), not IIC.
A jabo: Mosquito Mk. VI
A medium bomber: Wellington, or Stirling (sp?)
And what do I think the LW needs? A little different than the RAF needs. Read the following:
A tank buster: Ju-87G (2x37 mm's)
A jabo: Me-410 B-2 or B-1
A heavy bomber: He-177 A-5, Ju-188, Ju-290, or Do-217
(I also would propose taking away the German CV and adding the Fritz-X or Hs-293 to their weapon options, to be loaded on a German heavy bomber, which will even out the HA.)
Thank you for listening, and I hope that I have clarified a bit more for you.
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And what do I think the RAF should have? What they need, isn't another fighter now (especially considering how far ahead of everyone else they were when they introduced the Spit Mk. IX).
While I might agree with the thought they don't need another fighter (not sure, though) I can't agree with the reasoning. If you can't outturn the Spit you run or climb away with the current AH set. It is a good fighter, but not really the best in any category by any means. To make this worse, aren't you the one lobbying for the removal of perk points on the Ta-152? Are you saying the Germans need yet another ultra-fighter free for use, yet you are going to deny the RAF a Hurricane?
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Originally posted by Ding_Hao:
(especially considering how far ahead of everyone else they were when they introduced the Spit Mk. IX).
:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:
When the 1942 Spitfire F.IX was introduced, at the start of AH, the P-51D, Bf109G-10 and N1K2-J were also introduced.
How does the Spitfire F.IX qualify as so far ahead of those fighters, especially when the FM in 1.00 to 1.03 had an error that penalized turning unrealisticly?
A good pilot in any of the aircraft I mentioned, save the N1K2-J, will hand a Spitfire F.IX its bellybutton 9 times out of 10.
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No Kieran, that would be ME that is really pressing for the perk cost to be looked at on the Ta-152. As far as "ultra-fighter"- I guess you've never flown it. Also, I have no problem with the Hurricane being in AH, either the guns will carry it or it will be a flop. I sorta think it will be a flop even WITH the guns, but I'll fly it if nobody else does- sort of like what I do with the Ta-152.
Also, Karnak- I disagree with the statement that a good pilot in a 109G10 or a P51D is going to have a Spitfire for lunch. I persume you mean that it the pilots are of equal skill, in which case I firmly believe it would end up as a draw. The Spitfire wouldn't be able to KILL the G10 or the 51, but they would not be able to get a clean shot at him either. At best it would be a stalemate, at worst it would end up as a series of headon passes. The spit would have an edge on the 109 in that case, but the P51 would have an edge on the Spit (especially since Spits seem to fall apart under .50 fire, or so I hear).
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Well, Ding, then we disagree.
At the beginning of the Air War over the North, USAF and USN really hadn't really been teaching gunfighting for a long time. The Phantoms didn't even HAVE a gun. It was all going to be missile combat.
I think you can presume that the -17 and -19 drivers were practicing gunfighting, albeit in the Soviet method.
So you've got guys trained primarily in missile combat, most CAP planes without guns at all fighting guys in agile gun-equipped fighters with pilots presumably trained in their own tactics.
Even under THOSE conditions the US forces maintained a 3/1 K/D.
When the US forces realized the problem and institued gunfighting training, the K/D went up (dramatically in the case of the USN).
I still don't think your hypothesis holds up.
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Been doing a little research...
I can't find anything that says the Mk IIC had rockets(seems the Mk IV was the first), so I guess it's down to bombs(2x250lb or 500lb) and 44 gallon drop tanks for ordinance options.
Top speeds, clean
260mph at s/l
279mph at 5k
290mph at 10k
302mph at 15k
329mph at 17.8k
328mph at 20k
321mph at 25k
300mph at 30k
Climbrate at altitude
2780fpm at s/l
2430fpm at 5k
2080fpm at 10k
1670fpm at 15k
1490fpm at 20k
1170fpm at 25k
680fpm at 30k
2x250lb bombs cuts speed by about 50mph, and climbrate by about 500fpm.
Empty weight: 5658lbs
Loaded weight: 7544lbs
Wing Area: 258ft^2
Engine: Merlin XX; 1260HP at 10,750ft, 1160HP at 20,750ft.
Armament: 4x20mm cannon, Oerlikon or Hispano(AH Hurricane model appears to have Hispanos) with 91 r.p.g.
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Only problem, Urchin, is that Ding started the thread, ergo he must support eliminating the perk price. Granted you have advocated it more forcefully, but his name is on the header (unless my fe is screwing up the BBS here).
I have flown the Ta152. I got kills in it. Seemed easy enough. When I wanted to scram I did. When I wanted to fight I did. You may not realize it, but that is the deciding power in these planes- to be able to choose the terms of the fight.
A Spit pilot can no more determine the terms of a fight against a 51 or G10 than a Zero can against an F4U. In either case the fast plane wins with pilots of equal ability. The fast plane gets to choose when the fight starts and ends. You can keep corraling the Spit until he runs out of fuel (small gas tank) or ammo (small clip). He cannot run. He cannot climb. He has to react to everything the other guy does to stay alive. He has to guess what the other guy is trying to set up. He has to hope for a lucky break or a snapshot. All things equal at the merge, the Spit is already losing.
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<<<I meant that the Vietnamese were very effective against the Americans for the training that they recieved. I believe that, had it not been for the superior turning ability and gun superiority, then the Vietnamese would probably been caught in a turkey shoot. This proves that, despite all the facts, a plane w/ superior turning ability and gun armament will be more effective than any fast, poorly-gun armed plane. The difference in training between the Americans and the Vietnamese probably was the reason why the Americans had a higher k/d ratio over the NVAF. If, however, the Vietnamese had recieved training equal to the US, then they would have easily had a higher k/d ratio than the Americans.>>>
Sorry people, I cannot leave this alone considering it's a topic dear to my heart. I think comparing the Air Battles over Vietnam to the Hurricane IIc in the MA is completely ludicrous.
I don't have exact numbers available but I'm guessing the NVAF only scored about 80-90 air-air kills during the periods of about mid-1965 through March-1968 and about May-1972 to Jan-1973. Roughly, let's call that 40 months or 1,200 days. Roughly and on average, one kill every 13 days is not that impressive and not indicative of great air-battles going on. Do you know how many USA aircraft were entering NVN in those 13 days it took on average for the NVAF to get a kill? It was quite a target rich environment for the MiGs. Do you know what ratio of USA aircraft over NVN were fighters? Though this varied, for a Rolling Thunder Alpha let's just assume about eight escort fighters which probably had them underdogs at times. You define the NVAF kill numbers as effective? In general, the NVAF only attacked when the situation was to their advantage otherwise they would run to their sanctuaries to prevent their aircraft from being destroyed. And really, for much of Rolling Thunder the USA was at a disadvantage over NVN in terms of radar coverage. Since the NVAF would attempt to engage only when at an advantage or vs. straggling and damaged aircraft, the USA's favorable victory ratio is actually quite impressive. There is just way too much involved in this subject to go into here but don't make such simple judgements and comparisons.
I respect the NVAF and USA pilots for all they had to face. Just give up this silly comparison between the Hurricane IIc in the MA and the MiG-17 vs USA aircraft in the Vietnam War. It's apples and oranges. Your leaps to conclusions are incredulous and I find insulting to my personal respect for those pilots who engaged in that war.
<<<This proves that, despite all the facts...>>>
Heh heh. I won't even comment.
-Puke
332nd Flying Mongrels
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Originally posted by Kieran:
Only problem, Urchin, is that Ding started the thread, ergo he must support eliminating the perk price. Granted you have advocated it more forcefully, but his name is on the header (unless my fe is screwing up the BBS here).
Oh, undoubtedly he supports it. My apoligies, I thought you were trying to badmouth him but got him confused with me.
I have flown the Ta152. I got kills in it. Seemed easy enough. When I wanted to scram I did. When I wanted to fight I did. You may not realize it, but that is the deciding power in these planes- to be able to choose the terms of the fight.
This really is a reply to this and to what follows below. However, I'll limit my reply to the Ta-152 for right now. The ONLY place the Ta-152 can "dictate" a fight is at 30k+. I've seen maybe 10 planes at that altitude in 4 months. Below 30k, it is a DECENT airplane, but definately not outstanding. Below 10k, where 99.5% of the fights take place at in the MA, it is definately a poor choice. The 109G10 and the 190D9 are both much better airplanes below 10k. Furthermore, those two planes are probably number 7 and 8 or so in my "top 10" picks for effective planes at the MA altitude (below 10k). Below 10k, a Ta-152 pilot cannot "dictate" terms to any of the following planes : LA7,Yak9U, P51D,P51B,109G10,190D9. Undoubtedly there are more planes than that which can "dictate" terms to the Ta-152 (which by your definition is merely by being faster). I'll leave it at that for now, as this is a Hurricane thread and not the Ta-152 thread.
A Spit pilot can no more determine the terms of a fight against a 51 or G10 than a Zero can against an F4U. In either case the fast plane wins with pilots of equal ability. The fast plane gets to choose when the fight starts and ends. You can keep corraling the Spit until he runs out of fuel (small gas tank) or ammo (small clip). He cannot run. He cannot climb. He has to react to everything the other guy does to stay alive. He has to guess what the other guy is trying to set up. He has to hope for a lucky break or a snapshot. All things equal at the merge, the Spit is already losing.
I respectfully disagree with you here. By being careful with your energy, a Spit CAN climb even with a BnZ fighter making passes every so often. Plus, it only takes one mistake by the BnZ pilot (or a good move by the Spit pilot) and the Spit will be able to get a kill (assuming he is in a position to make the shot, and actually DOES make the shot). I'd be happy to "test" this theory in the DA or TA if you care to. I've no problem with being the Spit and letting you "bounce" me as it were.
Edit was because I was having trouble getting the qoutes in bold and my response in normal.
[ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]
[ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]
[ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]
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A. The Ta152 is designed as a high-altitude fighter. By staying where it is designed to fly you can indeed dictate the fight on your terms every single time (unless of course you meet another Ta152).
B. Of course the Spit can climb with a Mustang. What it can't do is zoom with it or simply follow it if the Mustang decides to leave. In the case of the G10, the Spit can't climb or follow.
See, the point in both cases is you have the choice to engage or not. Sure you can put yourself in a situation where you can't escape and must fight your way out, but you don't have to. The Spit pilot pretty much has to duke it out with anyone that choses to fight it. It is well equipped for the fight (to a point), but is ill equipped to pursue.
That is where your arguement for unperking the Ta152 falls apart. You claim it is too easy to kill, therefore it should be unperked. I say it is easy to live in, and assuming you leave it where it was designed to fly, is pretty much untouchable unless you choose to be touched. Your more effective argument is to reduce the perk simply because people aren't using it- forget the "it isn't that good of a plane" tac, 'cause it is.
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havent read all the posts but most.heres my take...
Welcome hurricane!!!
cannons? well the nik has the same sort of set up and so did the chog.I can imagine the hurricane will go for the HO more, as do the other 2, but with its extreme lack of speed is it really going to be a problem? I dont think it will and im sure now that if it does HTC will do something about it.Dont worry just enjoy what is a lovely looking aircraft.Wtg superfly etc.
Welcome Me262!!!!
I wont use it much in MA but i just had to be able to fly this aircraft in AH's fantastic FM.AH is the only flight sim ive ever used for longer than a few weeks or months.It was my first ever online sim and the first game ive ever payed to play online.
says a lot doesnt it :D.Im really looking forward to hi speed slashing attacks on those strato buffs mwahahhaa.
WTG again HTC in listening to what customers want.
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thanks for both AC HTC !!!
jets to take care of those strato-buffs
(can you imagine a jet sweep against buffs)
and the hurri will add greatly to historical setups..
WTFG!!!
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Originally posted by Kieran:
A. The Ta152 is designed as a high-altitude fighter. By staying where it is designed to fly you can indeed dictate the fight on your terms every single time (unless of course you meet another Ta152).
B. Of course the Spit can climb with a Mustang. What it can't do is zoom with it or simply follow it if the Mustang decides to leave. In the case of the G10, the Spit can't climb or follow.
See, the point in both cases is you have the choice to engage or not. Sure you can put yourself in a situation where you can't escape and must fight your way out, but you don't have to. The Spit pilot pretty much has to duke it out with anyone that choses to fight it. It is well equipped for the fight (to a point), but is ill equipped to pursue.
That is where your arguement for unperking the Ta152 falls apart. You claim it is too easy to kill, therefore it should be unperked. I say it is easy to live in, and assuming you leave it where it was designed to fly, is pretty much untouchable unless you choose to be touched. Your more effective argument is to reduce the perk simply because people aren't using it- forget the "it isn't that good of a plane" tac, 'cause it is.
You are absolutely correct. If you fly the Ta-152 as it was meant to be flown, you head up to 40k to circle and wait for the enemy formation of bombers so that you can be vectored into them. Oh wait. In Aces High even the BUFFS don't fly above 30k, and the fighters don't normally make it above 10k. So in Aces High, flying the plane as it was meant to be flown isnt really an option, as I see it. So, that renders the Ta-152 in Aces High pretty much useless. HTC should just remove the guns and call it a reconaissence plane, maybe some people would be fooled into using perks on it then.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Ok, now you have changed your argument on me. You argued before that the Spitfire would lose in a fight to a well flown P51D or a wellflown 109G10. I guess you believe that is no longer the case, because now you are saying that the Spitfire can't catch up to the Mustang or 109 after it gets on their tail. Well, golly, thats just to damn bad. You didn't get shot down, that is a victory in itself when you get bounced. A DRAW is totally different than a DEFEAT.
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I'm confused....
Is this a thread about Puftwhiners whining about the Hurri or about Puftwhiners whining about the perk costs of the TA-152?
Urchin, please, for the love of all that's holy, quietly cry into your Herman Goerring (sp?) nighties. You know, the ones that say "Ich ben ien Jelly Donut".
Cobra
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Ok, now you have changed your argument on me. You argued before that the Spitfire would lose in a fight to a well flown P51D or a wellflown 109G10. I guess you believe that is no longer the case, because now you are saying that the Spitfire can't catch up to the Mustang or 109 after it gets on their tail. Well, golly, thats just to damn bad. You didn't get shot down, that is a victory in itself when you get bounced. A DRAW is totally different than a DEFEAT.
Wow. What I have said is that a Mustang or a G10 can dictate the fight. A well-flown G10 or Mustang owns the Spit. *Let me clarify this point for you* The Spit cannot catch the G10 or Mustang as they extend, ready to return when the advantage is theirs! It isn't a draw.
Focus on the whole picture, not just the little pieces.
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I try to clear up what i meant and I get squeaking and moaning. Ok. The comparison to the Hurricane in WWII and Vietnam? It was faster and newer planes (think F-4 and G-10: both faster and newer planes at the time they saw action) vs. older, slower, and more maneuverable planes (think MiG-17 and Hurricane IIC). And the NVAF was quite effective for the amount of training they recieved--not much. And the Phantom II's just had to get visual confirmation of the target, then zoom away and fire their Sparrows @ standoff range @ the same radar contact. But they didn't. They were forced into low and slow dogfighting. So the old slower planes (MiG-17, Hurricane IIC) dictated the fight against the newer, faster planes (F-4, G-10). If a Phantom II couldn't dictate the fight, then how is a G-10 ALWAYS going to do the same? It guzzles fuel. It's got a pathetic ammo loadout. It's got less effective ordinance than most HO and B&Z planes (and don't try to dumb down the effectiveness of those Hispanos).
And I do want the Ta-152 perk price lowered or eliminated, since it only starts to show up @ 30k+ (and it still isn't going to pull more than 5.5 G's. And if u don't think u'll win against one @ 30k, then why'd u climb up there anyway, if u think he'll kill u? Why do I think the RAF doesn't need another fighter? They already got the 2nd most popular bird. They need effort put into the roles that aren't covered.
The bottom line:
Always try to force your adversaries to fight on YOUR terms, not on his terms.
Please don't squeak and moan: I'm expressing my opinion, just as the RAF fans express their opinions why they want the Spit Mk. XIV/Mk. 9LF.
Thank you very much.
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Guys that criticize....what fun!
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Ding, your Phantom/MiG analogy just doesn't compare. I perfectly understand what you are saying, but perfectly disagree.
This is the MA, not Viet Nam. MA pilots can choose to leave the fight if the odds get tough, more so than pilots could in VN. What's more, your assumption that just because (in your opinion) the Phantom couldn't cope with the MiG's it would be the same with the Hurri is just inconclusive at best.
The faster plane dictates the fight because the faster plane can leave. If you try to run, the faster plane will catch you.
dic·tate (dktt, dk-tt)
v. dic·tat·ed, dic·tat·ing, dic·tates
v. tr.
1. To say or read aloud to be recorded or written by another: dictate a letter.
2.
a) To prescribe with authority; impose: dictated the rules of the game.
b) to control or command: “Foreign leaders were... dictated by their own circumstances, bound by the universal imperatives of politics” Doris Kearns Goodwin).
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Originally posted by Kieran:
Wow. What I have said is that a Mustang or a G10 can dictate the fight. A well-flown G10 or Mustang owns the Spit. *Let me clarify this point for you* The Spit cannot catch the G10 or Mustang as they extend, ready to return when the advantage is theirs! It isn't a draw.
Focus on the whole picture, not just the little pieces.
And when they return to bounce the Spit again, the same thing happens. I.E. a Draw. Unless the G10 or P51D is going to follow the Spitfire home when it goes to land, a good spitfire pilot should never be shot down by a 109G10 or a P51 . To take a quote from you, I understand what you are saying perfectly, I just perfectly disagree ;-).
Thats also why I think the Hurri will be dogmeat in the MA. Both the Niki and the Spit can outrun it, and the Spit and maybe the Niki can outturn it. Hence, the poor hurricane will have nothing to do if a Spit bounces it.
[ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]
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We'll just see who's right in v1.08. We'll just see.
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I personally don`t see what all the fuss is about...I HO in practically *every* plane i fly-& usually get shot down doing it.....(g)
...but *any* new plane to play with in AH is very welcome in my book.
...Now ...Where`s my Mossie??... :p
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As I said before...We will see who's really right...We will see...
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Oh, if you mean there will be whines about HO'ing Hurricanes, I agree.
We don't have the planes yet, and the whining is already here. ;)
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Again: w/ the arrival of 1.08, we shall see...
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Originally posted by Ding_Hao:
[QB]I try to clear up what i meant and I get squeaking and moaning. Ok. The comparison to the Hurricane in WWII and Vietnam? It was faster and newer planes (think F-4 and G-10: both faster and newer planes at the time they saw action) vs. older, slower, and more maneuverable planes (think MiG-17 and Hurricane IIC). And the NVAF was quite effective for the amount of training they recieved--not much. And the Phantom II's just had to get visual confirmation of the target, then zoom away and fire their Sparrows @ standoff range @ the same radar contact. But they didn't. They were forced into low and slow dogfighting. So the old slower planes (MiG-17, Hurricane IIC) dictated the fight against the newer, faster planes (F-4, G-10). If a Phantom II couldn't dictate the fight, then how is a G-10 ALWAYS going to do the same? QB]
Oh my, the cliches and lack of facts:
- On the training statement, regarding dogfighting the NVAF had an overwelming advantage, the MIG drivers were taught dogfighting skills to some extent. The US pilots only learned intercept skills, don't forget that the initial role of the phantom was to intercept USSR bombers in a nuclear war and its pilots were trained for just that. So in fact the vietnamese had the training advantage, no wonder they were quite effective in relation to their training, LOL.
- On the statement that the F4's were forced into low, slow fights: Early in the war many US pilots tried to turn with the MIG's because its instinctive, unless you have been taught proper energy fighting. When the US pilots started to use the phantom's power in the vertical and its accelleration the MiG's never had a chance. Even without cannons the energy tactic always worked when properly executed. Basic knowledge: unless used with total ignorance the faster, more powerful fighter always dictates the fight. Especially when the speed/power margin is so blatant as in the F-4/MiG-17 match-up.
Than on the Hurri (S! Finally), in the desert war the Hurri II had a very diffcult time against the 109-F's because usually it could not get its four guns to bear on the enemy. Same will be the case in AH. Even in Hist. scenarios it will take a lot of skill to survive in the hurri.
Thud out
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Basic knowledge: unless used with total ignorance the faster, more powerful fighter always dictates the fight.
Amen, Brother. ;)
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<yawn>
nice hurricane by the way
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Survivable or not, the Hurricane is a welcome addition in my eyes: another new plane with its own distinctive traits. I have never liked them much. I always found Spitfires more pleasing to the eye with higher performance to boot. But, they are as important, if not more, than the Spitfire in the British air war efforts in WWII. Anybody who screamed for the Il-2 should be supporting those happy to see the Hurricane based on its historical significance and potential entertainment value in scenarios and arenas.
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Amen, Brother!