Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Dream on August 15, 2002, 01:42:29 PM
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Anybody now - turn performance american & german fighters (WW2, of course)?
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Wow, that's a braod question...any particular planes you want compared?
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I was talking to my 73 year old friend. He sead that the Dora could SUSTAINED out turn his pony. But what can you do.
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Originally posted by Viper17
I was talking to my 73 year old friend. He sead that the Dora could SUSTAINED out turn his pony. But what can you do.
Er, if your friend was flying Mustangs in 1945, he would have been the only 16 year-old combat fighter pilot in the USAAF.
(73-57=16)
Check your leg for finger prints. ;)
Just an observation......
My regards,
Widewing
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Yowzers! Hoisted by his own petard!
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Yowzers! Hoisted by his own petard!
This just made my day... that's some funny toejam!
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lying about age to get in the armed forces was not unheard of - for a 15 year old to get away w/ it (assuming he had a year's training) is a bit of a stretch - anyone know who was the youngest ace?
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Originally posted by Viper17
But what can you do.
hmm.. any plane. I already see many data - speed, climb, but not turn. May be have some good links?
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Dream, in very very vague generality:
USN planes turn better than most LW planes
LW planes turn better than most USAAF planes
..
that's basically all we can give you unless you be more specific.
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Almost impossible to answer for the reasons already stated - but the sharpest turner in the LW planeset is the ME109 F4.
I'm not as sure about the USAAF models, but my observation have been that with low fuel the FM2 can outturn any LW plane. Other sharp-ish turners include the F6F and the P38 (if the pilot understands how to use flaps).
Generally, both Planesets are better used for BnZ than TnB dogfights. If you want to learn turnfighting use British and Japanese fighters.
- Seagoon
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off topic a litle jsut please tell me why the typhon turn so well ? is it realy heavy figter and roll and turn litle to wll not tu much but anyway ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
in AH mean in real life the thing prefered to not turn at all specialy when below 240 mph !
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whine alert!!!!
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beter shut up and sort some arguments !!!!
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Does Tiffy turn well? naaaa. Well, maybe better than some 190's and p47's and even 109G10, can't think of any other monoplanes that it out turns.
Although the tiffy is heavy, it has far from the heaviest wingloadings, and a LOT of power to go with it, so that might be something to explain some. And although the wing is thick, thickness is not all bad....
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>>Yowzers! Hoisted by his own petard!<<
Oooh! That soundz dirty ;)
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Tiffie does not turn well. It must be kept fast and must rely on roll and verticle turns eg. yo-yo's in order to change direction quickly. The decent Tiffie users I have seen in the MA will use it this way to bring their 4 cannon to bear in an HO situation. If you see a Tiffie pilit make these moves as you chase him, better climb up and away and use the same verticle turns to regain the advantage; if not you will be back in yer HQ pissing about being HO'd.
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Tiffie does not turn well. It must be kept fast and must rely on roll and verticle turns
roll....what roll on a typhie? It rolls about as well as the locomotives and CV's in AH
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>>roll....what roll on a typhie? It rolls about as well as the locomotives and CV's in AH<<
Every plane can roll, its just that a Tiffie can't roll as well as most maybe ;) But in a vertical turn it don't have to roll that fast to change direction. The point is, when it does, the opposing fella better not be heading directly for it.
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Every plane can roll, its just that a Tiffie can't roll as well as most maybe
Sorry the previous was my attempt at humor. Of course all planes can roll, I've just never heard someone that thinks the roll rate on a tiffie is one of its strengths
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I'm pretty sure the Tiffie can't out-turn any of the 109s. It probably turns somewhere around a 190A5 (which is to say it is a surprisingly manueverable brick, but a brick nonetheless).
I'd rank the planes like this as far as turning (and I'll probably forget some, so forgive me).
FM-2
F4F-4
109-E4/F6F-5 (with flaps)
P-38 (with flaps)
109-F4
109-G2
P-40B(haven't had much experience with the P-40s though)
From here it really gets subjective... suffice to say that I think any of the planes in the above list will out-turn any of the plane in the bottom list.
P-40E (maybe? No experience with it really)
109-G6
109-G10
P-51 (B and D, I've not noticed much difference)
110-C4
190-A5
P-47D-11
110-G2
P-47D-25/P-47D-30
190-D9/190-A8/190-F8
Did I forget any? Thats quite a number of planes now...
Keep in mind that this is coming from a LW perspective, I've flown every plane on this list, just not extensively.
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Urchin:
Noticeably absent from your list are any of the Japanese planes. I also realize you are restricting your list to the European planeset.
The FM2 however, was used principally against the Japanese Zero and was outclassed in spite of its low speed turning abilities.
I am sure tho that you have read the accounts of how the Navy and Marine flyers used the FM2 versus the zero ie. E tactics rather than TnB.
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Yes, I'm aware that in the Pacific the USAAF and USN fighters were not turning with the Japanese. The original poster only asked for US vs German planes though, thats why I left everything else out.
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Feeling good are we ammo? can't differ a whine from a question?
The tiffie turns surprisingly well, as Urchin said, it turns about the same as a 190 A5 (tiffie turns a little bit better). Mostly dependant on fuel and ammo load when the 2 meet, then again, 190 A5 can make 10 full rolls in the time the tiffie takes to change from going right to left ;) (ok, not quite...).
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anyone know if the P-38s turn ability can be increased using differential throttle (i.e cut the gas on the inboard engine a bit)...haven't done the experiment yet myself...
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Doubt it, all that should add IMO is roll rate to one side.
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Urchin, didn't you forget the F6F?
Also, I'd put the 110C further up on the list, I've seen that thing turned so well that I had troubles shooting it in my Spitfire! If I remember right, I needed some 6 - 8 circles to catch it in my Spit1!
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110 has got a very nice turn performance and a relitivly low wing loading, the G turns quite well too but they both suck in the vertical.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Feeling good are we ammo? can't differ a whine from a question?
The tiffie turns surprisingly well, as Urchin said, it turns about the same as a 190 A5 (tiffie turns a little bit better).
...and also has a surprising acceleration. A quite competent fighter in AH, on the contrary that in the ww 2, where it was only good as jabo.
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CC that Dark, very good acceleration and OK climb rate, very high deck speed makes it one of the most potent air to air fighters in the game IMO.
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Originally posted by minus
off topic a litle jsut please tell me why the typhon turn so well ? is it realy heavy figter and roll and turn litle to wll not tu much but anyway ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
in AH mean in real life the thing prefered to not turn at all specialy when below 240 mph !
I'm sorry, what was that?
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the Typhoon wasn't used much as a fight in WWII, that does not mean it wasn't a good fighter, just that it wasn't used as such. it may mean that it was needed more as a Jabo, or that it was out classed by the Spit, or that it didn't have the range to carry out the most common fighter task of the Tiffy's time: bomber escort
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AFAIK the tiffie had good success against the 190 when it was used for hit and run raids against the UK.
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Oh that was definately a whine. There is no doubt about it. It doidnt add anything good to the topic and was released with much emotion, signified by the eccessive punctuation. Plus the whiner is well skilled in this art, and he uses a super secret code to add ambiance to his whines.
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Ammo, you are such a tard :p. But yes, it seemed like a 'whine' to me to if we have to classify it.
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Whgates, it was actually classified as a bad fighter. It was built as a fighter but didn't reach up to the requirements and was thus used in the attack role instead. It was 'quite' successfull against the 190's doing Hit and Run raids just because it was the ONLY allied plane at the time that could catch a 190 and only at low alt bellow 10k or so could it compete with a 190.
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The Typhoon out-turns the 109G-2.
First hand experience, with dismay, as with the 7~8th circle the Typhoon finally out-turned my 109G-2 and got enough gun solution to render the tail feathers with 20mm holes.
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Cc Kweassa, had the Tiffie been in R/L what it is in AH it would have been a great fighter plane.
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ammo , wel if that was whine them i like to teach you some Slovak and then ask again what i asked , but before i realy like to broke up you nose who whine about anithing !!!!!
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The Tiffy was a fine fighter. What let it down was that it was a poor high alt fighter.
Which about matches up with AH.
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the tifie wing profile wa snot the best it vas great plane becose it was fast, but in AH it loks like spit on steroides
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Takes a lot of work and thinking to turn a Typhoon against any plane in this game at slower speeds. I fly a lot of different planes in this game, and I'm quite certain that 90% of them should be able to outturn it. At high speeds, it's a bit different...the Typhoon becomes fairly agile compared to planes like the G10 and P38 who tend to be more difficult to control fast. That said, there are still about 70% of the fighters in the game that can outturn it at its full speed.
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coming soon to a website near you!
A 'minus translator'!
:D :rolleyes: :cool: :p ;)
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shut up bendover ! on rest i change mind
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Turn rate depends entirely on speed and the G's being pulled.
What you need to compare them are each plane's EM diagrams, which is a plot of speed vs. turn rate with multiple plotted lines comparing G load and turn radius.
Here's some explanations on EM diagrams at SimHQ:
http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/features/flaps/index5.shtml (http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/features/flaps/index5.shtml)
I beleive SimHQ has EM diagrams for the P-51D, Spit IX, 109-F4, F-4U, and F-6F but I can't find them at this time. Nevermind, I found em:
http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/air_combat/energymgmt/index-pf.html (http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/air_combat/energymgmt/index-pf.html)
If anyone has found a large set of these diagrams PLEASE let me know. I'll do anything for them. ANYTHING!
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Adding rudder to the Typh's roll will increase its roll rate tremendously. Unfortunatly is increases drag quite a bit, but atleast it helps prevent unexpected landings.
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Themanx, the tiffie turns very well, FAR from 90% of the planes will outturn it. I've brought it into low and slow dogfights and furrballs (and kept it slow) and yet been able to get out alive with 5+ kills several times (haven't flown it much at all though). It rolls bad but that's the only thing it does bad.
Turn rate depends on Wing loading. The lower the wing loading is the better a plane can make sustained turns.
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Originally posted by AtmkRstr
If anyone has found a large set of these diagrams PLEASE let me know. I'll do anything for them. ANYTHING!
Anything? That's the best offer I've had for a long time :)
Badboy
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Here's my rankings:
FM2
F4F-4
109E4/F6F-5(flaps)
P38
109F4
P40
109G10, G2, G6
110s
190A5
F4U/190 - about the same here...except A5
P51B
P51D
P47D11
P47D25
P47D30
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Another thing the typh has going for it in AH with it's "thick" wing is that it can make 600mph dives without shaking and recovery is as easy as pulling the stick and off you go. While a 190 hits 550TAS and it shakes neutralizing the roll and elevators.
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Originally posted by Seeker
The Tiffy was a fine fighter. What let it down was that it was a poor high alt fighter.
Which about matches up with AH.
The tiffie was crap! It could barely roll and itīs flying characteristics were probabably very poor. When Lerche, the german test pilot, flew the Tempest he was impressed how they were able to improve it so much over the Typhoon. So the tiffie canīt have been a good design.
niklas
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Originally posted by Glasses
Another thing the typh has going for it in AH with it's "thick" wing is that it can make 600mph dives without shaking and recovery is as easy as pulling the stick and off you go. While a 190 hits 550TAS and it shakes neutralizing the roll and elevators.
I've read that the typh had compressibility issues. These don't seem to be represented well in AH. That is why it was not used as an interceptor (which it was designed for) and was instead used for ground attack, and low/med alt fighter vs 190s. I'm guessing it was used vs 190s before the spit 9 was produced in numbers.
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Exactly Glassboy :)
Test reports I have of the 190 A3, being flown by RAF test pilots, report that, when hitting 550mph at 16k (don't have the source infront of me, believe it was 16k) the controls, although slightly heavier then before, were still very, and surprisingly light, pilots had no problem controlling that bird in 550mph.
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Wilbus, this excerpt ist from Alfred Price "FW190 in Combat" page 46, in which he quotes britisch tests from the FAE.
And the speed attained in the dive was 580 mph TAS (934 km/h) at 16k not 550 mph TAS.
LOL maybe HTC has confused the tiffies dive characteristics with those of the FW190, as the tiffie manages in AH what the real FW190 was capable of in WW2 and the AH FW190 is limited in the way the WW2 tiffie was.
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@atmkRstr
from http://216.219.216.110/hawker/typhoon.html
trouble was experienced in power dives--a structural failure in the tail assembly sometimes resulted in this component parting company with the rest of the airframe
it's not the AH typhoon wich is a 1944 tyffie ....
@ the others :
You're just jealous :)
Why instead of proving the 190 as a problem do you attack my lovely brit marvel ?
or is it a way to do a personal attack ? :)