Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: FTJR on August 15, 2002, 11:22:25 PM
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Im really curious, and perhaps those more learned than me can help.
The other day while egressing from a jabo run I was hunted down by another P51.
Ok so the situation is this 2 p51 at sealevel the 2nd is 950 and losing ground. He is giving short bursts trying to make me turn.
At about 960 yards and directly on my 6 He hits my radiator??
how does one do THAT???:confused:
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He used the same magic right angle bullets Kennedy was shot with...
No but to be serious, the radiator for a P51 is an oil cooling system located under and just behind the wing, not a solid block up front like in a car. The oil radiator for the spit (which also used a Merlin engine) is under the right wing.
During WW2 Good shots used to aim for the oil radiator because it was a critical system.
- Seagoon
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Chances are, he put his pipper just over your cockpit, fired a burst, and the trajectory caused the bullet to drop off and find your radiator.
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What Seagoon said, heres a pretty picture for ya:
(http://www.icon.co.za/~pauljnr/radiator.jpg)
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The Damage Modelling in AH is BAD modelled.
say you as it is possible to break to rudder of less than 1 inch of wide to 1000y? whichever projectiles hit in that rudder to break it? 1,3 1000? and the dispersion?
Is normal in AH.
Salute
Supongo
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Originally posted by SUP0NGO
The Damage Modelling in AH is BAD modelled.
say you as it is possible to break to rudder of less than 1 inch of wide to 1000y? whichever projectiles hit in that rudder to break it? 1,3 1000? and the dispersion?
Is normal in AH.
Salute
Supongo
Supongo, where are the control cables for the rudder? Thats right, the tail, aft fuselage, running up through the body of the aircraft. One bullet into the tail can take out a rudder in real life...not sure if its modeled that way here.
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Rip, it is a nice pic, but I don't think it matters much where the radiator is located at the moment.
I had my fair share of hits in 190 radiator from dead six at 900-1200 too. ;)
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Originally posted by Apar
Rip, it is a nice pic, but I don't think it matters much where the radiator is located at the moment.
I had my fair share of hits in 190 radiator from dead six at 900-1200 too. ;)
Hehe! Radial head! ;)
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Apar, why do we even have radiators? Wouldn't the challenge be to see who can shoot down the most planes upon TO without radiators? Oh yeah, who cares where the ENGINE COOLER is located.
Karaya
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Chances are, he put his pipper just over your cockpit, fired a burst, and the trajectory caused the bullet to drop off and find your radiator.
I would have thought that to get a hit using a trajectory that allowed that kind of hit, the angle at which the round struck the cowling would not be sufficient to cause penetration. The round would more likely glance off. I think the pilot was Lee Harvey Oswald, sitting on a grassy knoll.
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P51D
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moral of the story - Dont fly straight on auto pilot with a bad guy your 6- in AH you make yourself a much better target that way. In my experience, if you can change flight path at all (even just a little bit of an aileron roll) 99% of those long range bullets have no chance to hit you.
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If it's a shot from a long range, the bullets are coming at the plane from above, not from below.
Unless you're flying inverted it shouldn't hit the cooling system so easily...
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Most likely the bullet was doing its own trip, enjoying the landscape and you run over it. Be more careful next time :)
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Ah, Seagoon is right about radiator below the aircraft on the P51, but as Ripsnorts picture shows, it is a coolant radiator, not an oil radiator.
dago
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Originally posted by gofaster
Chances are, he put his pipper just over your cockpit, fired a burst, and the trajectory caused the bullet to drop off and find your radiator.
with the speed of the aircraft factored in that 950 yards is like 1150 yards(does a pony at 380 mph travel 200 yards in a second?)
at that distance the 50 cal will drop over 30 ft.
so the guy chasing was firing the full wingspan of a pony(37ft) above the guy he was firing at.
Most of us in this game know that you can not fly flat and level at less then 1.5 infront of a 50 cal armed fighter. the bullet is still somewhat dangerous and somewhat accurate and the 50 armed planes typically have lots of ammo.
Be glad he was not in a Hog C. He would have torn your plane apart not pinged your rad.
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Originally posted by Dago
Ah, Seagoon is right about radiator below the aircraft on the P51, but as Ripsnorts picture shows, it is a coolant radiator, not an oil radiator.
dago
Hi Dago,
The "scoop" did double duty serving as the radiator for the intercooler (liquid coolant) and lubricating oil. In the "A" the scoop was just for the oil radiator but in later models, including the "D" the intercooler was added to the underwing scoop:
"The North American engineers moved the carburetor air intake from above to below the nose in order to accommodate the Merlin's updraft induction system. The intercooler radiator was added to the radiator group already located inside the scoop underneath the rear fuselage, and the ventral radiator group was made noticeably deeper than before and had a sharp-angled inlet standing more than two inches away from the underside of the fuselage. The matrix and door arrangement of the ventral radiator system were modified. Instead of the oil cooler being situated in the center of a circular coolant radiator, it was relocated to the front of the duct and provided with its own ventral exit door. Further downstream, in a greatly enlarged duct, was the huge rectangular coolant matrix, with a much bigger exit door at the rear."
Hitting the oil cooling components actually causes the engine to seize rather than merely overheat.
- Seagoon
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Beet1e,
Nice Picture of Bill Hain's P-51 "Ho Hun!". He used to fly it out of Falcon Field in Mesa Arizona. When and where did you take that photo? I wonder if he sold it?
Salute,
Thunder
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>Most likely the bullet was doing its own trip, enjoying the landscape and you run over it. Be more careful next time
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Gotta remember not to be drinking something while reading these posts. Almost did the spray thing on this.
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Thunder -
I took the photo in October 1998 at the Confederate Air Force museum at Falcon Field - near Mesa? I have many more if you want them.
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Originally posted by Pongo
Be glad he was not in a Hog C. He would have torn your plane apart not pinged your rad.
Be even more pleased that it was not a Tiffy, as it has more speed than the Chog, and the same gun package! :eek:
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Rip!
Be even more pleased that it was not a Tiffy, as it has more speed than the Chog, and the same gun package!
In that case, how come the Chog costs 8pp, whereas the Tiffy is unperked?
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Originally posted by beet1e
Rip!
In that case, how come the Chog costs 8pp, whereas the Tiffy is unperked?
Moot. The Chog is perked because of its awesome ground attack abilities. It is slower than the typh.
In the situation FTJR was, the typhoon would have been more dangerous than the slow-ass hog.
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Ripsnort Wrotte:
"Supongo, where are the control cables for the rudder? Thats right, the tail, aft fuselage, running up through the body of the aircraft. One bullet into the tail can take out a rudder in real life...not sure if its modeled that way here."
Ok, in agreement, but says to Ripsnort friend, whichever cable has within the airplane and of which thickness is so that a projectile divides them? 50 cm.?
Salute
Supongo
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Originally posted by SUP0NGO
"Supongo, where are the control cables for the rudder? Thats right, the tail, aft fuselage, running up through the body of the aircraft. One bullet into the tail can take out a rudder in real life...not sure if its modeled that way here."
Ok, in agreement, but says to Ripsnort friend, whichever cable has within the airplane and of which thickness is so that a projectile divides them? 50 cm.?
Hi Supongo,
Control cables in German Bombers and Fighters regularly parted when subjected to .303 fire from British Fighters. Trust me that .50 cal bullets could easily handle the job as well.
If you want, I can see if I can dig up some quotes from Japanese or German pilots whose control cables where shot away by American .50 cal ammunition.
- Seagoon
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Seagoon Friend:
Of the thousand of airplanes Germans demolished in the WWII, single few went it to 800y, and we can say of them that they were accidental. In AH, drribo to but of 500y he is habitual, and that means that the model of damages is not the correct one. Remember, that the convergence of the arms was changed in the RAF for the caliber 303 of 600y 250y, and that must to the little damage that makes the little concentration, the same happens with the 12.7. Review those data, and side like is isolated cases that in AH they are taken like normal. Ademas, speech of armor-piercing rounds, imagines what 20mm German and explosive can get to do in the internal mecanica of an airplane. The demolitions to but of 600y, and 400y even deberian to be much but dificiles in AH, the WWII shot from closely together.
A greeting
Supongo
P.D.: I use Altavista Translation, sorry
:rolleyes:
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Ah, Ha ! I've figured it out ! ,,, when you are ahead of your hunter and he fires, the bullets are in effect chasing you down, and as your a/c is advancing under power the bullets are actually losing energy due to drag and such and slowing down, so as the bullets pass you and slow down to a speed lower than your a/c's you are actually running into the bullets in front of your a/c that have slowed to below your a/c's speed ! hence comes forth the dredded whine '..he got my fuggin radiator from ded 6 ! #$@^^^#$oscar%@&%$ !!!!! '
..see if you apply basic physics principles, anything can be explained !
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I have grave doubts that the distance of 950 is correct. Connect issues may show from the guy chasing you that he was closer then you thought:) Would be nice to know what his FE said.
Also what Turbot said, gotta turn alittle, always!
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Just more reasons to fly a 2800HP double wasp jug :D
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Hehe! Radial head!
Rip, ;)
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Its a numbers game. First of all, the a/c skin is NOT titanium (well, cept for the Niki). So, rounds can in fact pierce the skin. If he fires enough rounds in the general direction sooner or later he will get a couple of pings. Second, the rounds trajectory is not flat, and its fairly rare for anyone to make a 'dead 6' shot, as you will usually be above, to the left, etc, but no dead centre 6.
So heres a test for the damage model naysayers, lets, say a mere 5 rounds enter the general area of the engine block out of a thousand sprayed rounds. Now, go borrow a friends 50 cal (I know you yanks have these stashed everywhere), take it out to your car, and randomly fire 5 rounds into the engine block area.
Next post your results on how driveable your vehicle was afterwards. For good measure a couple of your should try just 1 or 2 rounds, and another couple should try say 20 rounds.
:D