Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Yeager on August 11, 2001, 02:41:00 AM
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Is it just me or are 190s really getting rediculous with the insta flip flops?
Ive lost tracking on several 190s due to the unpredictable nature of the insta flip flops only to find the same 190 on my 6 shooting like mad.
Im sorry but it is not the way one would see combat through biological eye sockets.
The 190 roll should be adjusted to that of visual capacity to see the rolling as it occurs.
Im sorry LW guys, I know the 190 had the most bestest roll rate but it appears to have been so good that 21st century technology cant transmit those rolls at the speed of electrons.
Y
[ 08-11-2001: Message edited by: Yeager ]
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190's are fine the way they are.
last thing needed in AH is mushbirds dumbed down inertia roll code
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And that a significantly reduced roll-rate in AH Yeager.
Mebbe P51s should have slower speed and dive.
Mebbe Spits should turn less well.
All those things bother me. :)
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I sometimes experience warp rolling 190s.
I sometimes experience war rolling P-38's, P-47, P-51's and spits.
The ratio between the 190 and other fighters for me is about 1:1; i.e 1 warp for 190 means 1 warp for [insert plane].
Then again, I know that some people can make the fast rolling planes do weird warpage maneuvers. This is not so much due to *roll rate* as it is riding the edge of the "don't move your controls so rapidly" algorithm.
And no thanks; adding inertia to deal with a technical problem isn't the way to go. HTC gets my $30 bucks for having been smart enough to come up with an alternative solution.
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"Then again, I know that some people can make the fast rolling planes do weird warpage maneuvers. This is not so much due to *roll rate* as it is riding the edge of the "don't move your controls so rapidly" algorithm."
CC!! I've seen Spits and 190's (only mentioning these two as they are the two that come to mind right away) do manuevers (fish-flop, leaping about like a porpoise, break-dance like flying) that should bleed thier "E" like crazy, imo. When the wings and fuselages go perpendicular to the air flow there should be a huge brake effect if not outright removal of appendages from the main body. But that doesn't happen.
Westy
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It's NOT inertia coding that makes it mushbirds, it's the fact that any control surface inputs are delayed or "slowed down" to supposedly "realistic" levels, so that it takes forever to move the ailerons, etc. to full deflection. :(
The same delay is also present in AH, but it is nowhere near as much. :)
PS: If 190 causes problems even with it's "significantly reduced"(choke) rollrate, then it's no wonder we haven't seen a clipped wing Spitfire. :p
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The fish flopping warp rolling LW dance is not so much of a problem... I just wait till he wears out his stick... but that takes time; and often his buddies notice the blood in the water; and come on over...
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I dont think Yeager is complaining about the roll rate being too fast.
I think he's trying to ask if there is anyway to speed up the coding so that you just see the plane flip.
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I'm so sick of the flopping that I go for 190's first. It's only fair! :)
That's when the n1k gets me. :rolleyes:
:cool:
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Oh btw.
I am gonna take up the style of posting of some of the posters here, just for the fun of it. I've taken the liberty of adding a ælittle of the thought process, as if I was one of them but with less impulse control. Ahem.
"Hehehe I bet the RAF wants all LW planes to fly slow and steady and not fire back. <impulse>
You RAF guys are unbelievevable. I won't read a word any person that has flown a RAF plane writes and actually read the text, instead I'll focus on this RAF issue.
</impulse>
Flips flops happened in real life you know. They could intentionally stall the wing of a plane and get an amazing roll rate. I'll post some anecdotal evidence later to prove that I'm utterly right and <impulse>that you, quite basically, are full of sh|t.</impulse>
Btw, if he flip flops in front of you, it's your own stupid fault. Learn to set up an attack properly. Ever heard of net lag? Well, it happens dude. <Impulse>Stop your whining, it's your own whoopeeed fault. Man am I sick of people wo think they have some kind of point.</impulse>
Where are the films? I want to see some evidence. I want you to film every engagement you have now, have it verified that you did just that and then I want a statistical analysis of the data. <impulse>Even then I won't be happy, but I ain't saying that outright here. I'm dug in and prepared to stick by my guns</impulse>
Get real <impulse> think like me. or you're nothing. I hate anything RAF. What's the matter with you; a dissenting opinion? I bet you couldn't beat up me and my cheerleaders all at once, you wuss. Hope to see you at the con, we'll kick the crap outta you</impulse>
:D
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Damn santa; you coulda saved us all a lotta time by posting that sooner in these threads!
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As a avid Dora user, I am still amazed at the flippidy flopping other 190's do.
I fly the Dora 90%, and always try and zoom in on stuff. The 190's that see me of course wait to 600 and do this flip thingy alot of the times. And in fact, sometimes it is outright comical.
Thing is, when Im in that position and use rudder pedals for a bleed reducing spiral roll, I rarley, but sometimes get the accusation Im stick stiring, when from my point of view Im using what before with a hoopty twisty stick, I was unable, or not aware that I could do.
It might be user FE.
I think some guys do use the roll rate and lag of the game to do these really weird flops, I never try, but again, it may just be FE.
edit- and I have many films, as I enjoy this flopping thing. :)
[ 08-11-2001: Message edited by: Creamo ]
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Yeager, I might be the only one, but I am VERY Rarely experiansing any flip flopping 190's, nor am I experiasing any Flip Flopping spits due to their turnrate, don't know why, but I don't.
If (I'd quit AH right away) the 190's roll rate was to be slowed down, it would lose (A's and F) the little advantage they have, allso IF the roll rate was to be slowed down, let's say 20%, so should ALL (evry little single pitchy little flying and non flying) plane in the game, have its roll rate turned down by 20% to counter for the disadvantage of the 190. Now, I am sure most of us would hate to fly F6f's and 109's with 20% less roll rate, eh?
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I've never noticed the 190's doing excessive flip flop, always looks fluid to me.
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Get a better connection?-)
Don't meet with the laggers?-)
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Right on Wilbuz. Fast rolling is not flip flopping, neither is stall turning. If ya can't handle the fast maneuvering planes, zoom out and make a new attack, or slow down (risky) and wait for the right shot (it will come)
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That's because your old and can't see anyway, hblair.
The flop comes around occasionally, but is usually a last ditch attempt. Pulling up a little til he gets done flopping about usually works fine, and he's much slower and easier to pick apart then.
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Hmm.. weren't those "change of directions using tremendous roll rate moves" the reason the RAF considered the 190s as "highly maneuverable craft" despite obviously not-so-impressive roll rates? I mean, I've never seen an actual 190 or something, but I think the only way a Spit pilot might report to a CO "I met a weird plane that flipped and turned on a dime" :) is due to those sorts of maneuvers.
I dunno if they lose, or do not lose E while doing the "flop", mebbe the mo' better 190 pilots can fill us in with this one.. but considering the attacker might actually make mistakes(which he is not aware of) while trying to counter the 190 move, and most usually 190s flop downwards, I think this is what may cause people to think that the 190 didn't lose any E on the move..
I truly dunno, just opinion.. mebbe StSanta or Grun can give us a little explanation? :)
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OOOOps..
that's "obviously not-so impressive turn rate" there, not roll-rate... boy, this one's a mistake to be remembered... *chuckles*
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the other day vulcan did that gay bellybutton flip stuff in a tiffie
basically, all u gotta do is stall the plane to flip flop anyplane
this of course bleeds off alot of e tho
personally what i hate most is the bastards using -3g manouvers. irl thatd give u a hemmorage. id like to see stronger consequences for negative g.
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I have to say that the Fw190s have never seemed to "warp roll" to me. They roll fast, but it has always been fluid unless the guy is lagging, but that shows up in other areas and other aircraft as well.
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Am I correct in assuming that in rl you can only pull about 1/2 as many neg gs as pos gs?
I know each individual may have different tolerences in relation to pos gs but there's only so much blood that can fill the head before something gives.
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Fatty, quit flying against all the tards and go against a good pilot and you might see less than that.
;)
I think that some (not all) cases of stuff like this can be attributed to people getting outflown and needing some kind of excuse. I have gotten into fights with spits, and done a slow down hard rudder scissor move, kill the guy, and be accused of warping. On two occasions the guy went and watched his film and came back in the arena and apologized, it wasn't like he first thought it was. Sometimes the guy in front of you can outfly you so fast, you think it just had to be a warp!
:eek:
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whta a crap !! it have nothing to due with 190!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
how many time spit warp outroll me in 190
it depend on the player internet conection thta all !!!
so stop it ur you will be punished to fly 190 for the rest of yours days! :D
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Flip flops happen on most planes; I've seen P-47's occasionally do it.
it happens when someone is flying on the verge of a stall and rolls a lot. Add a little rudder and it might come unintentionally.
Now, because of the "prediction" algorithm in online games (thanks Assassins for informing me about it :)) if you add a bit of vertical, you can intentionally get the flip flop thing, even without being near stall speed. I have a few films of it happening where I KNEW the pilot would flip flop and thus turned on the camera just as I engaged.
Sometimes a stall roll thingy (proper name anyone?) can seem like a flip flop, but a flip flop is change not only in roll, but also in another direction.
Flip flopping maneuvers appears to be e demanding - it's a method some use to get the other guy to overshoot. The suggested solution of slowing down works quite well - but sometimes you either cannot slow down more and don't have the energy to go up one single millimetre. The spray n pray method might yield a result as the distance then is quite short.
I agree with Zigrat about the negative g moves - often the people wjho flip flop use the negative g move - which suggests that they are linked in a way. It's really beating the "don't move your controls so rapidly" algorithm, taking advantage of some form of unidentified weakness in it.
Pump 'n dump maneuvers as I like to call them :) should result in 30-60 seconds of redout, simulating the bursting of every small blood vessel in the pilots eyes. In fact, overall I think it'd be a good idea to have a longer redout time; blood vessels bursting in yer eyes don't go away in .50 of a second.
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"The stall roll thingie" is called a snap roll. Roll to the left while inputing hard left rudder. The left wing stalls, increasing the roll force via unbalanced lift.
Actually, I'm constantly amazed that online flight sims work at all. You're only getting about one or two updates per second of other peoples planes even when the net is perfect. Think how far a plane can travel (or roll) in a second. I think that despite the codes interpolation and extrapolation (prediction) routines, net delay still has a big effect on online sims making it much harder to hit a target than it would be if you had instant updates of other planes. (Of course it doesn't make much difference in my case as I can't hit anything anyway.)
715
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Here ya are Wotan..
"c. Tolerance of -Gz (foot to head) has not been studied intensively. About -1 Gz produces an unpleasant congestion of blood in the face and head; -2 to -3 Gz causes severe congestion of the face, throbbing headache, progressively blurring, graying, or occasionally reddening of vision. After exposure to -Gz, there may be tiny hemorrhages in the skin and eyes and the eyelids may be swollen. Minus 5 Gz for 5 seconds is probably the upper limit of tolerance; this level has seldom been achieved by volunteer subjects."
Still bored? :D
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I dont care what you Dweebs call it.
No FM should be allowed to perform faster than the capability the net has to transmit that data to other computers.
Get off your "I love nazi regalia" horse and admit it!
If the P47 or P51..whatever, is doing the same thing then those FMs should be adjusted to compensate for the fact.
If no pilots eyes ever saw that instant flip flop crap then neither should we.
Yeager
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Yeager,
Maybe its your connection. I never see what you are describing.
I'm also not a leather wearing Luftwaffe fan, I'm a tea sipping nancy RAF fan.
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hmmmmmmmmmmm, sounds like yeager got shot down by a 190 lately :p.
Encountered the described FlipFlops very rarely, usually when my conn sucks. And then it's I see it on any kind of plane.
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Guys what about thinking of this prob in a completly different way.
I mentioned it before and will do it again, Fighter Ace has developed a kind of konstant data stream method that doesnt allow for any warp moves due to a specif number of refresh time a sec.
In FA the flight path is constantly transmitted, there are no 3-4 times a second position data transfers. Leads to very smooth gameplay, warps only appear through lost packages but not to moves being to fast to track for the connection.
Before altering all planes to fit the gameplay, maybe the gameplay can be modified to fit the necesseties off a WW2 flight sim.
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Never seen flip flop either or least I did'nt recognize it as such. Think I'
ve done a few a couple of times, manuevering and stall and suddenly facing other direction? But is'nt this normal, stall one wing the other unstalled wing flips you around like crazy?
Don't see how this would benefit anyone thou, usually die soon afterwards.
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Nah thats complete different to what Yeagers doing.
What I did was induce a high-speed-stal/spin. In the tiffie if u flick a little rudder and a little vator at speed the thing flicks into a stall -> then spin real fast. Its something I rarely do, like when a 190 is right up my arse and I've got nowhere to go.
For a least a few seconds you will have a clear easy shot of me. Then I also end up blowing 5k in alt and speed.
I believe some aircraft in AH can recover rather fast from such moves (ie spit, hawg, and niki). Tiffie certainly doesn't, its a once only and with alt to spare type move.
Now what Yeager was talking about was the high 190 roll rate coupled with porposing vs net lag.
Usually when I see it I blow thru, the guy ends up low and slow pretty quick. Once the 190 is slow they can't do that toejam.
p.s. zig sometimes I spin out like that by accident - can't remember if it was on purpose or not so don't get ur knickers in a twist.
Originally posted by Zigrat:
the other day vulcan did that gay bellybutton flip stuff in a tiffie
basically, all u gotta do is stall the plane to flip flop anyplane
this of course bleeds off alot of e tho
personally what i hate most is the bastards using -3g manouvers. irl thatd give u a hemmorage. id like to see stronger consequences for negative g.
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Im really good at spinning out of control in a F4-1C...Its a great evasive manuever...until...I hit the ground :(
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I see flip floppin 190's all de time, and I have a good connect.
SKurj
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Spin is a great way to get away, it throws the plane in all directions in AH (from the other guys end) and thus makes it hard to hit from close distance.
I've never seen a flip flopping 190, I fly 190's and I fight 190's, I have never seen a flip flopping spit either.
Yeager, your "all you nazi guys" crap is just stupid, you know very well that non (I think, not me anyway) of us are nazis and we only fly the GERMAN planes because we like them, and like the different way and tactics it takes to survive.
Nothing wrong with the roll rate of it, lower it and you will see 80% of the LW Population leave within a week, maybe this is just what you want?
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"Minus 5 Gz for 5 seconds is probably the upper limit of tolerance; this level has seldom been achieved by volunteer subjects."
As with positive G's, you can also build a tolerance against negative G's. I've seen a G-meter after a unlimited aerobatics session pegged at +10/-8.
Daff
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Peggin' it momentarily and holding it for 5 seconds might be two different things don't you think?
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ok you have probably heard about the fw190a3 that landed in wales giving the allies a chance to fly and test the fw190a3 verses the current allied planes at that time?
well here is an excert from 'fw190 in combat' by alfred price in which the conclusions of the test pilots in those trials are published:
'the flying characteristics are exceptional and a pilot new to the type feels at home within the first few minutes of flight.The controls are light and well-harmonised and all manoeuvres can be carried out without difficulty at all speeds.The fact that the fw190 does not require re-trimming under all conditions of flight is a particularly good point.The intitial acceleration is very good and is particularly noticable in the initial stages of a climb or dive.Perhaps one of the most outstanding qualities of this aircraft is the remarkable aileron control.It is possible to change from a turn in one direction to a turn in the opposite direction with incredible speed, and when veiwed from another aircraft the change appears just as if a flick half-roll has been made.'
this is the conclusion of the enemy of this aircraft remember and it is known that the engine of the captured fw190 wasnt running correctly because of the sparkplugs(later corrected by using plugs from a downed D0217).
Sounds to me as if what we see in AH is tame by comparison to what these guys wrote.there are comparisons between the fw190 and the spit VB ,spitIX ,mustang 1a ,p38f ,4 cannon typhoon, and prototype griffon spitfire, all aircraft being flown by experienced pilots.
I think to start toning down the roll on the 190 even more would be absolutely wrong and in my opinion would ruin the game for me.
I have played AH for ages and i have hardly ever seen these warp rolls.I have seen warps from all the planes but its just a bad connection as far as im concerned.Sorry but leave the 190 roll alone or if it is reduced ALL other planes should get the same reduction!
P.S. drop the NAZi crap please yeager, i dont think its funny even in a joke which i really hope it was.
[ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: hazed- ]
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Originally posted by hblair:
I've never noticed the 190's doing excessive flip flop, always looks fluid to me.
yeah i'm a little embarassed to say i haven't either - though the move sounds like a keeper! :)
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I've seen lots of planes (not just the 190) do the flip flop warp. Usually, the 190 just looks like a floppy fish to me when he does it, but doesn't really warp. I laugh at them for the most part.
I rarely see 190's in the MA anyways, so I don't have much to base it on.
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I can tell when Im behind some new dweeb or a real hot and fancy T&B gameboy inexperienced in 190s. They try flying it like a N1K or a Spit, pulling back on the stick and they just crap all over themselves. It looks so bad, it laughable.
I cant believe anyone with anytime in this game can honestly say they have NEVER seen 190s flip and flop about. But hey, whatever.
Whats the point in having a plane that can twirl 30 times a second when no FE on earth will paint it more than 15 times a second.
190 Roll Rate needs to be tempered and to all you poor little bastards that get red faced and teary eyed when poor little Yeager uses the VERBOTTEN "N" word, cry me a RIVER you stinking PUKES! LMAO...
Hehe.......err........DOH!
Y
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I have seen 190's flip flop about. But most of the time it isn't so warpy that I can't fight them. Maybe if the arena was full of them I'd notice it more. Either way, I'd hate to see AH cripple the FM's for gameplay like another sim.
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I tought that AH didnt have micro warps, never seen this in AH...
Regards.
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hazed... you should read the comparisson of a perfect A5 and a Hellcat and a Corsair. The Corsair could roll with the A5. Corsair had mechanicaly boosted ailerons and they were considered the best of all WWII ac. Basically the test showed that if you were in a 190 you had best hope you didn't run into a corsair or a hellcat.
I have seen a lot of planes verge on a warp roll but the 190 crosses the line. It is able to do the "floppy fish" or fish out of water jig till you run out of ammo. the move takes no skill at all and if you have been at the other end of it.... you will be a trifle disgusted. I don't know what the answer is but the Hog should roll as good as any 190 by most accounts. If the 190 roll rate was slowed to the Hog speed then things would be pretty good gameplay and comparisson wise.
lazs
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It just doesn't seem that bad to me. I guess that is because I have seen a lot worse and the induced warping I see in AH is pretty minor in comparison.
This is a problem in the communications code, not the FM code. The problem is mostly related to bandwidth and if everybody had cable-modem or better I suspect HTC could make noticeable improvements in this area within a week.
Changing FMs because of imperfect data transfer over the internet would be really bad IMO.
I guess even funkedup is correct some of the time :P.
Hooligan
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Stop causin trouble Yeag!
No one will listen anyway :)
Besides...don't ya know...whatever we see is correct and whatever we say is whinin...I expected more from you...really!
:D
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Wut Hooligan said :).
Seems as if our expeience differ rather much. I've seen flip flopping 190s. Also seen flip flopping 51's, spits, p-47s, tiffies and 38's.
Which, if we take yeager's suggestion seriously, would indicate that there's a need for toning down these airplanes as well.
Not sure I wanna go there for problems that are rather rare.