Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Sandman on August 18, 2002, 06:46:23 PM
-
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=514&ncid=514&e=6&u=/ap/20020818/ap_on_re_us/slave_reparations_2
-
"It seems that America owes black people a lot for what we have endured," Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan told the crowd. "We cannot settle for some little jive token. We need millions of acres of land that black people can build."
"We're not begging white people," said Farrakhan, one of several speakers at a rally organizers billed as "Millions for Reparations." "We are just demanding what is justly ours."
:rolleyes:
-
Farrakhan is such a complete cartoon character , I some
times wonder if the right didn't make him up, to discredit the left.
-
he'd be comical if he weren't dangerous.
amazing what crap some swallow
-
I have Scottish heritage. 4 Generations since my relatives came to Canada. Hey and my family was even royalty (Dunbar.) Then the English took away my ancestor's land and royalty and killed most of my great great great great great grandfathers. That was like 800 years ago.
Im am now writing a letter to the English government. You owe me some serious cash and free sheep you bastages!
:rolleyes:
-
You look at the deplorable conditions African Americans have had to endure throught their American history from the past to the present and it's no wonder they're pissed. They've been kept "on the plantation" for over 400 years now, and at some point we have to admit our failings and offer the olive branch of financial restitution to African Americans.
-
Zebco 202...
-
BTW, the Native American half of me wants some free land, too. And money, lots of money. And I ain't askin', I'm demanding.
-
What's the plan for distribution anyhow? I mean, if we're talking about slavery reparations, will you need to provide documentation proving that you were decended from a slave? I'm honestly wondering about this. How many people have researched the geneology back that far? Are there any African Americans here that have looked this up?
-Sikboy
-
The US govt should make a statement saying
"Yeah, ok we screwed up and we are going to pay a gazillion dollars in reparations. We can only afford to pay either the Native americans or the African americans though, so we are giving you guys the state of kansas for 30 days to slug it out, winner takes all".
-
maybe whites could ask for reperations for years of room and board. :rolleyes:
I couldn't be less interested.
Apathy
btw-"I've never owned or was a slave, I didn't wander forty years in the desert after getting chased out of Egypt, I haven't burned any witches or been persecuted by the Turks and neither have you, so shut-up already. "
-
Btw, does anyone know how their line of reasoning goes? I mean they must motivate it somehow...right?
Is it along the lines of "150 years ago, ONE OF MY ANCESTORS had to work without pay as a slave, that was wrong, so now you must give ME millions of dollars ..because...uh..because he was my ancestor and...it was wrong..."
...I mean...hello??
-
To be fair, there were many years of social injustice prior to, during, and after the Civil War. Thing is, it ended 137 years ago, and the civil rights movements of the '50's and '60's went a long way to bring awareness to the intolerance of whites. Affirmative Action was intended to bring a bit more parity to race in the workplace- with debatable results. In the end, there can be no real justification for such a silly demand.
More, even if there was a basis, it wouldn't happen. Nation of Islam isn't exactly friendly to the U.S.A., and creating a virtual country within our country with militant Muslims in control is a little less than... likely. Heck, knowing Louis, he'd be demanding weapons for "self defense".
-
Maybe African Americans are finally realizing they'll never get a fair shake in America from the white man so maybe they're saying OK, then pay me for the abuse of the past 400 years and I won't deal with you and you won't have to deal with me. Maybe they're tired of having to depend on white America for jobs and futures. Who knows? Maybe they feel like they're owed. Maybe they ARE owed.
-
I'm tellin' ya, the Native American half of me is pissed. Hey, at least whitey let the blacks live, he killed off the indians.
But... if some blacks are so pissed with America, and no longer want to feel dependent on America for jobs or handouts, they are welcome to explore their possibilities in another country. As far as I'm concerned, the Farrakhan demand is a request for the ultimate entitlement, and is an insult to the black race.
Edit: On second thought, there is a way for everyone to get what they want.
1. U.S. gives Farrakhan what he wants, on the condition every participating person renounce their American citizenship.
2. Give them land in New Mexico- hey, it's sparsely populated, free from interfering whities.
3. Immediately resume nuclear and biological weapons testing in New Mexico.
-
"Nation of Islam" now there is a name that must be every PR guys wet dream these days.
"Ok guys, lets focus on the good sides of Islam...not the suicide bombers in Israel or the mad afghans in the caves"
-
So three guys are sitting in a bar.. another one walks in and says "Hey I heard on the Rush Limbaugh show that racism is dead in America"
One fella at the bar said "Ah that's great! now what are the niggazs gonna complain about?"
-
Reparations for slavery is a stretch I'll admit. But there are many Black Americans living today who were harmed by racist laws and practices. Maybe that is where the emphasis should be placed.
-
Originally posted by Elfenwolf
Maybe African Americans are finally realizing they'll never get a fair shake in America from the white man so maybe they're saying OK, then pay me for the abuse of the past 400 years and I won't deal with you and you won't have to deal with me. Maybe they're tired of having to depend on white America for jobs and futures. Who knows? Maybe they feel like they're owed. Maybe they ARE owed.
And then the white man says: Yes..you are right...hmm...We dont have that kind of cash lying around in the White house though. Here, let us give you a ride back to whatever country you want to live in. And let us pay you with these here fine stock options instead (modern substitute for glass pearls).
-
Originally posted by midnight Target
Reparations for slavery is a stretch I'll admit. But there are many Black Americans living today who were harmed by racist laws and practices. Maybe that is where the emphasis should be placed.
OR maybe the emphasis should not be placed on some lawsuit at all...maybe..JUST maybe it would be better if everyone stopped trying to rip off someone through a lawsuit and instead tried to get on with their lives and make the best of it.
-
Seriously, I am half Native American. What do I deserve for my trouble?
-
Originally posted by Hortlund
OR maybe the emphasis should not be placed on some lawsuit at all...maybe..JUST maybe it would be better if everyone stopped trying to rip off someone through a lawsuit and instead tried to get on with their lives and make the best of it.
So, we shouldn't have paid reparations to the Japanese interned during WW2? Aren't you compasionate.
Sorry we screwed up.... you'll learn to live with it though. :rolleyes:
-
Seriously, I am half Native American. What do I deserve for my trouble?
[/b]
How 'bout these stock options?
-
Originally posted by midnight Target
So, we shouldn't have paid reparations to the Japanese interned during WW2? Aren't you compasionate.
Sorry we screwed up.... you'll learn to live with it though. :rolleyes:
Why are you Americans so fixated with money?
Some day Midnight, you will realize that money does not heal wounds.
A broken bone...what is that worth? How do you value physical damage?
A rape...how much should the girl get in damages?
A survivor of the Holocaust?
"Yes, you lost your entire family and all your relatives, you were tortured and enslaved for 4 years...we are sorry, here is $1 000 000"
There is no price tag on human suffering.
-
Originally posted by Hortlund
Why are you Americans so fixated with money?
Some day Midnight, you will realize that money does not heal wounds.
A broken bone...what is that worth? How do you value physical damage?
A rape...how much should the girl get in damages?
A survivor of the Holocaust?
"Yes, you lost your entire family and all your relatives, you were tortured and enslaved for 4 years...we are sorry, here is $1 000 000"
There is no price tag on human suffering.
True enough, thats why there is such a thing as Punative damages. But what I'm talking about is the replacement of lost property/ wages/ earnings/ etc. Those are money, and can be replaced with money.
-
Originally posted by Kieran
Seriously, I am half Native American. What do I deserve for my trouble?
A spanking?
-
Put your PC dictionaries away will ya. Open websters and read the deffinition of native and american.
My grandfather came to America from Kristiania, Norway in 1916 he was born in Norway that made him a native to Norway. 46 years later I was born in this country that makes me a native American.
Btw I consider myself an American not some pc norweigian or scandanavian american, I never been to norway. Read the deffinition of caucasian I never been to any of those places either :)
If a survey asks I mark native american, ruffles there feathers everytime.
-
How old was your dad when you were born????
-
hehe
-
I'll see your spanking and up you a knuckle sandwich. ;)
I'm just fooling around, really. I don't expect a thing from anyone, never have. I just wasn't raised that way.
Now if Farrakhan had said "we need better education" or "we need more job opportunities", who could really argue? And, being Americans, if he could prove there was a disparity, then something should be done to bring about parity. No contest. That isn't the Nation of Islam doctrine at all, however. They are against integrating with whites, they do not consider whites equals, in fact, they are every bit as racist as the whites they deplore. Their request has nothing to do with dissolving those boundaries that separate us, they want to build their version of the Berlin Wall.
So, boiled down to its essence the request amounts to "gimme, gimme, gimme". It is throwing money at a group of people hell bent on soaking as much guilt and money from society as they can get, with absolutely no intention of giving anything in return. They don't want to be citizens. They don't have to be citizens, but they sure as heck aren't entitled to handouts without the responsibility to behave as citizens afterward.
-
I believe a type of reparation should be paid. Heres why- Whenever a nation has a large population of impoverished, and uneducated citizens, they are a drain on society. Crime rates rise, taxes must be collected to help support them (welfare), and animosity is created between the Haves and Have-Nots.
My suggestion would be some type of education fund that allowed blacks to attend college for free. Maybe even free housing so blacks attending college could get out of the slums and ghettos.
While this generation of America had nothing to do with slavery, we are living with the results of it.
-
The evil Turks invaded my country a few hundred years ago... Where do I send for the check?
I am Slavic and German by descent. The Slav ethnic group is the origin for the term slave, so in the past my ancestors were enslaved so much that the very concept of the slavery is named after us. Somebody owes me some serious money.
The studmuffingoty assed Italian army shelled my village during WW2, they killed some of my relatives and put a big hole in the roof of our house. We have still not been compensated for these injustices.
The Serbs have oppresed the Croatians in Yugoslavia, I'm not sure how this complaint will be worked out. Oh wait we all know how it went....
So send me the check Elfenwolf, $5000, or youll be a supporter of slavery, Turkish agression or Italian Fascist militarism.
BTW Elfenwolf how much money do you figure you owe to the blacks?
-
I considered demanding reparations from Spain. I am black Irish. Something to do with spaniards raping and pillaging along the coast of Ireland. But, before my body began to decompose, the women found the black hair, blue eyes, and dark completion, dead sexy. So I figured, what the hell, it got me laid. Its a push.
-
"You look at the deplorable conditions African Americans have had to endure throught their American history from the past to the present and it's no wonder they're pissed."
African Africans have had to endure much worse.
-
If I ever go to Sweden, I SWEAR to stay on the right side of the law :D
Stop munching those coffee beans Steve, it's bad for your health...
-
Hey... my ancestors got run out of Ireland by the English. They took our piddlin' bit of land too.
I want Dowding as my Butler and I want it done tomorrow!
.... all kidding aside, I'm not going to live long enough to see it but you'll hear gales of laughter from six feet under my headstone when"
The Asians and the Hispanics finally own and run this place since there about the only ones left willing to totally work their *sses off.......
AND
Farakahn and his ilk try to run a scam like this on them.
Can you say Civil War, Part Deux?
Won't be no "white man's guilt" to save 'em then. :)
-
seems like this is getting out of hand.
If someone rapes and steals from another person and i happen to be the same race (useless term to me) am i responsible for what happened? Am i still responsible 300 years later?
Is a portion of my meagre paycheck rightfully owed to the people who were wronged by people i have never met, talked to, or hand the chance to kick in the balls for being idiots?
Hell i know im young and stupid, and never had the misfortune to be oppressed, but if we all are calling for money, I believe more than a handful of white (again usless term to me) Americans and especially Canadians are owed some heavy dollars because of slavery. My great grandfather owned a farm and brought 2 black Americans to Canada...and he paid them..and paid for their families to come here. Large families.
Then again, those old folks who helped free slaves and gave harbour to native Americans are long dead and gone have more wealth in spirit than any amount of dollars could have given them.
(steps off of soapbox)
(edit) did i just say "a handful?" damn that was bad. I meant any abololishonist...and their families...and those brave KIDS who were yanks. oh and their families too. I apologize if i offended anyone.
-
Originally posted by Kieran
Seriously, I am half Native American. What do I deserve for my trouble?
Don't know if it's true Kieran, but I heard Native Americans or half Native Americans could hunt and fish legally without having to buy a license or adhere to legal seasons. Probably bs, but who knows?
There's also the casino industry operated by Native Americans. I don't know anything about it. Maybe someone here does. I guess the guys who operate the casinos have to pay big money to become legally licensed, whereas Native Americans get to do this as a sort of reparations granted by the US Govt.
Les
Edit...
Grant you, it's the tribes who get to do this and not individuals, but if you're part of a recognized tribe, you could probably get some benefits from it. Does anyone here know how this works?
-
my family has been in this country from17xx, my family never owned slaves , my family never got rich off of "free" slave labor, because my fanily never got rich off of "free"slave labor i am poor today.
the govt should pay my family for never having owned slaves
-
Originally posted by fdiron
I believe a type of reparation should be paid. Heres why- Whenever a nation has a large population of impoverished, and uneducated citizens, they are a drain on society. Crime rates rise, taxes must be collected to help support them (welfare), and animosity is created between the Haves and Have-Nots.
My suggestion would be some type of education fund that allowed blacks to attend college for free. Maybe even free housing so blacks attending college could get out of the slums and ghettos.
While this generation of America had nothing to do with slavery, we are living with the results of it.
I'd agree with you, except there are just as many poor white people as poor black people in this country. Hell, I just read in the paper today that in the wealthiest county where I live (maryland), the average income of blacks is higher than the average income of whites. It would be a logical assumption that those wealthy blacks had ancestors that were slaves to, so how come I get no credit for that, but get blamed because other blacks are just as poor as I am?
-
The price of our Civil War, although not specifically about slavery, should be enough.
I say pay them reparations by giving them citizenship (that was Lincoln's answer). If they still hold their hand out, slap it.
-
Farakhan and company are doing nothing more than making complete lazy looking useless love muffines of themselves... I hope they get LOTS of coverage.
-
I'd agree with you, except there are just as many poor white people as poor black people in this country. Hell, I just read in the paper today that in the wealthiest county where I live (maryland), the average income of blacks is higher than the average income of whites. It would be a logical assumption that those wealthy blacks had ancestors that were slaves to, so how come I get no credit for that, but get blamed because other blacks are just as poor as I am?
Proportionately, the black community is in worse shape than the white community. While there could be more whites below the poverty level than blacks, percentage wise there is a big difference.
-
WHAT ABOUT AFRICAN AMERICA'S DEBT?
TIME TO TELL THE VOCAL CHARLATANS TO SHUT UP
By: William Mayer
We have recently been subjected to a lot of noise regarding the salamanderly issue of reparations, money to be paid to the offspring of the American slave experience - as little as two weeks ago California Governor Gray Davis established common cause with the most extreme forces in this movement.
Leaders from Jesse Jackson to Kweisi Mfume have demanded that, because of the despicable nature of slavery, money must change hands in similar manner to the plus $1 billion that was paid to square the moral account regarding the Japanese internment during WWII.
A little mining of the historical record reveals that the first Black slaves were brought to America in 1619 and the practice of keeping humans on this continent as legally provided for chattel continued until 1865 - a time span of 246 years.
Until Lincoln’s Emancipation Proclamation, the history of humanity - as far back as records exist - is commingled with an element of slavery.
The Bible acknowledges its existence, as does the Koran. It existed at the height of Greek achievement and throughout the Roman Empire.
Slavery was omnipresent, and not just Black slavery, as Caucasian slaves - especially the musically gifted and comely women - from as far away as Russian Georgia, were sold into slavery throughout the Ottoman Empire.
For 600 years, in the period before the arrival of the Europeans, it was the Islamic world that established the slave trading routes which laced across the African continent - slaves either captured in raids or paid to various sultans as tribute, as was the case in the African Nubian kingdom.
The aforementioned history lesson is not offered as a defense against the indefensible - it is a simple statement of fact - against which our little essay plays.
What was life like as a “free” African?
The short answer was, pretty horrendous, like much of the rest of the world at that time, however Africa was afflicted with a killer combination of inhospitable climates and traditional deadly maladies of malaria, tuberculosis, pneumonia and diarrheal disease which made life especially precarious.
Tribal warfare also was an ever-present danger, one only has to examine the brief brutal history of Shaka Zulu and his bloody campaigns against his neighbors and finally his own increasingly malevolent actions against his own people which resulted in his assassination at the hands of his half brothers.
Life in much of Africa is still very hard today, probably harder in comparison with the rest of the world than was the case before the arrival of the Europeans.
Savage tribal warfare still exists [Hutus and Tutsis for example] now empowered by modern weaponry, totalitarian dictatorships abound, and then there is the terrible additional burden of AIDS which has reduced average life expectancy in Africa to less than 50 years - the worst, by far, in the world.
So we are left this contrast between a very hard “old world” and a seemingly even harsher “new world”
Some additional facts to put this in perspective:
The majority of slaves were brought to America between 1720 and 1780, by the time of the Civil War the institution of slavery had already weathered at least 5 generations.
25% of White Southern families owned slaves, the overwhelming majority owning but few - 2.8% of slave owners accounted for 25% of the total number of slaves held.
Approximately 4,000 free Blacks, themselves owned slaves
Was life as a slave hard?
Absolutely, but so was life in rural America.
Was the life of the average slave one of brutalization?
Not necessarily.
Slaves were valuable property and a very important part of the means of production, certainly brutality existed, but mistreatment made as little sense as the abuse of anything instrumental to putting bread on the table.
Does this ignore the moral dimension of owning another human, no, but it is important to look at this objectively.
Historical revisionism aside, the de-facto result of the Civil War was the death of American slavery, the price?
558,000 killed, 375,000 wounded, that is 933,000 either killed or wounded - approximately 1 out of every 20 Americans living at the time - a staggering figure.
And the economic price was also unfathomable - $5.2 billion [in 1990 dollars] expended.
Now, in today's multi-trillion dollar economy $5.2 billion seems like chump change, but consider the fact that in 1860 the entire Federal Budget was only $74,000,000. As further perspective understand that in 1861 our entire national debt was $90,581,000 and that by 1866 it had swelled to $2,773,236,000 - totally as a result of the war.
Taken together the Civil War cost over 70 times what the, then current, federal budget expenditure figure was. It increased the national debt by a factor of 3000% in 5 years!
The grimmest consideration regarding the above statistics is that they do not include the loss of earning power to families from the dead and wounded, the terrible property destruction, the loss in civil liberties [Habeas Corpus, for example] which were necessary to prosecute the war, and the inflationary destabilizing effects brought about by the huge expenditures - not to mention the very real and bitter hurt still felt, palpably and predominantly, in the South because of the war.
Enough about this mostly distant past - fast forward to the ‘50s and ‘60s, a time of revived concern over the status of Black Americans, especially in the South under oppressive jack-booted Democrat administrations.
The development of the modern Civil Rights movement is fascinating and wholly in keeping with the inherent goodness of the American people - in this case Blacks and concerned Whites joining hands to battle the vestiges of established, codified racialism, namely segregation and anti-Black poll practices.
The Civil Rights Act, passed by the power of Republican idealism, promised a color blind society, and close on the heels of this pivotal piece of legislation came Lyndon Johnson’s mammoth Great Society, firmly establishing the big government, top down, command economy model - yet another propitiation offered at the footstep slavery.
The price tag of the Great Society is still being computed, as many of the inefficient feel good programs created in its wake still exist - let's take a conservative figure, say $6 Trillion dollars - which just happens to be the size of our current national debt. Now of course not all of it represents direct transfer payments to Black America but it is hard to envision this huge alphabet soup concoction getting passed without the moralistic fervor surrounding the desire to finally put slavery behind us.
So what validity do the claims of modern day race baiters have?
Not much in our opinion.
America's moral outrage destroyed, once and for all, the underpinnings of slavery worldwide. There is simply no historical equivalent, anywhere in the world, to the effort that has been made to address the wrongs of slavery in the United States.
We have shed the blood of nearly 1 million combatants, ordered federal troops into racial "hot-spots", supported far-reaching legislation, given preferences based on color to those who were seen as victims of slavery, spent probably in excess of $6 trillion dollars in a vain attempt to improve their quality of life, all in an effort to make amends.
The most poverty stricken African American lives like a prince compared to his peers in Africa - his standard of living is much elevated as is access to health care, education and all of the opportunities afforded all in this great free land. He never has to deal with being hacked to death but a warring Tutsi or contracting Ebola.
His chances of being eaten alive by a lion or a crocodile are nill, and even if poor - a relative term - he still most likely owns two color television sets and a car.
The response?
An ever present squeaking - ingratitude to a degree that would be unthinkable were it not for our constantly being reminded of it by shucking and jiving pimps who use it for self promotion and as a fundraising tool. An entire industry has been created out of it allowing hucksters to blackmail US corporations for millions.
No currently living American has personally suffered the ill effects of slavery, no currently living American has ever owned a slave and the majority of slave importation took place over 250 years ago, what's going on here?
How far back do you go?
To the Neanderthals who were shoved aside by the more wily Cro Magnon?
Once you embark down that road, there is no stopping and it is obvious that despite unprecedented efforts to assuage what are now only the hurt feelings of people who have been programmed to view themselves solely as victims the effort has fallen on ears deafened by hate - hate engendered by the likes of married faux "Reverends" who impregnate staff members then use tax exempt funds to shut them up.
Spare me…please.
The time has long past for the majority in this society to tell these relatively few but vocal charlatans to shut the hell up and start working for it like everyone else - the price has been paid in extremis - you owe us.
William A. Mayer is Editor and Publisher of Pipe Bomb News, a weekly journal of political news and commentary. He is a regular columnist for Ether Zone.
-
Here I go into the PC doghouse again.
Statistically, the two income, black, family. Has an annual income average on a par with two income, white, families. Could it just be that the black males, that don't marry their pregnant girlfriends, are simply irresponsible. And they are causing the normal results of irresponsibility, for themselves, and their single mother, girlfriends.
-
After the Civil War, or the Second American Revolution, as we call it down South, the Union was formed and our Constitution was amended to make secession illegal. By following this line of thought, it would be unconstitutional to form a separate nation in the US. It was already tried by the Confederacy in 1861, the results of which formed one strong nation under God.
At this time, the United States did in fact establish what Farrahkan, et al, are asking for now in the African country of Liberia, so named after Liberty. This was done by way of reparations, so the former slaves could begin a new life and have their own country. This territory was, unlike the barren land deal the Indians got, prime farming land with a decent climate...a good place to live. Government agents from the US made every effort to ensure a high quality of life for the newly established country of Liberia.
Former slaves who remained here, did so because they wanted to, thus becoming Americans. It was their decision to remain, and I believe they made the right decision to do so. It was a courageous decision for them because of the segregation which we all know about. OTOH, they probably stayed because they liked it here, and who can blame 'em? At least in the South, it's a shame the contributions these Americans made are not more emphasized, because they contributed much to our way of life as it is today. The resentment of the past is based on very complex issues of the Reconstruction period, some of which were perceived by conquered Southerners as punitive measures fomented by the Yankees; f.g. placing "liberated" Negro slaves as high city officials, in the case of Mobile. That action was imo a disservice to the slaves, as they did not have the education to carry out a job like that. It was insulting to ALL Southerners, black and white, and was probably the start of serious racism in the South. Even if race wasn't an issue in this case, the people would be howling mad about their city not being attended to "getting back on its feet" after a terrible war.
Well, thanks for bearing with me with how I feel we are all Americans living here in the US.
Les
-
Originally posted by Leslie
At this time, the United States did in fact establish what Farrahkan, et al, are asking for now in the African country of Liberia, so named after Liberty. This was done by way of reparations,
Les
Now let's stick to the historical facts on Liberia.
History Of Liberia: A Time Line (http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/gmdhtml/libhtml/liberia.html)
"1822 - April 25 - The survivors of Sherbro Island arrived at Cape Mesurado and began to build their settlement. With the wavering consent of the new immigrants, the American Colonization Society governed the colony through its representative. ".......
....1865- 346 immigrants from Barbados joined the small number of African Americans coming to Liberia after the American Civil War. With overseas immigration slowing to a trickle, the Americo-Liberians (as the settlers and their descendents were starting to be called) depended on immigrants from nearby regions of Africa to increase the republic's population. The Americo-Liberians formed an elite and perpetuated a double-tiered social structure in which local African peoples could not achieve full participation in the nation's social, civic, and political life. The Americo-Liberians replicated many of the exclusions and social differentiations that had so limited their own lives in the United States. "
Might as well keep our facts straight.
-
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=1098
I'm still trying to figure out which side Horowitz is on... right or left...
He seems to make sense quite often, IMHO.
-
Thanks for the link Toad. I read enough to realise this project was not spur of the moment thinking, it's idea going back to 1814. Obviously, the project was ambitious, but failed to achieve the goal of starting a prosperous American friendly country in Africa.
Just from scanning through the link you provided, (which I have bookmarked), that region is in bad shape today, as is most of Africa. We don't hear much about what goes on there from the news media.
Louis Farrakan and his core supporters should be taken seriously. In my opinion, these are traitors to this country, and make a mockery of all we stand for. The timing is right... for them.
Les
-
No currently living American has personally suffered the ill effects of slavery, no currently living American has ever owned a slave and the majority of slave importation took place over 250 years ago, what's going on here?
The civil war could only be a great grandfather away for some people, and the U.S. Supreme Court only banned segregation in public schools in 1954.
While my Grandfather was catching a lift in a lancaster over the Reich, Black servicemen were serving in segregated units.
Martin Luther King Jr. was murdered two years before I was born.... we're not talking ancient history here.
-
the U.S. Supreme Court only banned segregation in public schools in 1954.
While my Grandfather was catching a lift in a lancaster over the Reich, Black servicemen were serving in segregated units.
Martin Luther King Jr. was murdered two years before I was born.... we're not talking ancient history here.
[/b]
and that would be related to slavery ...how?
-
Hortland;
how has Sweden accomodated the Laps? What special arrangements; if any; do they have to pursue their lifestyle; and how does that affect the average Swede?
Any Norwegian or Finnish posters have a perspective?
-
Originally posted by Hortlund
and that would be related to slavery ...how?
ullo, ullo anybody home...think McFly..think
we're not talking ancient history here.
Tronsky
-
So lets see, slavery ended in 1865?
Martin Luther King lived when?
The supreme court desicion came when?
Black servicemen were serving in segregated units when?
The reparations demands are about compensation for slavery yes?
So how is that related?
-
Originally posted by Seeker
Hortland;
how has Sweden accomodated the Laps? What special arrangements; if any; do they have to pursue their lifestyle; and how does that affect the average Swede?
Any Norwegian or Finnish posters have a perspective?
I have NO idea. I know they have their own "parliament" and I know that they hold their own elections. I also know that there are several laws in place to protect their right to roam the mountains with their raindeer flocks.
The laplanders does not affect the average Swede at all. When I was in the military I met some (since I was stationed up there north of the arcic circle), but they mostly keep to themselves.
-
20 white guys argee, black americans should not get reperations.
The best is Hortlund though. White Swede, at one with the african-american way of life.
And Kieran, you got your land, it's called a reservation.
-
Originally posted by Hortlund
So lets see, slavery ended in 1865?
Martin Luther King lived when?
The supreme court desicion came when?
Black servicemen were serving in segregated units when?
The reparations demands are about compensation for slavery yes?
So how is that related?
Black servicemen were serving in segregated units from the civil war till the Korean War (ie the Massachusetts 54th Volunteer Regiment, the Tuskee Airmen, 561st Tank Battalion)
Manpower and Segregation in the US Army in WW2 (http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwii/usarmy/manpower.htm)
Buffalo soldiers (http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/view/BB/qlb1.html)
Dr King 1929-1968
The supreme court desicion came in 1954
The reparations demands are about compensation for slavery yes?
Slavery and segregation are intertwined.
From the 1880s into the 1960s, a majority of American states enforced segregation through "Jim Crow" laws.
Examples of Jim Crow laws (http://www.nps.gov/malu/documents/jim_crow_laws.htm)
(http://www.jimcrowhistory.org/images/gallery/coloredadm10cents.jpg)
(http://www.jimcrowhistory.org/images/gallery/coloredwaitingline.jpg)
The History of Jim Crow (http://www.jimcrowhistory.org/)
Tronsky
-
We should send em back to africa where black people treat each other with dignity and respect. I agree that they will never be treated as equals in mean ol U.S.A. But then... I couldn't care less what happens to em.
When my grandfater came here from scotland he got to work in a coal mine for 14 hours a day and paid in co. script of which he allways "owed" a balance at the co. store. The did let him have a little shack close to the mines tho.
lazs
-
no thrawn.... the "best" is some limey and ozzy telling Americans what they ought to do...
I was around the south during "colored section" and "colored fountains"... It woulda died a natural death in any case.
lazs
-
"I was around the south during "colored section" and "colored fountains"... It woulda died a natural death in any case. "
You have no idea if it would have died a natural death or not. That's just a guess.
-
it was dying as I watched. Most whites were ignoring it because it was clumsy and... they were actually embarassed by it. Television was coming of age and kids growing up didn't want to be associated with their parents ideas. They wanted to be more "hollywood". This was before any march. In any case.. you couldn't see much from your foggy little isle anyway.
lazs
-
Originally posted by Thrawn
20 white guys argee, black americans should not get reperations.
The best is Hortlund though. White Swede, at one with the african-american way of life.
And Kieran, you got your land, it's called a reservation.
I'm all for slavery reparations. We went to their lands and stole them away from their family and friends. I say our "slavery reparations" is a one way ticket back to the land of plenty- mother Africa, complete with tigers and lions & a funny looking green, red and black striped hat.
(http://www.flagline.com/images/us-african-american-flag.gif)
get a life, get a job and stop looking for a hand out!
-
Originally posted by Hortlund
and that would be related to slavery ...how? [/B]
You're joking right? You certainly must be intelligent enough to see a connection between the Jim Crow laws of the 50's and 60's and the continuing racism in this country with the ONLY race to be held as slaves.
Like I said. You can't give reparations to former slaves. You can give reparations to those who were harmed by racist laws and institutions. What about the thousands who were unable to attend a State University in the South? Or were effectively barred from home ownership due to laws on the books supporting segregation?
-
"In any case.. you couldn't see much from your foggy little isle anyway. "
Is this representitive of the the type of education people recieve in the south?
Canada isn't an island. What's more it isn't small either, as it's the second largest country in the world. But I wouldn't expect a Mexican to know that.
Edit: It seems that some people are forgetting that it's not the black peoples fault they were made slaves. It's not like the slave owners are blameless here. Nor the governments, institutions and companies that supported and profitted by slavery.
-
I think the problem would be solved with "Volunteer White man-Guilt-Complex" Americans can step forward and start a fund for the reparations. Then they can divide the money up after a few years.
I was not voting when those laws were in force. Don't take MY money for it.
-
I say figure out what we owe and to whom (although this is such a ridiculous impossible task). Then friggin pay it. Then the old "poor me" mentaility might disappear once and for all.
and by the way...this white boy is gonna make some money from this event...I will invest in gold just prior to the payments being made...'cause gold chains are going to be in real short supply afterwards.
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
I think the problem would be solved with "Volunteer White man-Guilt-Complex" Americans can step forward and start a fund for the reparations. Then they can divide the money up after a few years.
I was not voting when those laws were in force. Don't take MY money for it.
So you think we shouldn't have paid the Japanese for the internment camps either? You weren't around for that.
-
Nope. That was opening up Pandora's box.
-
Originally posted by Elfenwolf
You look at the deplorable conditions African Americans have had to endure throught their American history from the past to the present and it's no wonder they're pissed. They've been kept "on the plantation" for over 400 years now, and at some point we have to admit our failings and offer the olive branch of financial restitution to African Americans.
Admitting to the horrible conditions of their ancestors, the poorest Americans, African ancestry or not, are much better off than the average inhabitant of the Ivory Coast, Congo, or Nigeria.
Our ancestors of whatever heritage built a better life for us, and 500,000 Americans (of the 15 million that existed) lost their lives in our bloodiest war. What of their contribution toward "reparations" to the African race.
If we were to vote for reparations, what portion should go to Blacks of mixed ancestry? Should a 17/32 black get a 17/32 share? That brings up a whole new can of worms...
And what of the majority (I assume) of Americans of a more recent heritage? Should someone whose family arrived in the mass influx of Europeans thru Ellis island pay nothing, or a lesser share than one who can directly trace a branch of their family to a plantation owner?
And what if someone can trace their ancestry to the slave revolt of Spartucus? Does Italy owe them? Will Egypt pay the Jews for Moses?
Just a few things to think about...
-
I'm curious
Do the family members for former Nazi's get free college in Germany?
God knows, with the way minorities cry here in the USA, they'd be a shoe-in for oddles for grant money here. Those poor, misunderstand and victimized minorities, you know....
Hey Farakahn, go to a few mass Civil War burial grounds and yell to the graves what you feel you are "owed" They fought for your rights.
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Nope. That was opening up Pandora's box.
No it didn't!
We have a long history of trying to right wrongs through reparations. (Look at the Indian reservations)
I suggest we all look at what happened to the "financially well to do" Blacks in Tulsa in 1921. An entire community was wiped out! all lost homes, businesses and lives. Yes many are still alive who remember.
-
Here, I'll make it easy. Just fill in the blanks and I'll be right over to claim my land.
=============================================
IN AND FOR THE COURT OF ENGLAND, OR OTHER TRIBUNAL SO OTHERWISE ESTABLISHED
COMES NOW...the Claimaint, GoFaster, being of Scottish heritage, and having a residence in a former colony of England and current independent nation of the United States of America, to make the following Claims:
Claim One: That his great-grandfather, GreatGranPa GoFaster, was subjected to the moral crime of political and religious persecution by the British government and the British government-endorsed Church of England, and such moral crime bearing no statute of limitations due to the fact that, during the temporal period of the moral crime, it was not a crime recognized by the British government, but was otherwise a crime against morality.
Claim Two: That his great-grandfater, GreatGranPa GoFaster, sought refuge from political and religious persecution so described in Claim One above, and did emigrate from Scotland to the former English colony and current independent nation of the United States of America.
Claim Three: That due to the religious persecution so mentioned in Claim One, that GreatGranPa GoFaster, and his heirs, descendents, and other beings lawfully entitled to proceeds of the GoFaster estate, were wrongfully denied ownership of their land, property, and other chattel, and were rendered to a state of poverty prior to emigration from the great nation of Scotland.
WHEREFORE the Claimant, GoFaster, seeks awards for damages regarding losses incurred by said actions of the nation of England, in an amount to be determined to be the equivalent of GreatGranPa GoFaster's farm, with the calculated increases to wealth and property so determined by calculating the average increase in wealth for the great nation of Scotland.
WHEREFORE the Claimant, GoFaster, further seeks restoration of citizenship to the Crown, with the rights, privileges, and benefits entitled thereupon, including the right to bear royal title.
SO ORDERED AND DECREED THIS ________ Day of _________ by the ORDER of THE HONORABLE __________________________ .
-
Time of war. Safety of the American public was the concept. It was wrong, but it was a knee jerk reaction. We didn't burn them, torture them. I worked with a Japanese intern from 1987 to 1990 (when he retired), he said because of pride of always being able to take care of themselves without Gov't hand outs(reparations) they turned down the (I think $25,000 check?) from the Gov't. Even though he's Japanese, he joked "We dun need no steek'in handouts". I admired that man. Worked for everything he got.
-
A little History:
Forty acres and a mule. The original reparations package.
On Jan. 16, 1865, four days after meeting with black ministers in Savannah, Ga., Gen. William T. Sherman issued Special Field Order No. 15. Thousands and thousands of newly liberated slaves were fleeing plantations and following his Union Army through Georgia. This was becoming a problem.
So with the War Department's blessing, Sherman set aside land along the Georgia and South Carolina coasts for black settlement. Each family was to receive 40 acres, and Sherman later offered the loan of Army mules. Word of this deal spread throughout the South, and within six months 40,000 freed blacks had settled on hundreds of thousands of acres of land.
Several months later Congress passed a bill establishing the Freedmen's Bureau to oversee the transition of blacks from slavery to freedom. The bureau had under its control 850,000 acres of abandoned and confiscated land, and it had men such as Gen. Rufus Saxton, a former abolitionist who was committed to creating a class of black landowners. But that summer President Andrew Johnson began allowing former Confederates to reclaim their property.
This would become history's pattern in succeeding decades: As blacks sought to obtain their due, every small advance, it seemed, was trumped by a setback. Lawmakers such as Rep. Thaddeus Stevens introduced reparations bills in Congress in 1866 and 1867. No luck. In 1915, Cornelius Jones sued the U.S. government, arguing that it had profited from slave labor through a federal tax on cotton. Since the slaves had never been paid, Jones calculated they were owed $68 million.
-
Seems like alot of people are against reparations, because it would be too much work involved in figuring out who is owed what? Do believe that justice should be strived for as long as it is easy and dropped when it seems like there is going some difficulty?
-
Midnight, should we give the Irish some reparations while we're at it? Who's next? Maybe the Polish for the jokes we pained them thru?
-
Canada and Australia have had their own share.....
In 1988, Congress apologized to Japanese Americans interned in camps during World War II and authorized payments of $20,000 each to roughly 60,000 survivors. Canada followed with its own apology and a $230 million reparations package to Japanese Canadians. All of the sudden, the notion of winning reparations for black Americans didn't seem so crazy.
Research revealed other examples of reparations. The German government has paid $60 billion to settle claims from victims of Nazi persecution. Various groups of Eskimos, Native Americans, Aleuts and survivors of a 1923 massacre in a predominantly black Florida town have also received restitution--combined, more than $1 billion. In Australia, the government has apologized for its treatment of Aborigines after an official inquiry called it genocide. Compensation is being negotiated.
This didn't start with the Japanese.
-
Originally posted by lazs2
We should send em back to africa where black people treat each other with dignity and respect. ....
See the history of Liberia, established during the presidency of James Monroe.
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Midnight, should we give the Irish some reparations while we're at it? Who's next? Maybe the Polish for the jokes we pained them thru?
Are you suggesting that the Irish and the Poles had JUST AS MUCH to overcome? Paaleeez!
-
Researchers at the University of California at Berkeley put the gains of whites from labor market discrimination--just from 1929 to 1969--at $1.6 trillion in present-day dollars.
-
Originally posted by Thrawn
It seems that some people are forgetting that it's not the black peoples fault they were made slaves.
Yes it is. Slaves from Africa were people captured through wars with other black tribes and nomadic North Africans, then transported to the western coast for trade as property. White people didn't venture into the interior during that period of time just to capture slaves. If they did, it was for exploration for ivory, diamonds, or other raw materials that were easier to obtain and transport. Therefore, it was a slave's fault he was a slave because he wasn't strong enough to resist his enemies.
Look beyond the high-school American history books and you'll get a better understanding of how the world worked prior to the Civil War.
-
Let me rephrase. It's not the black slaves fault, that they were slaves.
-
Originally posted by midnight Target
Are you suggesting that the Irish and the Poles had JUST AS MUCH to overcome? Paaleeez!
By what measurement are you using as a standard of "overcoming" ?
-
Originally posted by midnight Target Researchers at the University of California at Berkeley put the gains of whites from labor market
discrimination--just from 1929 to 1969--at $1.6 trillion in present-day dollars.
LOL! Berkeley! ROTFLOL!!!
-
allowing RAP on the airwaves is enough "reparations"
this reparation crap is just another ploy for a poor excuse of a leader to be elected/empowered by a poor excuse of a human being
-
If anyone can prove I owned a Black person then I will be gald to pay. Till then STFU and get a job you lazy whinney bellybutton no good MFers!!!
-
Originally posted by Eagler
I'm all for slavery reparations. We went to their lands and stole them away from their family and friends. I say our "slavery reparations" is a one way ticket back to the land of plenty- mother Africa, complete with tigers and lions & a funny looking green, red and black striped hat.
(http://www.flagline.com/images/us-african-american-flag.gif)
get a life, get a job and stop looking for a hand out!
Uh...Eagler, are you aware that the average African American citizen can trace his roots back in America 400 years? Did you know that the average European American can trace their lineage in America back only 200 years? So, uh- since "they" were here first, maybe WE should all get a one way ticket back to Europe.
And Gofaster is right. If those Africans didn't want to become slaves they should have run faster. It's their own damn fault they werre enslaved, seperated from parents, spouces and children and otherwise brutalized.
-
Originally posted by gofaster
Yes it is. Slaves from Africa were people captured through wars with other black tribes and nomadic North Africans, then transported to the western coast for trade as property. White people didn't venture into the interior during that period of time just to capture slaves. If they did, it was for exploration for ivory, diamonds, or other raw materials that were easier to obtain and transport. Therefore, it was a slave's fault he was a slave because he wasn't strong enough to resist his enemies.
Look beyond the high-school American history books and you'll get a better understanding of how the world worked prior to the Civil War.
The fact that there were Black collaberators in the slave trade doesn't diminish the issue at all. There were Jewish collaborators in the Holocaust too. This doesn't diminish the horrific nature of that crime.
-
Originally posted by Mighty1
If anyone can prove I owned a Black person then I will be gald to pay. Till then STFU and get a job you lazy whinney bellybutton no good MFers!!!
ROFL.... case dismissed. The Might have spoken.
-
Originally posted by Thrawn
Let me rephrase. It's not the black slaves fault, that they were slaves.
Yes, it is. If they had resisted their tribal enemies better, or been able to thwart the attacks of the North Africans, then they wouldn't have been slaves in the first place. If the Knights had been successful, we wouldn't have lost NDIsles last night. Can I claim some perk points as reparation for oppression by the Bishops?
As far as I know, the US stopped transporting slaves when it became illegal to do so.
The funny thing about land is, there's a finite amount of it. So if the US gov't awarded land, where would it come from? Who would get dibs on Yosemite? The Grand Canyon? The federal timber reserves in the northwest?
On the other hand, who would claim their acreage in the badlands of Oklahoma? The abandoned nuclear test sites in New Mexico?
The other side of the coin: why should we, as a taxpayers, pay for the crimes of our ancestors? How many blacks can stand up and say "yeah, toting those bails of cotton with a whip at my back was hard!"? My grandfather worked for the railroad. My father was an attorney. We didn't own slaves. We didn't even have a farm. My other grandfather was a farmer, but too poor to even hire help. He didn't own slaves, either.
At best, this is a publicity ploy by Louis Farrakhan. At worst, its an attempt by a select few to grab the treasures of the many. The US gov't doesn't generate its own wealth - its wealth comes from the taxpayers. Louis wants your money!
-
What's with all the "I'M NOT GOING TO PAY!" chit?? Who the hell asked you to?? I imagine that they would get the governments, institutions, slave owners that are still alive (none) and companies, that supported and profitted from slavery to pay.
-
Originally posted by Thrawn
What's with all the "I'M NOT GOING TO PAY!" chit?? Who the hell asked you to?? I imagine that they would get the governments, institutions, slave owners that are still alive (none) and companies, that supported and profitted from slavery to pay.
When a company is asked to pay, who actually pays Thrawn?
-
I wasn't responsible for it, the people who are asking for it are not, and were not, slaves.
I do not owe them anything, nor are they owed anything but an equal chance at creating a living for themselves, period! Lump sump pay-off money does not accomplish this in the slightest.
My father-in-law came to this country without speaking a word of English and 2 young kids (at that time). He was discriminated against, but still was able to accomplish the following without any handouts---
1.)Found gameful employment even though that meant walking to and from work (he couldn't afford a car at that time).
2.)Eventually bought the business he was working for.
3.)Eventually bought the 6-family apartment house he used to be a rentor in.
4.)Eventually purchased other rental property in the same area.
5.)Put all 3 of his daughters through college and set 1 daughter up in her own business (I didn't marry that one...doh! :) ).
6.)Sold his business and retired early.
He did this because he wasn't going to wait for someone to hand it to him. Nor should he have expected that.
Immigrants from all nations come to this country and do very well indeed. They are discriminated against as well. They do so, because the opportunity is here and they take advantage of the opportunity, not looking in the past and blaming their ills on things that no longer apply in the force it did in the past.
The ills may still slightly linger, but look at it....who has the most vested interest in making it linger....Jackson, Farahkan, Sharpton, etc. This is THEIR money ticket. It pays for these few to keep the pot stirred. Without this, they become irrelevant, and they know it. It is in THEIR agenda to keep tension between the races, or else the gravy train will end for them.
I don't buy this hand-wringing crap. You can't seriously tell me that opportunity does not exist for the african-american. It does for the immigrant from India, Pakistan, Taiwan, Vietnam, Korea, Europe, etc.
Cobra
**Edit--BTW, please don't let that stop anyone from voluntarily writing a personal check to this fund. In fact, please do, give this fund your live savings for all I care. I would think with all of Thrawn's hand-wringing, he will immediately setup a portion of his weekly check. That way he can really help instead of just typing self-righteous indignation crap on a BBS where it doesn't mean toejam.
Just don't expect that I will be mandated into doing this. It sucked, it shouldn't have happened, and it was wrong. Guess what.....life is wrong sometimes, and good intentions WELL AFTER the fact won't change that.
Cash pay-offs never change that. Making sure race dies as an issue will cure that. That will truly be pay-back for those who suffered long ago. What better legacy can we, or they, have then to truly make race a non-issue. Money in the form of pay-off doesn't accomplish this in the slightest.
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
When a company is asked to pay, who actually pays Thrawn?
Bingo. Right on the nose.
By the way, for those seeking their 40 acres, I hear there's some zoned, developed land, with full utilities, ready for new construction available in the Bronx, south central Los Angeles, the bad side of Chicago, sections of Detroit, urban Miami, Dallas, Trenton, Bridgeport, and Washington DC. Proof of slavery oppression required.
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
When a company is asked to pay, who actually pays Thrawn?
It's my understanding they plan to confinscate all the BMWs in North America and give them to African Americans. This seems more than fair to me.
-
By that logic no one should be allowed to sue companies.
LOL!!
-
thrawn... tell you what.. When limey land pays back all the peoples it has wronged over the last 400 years or so then we will start talking about blacks in the U.S. with you. Yeah... reparations are fine so long as it is only the U.S. that has to pay em eh?
and it is a foggy little isle that is becoming smaller and less relevant all the time.
and no... I don't think we should have paid reparations to the japanesse. I can't imagine them doing so if the situation were reversed.
lazs
-
"The other side of Roman decadence was the dole. Millions spent on bread (including pork by the end of the second century) and circuses for the non-working poor. "
-
Lazs, are you stupid or illiterate? For the second time, I'm not a brit.
-
Originally posted by Thrawn
Lazs, are you stupid or illiterate? For the second time, I'm not a brit.
If you aren't a Brit then why are your teeth so bad????
-
Originally posted by Thrawn
Lazs, are you stupid or illiterate? For the second time, I'm not a brit.
So theres an Atlantic ocean difference, what of it? :D
-
Once Again.
There are plenty of living breathing Black American citizens who have had property and or opportunity withheld or taken from them over the years WITH THE CONSENT OF THE GOVERNMENT. What about them?
If the Government takes your house, do you expect payment? If the police break in and burn it down ... by accident, do you expect to be reimbursed? If you were kicked out of college for no good reason, would you just shrug your shoulders and shuffle along?
:rolleyes:
-
Originally posted by midnight Target
Once Again.
There are plenty of living breathing Black American citizens who have had property and or opportunity withheld or taken from them over the years WITH THE CONSENT OF THE GOVERNMENT. What about them?
If the Government takes your house, do you expect payment? If the police break in and burn it down ... by accident, do you expect to be reimbursed? If you were kicked out of college for no good reason, would you just shrug your shoulders and shuffle along?
:rolleyes:
So we pay every black american for a few that had this happened to? Sounds reasonable...not.
-
Originally posted by Thrawn
Lazs, are you stupid or illiterate? For the second time, I'm not a brit.
You're not an American black slave, either.
-
Originally posted by Elfenwolf
If you aren't a Brit then why are your teeth so bad????
In order to understand the beaver better, I've taken to nawing on trees.
Jeez, we aren't even in Yurop.
-
Originally posted by midnight Target
Once Again.
There are plenty of living breathing Black American citizens who have had property and or opportunity withheld or taken from them over the years WITH THE CONSENT OF THE GOVERNMENT. What about them?
They can cut-n-paste the claim form I posted further up this thread, and just change the names, the country, and the nature of the persecution, and submit it, along with the proper filing fee, to their local federal court clerk. See, I've done all the hard work for them!
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
So we pay every black american for a few that had this happened to? Sounds reasonable...not.
No we shouldn't pay every Black American. Attacking Farakhan is just too easy in this case. There are issues here that deserve our time and that is the real agenda.
-
Originally posted by gofaster
They can cut-n-paste the claim form I posted further up this thread, and just change the names, the country, and the nature of the persecution, and submit it, along with the proper filing fee, to their local federal court clerk. See, I've done all the hard work for them!
Your (admittedly well written) claim was for reparations to you for wrongs done to your Great Grandfather. I'm talking about direct compensation to LIVING people who were wronged directly.
-
Originally posted by midnight Target
If the Government takes your house, do you expect payment?
Yes. By law, the government must pay compensation for seized properties, even for the cause of eminent domain. This is real popular with DOTs for various states trying to push down new roads.
Originally posted by midnight Target
If the police break in and burn it down ... by accident, do you expect to be reimbursed?
Yes, in civil court for wrongful damages equal to the value of the property as accepted by the courts. The city may then seek compensation from its employees if policy permits it (sure wouldn't want to be a cop, let me tell ya). A side FYI: a cop can lose his job if he gets injured while performing his duties. Boo!
Originally posted by midnight Target
If you were kicked out of college for no good reason, would you just shrug your shoulders and shuffle along?
No. By law, a school must show grounds for dismissal. An action may be brought against the school and a determination be made by court or arbitrator as agreed-upon by the parties. Such grounds for dismissal may include conducting a public disturbance, disruption of curricular activities, or violation of the student code of conduct, as provided to all incoming students. Conviction for committing a felony crime, whether the crime was against the school or not, is sufficient for dismissal.
-
Originally posted by midnight Target
There are issues here that deserve our time and that is the real agenda.
who's agenda? Yours? It's definitely not the agenda of the majority of the people asking for reparations. Their agenda is to get reparations not only for those living (such as those held out of a State University due to race), but for any descendants of slaves no matter what their current financial situation is. If they had their way, Barry Bonds would be due a reparation check.
-
Originally posted by Thrawn
Seems like alot of people are against reparations, because it would be too much work involved in figuring out who is owed what? Do believe that justice should be strived for as long as it is easy and dropped when it seems like there is going some difficulty?
Okay...you make a good point.
But, an example of some of the confusion:
A white slave owner rapes a young slave girl. She gets pregnant. The off-spring is half black...half plantation owner. That child has a child with a native American, who in turn has a child with an Irish Catholic. The offspring from this conception has a child with a black person.
The child born is now a mish-mash of races. How much in the way of reparations should be paid to this family. By all rights any award should be divided by 2 from the start as the initial offspring was half white...or should it be doubled becuase of the rape?
Let's say I have 1/1,000 % of my blood that is black. Do I get something too? I am white...or look that way...but I have black blood in me.
Many would argue "Yes, absolutely...you should get 1/1,000 of a male award." But, I have had this argument with a black guy who said "No, you are white and had all the advantages of the white man's world..you should get nothing."
Which is it?
You shouldn't give up on something merely because it is difficult...but at some point you need to decide if that same task is impossible.
-
Originally posted by Nifty
who's agenda? (snip
If they had their way, Barry Bonds would be due a reparation check.
ROTFLOL!
-
Slavery and jim crow arent the same thing. There have been forms of "jim crow" laws all over the world and in most nations. Racism against asians, hispanics, etc have nothing to do with slavery. Why should we believe that racism directed toward blacks is result of slavery?
Most people in america didnt own slaves. The southern and frontier dirt farmers suffered as a result of slavery. The plantation owner could produce more cheaper. They didnt have to hire out jobs to the poor farmers. Slavery wasnt a benefit to all white people. Most suffered as a result of it. To then say all white people owe them something is bs or that every citizen today owes them something is also bs. My moms dad didnt come to america until the 30s. My moms mother was an english war brid and my mother herself was born in conventry right after the war. My dads relatives were irish and never owned a slave. Their children owe nothing for slavery. Thats where the money comes from. The Government will confiscate my money to pay for something that I had nothing to do with.
There were plenty of white slaves and slaves of other ethnic back grounds who were enslaved through "indentured servitude"
Historian Philip Curtin estimates that the total slave trade from Africa to the Western Hemisphere amounted to 9,566,000 people, the largest forced migration in all history. The 4,700,000 taken to South America accounted for half of the entire trade. The 4,040,000 who went to the West Indies represented more than 40 percent. By comparison, the British colonies/United States received roughly 399,000. South America imported nearly 12 slaves and the West Indies imported more than 10 slaves for every slave who went to North America.
White indentured servitude was slavery as well.
It has been alleged that after his military campaigns in Ireland, Cromwell sent an estimated 50,000-80,000 Irish woman and children into slavery in the West Indies.
In "From Columbus To Castro" by Eric Williams.
"The matter was debated on March 25, 1659, the petition of 72 Englishmen 'now in slavery in the Barbados' which claimed that "7,000-8,000 Scots taken prisoner at the battle of Worcester in 1651 were sold to the British plantations in the New World. In 1640, 200 Frenchmen were kidnapped, concealed and sold in Barbados for 900 pounds of cotton each."
MacManus estimates the total number sent to the West Indies (over the period ? to ?) at 30,000-80,000. He goes on to say:
"Because the far greater proportion of the Irish who were able to bear arms had been killed off, few young men now remained to Ireland. And of these few remaining young men, and of the young women and boys and girls, numbers were, during the following years shipped into slavery to the American Colonies and the West Indies. The number sent into slavery are variously estimated at between thirty and eighty thousand."
Abbot Emerson Smith estimated that between one-half to one-third of all white immigrants to the British colonies, between the Puritan migration of the 1630s and the Revolution came under indenture. Not to mention the number of "criminals" sentenced to labor in the colonies. There were large number of asians and native indians who were indentured.
England created and maintained the colonies to help supply her growing markets - once it became clear that there was not a huge amount of gold in the colonies, the products were primarily agricultural: first tobacco, then cotton. A chronic labor shortage, crude tools and the need to open previously undeveloped land on a vast scale made some kind of forced labor inevitable. In the early years, much colonial labor was done by white indentured servants - men, women, sometimes whole families - who exchanged five to seven years of labor for the passage to the New World and the right to plots of land after the bondage period expired. Great profits were made from indentured servitude: Selling labor contracts, shipping of the cargo of virtually free labor, the product of the labor itself. Black slaves were first introduced into colonial America in the early 1600s as a complement to white indentured servitude. But black chattel slavery soon eclipsed indenture, because slavery generated much higher rates of profit, both from what could be driven out of slave labor and from the international and domestic trade in slaves.
If anything sue the British.
Slavery still happens today in africa and has been apart of the worlds history. At one time or another most races were enslaved by another. There is nothing more horrible about black slavery then any other.
The interment of japaneese americans is completely different in that they were citizens and were denied their rights as citizens. Lincolns Emancipation Proclamation simply freed slaves who were to that point property and did not have the same rights as the japaneese americans interned during ww2.
No doudt this will upset the white guilt ridden liberals. Let them set up a fund and donate their own money dont steal mine or any of the other peoples who had nothing to do with slavery.
-
Originally posted by Curval
Let's say I have 1/1,000 % of my blood that is black. Do I get something too? I am white...or look that way...but I have black blood in me.
Written like a fellow Carib! ;)
The calculation gets even more difficult when the children don't know who their father was and their mother doesn't either.
I guess its a good thing Florida has an A+ guy running DCF so that the problem of absentee fathers will be eliminated.
-
Sue the British?
I think you will find that the British were the ones who "came around" on the whole slavery issue and actually sent warships to the African coast to destroy the slave factories and the slave trade. It was the Spanish, Dutch and Portugese that kept it up until the very end.
I'm not saying that the British were angels...far from it...but point all your fingers where they should be pointed...not just one.
-
I got an idea. Let some like the ACLU sue for the reparations, come up with a relatively fair number man hours work etc. And let them worry about the headaches and subsequent lawsuits of proper distribution. How could distribution be the governments problem anyway. They would probably be named in the case.
Wouldn't it be the courts problem?
-
Okay lets use some facts. No americans were taking salves from africa. Africans were taking own people selling them to Dutch.
Second at end civil war America offered to send any salve who wanted to go back to africa free passage, less than 1% went home.Now if you stay knowing how you could be treated its your choice.
there are a lot of people who came here and were treated unfair. They stuck it out and today live in peace. Including Blacks, which are the most protected race in america.
Now for facts read Abe lincolns address before war :::http://members.aol.com/jfepperson/newhaven.html
Explain this how could a lot of blacks make a great living in 1700's thru 2000. BECAUSE THEY WORKED FOR IT AND BUILT SOMETHING.
Take Benjamn Banneker Parents both salves and in 1700's he was one of the richest men in maryland.
Benjamin Banneker was born in Maryland on November 9, 1731. His father and grandfather were former slaves.
A farmer of modest means, Banneker nevertheless lived a life of unusual achievement. In 1753, the young man borrowed a pocket watch from a well-to-do neighbor; he took it apart and made a drawing of each component, then reassembled the watch and returned it, fully functioning, to its owner.
From his drawings Banneker then proceeded to carve, out of wood, enlarged replicas of each part. Calculating the proper number of teeth for each gear and the necessary relationships between the gears, he constructed a working wooden clock that kept accurate time and struck the hours for over 50 years.
At age 58, Banneker began the study of astronomy and was soon predicting future solar and lunar eclipses. He compiled the ephemeris, or information table, for annual almanacs that were published for the years 1792 through 1797. "Benjamin Banneker's Almanac" was a top seller from Pennsylvania to Virginia and even into Kentucky.
In 1791, Banneker was a technical assistant in the calculating and first-ever surveying of the Federal District, which is now Washington, D.C.
The "Sable Astronomer" was often pointed to as proof that African Americans were not intellectually inferior to European Americans. Thomas Jefferson himself noted this in a letter to Banneker.
Daniel Hale Williams, Benjamin Banneker, Jean Baptiste du Sable ,
George Washington Carver, Granville Woods, George Washington Bush,Lloyd Quarterman, Elijah McCoy ,Matthew Henson ,
Percy Julian Jan Matzeliger Guion Bluford, Jr.
Charles Drew. Madame C. J. Walker ,Dr. Patricia Bath Garrett Morgan, James West , Mark Dean Can list many more.
OUT OF BONDAGE: FROM THE ANALS OF THE AMERICAN MISSIONARY ASSOCIATION, THE STORY OF THE HEROIC SLAVE MUTINY ABOARD THE AMISTAD
WARREN MARR II
CAPTURE
Near the northern borders of Sierra Leone, several Africans (employed by a Portuguese slave trader) slipped from the woods and overpowered Cinque as he cultivated his crops. They bound and gagged the muscular young man, and forced him to hike with them for several days through the immense stands of tropical trees and lush undergrowth to a sprawling stockade at the river's delta, not far from the Atlantic Ocean.
They shoved him into the compound, where somebody cut his bonds and left him standing, bewildered, among a herd of men and women whom he had never seen and whose mildly curious faces registered both fear and uncertainty. One thing about the captives was immediately apparent: they had been chosen because of their youth and physical perfection. This was the human merchandise of one of the few remaining slave traders who, in 1839, was still successful in outwitting the British slave patrol.
And if you see at rally Not once did they Use Martin luther King's name. That was because he didn't believe in hand outs. He thought that Blacks getting welfare and other programs were hurting not helping. below is a quote by him from his web site.
"In the treatment of poverty nationally, one fact stands out: there are twice as many white poor as Negro poor in the United States. Therefore I will not dwell on the experiences of poverty that derive from racial discrimination, but will discuss the poverty that affects white and Negro alike.
Up to recently we have proceeded from a premise that poverty is a consequence of multiple evils: lack of education restricting job opportunities; poor housing which stultified home life and suppressed initiative; fragile family relationships which distorted personality development. The logic of this approach suggested that each of these causes be attacked one by one. Hence a housing program to transform living conditions, improved educational facilities to furnish tools for better job opportunities, and family counseling to create better personal adjustments were designed. In combination these measures were intended to remove the causes of poverty".
Now If you say reparations for those that were Killed. I'm all for it.
Most blacks use this Quote to support reparations.40 ACRES AND A mule. nOW COST OF 40 acres and a mule was put at 43,000 dollars in 1993 by Essunce magazine (black magazine).
Never did The Goverment of The United States say every salve was to get 40 acres and a mule. What happen was a Union General gave Some blacks 40 acres and a mule after war. Because he thought they deserved to get a start.
Rally had 3000 people and most of those were bussed in. Only ones getting money are the lawyers including AL SHARPETON who passed around a bucket to get legal fee's for reparations. ONLY aFool would give lawyers money if they thought it was legal or had chance to get reparations they would do it on a contengince fee plan. So think hard No one was force to stay here after 1865 so reparations for those who decided to stay is dumb. If you want to win go to sorce Sue african nations who took salves and sold them to salve traders.
-
Originally posted by sidthekid
OUT OF BONDAGE: FROM THE ANALS OF THE AMERICAN MISSIONARY ASSOCIATION,
Is this a gay porn thing? :D
Seriously...careful when you say that "no Americans were taking slaves"...to every rule there is ALWAYS an exception.
-
well gee thrawn... I guess what confused me was the picture of fat assed limey royalty on your money and all the british flags I see around canada. The passport was kinda incriminating as was the lack of dental care also.
lazs
-
I am talking about The british colonies in america curval. Thats what this whole raparation thing is about. Blacks in america wanting a handout for simply existing. They werent slaves. Half of them would have died at birth in a dung hut somewhere in the african bush.
The british if anyone bare the responsibility for slavery in north america.
These people wont file a law suite for raparations because they would loose. They will simply use the same sort of racial blackmail technique they perfected against corporations.
I have no problem with guilt ridden liberals wanting to give away their money but they never do that. They steal it from good hard working folks to pay for their "feelings". Imagine if all the wealthy libs got together and gave away every dollar they earned to satisfy their guilt. Think that will happen?
-
Oh okay, so we're the stupid ones, because you can't tell the difference between the huge fediddlein land mass to the north of you, and a relatively small island in Europe.
-
The US government withholds opportunity and property from me every 2 weeks. Sumsqueakes call it income tax. Where's my @#$@#$ reparations?
-
Has anybody else noticed that gofaster, Eagler, Nifty and Wotan- the most outspoken against repreations for African Americans- all live in Florida, a State that allows the whipping of children? Intresting.
-
Originally posted by Elfenwolf
Has anybody else noticed that gofaster, Eagler, Nifty and Wotan- the most outspoken against repreations for African Americans- all live in Florida, a State that allows the whipping of children? Intresting.
Its not "whipping", its "whupping", you ignorant Californian!
-
Wotan...this isn't just about the United States..it is about world-wide reparations. The blacks in Bermuda are calling for reparations just as loudly as the blacks in the US.
Also, as mentioned above, it isn't just the British who were responsible....the Spanish actually should bear the brunt of resposibility for the slavery in the colonies...followed closely by the Dutch and the Portugese. The British IMHO are a distant fourth for that particular honour...and in fact the British, as already mentioned DID SOMETHING about slavery when it was deemed immoral and illegal. They sent their navy out to put an end the whole damn slave trade!
Why is everyone so hell bent on blaming the British these days for everything?
-
Originally posted by gofaster
Its not "whipping", its "whupping", you ignorant Californian!
No, Gofaster, it was "whipping" as in a bull whip. Basically it's OK to whip African American children in the State of Florida to the point where you can cause permanent scarring provided its your kid ... What are you going to do next, cut off their feet if they try to run away to escape the whippings?
-
Originally posted by Elfenwolf
What are you going to do next, cut off their feet if they try to run away to escape the whippings?
No, Elfie, they are going to make them take Bungee-Jumping lessons with you! :eek:
Cobra
-
HEHE!
-
'Oh okay, so we're the stupid ones, because you can't tell the difference between the huge fediddlein land mass to the north of you, and a relatively small island in Europe."
Well... that's not the only reason you are the stupid ones but it's a start. I do give you credit for driveing on the correct side of the road tho.
elf... But... wasn't the whipping a case of one black person whipping another? How can we as white people hope to condem the actions of a black person since we have no idea of what it is like to be black? We certainly would not want to call the act..... savage.
As for england and blame... big friggin deal... so they stopped the trade... that ment they went over and whupped a bunch of helpless blacks and didn't pay anyone a dime... In the U.S. we fought a monstrously expensive and bloody civil war and gave away land and mules.
lazs
-
but i dont care about the rest of the world. I am talking about us government payments to blacks here in america.
if burmuda pays umm that up to burmuda or england or the dutch or the french or to any of the arabs who started the african slave trade long before europeans entered the picture.
the british were the who governed the north american colonies. In jamestown there were 20 african slaves or so. the brits brought umm here.
-
Putting aside the nightmare of trying to decide who would pay reparations and who would receive them, there is no historical or moral precedent for reparations for slavery. The American Natives formed treaties with the US Federal government, resulting in land areas being recognized as their sovereign territories. Any other “reparations” were arranged at time the treaties’ were written and agreed to, and were made to the actual American Natives directly affected by US territorial expansion. Reparations to Japanese Americans were made to the actual American citizens held in the internment camps, or to their immediate children. As such, they had to show proof that they or their parents were interned. Simply being of Japanese decent was not sufficient to be awarded reparations. Jewish recipients of reparations from the German government again had to show that they or their parents actually lost property and/or their freedom to the Nazi regime. Simply being a Jew of European decent was insufficient to gain access to reparations. None of these things apply to the Blacks in America today, or to whites or other minorities who’s ancestors were victims of slavery.
According to a C-SPAN program (American Heritage Panel discussion) I was watching Saturday night, 75% of Blacks are now considered to be living at middle class or above. As such, it is hard to make the case that all or even most black Americans have been unable to overcome the affects of slavery. In the end, giving money to people simply because some of their distant ancestors were part of an ethnic group (and not the only one) that were numbered among slaves, is sending the wrong message to everyone…most especially to Black Americans. It reinforces the idea that they’re victims, powerless to affect their own condition.
The American people, through their government, have gone to great extremes to wipe away the vestiges of slavery. Far greater extremes in fact than any other nation that once did (or still does) endorsed or tolerated slavery. They have often gone beyond simply trying to create a level playing field by creating education assistance, housing assistance, racial quotas, and hiring preferences. In the end, those persons of minority decent that have prospered are those that stopped waiting around for a handout, took their fates and fortunes into their own hands, and embraced the American Dream.
Those that are beating the reparation drum (the non-elected, self-appointed Black Leadership) are not doing so in expectation of actually succeeding, in my opinion. They are pushing this issue so that, once it is struck down in the Capital and in the courts, they can have one more thing to point to and cry with righteous indignation, “See? The white men who govern you are racist, and holding you down. Flock to my banner and I will see that you get what they owe you!” In the end, even if reparations were paid, it would not silence those shrill voices. The only way to do so is to continue to strive for an America where Doctor King’s vision of equality for all (equality; not entitlements, not handouts) is realized to the fullest extent. Are we there yet? No. However, we’ve come far enough that I can envision that America. Reparations will not bring equality, only divisiveness.
-
Originally posted by lazs2
As for england and blame... big friggin deal... so they stopped the trade... that ment they went over and whupped a bunch of helpless blacks and didn't pay anyone a dime... In the U.S. we fought a monstrously expensive and bloody civil war and gave away land and mules.
lazs
Actually you DIDN'T give away land and mules...that is what all the fuss is about.
The civil war was not fought to free slaves either....did you learn that in school? Don't try and take the moral high ground on that issue please.
England did not just fight the blacks who were running the factories and who controlled the land on which they were built...they fought the Spanish, the Portugese and the Dutch...and a bunch of (Barbary) pirates while they were at it, to end slavery. This action COST the British government a bundle...why on earth would they "pay anyone a dime"?
-
Originally posted by Wotan
but i dont care about the rest of the world. I am talking about us government payments to blacks here in america.
Oh that's typical. The topic of the tread is "More repartation nonsense". Not "More reparation nonsense in the US". Curval's post is related. But hey if your post isn't about the US, I guess you can fek off, eh?
-
In every legislative session since 1989, Conyers has introduced a bill that would establish a commission to examine slavery and its lingering effects on African Americans and contemporary U.S. society. The commission would comprise historians, legal scholars, genealogists, economists, lawmakers--the brightest minds to be found. Hearings would be held across the country. A report would be issued with recommendations for Congress to act on. Should the U.S. government issue a formal apology for sanctioning slavery? Is a debt owed to the descendants of black people who helped build this country but spent their lives in forced servitude? These questions would be addressed.
Sounds reasonable enough.
and about Dr. King -
Even King took up the cause of government reparations for blacks, a little-known fact of his civil rights advocacy. In his 1963 book, "Why We Can't Wait," King wrote that while "no amount of gold could provide adequate compensation for the exploitation of the Negro in America down through the centuries," a price could be placed on unpaid wages.
King was perhaps on to something, but he also was very busy fighting battles on other fronts.
-
Hey, wait a minute!!
Money was worth alot more back then. For all we know the total cost might be something like ten bucks!
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
So we pay every black american for a few that had this happened to? Sounds reasonable...not.
Few? Not few! Many many living today had to deal with the lingering effects of the slave trade and racism stemming from that trade.
Rep. Conyers would like a study done on the effects Slavery has had on the Black population of the United States. Why would this bill be repeatedly ignored for 23 years?
Where are the reparations for the thousands who lost homes and businesses in Tulsa?
What about the thousands who couldn't attend a decent college or a decent high school for that matter?
What about the thousands who were denied employment simply because their skin was dark.
What about the thousands who were denied the right to vote through "poll taxes", Grandfather clauses, literacy tests...etc.
You can try to compare the Black experience in America to any other race and your comparison will be found wanting. To this day we haven't made the full transition to a color blind nation. You can tell by the posts on this thread.
-
why you read the link sandman posted in the 1st thread
Blacks Rally for Slave Reparations
Sat Aug 17, 8:06 PM ET
By JANELLE CARTER, Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON (AP) - Hundreds of blacks rallied in front of the Capitol on Saturday to demand slavery reparations, saying that compensation is long overdue for the ills of that institution.
"It seems that America owes black people a lot for what we have endured," Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan told the crowd. "We cannot settle for some little jive token. We need millions of acres of land that black people can build."
I read nothing in there about burmuda canada france or spain.
You are off topic. My post speaks directly to the call for reparations in America. I dont care what burmuda does or the rest of the slave trading nations. Thats the responsibility of their citizens.
So this thread is about US government reparations to black americans and yes I dont give a fuc what bermuda does or any of the rest. Those descisions are made by its citizens. Thats the sameway a feel about how state governments run themselves here in the us.
Unlike some I dont think its my place to tell others how they should run their nations when it has no impact of how I live my life.
-
Originally posted by Wotan
Unlike some I dont think its my place to tell others how they should run their nations when it has no impact of how I live my life.
That's because the members of other nations don't air their national issues on this bbs.
-
Originally posted by Wotan
You are off topic. My post speaks directly to the call for reparations in America. I dont care what burmuda does or the rest of the slave trading nations. Thats the responsibility of their citizens.
So this thread is about US government reparations to black americans and yes I dont give a fuc what bermuda does or any of the rest. Those descisions are made by its citizens. Thats the sameway a feel about how state governments run themselves here in the us.
Unlike some I dont think its my place to tell others how they should run their nations when it has no impact of how I live my life.
ummm..Wotan...if America takes a stance on reparations it is quite likely that the rest of the world will follow its example. Therefore it is ENTIRELY relevant to me what happens in the United States. I don't give a diddly what you think either...but, if the US moves the rest of the world moves with it and I have a right to express my point of view.
Also...please capitalise Bermuda when you write it...it shows common respect.
-
repect burmuda for what?
Heres your posts
Sue the British?
I think you will find that the British were the ones who "came around" on the whole slavery issue and actually sent warships to the African coast to destroy the slave factories and the slave trade. It was the Spanish, Dutch and Portugese that kept it up until the very end.
I'm not saying that the British were angels...far from it...but point all your fingers where they should be pointed...not just one.
I told you I was speaking about US reparations to black americans and suggested the british bare the responsiblity for slaves in America.
You reply with this
Wotan...this isn't just about the United States..it is about world-wide reparations. The blacks in Bermuda are calling for reparations just as loudly as the blacks in the US.
I then tell you my post is only directed at US reparations. I dont care if the rest of the world follows the US thats up to the rest of the world.
Thrawn replies.
Oh that's typical. The topic of the tread is "More repartation nonsense". Not "More reparation nonsense in the US". Curval's post is related. But hey if your post isn't about the US, I guess you can fek off, eh?
Again I point out my replies relate only to US reparations and show him how on topic my post was.
If you dont like it dont read it.
The majority of people who post here are from the US. I didnt start this thread. If you want to start a thread about Canadian politics/social problems go ahead. I wont read it or reply because I dont care. Its up to canadians to decide how to govern themselves.
-
It's also up to Canadians (and Burmudans) what they post on this bbs, isnt' it. :p.
-
No we shouldn't pay every Black American. Attacking Farakhan is just too easy in this case. There are issues here that deserve our time and that is the real agenda.
WE? I would like to know what YOU are willing to do. How much money do YOU have to give away? Dig deep buddy if YOU are that concerned. Step up to the plate and set that example show us what YOU got. Invite them poor slaves in your home give those poor slaves home. Co-sign a loan maybe. Send one thier children through college or just give a percentage of YOUR check. Just for once do something for someone and quit draggin WE into it. Why are YOU always waiting for WE?
Oh, and take YOUR agenda and stick where the sun don't shine.
WE? think again, unless of course you're talking to that mouse in your pocket.
-
To this day we haven't made the full transition to a color blind nation. You can tell by the posts on this thread.
This is the trump card (albeit spoken in deceptively soft tones) always played by the self-appointed black leadership in this country when faced with logic and reason. "Disagree with my cause and you're a racist." You're arguments seem to hinge on a number of dubious assumption. First, that racism itself is a result of slavery. Second, that all or even a majority of black Americans have suffered and continue to suffer significant disadvantages, the causes of which can be directly traced to the practice of slavery in this country. And finally, that that the effects of that racism have effected Blacks to a significantly larger degree than any other minority group.
I say again, this country has done a great deal to try to eradicate racism of all people from all causes. It's not perfect, because the nation is made up by a collection of individuals with free agency to think as they choose. But we've come a long way, and continue to strive to make the American Dream accessable to everyone. All reparations would do is make the receivers into victims dependent on the government, and the payers resentful for being forced to pay for a crime none now living are guilty of.
What exactly will reparations do to further the cause of a "color-blnd nation?" What form should they take? How much will be enough? Who should pay, and to whom? As you ponder all these questions, go back and reflect again on why reparations have been paid in the past, and to whom. The precedents just don't apply to the situation of slavery in America, not now. You can't quantify "the lingering effects of slavery," or even point to it for certain as the cause of economic oppression for a minority of a minority.
-
oh it certainly is?
where did I say they couldnt?
You 2 came to me with this "you're only worried about the US"
I never told you to but out or said anything about your replies except when directed at me.
If you 2 are concerned over the issue because you feel the rest of the world will follow the us well then express it. But dont tell me I should care what any other country does when it has 0 effect on me.
The link sandman posted was a story about black americans in the US capital protesting for reparations to be paid by the US government.
-
Did you read my last post Wotan...you obviously read the part about respect (and showed that you deserve very little), but blantantly ignored the rest, which was discussing WHY my posts have been on topic.
Again...the ramifications of a US decision on reparations will likely impact the rest of the world. It is relevant to me what happens in the US.
-
Originally posted by Wotan
oh it certainly is?
where did I say they couldnt?
You 2 came to me with this "you're only worried about the US"
I never told you to but out or said anything about your replies except when directed at me.
If you 2 are concerned over the issue because you feel the rest of the world will follow the us well then express it. But dont tell me I should care what any other country does when it has 0 effect on me.
The link sandman posted was a story about black americans in the US capital protesting for reparations to be paid by the US government.
Actually I replied directly to you when you blamed Britain for slavery in the US...which is PATENTLY frigging WRONG. You started this "I don't care about anyone else" crap.
Point out where I said that you should actually care what other countries think..I merely suggested that it is a world-wide issue.
-
How about reparaitons to women who could not legaly vote until the 1920s?
How about reparations to the Irish?
How about reparations to the Italians?
How about reparations to gays?
-
ummm..Wotan...if America takes a stance on reparations it is quite likely that the rest of the world will follow its example.
Thats up to the rest of the world.
Therefore it is ENTIRELY relevant to me what happens in the United States.
Good for you. Where did I say anythoing about it not being relevant to you. I believe what I said was, whatever burmuda or any country does thats up to them and wont effect me. I am only interested in what my country will do because it will effect me.
I don't give a diddly what you think either...
you keep replying.....
but, if the US moves the rest of the world moves with it and I have a right to express my point of view.
Also...please capitalise Bermuda when you write it...it shows common respect.
Ill refer you to my last post.
the english brought slaves with them to Jamestown. Thats as correct as it can be.
-
Uhmm, MT, this country has already paid untold billions towards reperations. It didn't take the form of a lump sump direct kick-back.
Johnson's Great Society was not cheap and it was meant to help mend the wrongs that were done that some folks (Farakhan, Sharpton, Jackson, whose agenda is to keep the pot stirred) want a direct payment for today.
His Great Society initiative cost this country an incredibly huge some of money, and it was for the right reasons. To come back today and say "We owe African Americans because of slavery" is to ignore all the progress and money spent to date on institutional changes, not one-time lump sump pay-off.
And vast amounts of moneys are still being spent today on some of these initiatives. Affirmative Action is a case in point. HUD is also an example.
That's where the REAL changes are made, not in this ransom demand. Because that change can be applied across ALL ethnic groups, not just a single one, or would that NOT fit into someone's agenda?
That money does come from you and me, the taxpayer. We already have paid (Great Society) and are paying reperations. When is that going to be recognized as such and utilized?
Cobra
Again, aside from that, personally, if someone wants to donate another portion of their check (aside from the fed. taxes already taken out) then please do so quietly and voluntarily. I won't mind. If Thrawn hates it so much, pony up and pay without being forced to.
If it is Federal money to be spent, what of the taxes paid by African-Americans...they are paying themselves in effect aren't they?
-
Originally posted by Creto
WE? I would like to know what YOU are willing to do. How much money do YOU have to give away? Dig deep buddy if YOU are that concerned. Step up to the plate and set that example show us what YOU got. Invite them poor slaves in your home give those poor slaves home. Co-sign a loan maybe. Send one thier children through college or just give a percentage of YOUR check. Just for once do something for someone and quit draggin WE into it. Why are YOU always waiting for WE?
Oh, and take YOUR agenda and stick where the sun don't shine.
WE? think again, unless of course you're talking to that mouse in your pocket.
I have Creto... LOL.
-
By all means, bring the rest of the world into this joke- it's a dark world, after all, and we need whatever levity we can muster to lighten it up.
Hand outs aren't hand ups. And, since Nation of Islam doesn't much care for the whitey and has no interest in being part of the society, what possible benefit would I as a member of that society have for funding their withdrawal?
Should I feel guilty? Maybe, but I don't. Sorry, that's a white thing, you just can't understand. ;) Seriously, I refuse to be emotionally manipulated by the likes of Farrakhan, Sharpton, or Jackson. We should make education and opportunity available to all, but making payoffs to make these guys shut up is fruitless. They'll be back next week, palms up, demanding their payments. They represent the ultimate slackers, and I refuse to dig into my pockets. I'd rather give it to someone trying to help him/herself get a better life.
Thrawn, you've got some screwy ideas about America, it would seem. Ever visit a reservation? Paradise on earth, I tell ya. ;) As for the thought that the individual citizen wouldn't have to pay for the reparations... what country do you live in? Oops! Canada! One way or another, that money comes from us.
BTW, Mighty1 is half-indian, too. ;) He looks it far more than I do.
Lest my comments be viewed an indictment on all blacks- it isn't. It is however directed at any black that attempts to lay blame on me personally for any wrong done to the race. Further, I refuse to wear the racist label without duly pointing out it is most often directed at me by persons far more racist than I could ever imagine being. I don't spend a single minute of my day thinking about the race issue, whereas it seems some do nothing else.
-
Sorry can't figure out what you are trying to say there Wotan...which post are you referring me to? It seems as if you are using my "I don't give a diddly" statement as some basis for not respecting me? Is that what you are trying to get at? It is all so cryptic.
For the record...I never attack someone else with that type of statement or language unless attacked first.
This statement started me down that road,
"So this thread is about US government reparations to black americans and yes I dont give a fuc what bermuda does or any of the rest."
Notice that is before my post about not giving a diddly about what you think.
It is obvious that your nose got out of joint because I told you that there was an exception to every rule...so you lashed out...and continue to do so. No-where am I telling you what to think...no-where are you telling me what to think.
Now..I'm going home to take my kids for a swim. This thread has become nothing but petty bickering.
-
Sorry, that's a white thing, you just can't understand.
oooh. Well played.
-
Originally posted by Wotan
the english brought slaves with them to Jamestown. Thats as correct as it can be.
..well before I actually leave, let me question your edited comment.
Tell me this...who did those English buy those slaves from? Don't know? I very much doubt you do...but you are willing to blame the British for slavery in the US because the Jamestown settlers had some house servants? That is just plain stupid.
-
I have Creto... LOL.
Good for you MT
I do things for others too, but not out of guilt, not for show or to look good in front of others or political gain.
I do things for others because I ought to, because it's the right thing to do.
-
Originally posted by Sabre
snip You're arguments seem to hinge on a number of dubious assumption. First, that racism itself is a result of slavery. Second, that all or even a majority of black Americans have suffered and continue to suffer significant disadvantages, the causes of which can be directly traced to the practice of slavery in this country. And finally, that that the effects of that racism have effected Blacks to a significantly larger degree than any other minority group. snip
This is exactly why Rep. Conyers is involved in this movement. He has suggested a congressional study of these very subjects. Yet even this is shot down because this political football ain't gonna play well in suburban America.
-
"So this thread is about US government reparations to black americans and yes I dont give a fuc what bermuda does or any of the rest."
that was a reply to thrawn not you.
he posted
Oh that's typical. The topic of the tread is "More repartation nonsense". Not "More reparation nonsense in the US". Curval's post is related. But hey if your post isn't about the US, I guess you can fek off, eh?
-
I guess my biggest grip is with "paying off" decendants of slaves at least five generations removed.
I feel that the reparation effort is more a bribe than paying for percieved damages in any event. I can assure you that even with a big payoff, the great majority of "disgruntled african americans" will still be as victim minded as ever.
Im tired of hearing about it. I have never judged any person simply by the colour of their skin. Its their actions and statements that tip me off to the usual racist bigotry I commonly find in most modern day decendants of slaves. The black people I work with and know freely are middle class and educated and are chagrined by their own race for being "Uncle Toms"......
Perhaps a lawsuit against Saudi Arabia (which allows slavery with a turned cheek) to the tune of "ONE TRILLION DOLLARS" might get more sympathy from me.
Thats all I care to say.
-
it's actions like this that keep racism alive and well in america
-
It just shows you how successful libs are in redefining terms and definitions of a dialog.
taxes = "contributions"
confiscatory and progressive tax code = "fair share"
gov spending = "investment" into the future
public school indoctrination = "progressive curriculum"
etc.
The notion of reparations is a completely brain dead, absurd and laughable idea, and yet, look at us. We are actually discussing it like it had some merit. Nobody is laughing :(
-
For kieran.
I said there was nothing so convincing to an Indian as a general massacre. If he could not approve of the massacre, I said the next surest thing for an Indian was soap and education. Soap and education are not as sudden as a massacre, but they are more deadly in the long run; because a half-massacred Indian may recover, but if you educate him and wash him, it is bound to finish him some time or other.
-Mark Twain
-
Reparations would cause more problems than it would solve. The last thing that the country needs is another divisive issue. What purpose is served by further balkanizing the nation's population?
My sympathy goes out to any group that has suffered discrimination or racial hatred in the past. Every effort should be made to eliminate these stumbling blocks to opportunity and equality.
But is reparations the way to accomplish this? Exactly what would it achieve? The Japanese who received payment from the government for being incarcerated in the internment camps were, at least, the actual, living victims of that discriminatory act. Reparations to the descendants of slaves is not the same thing.
The normal route to redress the effects of discrimination is to file suit against the offending party in court. But a class-action law demanding reparations would more than likely fail. The effort to get Congress to pass a reparations bill is an attempt to bypass the courts. The reparations movement is also being hurt by the fact that it is being demagogued by three of the most notorious Black racists in the nation. The movement also has the stench of greed about it.
Let's suppose that Congress should seriously consider passing a reparations bill. A veritable Pandora's box of problems demanding solution would immediately be opened.
1. What amount would suffice to satisfy the demands of the aggrieved parties? How would this amount be arrived at? So many dollars for each year that slavery existed? So much for the estimated number of African-Americans who were slaves? A combination of both?
2. Where would this money come from? New Taxes? Or would cuts have to be made in existing government programs.
3. If new taxes are levied, who would pay them? All tax-paying citizens? Or just all White tax-paying citizens? The ancestors of most White-Americans came to the U.S. in the decades after the Civil War. Many White-Americans worked in the Civil Rights Movement and have been active in the effort to end discrimination. Do they also have to pay? Three-fourths of White-Americans living in the South prior to the Civil War did not own slaves. They were poor-white and yeoman farmers. Are their descendants to held culpable for a sin that their ancestors did not commit?
4. Some Native-American groups owned slaves prior to the Civil War. How much financial responsibility should they be expected to assume?
5. If new taxes are unpalatable, what government programs would you be willing to see the government cut in order to pay the reparations? Medicare? Medicaid? Defense? There are hundreds of them. Please decide. Which do we not need?
6. Would the payment be a one-time thing, or would it be on-going for several years or decades? When does enough become enough?
7. Should allowances be made for the fact that 600,00 White-Americans lost their lives during the Civil War which ended slavery? How much is a drop of blood worth?
8. If we pay reparations to one minority group for past discrimination, are we not obligated to pay all minority groups that have suffered it during our nation's history? Can the economy and the government continue to function with such a financial weight dragging them down? How long would it take for them to founder under a burden of dependency?
I am unequivocally opposed to reparations. My ancestors were some of those poor yeoman farmers in the South who never owned slaves. The federal and state governments already take slightly more than a third of my gross earnings. It is difficult enough to pay my bills. Why should I be penalized by my government for the color of my skin? The Civil Rights Movement will be rendered meaningless if we continue to make that kind of distinction between people.
Regards, Shuckins
-
hehe, "Run! It's SOAP!!"
-
MT how much money do you, as the white devil, owe your black sons and black wife for slavery?
Answer the question, I want a number on what you as a liberal type feel you should give them for slavery.
Don't dodge this question you popsicle! :D A number as in number of dollars.....
-
if any of you feel guilty enough to want to pay reparations then take out check book and pay off your dedt.
Me, I owe umm nothing.
-
Would it matter how many of your relatives were slaves. Say if someone had 5 great, great grandparents that were slaves versus someone who had only 1 great, great grandparent slave. Would the 1st guy get 5 times more money? I bet there's 1 lucky SOB with a dozen or so.
-
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
MT how much money do you, as the white devil, owe your black sons and black wife for slavery?
Answer the question, I want a number on what you as a liberal type feel you should give them for slavery.
Don't dodge this question you popsicle! :D A number as in number of dollars.....
They suck every penny out of me now Grun. :p
Go back and read every one of my posts. Where did I say we owed anything for SLAVERY. Bet you can't find it.
-
two points... my grandfather came here from Scotland so we had nothing to do with slaveholding in the U.S. and.... the followers of farrakhan are likely not able to trace their ancestry even that far.
lazs
-
Originally posted by Wotan
The southern and frontier dirt farmers suffered as a result of slavery.
Yup, they sure were stupid to die defending it.
-
Montezuma,
It pains me to see that you have been taken in by Northern propaganda. :D
Ask yourself this question: Why would poor white farmers in the Southern states risk their lives to defend slavery? It would be well to remember that the elimination of slavery did not because a major goal of Lincoln and the Republican Congress until the end of 1862. By that time, the war had already been raging for the better part of two years.
The Southern state governments were more afraid of a Northern controlled Congress which would pass economic and tariff laws that would benefit Northern manufacturing but hurt Southern trade. South Carolina threatened to secede as early as 1828 over passage of the Tariff of Abominations.
It was Republican Congressional election victories as much as Lincoln's election that threw the Southern States into a panic in late 1860. Majority control by the North in both houses of Congress had grown so strong that Southern representatives could no longer hope to block legislation detrimental to their economic interests.
Slavery was definitely a major issue, but the abolitionist movement had not yet garnered enough sympathy in the North to force Congress to write legislation to eliminate it. Northern legislators were more concerned with the passage of legislation that would benefit Northern manufacturing and trade interests.
The secession crisis of late 1860 and early 1861 was the inevitable result of the doctrine of state's rights , which was embraced by the South as a defence against Northern control of the government. Refutation of that doctrine, and restoration of the Union, was the main goal of the Northern government and of Abraham Lincoln. The elimination of slavery only became a goal after the Battle of Antietam, when Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation at the request of Frederick Douglass, a move which Lincoln made to place the North's war effor on a higher moral footing to bolster support by the North's dispirited population, with an eye to preventing the entry of Britain into the war on the side of the South.
The average, non-slave owning Southerner fought to defend their home states in a struggle that some called the War of Northern Aggression. They had little to gain by defending slavery. They fought out of a sense of patriotic pride in their native states, which was a very real and powerful emotion in those days.
The romantic fascination with the noble war that ended slavery often obscures these other factors that led to the start of this bloody spectacle. Slavery was the great sin of early American society, but it was not the only cause of the Civil War.
Regards, Shuckins
-
Dang! I've got to proofread my posts before hitting the submit button!:o
Shuckins
-
I was a "native american" for a while on my last home loan. They asked me what I was and I replied... "what is popular this week?" She said.... "well... uh. native american is good right now."... I said..."put me down for that." "but... are u native american?" she queried... I said... "prove I'm not ya friggin bigot."
lazs
-
Like to get Jimmy the Greek's take on this :)
If we end up paying , (nowadays I rule nothing out :rolleyes: ), I think we could then demand reparations from the multi million dollar african american athletes who owe their superior athletic ability to genetics created by the slave master through years/generations of breeding only the strongest and fastest for his plantation
:)
-
when was the last time you heard a black man complain of the bigotry associated with saying that black people have bigger noodlees? Or that black people make superior athletes? When I was fooling around with boxing... we all knew black guys had harder skulls. It didn't seem prejediced (not that we cared) but it was a simple fact. Later.. when I would mention this... I would cause liberals to go into a hissy fit... Now... NASA is researching black astronouts because their "bones are denser" and being in space causes bone loss.
lazs
-
Just for the record,
If someone is going to give people money out of my pocket, for something that happened when I wasnt alive, I will not tolerate it.
-
Originally posted by Shuckins
Montezuma,
It pains me to see that you have been taken in by Northern propaganda. :D
I knew I could hook at least one revisionist :)
Ask yourself this question: Why would poor white farmers in the Southern states risk their lives to defend slavery? It would be well to remember that the elimination of slavery did not because a major goal of Lincoln and the Republican Congress until the end of 1862. By that time, the war had already been raging for the better part of two years.
So all of the violence and killing leading up to the war had nothing to do with slavery either, right?
The Southern state governments were more afraid of a Northern controlled Congress which would pass economic and tariff laws that would benefit Northern manufacturing but hurt Southern trade. South Carolina threatened to secede as early as 1828 over passage of the Tariff of Abominations.
The economic law the south was afraid of was abolition of slavery. They didn't secede over tariffs.
It was Republican Congressional election victories as much as Lincoln's election that threw the Southern States into a panic in late 1860. Majority control by the North in both houses of Congress had grown so strong that Southern representatives could no longer hope to block legislation detrimental to their economic interests.
Economic interest of plantation owners, slavery.
Slavery was definitely a major issue, but the abolitionist movement had not yet garnered enough sympathy in the North to force Congress to write legislation to eliminate it. Northern legislators were more concerned with the passage of legislation that would benefit Northern manufacturing and trade interests.
Legislation outlawing slavery in the territories.
The secession crisis of late 1860 and early 1861 was the inevitable result of the doctrine of state's rights , which was embraced by the South as a defence against Northern control of the government. Refutation of that doctrine, and restoration of the Union, was the main goal of the Northern government and of Abraham Lincoln. The elimination of slavery only became a goal after the Battle of Antietam, when Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation at the request of Frederick Douglass, a move which Lincoln made to place the North's war effor on a higher moral footing to bolster support by the North's dispirited population, with an eye to preventing the entry of Britain into the war on the side of the South.
The state right they were most concerned with was slavery.
The average, non-slave owning Southerner fought to defend their home states in a struggle that some called the War of Northern Aggression. They had little to gain by defending slavery. They fought out of a sense of patriotic pride in their native states, which was a very real and powerful emotion in those days.
I can also sympathize with German soldiers in the 1940s who did their duty to defend their country. Their cause was also wrong though.
The romantic fascination with the noble war that ended slavery often obscures these other factors that led to the start of this bloody spectacle. Slavery was the great sin of early American society, but it was not the only cause of the Civil War.
The romantic fascination that the south has with the civil war often obscures that fact that if slavery was not an issue, there would not have been a civil war. :)
-
Originally posted by lazs2
I was a "native american" for a while on my last home loan. They asked me what I was and I replied... "what is popular this week?" She said.... "well... uh. native american is good right now."... I said..."put me down for that." "but... are u native american?" she queried... I said... "prove I'm not ya friggin bigot."
lazs
Absolutely shrecking priceless.
Gotta wipe this coffee off the monitor. :D
-
sand... that story is absolutely true and recounted word for word to the best of my recolection... except for the last line being cleaned up a little for the tender sensibilities of this BB.
lazs
-
Even better. :D