Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Bronco on July 23, 1999, 03:57:00 PM
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Will there be an Open GL or equivalent 3D version coded for Macintosh platform in the near future?.......PLEASE!!!!
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Bronco
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There are currently no plans for a Mac version. I won't close the door on the possibility, WB went a good while before they had one. But at this stage, we just cannot justify the costs of doing that. What happens if and when we get out of the woods is something we'll have to analyze at that time.
Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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Oh well.
Then I guess I'll just have to hope it will suck, or we'll all stuck in the WBs arenas while our pc brethren are having fun over here. Crapola. (http://beta.hitechcreations.com/ubb/frown.gif)
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Yak
Pale Horses
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Aanvil and all his MacPilot commrades wave their high-limit credit cards over head trying to get Pyros attention. ;-)
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Just a data point:
My squad, 4th Fighter Group, is not interested in moving to a new game that can't support the Macintosh members of the squad. As long as reasonable-quality alternatives exist, the squad will stay with products that allow us to stay together.
Most of the squads in WB have a number of Mac members, and I'd suspect that many of them feel the same way - they won't switch unless nothing else of decent quality exists.
So, just something for Pyro and Dale to consider. (http://beta.hitechcreations.com/ubb/smile.gif)
Wade
==au==
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Why would you do this? With popularity of the iMac, and now the iBook it seems like a poor decision. To say Warbirds was PC only before they made a Mac version, what about Air Warrior? I played the MAc version in 1989 when PC's still used DOS!
Apple should not be left out. The company is one of the best INOVATORS in PC technology. With a bit more support like Aces High there would be more reason for Apple to support game programmers.
Just my thoughts. No, I will not invest in MS Windows to play your game.
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very true au. I can't picture JG77 leaving Warbirds for any sim that doesn't offer mac support. Just can't take AH seriously when half the squad is on a mac!
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HeHe..good leaves more room for us. Does Mac still make up like 10% of the market? Dont know just wondering, but I can see Pyros point.
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Dnil
Maj. 900th Bloody Jaguars
Part time aircraft restorer
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I don't understand how game developers can't see the Mac as viable market. There were over a million iMacs sold at least half a year ago so I would think it would be more like 2 million by now. Not to mention all the blue towers. All of which have modems, usb and a good number of 3D accelerators, just ripe for online gaming. A veritable gold mine to the company that can target that untapped audience and introduce them to the online world. The mere fact that there aren't many quality games for the Mac means that the ones that do come along are that much more sucessful. Take Bungie for example and the Myth series (hybrid discs are where it's at), or Blizzard and Starcraft. Well I could go on and on about this. I hope that Pyro and company see the need. I can't see how this wouldn't be a good thing for them to do. Although we haven't spoken about it yet, I would hope that my squad, the Pale Riders, stands by the Mac guys and plays in the game that supports us. Justify the expense guys.
Oh yeah, please don't start up a Mac vs PC flame war. Keep your stupid coments like "Macs suck" to yourselves. This isn't about that.
Fatbat
the Pale Riders
[This message has been edited by Fatbat (edited 07-23-1999).]
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Well, let's see...
2 million Mac's sold last year...
50 million PC's sold last year...
20 Amigas sold to unsuspecting individual(s)?
C'mon guys, they have a point ya know.
The Mac guys in my squad are looking to buy PC's now, I guess they're fed up with the crap.
Morc. (Just thinking, ya know)
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But -morc-, the relevant numbers are how many hard-core flight sim people there are on Macs, and I think that has to be a higher percentage than the worldwide sales figures show --- most of those PC's are in some kind of business environment. Sure, the Mac market for AH is smaller than the PC market, but there's also no competition for those Mac players. If AH invests in the Mac, they'll get us all and likely keep us --- right now I have *no* online flight sim I can play (for more than 63 seconds, anyway...).
So --- Good luck HiTech Creations! There are a lot of us Mac guys waiting for the chance to sign up and help you profit from your investment in the Apple platform --- hope it happens sooner rather than later!
-jdd--
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Stats I've seen (but cannot reference, sorry!) say that the percentage of MacIntosh computers used in business applications is far larger than the percentage of PCs similarly used. This tends to support HiTech's decision, for now. The fact is that the PC gaming marketplace is much larger. Just check out the games section in any computer store....
The really interesting stats would be on what percentage of Mac users fly online versus the percentage of PC users that fly online. That's where the real numbers would be.
BTW, I'm a PC user and I respect very much the attitudes of those squadrons having both Mac users and PC users. It is a terrible dilemma for all.
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foggia
XO
457th Bomb Group (http://www.nehp.net/rcaryljr)
[This message has been edited by foggia (edited 07-23-1999).]
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Not producing a Mac version is not just a simple choice dictated by personal whim. It's not because we feel there's no Mac market. But there is a big difference between what is feasible and what is feasible for us at this time.
HTC's philosphy is to do this one thing without any distractions. To accomplish that, we need to keep our start-up costs down and our overhead low. This is a no-frills operation. The pitfall a lot of developers fall into is that they have to seek out a lot of money from a publisher or venture capitalist to finance their project so they can "do what they want." The problem is that once they do that, they're no longer doing what they want, but what is dictated to them by their financiers. Suddenly they find that their project has become the goose that laid the golden eggs with someone else merciless hacking away at it because its not laying eggs fast enough to satisfy them. No thanks. If we have to sell ourselves off to succeed, we will have failed.
We aren't shutting ourselves out of a market. AH is written to be platform independent. Changing from D3D to OpenGL is not a huge conversion. But the simple truth is that it's not something we can do right now. At the point that it is an option to us, we'll look at the market and go from there. I wish I could tell you what you want to hear, but I can't.
Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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On 7/23/99, Pyro wrote:
"Changing from D3D to OpenGL is not a huge conversion. But the simple truth is that it's not something we can do right now. At the point that it is an option to us, we'll look at the market and go from there. I wish I could tell you what you want to hear, but I can't. "
Interestiang that you guys are not going OpenGL from the start. Is it because you all are used to the D3D environment or are there solid reasons for using one over the other. From what I had heard, OpenGL is easier to develop for and inherently faster. But I don't actually program the stuff, so I'm relying on trusted opinions.
As I said before, even though I am a rabid Mac devotee, I just don't see an upside to trying to develop for both Pre-OS X. The Mac OS still isn't flexible and stable enough in the multi-threading department. Even more so if you guys are developing for D3D, although I hear that hardware is starting to come for the Mac market.
You guys have to go where the business plan and the bank account take you. Now, if you want to license the Mac coding out to someone... let's talk.
Cheers,
P.S. Pyro, get some sleep dude. Up until midnight on a Friday and back at it at 7:30 AM on Saturday. There is a long way to go my man. (http://beta.hitechcreations.com/ubb/smile.gif)
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-cman-
The Dweebs of Death
"Death before dishonor,
often just moments
before
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OK, PC guy with a question here. Is it really that more of an expense to code a Mac version of xxx game? In particular I'm speaking of Aces High.
I'm not a programmer or a project manager but what else is involved besides paying a Mac programmer to code and providing him with a Mac to code on? It's got to be cheaper to do it from the start rather than figure out how to do a hack port that's always a rev behind the PC version and then telling your Mac customers you're not pissing on their legs, it's just raining ...
Seriously. I'm not a Mac user and don't ever intend to be (not nasty, just don't want to learn another OS/platform) but the boxes do seem to be flying off the shelf and they're getting support from big names in gaming like Carmack and Romero.
Nobody in flight sims gives the Mac platform even ground to stand on and I find that real confusing. I know that HTC, KillerCo, WB, AW, FA ... all the big multiplayer online sims love doing WW2 sims. But they're also companies whose bottom line is to make money. There's only so much market saturation WW2 sims can support. Why on earth would you just cede profits to whoever smells the fresh brewed coffee first and puts Mac pilots on even ground with their PC compadres?
I'd love to hear opinions from folks that are coding not just flying.
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Chris -Spof- Singleton
spof@dogfighter.com
Spof's News @ Dogfighter
www.dogfighter.com (http://www.dogfighter.com)
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paying a Mac programmer to code and providing him with a Mac to code on? It's got to be cheaper to do it from the start rather than figure out how to do a hack port that's always a rev behind the PC version and then telling your Mac customers you're not pissing on their legs, it's just raining ...
Your right and it is better to code from the beginning with both platforms in mind.
Perfect example of how not to do it is warbirds.
Write what ever you want PC, then have the Mac programmer wave a magic wand over the pc code, throw 2 warts off a frog on it, pour the piss of an ant on it and hope it runs like the pc version,.....it don't!
D3D to OpenGL,.......LOL thats kinda like backasswards.
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cman:
From what I had heard, OpenGL is easier to develop for and inherently faster. But I don't actually program the stuff, so I'm relying on trusted opinions
In that "Desert Dogs", or what ever it is.. that one another new online sim in development.. I could make 1 fps in OpenGL, but almost playable with Glide maybe 10 fps.
In EAW, Glide and 3D3 perform quite similarly.
-> This leads to a conclusion in my limited knowledge that D3D is okay in PC, no thanks for OpenGL.
But it is good to hear that AH is coded portable.
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guys give em a rest.
i dont think you really "heard" what pyro
tried to say.
They simply dont have the resources to
develop a PC and Mac version
at the same time. And since the PC marked
IS bigger (your gonna work hard to convince
me otherwise) they have chosen to support
the PC. From what i can read from
pyros posts id guess that when the initial
program has been launced and this game
has been firmly established as a stand alone
product, firmly able to support itself. Then
i would guess a Mac version will be launced
if they find it possible.
just my thoughts
nappy
TVW
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Yep, screw the Mac guys.....and your little iMacs are already useless for these new sims; upgrading? ha! not on that thing.
Ok, so I'm a Mac basher. Thats because I spent a lot of time on one at work. Thank god they finally switched to PC's, and I've been back to a happy employee ever since.
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I am interested in the either/or nature of the dialogue so far. Perhaps computers make us too binary in our thought processes. What is wrong with flying WarBirds to be with your Mac pals on squad nights and AH for whatever good things it offers? Are they somehow mutually exclusive? No more room on the hard drive? Maybe gamers will keep a foot in both camps. It would certainly be great incentive to keep the servers up and the features fresh.
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I wish all the luck to Pyro and gang in their new venture. The remarks about keeping control of things are cogent and sensible. They are making decisions based on (sometimes painful) experience. If they are successful someday and offer a Mac product, I will come and play.
The real morons in this business, though, are the marketing geniuses at Kesmai: they ALREADY had a mac product and stopped it. With a decent market and a built-in extremely loyal following in place. Buncha maroons. Do they truly not realize that most Mac peeps serious about this game don't care how much it costs to play? High limit credit cards indeed! Sorry WB, don't like the sim enough to go there. Alas.
DamnedHorn
of the AW MacDamned
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What Pyro says is right. Sure you can go and get a big pile of outside investment money to fund whatever development you want to do. The only problem is then you don't own your own company anymore.
Trust me, you don't want decisions about Aces High development being being made by accountants.
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(Paarma wrote something about OpenGL, D3D,and Glide):
Not sure if you were pro or con-glide from it, but ozreckons you have to rule out Glide at this point. Supported only by 3dfx chipsets, which are now only made by one cardmaker. You have to support a standard now as opposed to a chipset these days. So it would have to be OpenGL or D3D. The days of the add-in 3D cards are pretty well over too, so it's one or all -- not I can run glide some games on one card and OpenGL/D3D for the others.
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Please help Oz find his sig, he lost it!
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How unfortunate. Seems as though the Mac market, particularly for games, is on the upswing. I understand the logic behind developing for one platform at a time, but I really have to wonder how much is involved in making a hybrid. Is the dual-platform cost something you've looked into, or was it just assumed early on that it would be too expensive? My Blue & White G3 tower is really quite a nice gaming box. Almost anything I'm interrested in playing is available for both platforms.
We're waiting...
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Pyro didn't say there would never be a Mac version; just not one when the game is first released.
Besides, any die-hard computer flight sim guy has a PC. How many flight sim titles are available for the PC versus the Mac?
Now lest you blast me for being a Mac-hater, I'm just stating the facts. They have to go with the numbers right now. We'll see you Mac guys a year from when we get our version.
Nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Couldn't help to notice all those "junior members" in this topic (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Pyro, you might consider writing or calling mr. Steve Jobs. He has stated in the recent past that he's willing to invest in new (entertainment) technologies.
I don't have his number, but I'm sure you can get it somewhere. It's a long shot, but worth the try.
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Lapwin.
CO 1st.ROF
Netherlands.
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No mac version? Then should we all be removing our bookmarks from this page?
Didn't HOSS defect with you guys? (or am I completely crazy)? If there aint a mac version, give us HOSS back! ;-)
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_______________________
=<VMFA-333>= Tres Equis
'Anytime, Baby!'
_______________________
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Pyro explained:
>We aren't shutting ourselves out of a market. AH is written to be platform independent. Changing from D3D to OpenGL is not a huge conversion. But the simple truth is that it's not something we can do right now. At the point that it is an option to us, we'll look at the market and go from there. I wish I could tell you what you want to hear, but I can't.
Given the currrent trend with "orginal" sim developers, I gota take Pyro's quote as not closing the door on a MacOS FE. Given a successful inital launch of Aces High, cash flow and a positive growth trend, I'd bet a MacFe would be something considered if it could be cost-justified.
-Surf
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Ozymandias_KoK, I was trying not to be pro or con about glide, but trying to be con-3D3.
From my very limited experience, OpenGL looks to be very heavy duty, where Direct3D as it's current state can be as good as Glide in a 3DFX environment.
I vote for Direct3D, as it's the standard today for the target platform.
However, I understand that I'm not asked, there is no such election:-)
Using OpenGL to help some future - maybe - port, is not a good idea, if that OpenGL is so bad that it looks it is.. I wrote 1 fps, but it was more like 0.1 fps (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif). Opinion based on Desert Fighters Beta, VoodooI and Pentium Pro 200.
//paarma
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wowzer,
Hoss is with Killer, and Cal doing ( Playnets ) new game.
It is using OpenGl which is supeirior to D3D graphics.
Unreal tounament and Quake III both are OpenGL.
Playnet won't have terrain that looks like Holiday Inn carpet.
They are writing code with complete Mac support from day 1!
No hacked PC code full of patches for the mac version as wb was.
No Mac afterthought for any reason.
They plan on showing something very soon.
Watch AGW for info.
And for the idiots info on the imac, it is upgradable.
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Again, Pyro's answer is one of resources. It's easy to sit in judgement of their decision making and say that you would do it different. If money and programming were no issue they would probably approach it different too.
HiTech is comfortable with D3D and the PC programming environment. Their primary goal at this time has to be a revenue generating product that wins acceptance from as broad a market as possible - within the comfort zone and financial constraints of the organization.
Once the PC community has jumped on board and the cash flow begins to cover expenses and generates a little excess, they can start looking at broadening their base. The simm community seems to constantly overlook the business basics on these boards.
Their one and only goal right now needs to be developing a game with superior playability that is an evolution from Warbirds. By focusing on attracting a good portion of the current WB player base to AH they will then have the freedom to open new doors. I personally would rather see an outstanding FM with rock solid connects and a better twist on strat than awesome graphics.
<S> Merlin
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Why don't you Mac guys ask dear Steve Jobs or whoever is currently in charge of Apple to licence and reproduce the current most widely used graphical interface - Direct3D. It is not like they developed OpenGL - SGI did it and board manufacturers licensed it to run on PC and Mac and other platforms.
Then you would be able to play most of the games available on PC and maybe Mac's market share will go up.
miko--
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How about a outstanding FM with rock solid connects and a better twist on strat with OpenGL awesome graphics.
Check out what those other Warbirds guys are doing.
Direct 3D, yah lets take 2 steps backwards and run that stuff. Then lets run windose 98 , or for that matter 2000 instead of OS X.
Gees you guys see this is a Mac thread do you have to come in here with your PC crap. We aren't pushing Mac stuff in you threads, don't bring this board to that childish platform war crap. Its irrelevant.
If you know anything ,or even if you don't, just look at the new games coming. The ones that have the best looking graphics are going to OpenGL.
It just works / looks better.
Just look at the d3d terrains.
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--- Buba: ---
If you know anything ,or even if you don't, just look at the new games coming. The ones that have the best looking graphics are going to OpenGL.
--- End ---
That is not correct. The upcoming PC game called Max Payne uses D3D and IMO looks superior to Q3Arena, even if just in those screenshots released to public thus far.
You obviously don't know much about D3D or OpenGL. To hold WB or AH's screenshots as the all that D3D can be is silly. Good looking D3D terrain? Check out Motocross Madness. That's last winter's game but has very nicely done landscape that is visible to the distance.
~/fats
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Fats wrote:
>You obviously don't know much about D3D or OpenGL. To hold WB or AH's screenshots as the all that D3D can be is silly. Good looking D3D terrain? Check out Motocross Madness. That's last winter's game but has very nicely done landscape that is visible to the distance.
I'm not seeing the visual superiority of OpenGL as compared to the latest incarnations of D3D either.
-Surf
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How did I attack the Mac platform? I have a Mac and a PC both outfitted to fly.
My comment was on the business basics of where Aces High is today, not which graphics engine is best.
Regardless of what the Mac player base would like to see, HiTech is obviously comfortable coding to D3D thus he can crank out a decent beta and production version quicker. The sooner arenas can open to generate revenues the sooner these guys have the bucks to spend on futures. I know this is obvious and I'm not trying to talk down to anyone but these threads about "they should do this" or "they should do that" without any consideration of what they CAN do today are meaningless.
I fly with a few mac pilots and would miss them a ton in AH but unfortunatly, in the short run, they won't be there.
<S> Merlin
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Just charge the Mac guys more.
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(Rolo's evil twin looks about warily and begins to stir the pot)
Psst! Any of you guys read this article about Macs v. PCs as game machines on Gamespot?
http://www.gamespot.com/features/macvspc/index.html (http://www.gamespot.com/features/macvspc/index.html)
Regardless of the merits of one platform over the other (and even the economics of cross-platform development), the real issue in my mind is that cross-platform in multiplayer games requires that you code for the lowest common denominator. Cool features available on one platform that aren't available on the other must be left out of the game because you must maintain a level playing field.
Rolo
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OpenGL or equiv?!
Right now some of us would be happy for just ONE(!!) arena flightsim for the mac that works (31 July 99).
cheers
front
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Well, I figured since you HTC guys are rolling in the hot sauce since the end of the Beta and the advent of paying to play, I figured this is as good a time as any to re-bring this up (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
dh
(oftheyeahI'mapainintheasstribe)
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with all the money Gates put into Apple isnt there a windows emulator that can run this program.
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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
Cherokee Indian
My Homepage
Where you can find the Key Commands in files for Word6 Wordpad and text mode.
indians Homepage (http://www.geocities.com/~tltoon)
Aces High Word6 and Wordpad Doc's available on my web site.
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with all the money Gates put into Apple isnt there a windows emulator that can run this program.
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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
Sure, runs it great. Input devices don't work, tho.
(and Gates had nothing to do w/ it, btw)
dh
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Ok, here's the technical low-down from someone who used to work with Caligula & Hoss and also HT (and who is also currently programming his own game) :
First - OpenGL vs D3D. OpenGL IS easier to develop with than D3D. Many's the time that I've coded something with D3D, shook my head, and said "what the f*ck were they thinking". The problem with OpenGL is that there isn't a _complete_ set of functionality of graphic operations supported by the vid cards for OpenGL. Something cool that's available in D3D just isn't supported on the card for OpenGL. That takes away from the eye candy. Also, 2D operations in OpenGL are a pain in the ass. This comment comes from Random (former ICI, now MotorSims). MS has said that they're going to produce a product that will allow OpenGL's full functionality (Fire-something) but I suspect it will be a layer of OpenGL on top of D3D, which would slow the game down.
Second - PCs vs Macs: To start, I like the Mac, but graphics of OpenGL vs D3D aren't the only issues in implementing a game. There are also different methods to do dialogs, communication, game installation, input device polling and configuration, system key conflicts, and system querying (ie does this system even have a joystick). Even going OpenGL "from the start" wouldn't solve these divergences.
Third - programmers: Programmers are in high demand in the industry and Mac programmers even more so. Hense, more expensive. An average salary for an experienced programmer these days runs from 55K to 80K (non-consultant). True, you can find Mac programmers like Hoss that will work for less than he could get because he loves the game field, but that makes programming for the Mac even less feasible if you try finding another coder like him.
These aren't all the issues involved but it touches on some of the main points. I've yakked with HT on his approaches to platform independence and can at least assure you the man has got it together on this issue. Big time. He has _no_ hatred for the Mac platform and has as many complaints about D3D that I do.
Take Pyro's post for exactly what it is - a _current_ position statement not a policy carved on some stone tablet.
Hope this helps . . .
-sudz-
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Very interesting, Sudz... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I was just commenting that now that HTC has finished buying all the planes and boats, furs for the wives, etc., from revenue this game has generated, I figured they might get busy on the *important* stuff (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
dh
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Dangit Steve!
[This message has been edited by Luckyone (edited 02-06-2000).]
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Luckyone,
What the hell are you talking about? If I guess correctly then let me tell you I've no intention of writing a flight sim, wwII or anything. I'm not living the high life since I haven't had a paycheck in almost a year (I'm funding my own development). If I missed your point in there somewhere I apologize, but c'mon, I'm not a cryptographer (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-sudz-
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C'mon, Luckyone, you had more than one sip... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Horn, how many $30 subscriptions do you think they've gotten so far? Even if they've gotten 1000, that's not even enough to pay one guy's salary for as long as they've been working on this project! I don't have the exact figures obviously, but it's going to be a while longer until this project gives a return on investment.
I'm not saying it won't be wildly profitable, but you're a bit early. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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What is a "Mac"?
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Horn, how many $30 subscriptions do you think they've gotten so far?
funked
<tongueincheek>
Probably enuf to, like I sed, buy boats and furs and stuff fer the wives and kids...dontchathink?
</tongueincheek>
So now, the important stuff! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
dh
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Frankly I've had it with MAC's high cost and I am building a PC. I think I would rather see Hitec add features to their present sim than embark on an adventure in writing code for mac.
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Frankly I've had it with MAC's high cost and I am building a PC. I think I would rather see Hitec add features to their present sim than embark on an adventure in writing code for mac.
bbgunn
Wow. So, bbgunn, how many Macs have you owned to get this "fed up"??
dh
(guess the advocate?)
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HEY YAK THAT PHRASE IS PATENTED BY ME I"LL SUE YOU HEHEHE CRAPOLA CRAPOLA CRAPOLA!!!!!!
>:^(-)