Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Ripsnort on August 19, 2002, 09:54:01 AM
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Agree or disagree with this? I personally cannot help but think this is about being "A kinder, gentler Nation thats been mentally beat into pacifist submission" I don't have a problem with pointing at Extremist Fundamentalist Muslims, but generalizing Muslims would be a mistake.
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20020819-34549100.htm
The National Education Association is suggesting to
teachers that they be careful on the first anniversary of the
September 11 attacks not to "suggest any group is responsible"
for the terrorist hijackings that killed more than 3,000 people.
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Why not just point a finger at Al-Qaeda, if you need to point one?...sorta seems like the obvious choice.
Daff
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and you know teachers will not teach about the US policies that were a cause of 9/11 in the first place
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Not so hawk, read the article.
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Originally posted by hawk220
and you know teachers will not teach about the US policies that were a cause of 9/11 in the first place
Oh of course, our civilians are at fault, forgot about that Hawk. wonder if any of those jumpers at the WTC had fatigues on? Those bastiges!
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You don't need to point a finger anywhere if the Muslims policed their own. Where are these "great " Muslim countries. If you think any Muslim country are our Allies, forget it. Every Major terrorist attack against the U.S. in the last 20 years have been Muslim Supported.
Islam= Muslim
Muslim=Islam
I don't see the difference.
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hey gang..before you wrap yourself in the flag and serve up apple pie...there is a difference between what I wrote: 'A CAUSE' and what I didn't write but you seem to have read: 'THE CAUSE'..there's a difference.
Thrawn: did I miss a part in the article that talks about US policy? and the effects it has on the rest of the world?
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Originally posted by Monk
You don't need to point a finger anywhere if the Muslims policed their own. Where are these "great " Muslim countries. If you think any Muslim country are our Allies, forget it. Every Major terrorist attack against the U.S. in the last 20 years have been Muslim Supported.
Islam= Muslim
Muslim=Islam
I don't see the difference.
How many times has the US attacked a Muslim country in the past 20 years? How many times has the CIA gone in and trained and armed rebels in muslim countries? Ya, know if the US would just police there own.
Muslim doesn't equal fanatic extremist.
hawk, sorry misread part of the article.
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Thrawn, let it go buddy, you were not there:rolleyes:
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Thrawn, you ever gone out of your way to do something good, but it turns out bad because of circumstances out of your control?
The Shaw of Iran was that example, goodness, with a democrasy that gave stability to the middle east...turned bad because of his personal greed. That was a seed for Anti-Americanism. Just one example...
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Thrawn, you ever gone out of your way to do something good, but it turns out bad because of circumstances out of your control?
The Shaw of Iran was that example, goodness, with a democrasy that gave stability to the middle east...turned bad because of his personal greed. That was a seed for Anti-Americanism. Just one example...
Beirut 82-86 :( :(
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"Every Major terrorist attack against the U.S. in the last 20 years have been Muslim Supported"
Timmothy McVeigh? Muslim? I'd say his attack could be considered a Major Attack..and he was a white boy red blooded US MILITARY VETERAN...christian to boot..
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Geez I'm sorry, State sponsered, better.
Hawk, Thrawn, have you ever been to a Muslim country, or even outside of your own countries?
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yup, I've traveled quite a bit, but not to any Muslim regions.
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Rgr.....They are ate up dude, The most problems they have are themselves. Not the U.S.:(
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I have travelled extensively as well. Not, however to any muslim countries.
I don't see what this has to do with US sponsered terrorism in Muslim counties.
Monk saying you were in Beirut form 82-86 doesn't prove a thing. Are you saying that the US didn't train and arm OBL, the Muhajadin and Hussein?
I've answer your question, now answer mine.
How many times has the US attacked a Muslim country in the past 20 years? How many times has the CIA gone in and trained and armed rebels in muslim countries?
PS: What were you doing in Beirut.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Monk saying you were in Beirut form 82-86 doesn't prove a thing.
It means he has a perspective that you do not have.
I've done a little traveling in Pakistan.
What Monk says.
Of course Thrawn, being on the ground there doesn't count as much as someone who just hasn't but has an opinion on it.
I'll take a stab at answering your question this way....
The US certainly did not help the Muslim situation, but, compared to how the Muslims are running it, we didn't really do that much harm to it either.
Cobra
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Originally posted by Thrawn
I have travelled extensively as well. Not, however to any muslim countries.
I don't see what this has to do with US sponsered terrorism in Muslim counties.
Monk saying you were in Beirut form 82-86 doesn't prove a thing. Are you saying that the US didn't train and arm OBL, the Muhajadin and Hussein?
I've answer your question, now answer mine.
How many times has the US attacked a Muslim country in the past 20 years? How many times has the CIA gone in and trained and armed rebels in muslim countries?
PS: What were you doing in Beirut.
Answer my question Thrawn.
Thrawn, you ever gone out of your way to do something good, but it turns out bad because of circumstances out of your control?
Again, OBL was to fight the Communists trying to take Afghanistan, something that started out in ours (and Afghanistans) best interest.
We'd just finished having a crisis with Iran, Iraq was at war with them, they were a natural to be our allie in that period of time.
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Cobra, fair enough. However, Monk didn't say anything about the situation, just that he was there, and I should "Let it go.".
Rip, yes.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
The Shaw of Iran was that example, goodness, with a democrasy that gave stability to the middle east...turned bad because of his personal greed. That was a seed for Anti-Americanism. Just one example...
Iran was a Monarchy under the Shah. The citizens were just as repressed as they are today and eventually they revolted. Basically we supported his regeme with arms, training, whatever- but there were no democratic freedoms like elections, so don't point to Iran as an example of democracy in the region. And any "stability" in the region was at the barrel of a gun. (Sorry, was there in '73)
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Iraq? but why?........oh geez... I forgot, was there to :(
Afganistan?.....Ok, but why?
Beirut?...didn't attack.
Somalia?.....didn't attack, but maybe we should, for old time sake.
and the CIA does alot less then you think.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Cobra, fair enough. However, Monk didn't say anything about the situation, just that he was there, and I should "Let it go.".
Thrawn, do you know why we were in Beirut?
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Originally posted by Elfenwolf
Iran was a Monarchy under the Shah. The citizens were just as repressed as they are today and eventually they revolted. Basically we supported his regeme with arms, training, whatever- but there were no democratic freedoms like elections, so don't point to Iran as an example of democracy in the region. And any "stability" in the region was at the barrel of a gun. (Sorry, was there in '73)
That pretty much somes up the Muslim world. but the U.S. is used a an excuse.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
PS: What were you doing in Beirut. [/B]
digging my buddies out:(
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As far as I know it was because Isreal kept bombing it.
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Originally posted by Monk
digging my buddies out:(
Crap.
Sorry Monk.
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Mhh, I was about to disagree with Monk about all Muslim countries being the same, and started Typing a list of countries that were not Gun-totting today.
Egypt...
and
....
errr....
couldn't find any other.
I discovered I have to agree with you now :)
[edit: was posted at the same time]
Ouch :(
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Crap.
Sorry Monk.
Don't worry about it stud.......I know who did it:mad
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Dont rely on the school system to teach your kids anything about world affairs or politics. You have to do it yourself.
Once it is fully realized and the appropriate self preserving actions are taken -it will be a terrible war, terribly one sided.
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Monk, were you there on October 23rd, 1983?
If so, I salute you and your fellow Marines. Especially the 241 Marines, Sailors, and Soldiers who died as a result of the suicide attack.
http://www.beirut-memorial.org/memory/brtnames.html
Semper-Fidelis
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Originally posted by hawk220
and you know teachers will not teach about the US policies that were a cause of 9/11 in the first place
diddly You!!!!
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
diddly You!!!!
Well... it is a consistent response... :D
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Considering the level of stupidity he was responding to. I think grunherz was simply trying to communicate in the only manner available to him.
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If you guys think for one second this teacher is going to walk into his classrooms on Sept. 11 this year and point fingers at American policy as the main reason for the terrorist attacks, you're sadly mistaken. Missives like that one are one of the reasons that union will never receive a dime of my money.
We're at war. I am not pulling punches, and I won't instill some hand-wringing guilt trip on our kids, I refuse to send the message that we are doing the wrong thing, and I believe we owe it to the soldiers in the field to send them the message of total conviction in what they are doing. You however (those that support the NEA on this) can feel free to create your own second Viet Nam atmosphere and dog the war effort at every step.
Personally, as a teacher I find the NEA disgusting.
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Originally posted by easymo
Considering the level of stupidity he was responding to. I think grunherz was simply trying to communicate in the only manner available to him.
yep, I gotta second his response.
hawk maybe you can go take jihad johny's place, I hear they are looking for a "few good" america hating sand suckers. :rolleyes:
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kieran... I wasn't aware that not joining the NEA was an option for public school teachers. If it is.... why are so many teachers members? seriously.
lazs
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I don't know if it's legal or not; they keep sending me hate mail and threatening to sue me, but I don't care.
Unions have their place, and I wish we had a good one. Fact is, we don't. I think maybe most teachers fall for the scare tactics, or feel that union is better than none. Some may even share the same agenda. I will say there is a lot of pressure to join, to be sure.
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THIS IS NOT A TROLL!
Kieran, I am honestly curious. What will you tell a student who raises his / her hand and asks "why were we attacked?"
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"It's Clinton's fault."
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I would honestly tell my students that Americans are not very popular in some Middle Eastern countries due to our allegience with Israel and our involvement with other countries. Honest enough, don't you think?
What bugs me about the NEA mandate is it specifically states we should avoid talking about blame, then goes on to say how our policies make others angry with us. That to me suggests we are blaming ourselves for the event, and I patently refuse to do it. I can share blame, but I will not take it all. Further, I think that telling our kids it is our fault undermines our war effort, hence my reference to the Viet Nam war.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
THIS IS NOT A TROLL!
Kieran, I am honestly curious. What will you tell a student who raises his / her hand and asks "why were we attacked?"
MT, haven't you learned a damn thing talking to the conservatives on these bbs? The world is black and white, bud. There are no varying shades of grey, so what you do is you pretend like it's 1961 all over again and we're just getting it going in Viet Nam. Then you tell all your 5th 6th, 7th or 8th graders that they should be PROUD to go fight for their country when they turn 18. You explain how the North Vietnamese started a war with us, so that's why they must fly half way around the world to fight. You smile appreciatively as they play "army" during recess, and you even chuckle when the kids make the Asian and Hindu students play the part of the Al Queda.
We allowed our kids to decide the validity of one war, and look what a disaster that was. It's much better that the people making the decision to fight aren't the ones actually doing the fighting. Oh MT I doubt any of Kieran's students would have the guts to question Kieran's personal view of global politics. Would you question a right wing idealogue over politics when they have the power to fail you in school if you disagree??
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When sept 11th rolls around this year i will be working with some really young kids (age 4-11) at a school.
If i am asked my America was attacked, i think ill just reverse the question and ask the child what he or she thinks was the cause.
I think the response will be something like "Because some people are mean to other people."
Sometimes the most simple answer to a question is the best one.
For example while i was at work the other day a yound boy about 5 years old wandered by and i started talking to him. (kids fascinate me and i talk to them every chance i get.)
He told me that his kitten had died and he then asked me why. So i asked him why he thought his kitten died. His answer was "because he was done living." Such a simple answer but so profound at the same time.
My point is that these kids probably already know why Sept 11th happened, and us telling them about racial, cultural, religious, and social differences will only make matters worse. Instead of telling these kids what to think, ask them what they think, you may just step back and think "holy crap, it really is just that simple."
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Gee, Elf, I could almost see your temples pounding that time.
I'm happy with myself, thanks for the compliment (right wing idealogue). As for personal agenda, I'm not allowed to include one, including inducing a hand-wringing guilt-fest over why we are responsible for those poor Islamic freedom fighters who were forced to bravely sacrifice themselves for a just cause (destroying the Great Satan). Honestly, I think what we should do is get out our mats, point towards Mecca, and pray five times that day. Now that would be something useful and enlightening to teach those kids.
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Aw, dammit, I can't believe I just advocated prayer in school... wait a minute, that's an eastern religion, that's ok then... just as long as it isn't Christianity... we can call it "identifying with their culture"...
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:D Kieran
"I would honestly tell my students that Americans are not very popular in some Middle Eastern countries due to our allegience with Israel and our involvement with other countries. Honest enough, don't you think?"
But Mr. Kieran I understand the Israel thing, but what about these "other countries"?
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"Take it up with your history teacher or mom and dad. Now, on to lesson 13..."
We don't have to pretend we have all the answers, you know.
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...or...
"Well Johnny, as you know our country has a long history of oppressing those we feel weaker or inferior to ourselves. Just look at what we did to the blacks and native americans! Times may have changed, but we sure haven't. We meddle in all the world's affairs, whisking our soldiers away to faraway places just hoping to create situtations where our guys might get a chance to unload a clip into defenseless villagers. You might say it is a bit of an American pasttime."
"As it turns out, some of these countries have grown tired of us killing and maiming their women and children, so they have bravely banded together to make us stop. They are uniting around the world to martyr themselves for the cause- just like those brave hijackers last year. It's a shame it cost so many freedom fighters' lives to communicate the message to America- 'Stop being so mean'. We hope we may learn from that, so that no more Islamic lives have to be sacrificed to make the world a better place."
Does that sound acceptable to you, Elf, and the NEA? ;)
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And finally, for Elf (on the outside chance he isn't trolling as usual)-
I have an uncle who served in Viet Nam. He didn't want to go, but did because he was sent and it was his duty. He killed people, saw people die, and came home in one piece. When he got home it was the midst of the anti-war protests, and he heard his share of derision. He wasn't real happy about the way he was treated, nor are any of the other fellows I know who served. So tell me, do we need to do this again to our soldiers? Will you be standing there with your protest signs at the airport (again?) yelling "baby killer" and such crap at them?
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Originally posted by Kieran
Gee, Elf, I could almost see your temples pounding that time.
I'm happy with myself, thanks for the compliment (right wing idealogue). As for personal agenda, I'm not allowed to include one, including inducing a hand-wringing guilt-fest over why we are responsible for those poor Islamic freedom fighters who were forced to bravely sacrifice themselves for a just cause (destroying the Great Satan). Honestly, I think what we should do is get out our mats, point towards Mecca, and pray five times that day. Now that would be something useful and enlightening to teach those kids.
LOL Nah, Kieran, that wasn't my temples pounding, that was my belly shaking. What are YOU looking at? Really, I have three rules-Never post angry, Never post drunk and, above all, Never post while drunk AND angry. And prayer mats in school?? We called them nap mats back in The Day. Speaking of The Day I had a High School US Gov't teacher tell us that when we got drafted he'd consider himself a failure if we actually submitted to the draft and served in Viet Nam. Of course with us being bullet proof he had little impact on conventional teenage thought in 1967-68. I see a lot of similarities between Viet Nam and what GWB is proposing to be a long, long, LONG war fought halfway around the world. My concern is that teachers of any political persuasion be careful in explaining what they say regarding this issue. Seems like a fair request to me, unless you're willing to offer equal time to an opposing point of view. (FYI I personally would have no problem having you as my child's teacher, nor Shuckins either. I'm sure both of you are dedicated professionals.)
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Guys like the gut, and hawk, are doing it right now. They are holding up those signs, and shouting those words, in places like this. The difference this time is that the silent majority is not being silent anymore.