Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Sandman on August 22, 2002, 10:11:04 AM
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Interesting read...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,777572,00.html
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Is it me, or was that story leaning to the left? :D
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Rip you lean so far to the right that I bet your knuckles on your right hand are raw,and the left hand is shiny and new.:p
Frodo
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Is it me, or was that story leaning to the left? :D
Mebbe a little bit... :)
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Seems even handed to me.
Consider Washington's two most prominent superhawks: Paul Wolfowitz (Rumsfeld's deputy) and his adviser Richard Perle. Who's Who in America is curiously vague about their precise whereabouts in the late 1960s, though it is fairly clear where they were not. As the shrewd and sceptical Republican senator Chuck Hagel said last week: "Maybe Mr Perle would like to be in the first wave of those who go into Baghdad."
The two Democrat leaders in Congress, Dick Gephardt and Tom Daschle, served; their Republican counterparts, Trent Lott and Dick Armey, did not. Tom DeLay, the most powerful hawk in the House of Representatives, missed Vietnam too: he was working as a pest exterminator. Reportedly, he once complained that he would have served; but, he said, all the places were taken up by ethnic minorities.
There are similar stories about almost every other prominent rightwing Republican of recent vintage. Newt Gingrich, ex-Speaker of the House, went the Cheney route; Kenneth Starr, Clinton's legal nemesis, had psoriasis; Jack Kemp, Dole's running mate in 1996, was unfit because of a knee injury, though he heroically continued as a National Football League quarterback for another eight years; Pat Buchanan had arthritis in his knees, though he soon became an avid jogger.
The best story concerns Rush Limbaugh, the ferociously bellicose radio personality, who allegedly had either "anal cysts" or an "ingrown hair follicle on his bottom". It is not my custom to mock others' ailments, but anyone who has listened to Limbaugh's programme can imagine the dripping scorn he would bring to the revelation that a prominent Democrat had skipped a war over something like that. Also, in his case, a pain in the arse is peculiarly appropriate.
:D
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"Jack Kemp, Dole's running mate in 1996, was unfit because of a knee injury, though he heroically continued as a National Football League quarterback for another eight years; Pat Buchanan had arthritis in his knees, though he soon became an avid jogger. "
This is grossly misleading.
NFL quarterbacks can get away with having bad knees because they do so little running. Look at Joe Namath. Look at John Elway (who is/was missing a tendon!). Lean over, take a three-step drop, throw. Scrambling five yards is different than running over a wall with 15 pounds of gear strapped to your back. I sure wouldn't want Namath or Elway covering me as I made my dash to a pillbox.
As for the arthritic knee thing, it is possible to jog on bad knees, and exercise has been proven to help the arthritic condition so long as the person starts out slowly and increases the stress slowly. Even though it won't cure the disease, it will increase the range of motion and manipulation of the affected joint. Jogging in t-shirt and shorts at a 15-minute mile pace is a lot different than humping in-country wearing combat boots with a rifle and steel helmet.
Combat training is much more rigorous and demanding on the body than any, and I mean ANY, athletic event other than maybe an epic adventure race such as the Eco-Challenge, and even then, those athletes eat a lot better than soldiers in the field.
Obviously, the writer (a) never served in the military (which he admits) and (b) doesn't participate in endurance sports.
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And Dick Armey is against Iraqi invasion - so he should not be listed among "hawks" making impresion that militarism is strictly determined by party lines.
miko
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Yeah, Viet Nam was such a patriotic war for us too (rolls eyes), however, I do have alot of respect for the men that went without question, served our country(Even Al, although thats the only respect I'd give him)
As to the non-participants, and the deserters, can ya blame them? A war started by Kennedy, and profited by the Johnsons?
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Yeah, Viet Nam was such a patriotic war for us too (rolls eyes), however, I do have alot of respect for the men that went without question, served our country(Even Al, although thats the only respect I'd give him)
As to the non-participants, and the deserters, can ya blame them? A war started by Kennedy, and profited by the Johnsons?
Profited by the Johnsons? Huh? Please do go on sir.
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May have been urban legend, but I believe Lady Bird Johnson had a very large stock option in companies that produced war materials for the USA. (Shrugs)
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You guys can't be missing the obvious; that is, democrats are using this tact to discredit republican efforts to continue the war on terrorism by going into Iraq. Smear the enemies to get results..
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That's why I don't vote for either party now.
Karaya2
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dam them libruls fer usin' smear tactics! we all know them there republicans would never stoop to such a thang! :rolleyes:
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Uh, KG45? Point to where I said only one side does this?
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You guys can't be missing the obvious; that is, democrats are using this tact to discredit republican efforts to continue the war on terrorism by going into Iraq. Smear the enemies to get results..
christ, you talk a lot of toejam.
if there is a war on, and you are elegible and called on and don't go...
then you are a piece of toejam not fit to serve our country in any form. a republican coward is just as gutless as a democratic coward. if you are a pacifist, put on a medics uniform.
blinders keep the horse from being frightened by the pretty machines, why do you wear yours?
and now for some angst directed at the board in general. this demo vs. rep crap is soooo very tiresome. do you folks truly believe and live by all the toejam you profess in the name of a "left" or a "right"? if so, i guess politics has replaced religion as the opiate of the masses.
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>>You guys can't be missing the obvious; that is, democrats are using this tact to discredit republican efforts to continue the war on terrorism by going into Iraq. <<
which part of this isn't partisan?
>>Smear the enemies to get results..<<
gee, if sorry if misconstrued, but maybe you could be less vague?
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>>if so, i guess politics has replaced religion as the opiate of the masses.<<
i think we should go back to having opium as the opiate of the masses! :D
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Combat training is much more rigorous and demanding on the body than any, and I mean ANY, athletic event other than maybe an epic adventure race such as the Eco-Challenge, and even then, those athletes eat a lot better than soldiers in the field. [/I
I made it through Army basic training, and a tour in Nam, with a crushed 4th lumbar, and the disc's above it and below it blown out completely. You can always find an excuse, if you are looking for one.
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Rush having a cyst on his bellybutton is good but the winner is.....
Tom DeLay, the most powerful hawk in the House of Representatives, missed Vietnam too: he was working as a pest exterminator. Reportedly, he once complained that he would have served; but, he said, all the places were taken up by ethnic minorities
heheheh
Gosh I really wanted to serve! but when I got there the darkies took up all the slots!
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Up the meds, Furious.
Everyone is discussing the merits of the claims, (apparently) failing to recognize the purpose behind them. Why do the claims suddenly surface at election time? That I point out the fact it's a democratic smear tactic is true, like it or not. Nowhere did I ever say the republicans don't do the same thing.
Sorry KG45, try to parse that out that way if you like, it just isn't there.
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Duke Cunningham.......
John McCaine......
Jim Karry (sp?).....
Another Dem who's name I can't remember.....
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I always said completing a tour of miltary service and/or enrollment in the reserves should be prerequisite for obtaininng citizenship franchise. Well, at least after I've read Heinlen.
miko
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whatever, kieran
anywho, how is pointing out service records, (facts), a smear?
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What the messenger is saying is this- you have no right to send our troops into combat when you yourself were too cowardly to serve yourself. This serves two aims- first, it undermines support for the largely republican effort to go into Iraq, and; it brings up the unsavory past of an elected official right before election.
In the first case, it avoids the issue of whether or not invading Iraq is a good idea by shifting focus to personal issues. Now the warhawks have to defend their personal pasts instead of fighting for the effort. In the second case it brings the character of the officials into question right when it can do the most harm.
Anyway, why does something have to be false to be a smear? Smear is the act of ruining a reputation, isn't it? Can't fact serve as well as fiction?
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What the messenger is saying is this- you have no right to send our troops into combat when you yourself were too cowardly to serve yourself.
the messenger is correct, reguardless of party affiliation.
it does not require medication to see you are a sucker for your "party". tow that line boy.
f.
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bleh, i broke my number one conversational rule. never argue politcs. its a useless subject that never gets anywhere. have fun and ignore me. bye
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Originally posted by Furious
the messenger is correct, reguardless of party affiliation.
f.
So then it was only right for Clinton to lob in the safe missles as opposed to really "doing something" about Bin Laden?
I knew you were a liberal furious.
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ok, one more...
So then it was only right for Clinton to lob in the safe missles as opposed to really "doing something" about Bin Laden?
did you not read the part where i said reguardless of party?
if you were too cowardly to serve your country, i don't think you should command it either.
liberal, phht. i am certain i don't fit neatly into your bipolar world view.
f.
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I'm confused. Matthew Engel, a Brit, is working for the Democratic Party by smearing Republicans in British news?
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Furious-
One more time here. If you cannot see what I am saying, and are suggesting I am toeing the line, what can I say? You don't see this as avoiding the issue of whether we should be going into Iraq by engaging in a debate about the moral character of the proponents? Whether or not it is true was nothing I ever contended; I am saying I see through the purpose for bringing it up now.
And yes, I was thinking of Clinton and his military record, along with W and his father. It works both ways.
Popeye-
Tell me why Engel brought it up if it was not to question the right of these people to suggest aggressive action against terrorism and Iraq. Last check, the Brits were over 50% opposed to such actions.
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Tom DeLay, the most powerful hawk in the House of Representatives, missed Vietnam too: he was working as a pest exterminator. Reportedly, he once complained that he would have served; but, he said, all the places were taken up by ethnic minorities.
That dammed Affirmative Action again :)
Charon
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I do have alot of respect for the men that went without question, served our country(Even Al, although thats the only respect I'd give him)
Rip, you bonehaid, I have a lot more respect for those that went, and did so WITH QUESTION, and with reservations, but went because they recognized their obligation to serve the nation when called.
This serves two aims- first, it undermines support for the largely republican effort to go into Iraq, and; it brings up the unsavory past of an elected official right before election.
An interesting collision of concepts there, Kieran.. I think I see your point; but allow me to comment that any elected politican with an 'unsavory' past deserves to have that info trotted out for public inspection and remonstration forthwith!
If it's partisan politics as usual, I got no intrest in it at all. In this circumstance, Iraq has violated just about every single point of settlement agreed to at the last cessation of open hostilities, and I was pissed at Clinton for not enforcing that treaty in detail. It don't matter a freakin bit who's for it, or against it. What matters is, Saddam the TowelHeaded GoatPorker needs his bellybutton kicked for violating that treaty.
Lets just get it done, so we can get on with our oft-delayed plans for nuking Paris.
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Hang, might i suggest getting the DVD of Armageddon and replaying that Paris vs. Asteroid scene for your enjoyment. Works for me.
:D
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That wuz the best part in the whole freakin movie.
I'd pay handsomely for the Paris scene as a poster. :D
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While looking for a picture I stumbled across this from a review of the movie:
It reduces "saving the world" to a goal which will earn its characters hero status. Consider a scene where a large asteroid fragment hits Paris, destroying half the city. Does anyone seem to care? Nope; it's just an excuse for a "really cool special effect."
ROFL
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Yeah, Viet Nam was such a patriotic war for us too (rolls eyes), however, I do have alot of respect for the men that went without question, served our country(Even Al, although thats the only respect I'd give him)...
Gore was a stars & stripes "journalist" when in country. this job was arranged by his father, senator gore, B4 gore jr. joined up. i'm sure little al was very brave dinking bourbon & water (lots of water) behind a desk on a well defended military installation in south vietnam. he got a few pix of himself holding an M-16 near some tall grass, but these are not indicative of his service.
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However I may feel about Al. He is a Vietnam Vet. Period.
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I agree easymo. He might have been an REMF, but he still went.
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a quote from the article..."Otherwise, it starts with the president, who missed Vietnam by securing a cushy number in the Texas air national guard after (so everyone assumes) his congressman father pulled strings to get him in."
Dan Quayle also was derided for his service in the Indiana National Guard when he was VP, and it just seems there are those who believe that serving our nation in the National Guard is somewhat questionable in the honor department.
Just a few facts:
The 1960's began with a partial mobilization of the National Guard as part of the U.S. response to the Soviet Union's building of the Berlin Wall. Although none left the United States, nearly 45,000 Army Guardsmen spent a year in Active Federal Service.
As the decade progressed, President Lyndon Johnson made the fateful political decision not to mobilize the Reserves to fight the Vietnam War, but to rely on the draft instead. But when the bombshell of the Viet Cong Tet Offensive struck in 1968, 34 Army National Guard units found themselves alerted for active duty, eight of which served in South Vietnam.
During the Vietnam war, almost 23,000 Army and Air Guardsmen were called up for a year of active duty; some 8,700 were deployed to Vietnam.
Twenty Army National Guard units from 17 states were mobilized for service in the Vietnam War on May 13th 1968. Company D (Ranger) of the 151st Infantry, Indiana Army National Guard arrived in country in December of that year. The Indiana Rangers were assigned reconnaissance and intelligence-gathering missions. Operating deep in enemy territory, Ranger patrols engaged enemy units while conducting raids, ambushes and surveillance missions. "Delta Company" achieved an impressive combat record; unit members earned 510 medals for valor and service.
Air National Guard units began flying supply missions to Vietnam in 1965, and the Air Guard was mobilized twice during the Vietnam War.
In May 1968 one aeromedical airservice group and two tactical fighter groups were federalized. Four tactical fighter squadrons--the 120th (Colorado), 174th (Iowa), 188th (New Mexico), and 136th (New York)--deployed to Vietnam. And although not a Guard unit, the Guard can claim credit for a fifth squadron, the 3755th: 85 percent of this tactical fighter squadron's personnel were Air Guard volunteers from New Jersey and the District of Columbia.
In April 1967, the North Carolina Air National Guard made its first C-124 flight to Cam Rahn Bay, Vietnam. Between January 1964 when the unit was designated the 145th Air Transport Group (Heavy) and then redesignated the 145th Tactical Airlift Group in May 1971, the unit accomplished a great deal. They airlifted over 23 million ton miles of cargo, 18 1/2 million passenger miles, 1.1 million patient miles, and over 11 million miles with a safety record of over 65,000 hours without an aircraft accident.
Seems like guardsman have contributed a full measure of devotion to the cause. Next time you read an article like this, keep in mind that the names of guardsmen are etched on the wall.
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He might have been an REMF
If they figure out what that means, your dead:)
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not easy keeping secrets from google
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http://www.vietvet.org/glossary.htm