Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Apache on April 27, 2000, 12:04:00 PM
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First, this is not my idea. I (borrowed) the basis from another player on a UBB from another sim.
It is my understanding that HTC produces Aces High as a game first, a sim second. I agree with this business model. Based on that theory, could HTC institute a no icons format in the MA without contradicting their own model?
The idea is this. Instead of icons, assign colors to the teams. Example: Knights Gold, Rooks Red and Bishops Green. Paint these colors on all a/c...nose, wing tips, horizontal stabilizer, etc. You obviously would need to get close to id an enemy, but who shoot's far away anyway (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
A problem I see already is identifying the ground vehicles. Or is it a problem?
Thoughts?
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Apache
Renegade Nation (http://members.xoom.com/ApacheXL/index.htm)
"Abandon All Hope"
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'scuse me !!!!!!!!
I am part of the 17% of men who are Colourblind........I guess I would NOT like that & Neither would my team mates...
I'd be ok with it if different countries would have to fly different planes.....
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Saw/Saintaw
=XO=II/JG2~Richthofen~
GMT T.O.D. SITE (http://www.wardogs.org/ah/)
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/saw190.gif)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
Don't shoot ! I am only an observer......
[This message has been edited by Saintaw (edited 04-27-2000).]
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Duh! Didn't think of that. And my son is color blind! Oops.
However, I do like the different plane idea.
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Apache
Renegade Nation (http://members.xoom.com/ApacheXL/index.htm)
"Abandon All Hope"
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I too once thought about the concept of different colored teams, but confess I didn't consider the colorblind aspect either. I rather thought that flying around in a completely yellow aircraft would lose some of the immersion value, not that F4Us attacking B17s escorted by 109s doesn't do a bit o' that already... but that's a different issue. Even if sides were restricted to flying selected aircraft, screen resolution (my screen at least) isn't quite adequate to ID aircraft based on shape at reasonable ranges. Unfortunately, I can't think of anything better than the icon system given the current state of technology and the game's format.
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How about NO ENEMY ICONS!
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(http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1/dtahcard.gif)
"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!
[This message has been edited by Downtown (edited 04-27-2000).]
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Damn straght downtown!
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XO Armor Dickweed Heavy Bomber group
---Joemud
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A few minor things you gents havn't considered.
Have you ever followed a plane at 500 yeards and watched him blend into the terrain?
Icons alow us not to have to match terrain colors to all the air craft but lets us use exact colors of the real planes.
Plane identification. For a test turn off your icons and try fly for a few fights.
See how well you can identify planes out side of 1500 yards and judge closure rates.
Detriment to the community aspects of the game.
Eleminating icon's would imply that you have to spend much more of your time looking around. This give you much less time for chatting on line, and hence removes some of the community aspects of the online world.
HiTech
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Hitech:
Are there any plans for a separate limited ICON arena with historical plane matchups?
Ram1
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Excellent response Lord HiTech. I will shut up now (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Although short, it was an interesting discussion. (For me anyway)
BTW Saw, by team mates, I assume you mean JG2? If you meant country, I am one of your team mates.
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Apache
Renegade Nation (http://members.xoom.com/ApacheXL/index.htm)
"Abandon All Hope"
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Good question Ram1
(http://www.ropescourse.org/cammo.jpg)
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ok. Try this. The next time you're on line for a decent amount of time (over a couple of hours) shut off icons by hitting [ctrl] twice as your'e taking off . Fly like that all night (or day) and then post a synopsis of your experience in here please. Then we can discuss this factually and on the basis of an actual experience, in Aces High, of an iconless environment (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-Westy
(i see I should have read the whole thread before posting but I'll leave this anyway)
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 04-27-2000).]
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HT,
How about no range info? I've never had a problem with icons other than they provide to much info. One of the major causes of the 1000 yds shooting is because we know range down to the yard. So how about the icons as they currently are just delete the range info.
Sharky
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I would be more inclined to change range info in close than at a distance. A lot of plane aspect that you could see at a distance is givin by the range info. Once your close enof to see the plane some of this information is not needed. For fiendly's I would keep the range info just because the since of closure is not there for formation flying.
As to long range shooting im not sure changing the range marker would change anything for the experianced pilot. If we would just set up a ringed gun sight to estimate ranges, an experianced pilot would be able to estimate the range on a rear shot very acuratly. And hence the long range shooting would still be there. BTW In my view the only resone people can hit at longer ranges is do to the amout of practice they have at it.
HiTech
There is also new flyier learning curves to think about. Teaching new players what gun ranges to shoot at is also a consern.
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Originally posted by Apache:
Excellent response Lord HiTech.
SH*T, now he's going to have a real Big Head,
Damm programers think they are good wingman. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif)
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!!! Heater !!!
(http://www.geocities.com/heater_nl/_private/heater1.jpg)
Shit Happens All The Time
"If you have any trouble sounding condescending, find a Unix user to show you how it's done."
[This message has been edited by Heater (edited 04-27-2000).]
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Thanks for dropping in on this thread hitech. Ram asked about an historical arena. For myself, I think the extra challenge of not knowing what the other plane is until he's right on ya adds to the game. I used to REALLY enjoy flying in Warbirds Historical arena for this reason. Although not for newbies, I think limited icon, 2 sided, historical plane matchup arena's are where I'd probably spend my time. Unlike warbirds, I wouldn't be billed for my time hunting the other guy and therefore I think an HA would be more popular here than in Warbirds.
Are there any plans for a future Historical Arena? I'd really enjoy an HA.
Your thoughts on this Hitech?
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Wouldnt the easiest thing right off the start in an HA arena setting be, No Icons till D2 or 200yrds, or even D1.5 150yrds.
Would be a hell of a thing diving in on a con (not knowing what country) 500kias finger tight on trigger just to find out he is one of your own AFK for a coffee (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
This would be the easiest setup for HT to implement. And any learning curve is accross the board. We all would have to retain ourselves till the last minute.
This would be acceptable till an onther way of dealing with Icons is found.
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You can tell what a con is at 500 yards, dont be silly. From my experience in gliders I'd say you could ID a con positively at about 1 mile (approx 1500 yards) Again,this is gonna vary between Granted, ID at 8000 yards is probably optimistic.
as to no range icons, well, thats nice if we have depth perception, but we wont. Like HT said, ranging was done using ring sights so i guess if they made those standard in AH it would be ok.
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Hitech would it be an idea to experiment with new arena setting for a day or too every so often. Where people could see what it would be like with no icons or short icons or no plane type indicated etc. (or any innovative icon setup)
I say this as people in general are idiots who wouldn't know whats best for them if hit them round the face with a stale haddock (this is why celine dion can sell a large amount of records)and perhaps if people tried something they shouted they wanted/ didn't want may decide they don't want it/ want it after all.
If people found one set up particularly good you could configure the arena to that on 2 days in a week. This way you can satisfy more people and not lose revenue as you don't lose revenue through people not flying because they don't like settings.
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I think you will find that HT setup the 8 person free server instead of an HA. I mean, really it's better to KNOW there are just 8 of you out there, flying the historical plane than running all over a full sized arena looking for a possible fight with no icons on.
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I remember playing Aces Over Europe. Still remember how tough it was to say who is that, enemy of friendly, and how much it spoiled the game.
Keep the icon system pls., it is fine.
Fariz
XII Legion
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Originally posted by hitech:
Eleminating icon's would imply that you have to spend much more of your time looking around. This give you much less time for chatting on line, and hence removes some of the community aspects of the online world.
HiTech
Is there someone else other than "ME" that spends evening in the tower looking at the Chat bar ??? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Saw
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Originally posted by Apache:
BTW Saw, by team mates, I assume you mean JG2? If you meant country, I am one of your team mates.
Hehehe, CC that Apache, I meant would the Knight realy apreciate me shooting some of us down then saying on the text buffer "Ooooops, I though you were red, sorry (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) "
PS : & Just imagine how much I would be pi$$ed off if Killshooter 'd be on ! LOL !
Saw
[This message has been edited by Saintaw (edited 04-27-2000).]
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HT,
Thanks for replying.
If we would just set up a ringed gun sight to estimate ranges, an experianced pilot would be able to estimate the range on a rear shot very acuratly. And hence the long range shooting would still be there.
I think that even with a graduated site (ie marks for wing span at differant ranges) at long ranges these would only be a 64th or 32nd of and inch wide. The ability to use them for long range would be to inaccurate (ie the differance between 700 and 450yds)
I agree that there is somethings that the 2d monitor can't provide that our Mk-1 Mod 0 eyball could in real life. However I think that with such accurate range information that "overall" we gain an advantage over real life in most cases.
Try fighting someone without range info, it really suprising. "Am I gaining?" When coming around in a turn fight "Am I gaining the angles or is he?" These questions are too easily answered with the accurate range info we have (all sims have) Give fighting without the range info a try, it's a hoot. It really adds a whole new aspect to the game
Sharky
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Back in my early training in WB's--My trainer would put us up (2 on 2, 3 on 3) with no icons. They were his idea of SA drills (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) THEY WORKED! Pucker factor was very high. Once you latched on it wasnt that difficult to close and score. But dont lose sight (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) He may end up on your 6 very quickly.
BTW--Sorrow. I dont think the H2H comes anywhere near a "Historical Arena". I wont speak for HT but certainly he didnt intend H2H to be an answer to a HA. But a wonderful feature H2H is! Personally I woulod love to see a Historical Arena. Theres something about facing off against another 109 when Im flying a 109 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
(http://www.ropescourse.org/cammo.jpg)
[This message has been edited by -ammo- (edited 04-27-2000).]
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Back in the FA2 advanced room we used to mutually agree to turn off tags. However, we were fighting in country sets with 109s and 190s vs. Spits and Hurcs or 51s and 38s vs. Yaks and LA5s. It was great and it took some time to get used to being able to judge range by relative size. The big whole in the whole scheme ofcourse was that somebody could be flying with tags and you wouldn't know it. This needless to say caused a bit of tension on more than one occassion when somebody would accuse another of not being honorable. I've only toyed with the idea in here because the 3 country scenario doesn't lend itself to it. Maybe those who want to try an inconless environment can do it in H2H with just a two country plane set.
Beeg
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I cant wait for the icon system WB 3.0 will have, they have said that their system will be much better then the current system used by the current online sims (roumours say no icons at all).
I gotta give the Ien team credit for atleast trying to solve the icon issue...
Regards.
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
(http://www.rsaf.org/osf/images/osf_inga.gif)
http://www.rsaf.org/osf/ (http://www.rsaf.org/osf/)
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Hblair has it right. Its been my contention that one of the major reasons a Historical Arena is not as populated as a Main Arena is the pricing scheme. With AH as a flat rate game, I believe that a Historical Arena would be extremely popular.
Face it, fighting late war planes (same planes like P51 vs P51) against each other at 20,000 feet will get boring after awhile. Historical plane matchups would be much more interesting IMO.
Unfortunately, I can't prove it until one of the companies tries a flat rate Historical Plane Set Arena. Right now its looking like WW2online will be exactly that but only time will tell.
Ram1
[This message has been edited by Ram1 (edited 04-28-2000).]
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Ram1,
I've seen you post but never in the arena. Do you fly AH? If so lets get together.
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Playboy Leader
307th FS/31st FG
You can run but ya just die tired
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Think about the new guys. They are probably having a hard enough time already. We don't need to confuse them even more. If anything, this sim needs aspects that will make it a little easier for newbies, without taking away the increadible existing realism. We want our cannon fodder to stay around for more than their free two weeks.
eskimo
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Thats true eskimo...
But ask yourself this, how many of the veterans will leave once there are an sim wich proves to be an greater challenge than AH?
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
(http://www.rsaf.org/osf/images/osf_inga.gif)
http://www.rsaf.org/osf/ (http://www.rsaf.org/osf/)
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Sharky:
I'm not flying AH, there is not enough differentiation over Warbirds for me to change.
However, a flat rate HA with limited ICONS and historical plane sets would cause me to reconsider.
Ram1
[This message has been edited by Ram1 (edited 04-28-2000).]
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Would there be any harm in trying a HA style arena for a day or two?
Then people can give more informed opinions.