Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: Buzzbait on August 24, 2002, 03:09:11 AM
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Burma: Early '44
The Japanese and British are
getting ready for their
slugfest at Imphal and Kohima.
Japanese:
A6M2
A6M5
Ki61
Ki67
Val
C-47
British
Hurri IIC
Hurri IID
Spitfire V
P-40E
FM-2
P-47D11
A-20
Boston
SBD
C-47
Ground units are light types.
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Kick But!
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A6 is showing to be allied, yet it shot me down and wouldn't fire on a axis plane flying over it. Thought you might like to know.
Ok, just upped that field and when I got on runway ack started firing at con and I was able to land back there no problem. Guess it need to be jump started :)
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The FM-2 is available at allied bases, is this a bug? or part of the setup that wasn't listed above.
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S!
Sorry forgot to mention the FM-2. I included it as an interesting addition to allow pilots to try it out versus some '44 Japanese aircraft.
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Originally posted by Buzzbait
S!
Sorry forgot to mention the FM-2. I included it as an interesting addition to allow pilots to try it out versus some '44 Japanese aircraft.
Well gee then lets give the Axis the FW-190 to try out as an interesting addition against the 1944 Allied birds.:D
The Allies got the P-47D, and the SpitV, if thats not enough to dodge now the FM2? Which didnt fly in Burma, hey give us a little bit of a break huh. If you keep overstacking these damn Allied vs IJ setups, there is never going to be enough Japanese.
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Have to agree with Lowe Buzz, was a very bad decission to add the P-47 & FM-2 to the plane set for this CT scenario - interesting or not.
I have no problem with the rest of the plane set and it would have made a very interesting battle as the sides being pretty close to even. I will have to look at my history books again but I don't seem to remember the P-47 & FM-2 much in Burma.
It does seem every time we get a PTO CT set up the Allies manage to have an "Ubberbird" in the mix. I point out one of the last PTO scenarios where the F4U-4 Corsair got put in - "just to make it interesting."
As Lowe said you don't have very many willing to fly Japanese as it is. No scense trying to run them off.
Jester
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Jester and Lowe are right on the money. I would much prefer matchups to be kept historical as well.
If the deck must be stacked for interesting matchups, then please give the Japanese the N1K2. It after all is a 1944 plane too, and the Japanese have such a timy planeset to begin with.
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S!
There are lots of '44 planes here. In fact, the A6M5 is a '44 plane. The particular model of Ki-61 Tony may be a '44 model too. The P-47D11 is a mid '43 plane, and although it was not used in Burma, neither was the Tony. Neither as far as I know was the A6M5 used there or even the A6M2. Burma was IJA front, and therefore got the Army planes, namely the Oscar and before it, the Nate. The Tony was reserved for the 'important' fronts, like the southern Pacific.
You can look at this setup as combining a '43 Rabaul/New Georgia and 'early '44 Burman setup. The P-47D Razorback was used in the Rabaul area. The British did use P-47D's in Burma, but they were later, and they were the bubble top model AFAIK.
And the N1k2 is a '45 plane. The N1k1 was the '44 model, and it was not used in Burma at all since it was a Navy plane.
As far as balance goes, I think this one is pretty close. Certainly the Axis have had the advantage in the previous Burma setup, so this is a nice illustration of how the tide of war began to change.
I have removed the FM-2.
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Hey now Andi:), that F4U-4 was not unbalencing, the George handeled it well, in retrospect I would not add it again, I think more to the point is the tiny plane set the Japanese have to work with, and what exaserbates that fact is the comparatevly huge plane set the allies have.( Also the US NAvy had no place in that set up I mearly added them for the CV orenated squads)
Also I do beleave the P 47 was in Burma, I seam to recall RAAF makings on one, I may be tryping but I recall a pic of one....
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Hmm.
Buzzbait, I have to disagree that the Axis had the advantage in the last Burma.
The A6m2 is no advantage, and I may piss a few off here, but this is just my opinion. Here is why I have this opinion, so show me where I am wrong.
Speed: Advantage Hurri, P40B, F4F.
A6M2 slower than all. In here anyway
Firepower: Advantage F4F, and P-40B. Yes I know the A6M2 has the 20MM but one good fart and their gone, add to the fact that you have to get in less than 200 to ensure a killing, and it's prob my dweebness, but i can't ensure a kill until less than 150 with a A6m2. Add the short ammo load of the 20mm and the kill range of the 50 cals. I don't see an advantage for the A6m2. But then again I spent too much time getting shot down to see anything.
Manuverability: Advantage A6m2, but barely. The F4F, and Hurri I both can turn with the zeke for a short time, which is just usually enough for the zeke pilot to be just out of cannon range but well within range of his targets wingman, so he can get his purty little zeke turned into a roman candle.
Durability: I've seen tougher butterflies than the A6m2, a dirty look will kill it. Advantage Allies.
Take all that and throw in the fact that the IJ had one fighter to choose from and 3 fighters to react too, the Allies always knew they were gonna fight a Zeke, and never had to change their tactics because of a different threat.
So show me the advantage, all you have to look at is any hour during Burma or the Solomons, and watch who is landing kills, 4 out of 5 times it was Allied not the Zeke pilots.
I agree with you that the A6M5 was not a Burma plane, and we don't have Ki-43s, and KI-44s, KI-45s, so theres not a lot you can do. I understand, but don't give me the Axis had the advantage in Burma or the Solomons, in these set-ups. It's also not your fault I am a disgruntled IJ pilot thats my fault.:D
But flying PTO's was getting boring with nobody to fight, so a few of us switched to help even things out.
The real point we're trying to make is please limit the experiments by adding another plane to a side thats already got P-40E 3 diff Hurris, Spitfires, and P-47s. Did we really need to see how much more we could give the Allied side when the IJ's got the Ki-61, and the 2 Zekes?
Look I know it's absurd to expect you to make us all happy. It's also absurd for a guy not into Japanese planes to be in a Sentai, but damnit somebody has to be the bad guy. For me the best part of being in a CT Sentai is an ETO set-up so I can fly Luftwaffe planes.:rolleyes:
Hell even the Imperial navy had enough sense to replace the A6m2 with the A6m3, by the Battle of Midway.
The M2 was not the legendary fighter it's made out to be. The pilots were very experianced, the Allies were not. Once the Allied pilots got experiance they never looked back. Sheesh ramble mode off.
:D
The biggest problem we have is numbers, if you give one side 6 differnt planes to choose from, and the other 3, why add another to the side that already has 6?
Where do you think most the people are going to go? Right where they can get most choices..............
Sooner or later your gonna run out of Japanese pilots if this keeps going.
We don't need the N1k2 in Burma, the Ki-61 and A6m5 are fine, but we don't need the FM2 ethier.
Just my 2 cents, plus a dollar tip for your paitence.
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What he said.... :D
Jester
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sentai, you guys need to try flying that a6m2. Everywhere but on the deck the speed is better than the p40, Fastest I have gotten the e in level flight is 300mph. The a6ms climb better too.
The damn thing dives at 570 with little problem. That plane alone could win the map for you.
P40 is useless as long as the new zero behaves like it does. That leaves us the spit. yeck. Fun to fly, but makes me feel all icky inside.
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Well if it's so great you fly it!:D
Sorry Erg you guys can't sell me on the M2. 1V1 it's great, one more allied aircraft in the area it's a sitting duck.
Guess it's just my boom and zoomer mentality, I never was a hard turning dogfight guy. If it has one good quality it's manuverable other than that it's just so much metal looking for a place to crash.
If it gives you fits, you must be commiting to a turning fight. The A6M5 is a much more dangerous plane to fight IMO.
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Ohhh I was jsut starting to enjoy that little F2M :)
Biggest reason i flew allies last night was that the numbers when I entered, was in the Japanese favour, then it evened out and stayed like it all night untill we all left (about the same time).
I always try and even up the sides when I am in the CT.
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I really appreciate the effort put into all of the setups.
But I'm with the guys who'd like to see an end to the "what if", "for some variety" and "interesting addition" stuff.
Splash1
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Buzz. Thanks for listening and responding.
I hope more people fly Japanese and post comments about the
plane performance matchups. Its interesting to see.
I really do hope HTC is going to seriously augment the Japanese side with more planes in v1.11. I thought that was going to happen in v1.10, but instead we got just 2 of the 9 new A/C. With Target:Rabaul nearing open beta, I'm afraid we're going to lose the few dedicated Japanese pilots we have unless something is done.
AH could still offer something TR cannot if it concentrates on later war Japanese planes like the Ki.44, Ki.84, Ki.100, and J2M3 (I know both the Ki.44 and J2M3 will be present in the first TR distribution, but they will not be used in the game). Mid- to Late-war is where the best matchups lie IMHO anyway, actual history notwithstanding.
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The thing with TR is, that after the release everybody can make their own planes thanks to the Targetware engine. Don't be surprised if the players start making their own planes and add, and if they are good enough maybe the TR team are willing to add them in the public download or something, depending on the team of course. Otherwise the players can just use them them selfes in their own servers. So the late war planes will come for sure in TR aswell, maybe faster then we all think.
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Isn't A6M5b a 1943 plane?
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Oh, and by the way, the P-40Bs, F4F-4s vs A6M2s were very well balanced against each other, and fighting them(in both sides) was a very interesting experience in previous Burma setup.
The A6M2 is not as incompetent as it seems.
Be it 1 vs 1, or many vs many, the A6M2 holds its own against the P-40B and the "MILD"cats :D.
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If you want bnz that ki cant be beat in this scenario.
Last night I was dogging in a p40 against catseye in a a6m2, I came in with mucho alt, but no difference he eventually got the upper hand (he is darn good in those clouds). The only way I could get away is to slowly get him down to the deck (a6m2 can outdive a p40, even turning at 400 mph) and then out run him at tree level, which is really the only place where the p40 speed stands out at normal altittudes.
Fight lasted for 15 minutes nobody died but I think cats coulda smoked me 3 times but was just being nice.
As far as group tactics, any of these planes will have fits 2vs1.
I am going to try to get my wing to fly p47s tonight, hehehe
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Just a side note and an agreement with Kweassa. I was restless last night and went into the CT around 3 AM (CST). I was flying our Squads Normal Bird, the Ki-61, and doing fairly well with it Nothing super, yet I was finding a few fights, mixing it up, and surviving most of them. Got a few Kills, and got killed by a few, LOL The only A/C on the allied side that outran me was an A20G! That thing is virtually uncatchable when it decides to run.
The point of My Post is that while flying between A25 and A26, I spotted the unmistakable White of an A6M2 mixing it up with varios birds, Hurries, Spits, P40's and P47's. Each time I thought to myself, " Oh Lord, I better get over there and Help that Guy ! " Instead of assisting another player survive, I was treated to some Superlative Aircraft Handling. It was like I was watching an areial ballet. There was no doubt in my mind, that I was watching an artist at work, one that had completely Mastered the tool that He was using. The only times I even saw an enemy plane fire on him was in a 2 vs 1 engagement, and I think they were desparation shots, as the tracers were nowhere near him. Each time I saw Him fire, I saw an enemy plane fall from the sky or explode. Eventually, while I was flying orbits around this show, a message appeared on the Country text buffer.
" Ryu : I'm RTB for ammo . "
A few minutes later, while I was doing my best to stay between Ryu and any enemy A/C so he could return to base, the text buffer popped up with:
" Ryu has landed 7 kills in an A6M2 of .... "
Ryu, that was a beautiful display of the Mastery of a machine.
While I know that the supply of Ryu's is limited, it provides me with the hope that one day I shall be able to Master an Aircraft in the same manner. :)
Ryu helped Me remember an important lesson. Those that do not know their aircraft inside out, front to back, side to side, often die in those aircraft. I intend to learn My aircraft, to the best of My ability, instead of feeling outclassed by a "better" aircraft.
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The Guys that set up these CT scenarios, really have a a hard time trying to please everyone.
I understand that. The ETO's are usually better balanced than the PTO's. It's not the CM's fault they only have so much to work with. It's not a fault of HTC ethier, HTC is a business, and the popularity of USA, and European aircraft dictates, that these are the planes to add first.
To face facts not nearly as many people have shown interest in the Japanese plane set, the Italian, and USSR planesets could use some additions as well.
So my pissing and moaning is really useless, and I ethier need to accept the fact that flying Japanese is a challenge, and press on, fly,and shutup, or move on to another side or sim.:D
Splash1 would like to see more what if scenarios, thats great if you have enough what if aircraft. If you don't the question what if, can be easily answered. The side with 3 types of aircraft that are mediocore, are going to get their face kicked in by the side that has mediocore, and more modern types.
Example the last Kurel islands setup.
Yes Kweassa the A6m5 was a 1943 aircraft it came out about the same time as the F6F3. The A6m5 stands up well against it's foes.
The pilot quality of the IJN had been decimated by that time though due to Midway, and the pilot attrition of the Solomons battles.The A6m3 came out in 1942, and was a bit of an improvement over the A6m2, but not as vast of improvement as the A6m5.
Buzzbait is correct though the A6M5 was not used in Burma, the CBI, China Burma India theater was really more of a IJAAF show, and to be perfectly honest we're still better off in early Burma flying A6m2s, than we would be flying Ki-43's.
Erg I agree with you that the P-40B, vs the A6m2 is advantage A6m2, and to be honest I'd rather be in a A6M5, than a P-40E.
The F4F, is a much better plane than the A6M2, in my opinion, and the way the FM2 is flying it's almost more of a threat than the F6F.
Hopefully someday all the planesets will be full, but the damn list of missing aircraft for all countries is still pretty vast, and the folks at HTC have to get some sleep every now and then.;)
Don't take my whines as a lack of appreciation for what these CM's do. If it wasn't for them I wouldnt even fly AH, because I am not a Main Arena type. If some of you are convinced that the A6M2 is a great aircraft and I just suck and don't know how to fly it, you may well have a point. I am not one of those Ace of the Base, types that can fly everything well. I can hold my own in P47's, F6F's, FW-190s, and Bf-109s.
The Ki-61, and A6M5 I do pretty fair in, the A6m2 is a damn death trap for me, and it's not like I havent spent a lot of time in it.
I have yet to see the big advantage people says it has in any setup yet though.:confused:
CM's keep up the good work feedback be it glowing or critical is a good thing guys, it's never an attack on you or HTC.
If people don't get opinions, and ideas out, nobody benefits.
Salute!
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I think another thing that trips up the CT and historical scenarios, is the fact that they were not evenly matched in history, and if they were it was only for a little time.
The other problem is that numbers cannot be represented no matter what the cms try. Lets say the majority fighter aircraft in some battle was the zero vs the f4f but there were a couple of kis and f4us. We replicate that plane set and its probably going to be even numbers of f4u f4fs zeros and kis. That means it will be a very unbalanced arena (well actually that would be pretty even, but you get the idea).
I love the CT, but I cant wait for the mission arena.
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Ryu is brave enough to fly Zeros in the MA :D
He's the one of the few guys who ups in a Zero and comes back alive :)
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lol, axis pilots complain about allied planes, allied pilots complain about axis planes. The more things change the more they stay the same:cool:
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Originally posted by Löwe
Splash1 would like to see more what if scenarios, thats great if you have enough what if aircraft. If you don't the question what if, can be easily answered. The side with 3 types of aircraft that are mediocore, are going to get their face kicked in by the side that has mediocore, and more modern types.
Example the last Kurel islands setup.
Not that it's a huge deal or that being misquoted is terribly critical here ....
but I wrote that "I'm with the guys who'd like to see an _END_ to the 'what if', 'for some variety' and 'interesting addition' stuff."
Ergo, I _don't_ want to see more of it.
Geez Löwe, you can't even let me agree with you? :)
Splash1
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Originally posted by Dennis
Not that it's a huge deal or that being misquoted is terribly critical here ....
but I wrote that "I'm with the guys who'd like to see an _END_ to the 'what if', 'for some variety' and 'interesting addition' stuff."
Ergo, I _don't_ want to see more of it.
Geez Löwe, you can't even let me agree with you? :)
Splash1
Damn sorry Splash1!!
Guess I worked myself into a frenzy on this subject, even more reason for me to shutup.:D
My apologies Dennis
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Lowe,Lowe,Lowe When will it ever end, just have another Stag and jump into that lil ole rice burner, thank the Emporer for the opportunity to die for him and face it like the man you are! Oh ya and by the way, stay the hell off my 6, that goes for Jester too!
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After a first real try-out, I think the plane set is very interesting.
I flied for both sides today, and it was a enjoyable experience for both sides even though the Allies consistently had about 10 more people. Situations changed in a very fast tempo so it was pretty hard to figure out who was advantaged and who was disadvantaged.
But you have to admit, once SpitVs are in, all the majority of the people were flying SpitVs. Only one~two people in P-47s, and just as much in Hurricanes. No P-40s were to be seen.
But nevertheless, the Ki-61 and the SpitV is a very interesting match up, and thogh the allies have speed, altitude and firepower to their side, one mistake and they all succumbed to the Zeros - like ants swarming on a dead rat :)
When the Allied were flying in orderly, well organzied manner, they were a big threat, and seeing the high Allied planes looming around was a very frightening sight :eek: .. but without strict discipline gone, the advantage quickly shifted to the Japanese planes - very historical!
Thus, JP tactics formed naturally.. faster Ki-61s, with great dive, would engage and lure allied planes low. Once low, the Zeros kick in and most Allied planes seemed to fal under panic jumping into low fights - though they had numbers, they split up, their collective and orderly formation was shattered, they were isolated, and got shot down one by one. After that, whilst the shotdown Allied were reforming, the Ki-61s chased the few survivors and got them too.
All in all, Burma showed its potential for interesting tactics. And even though the IJAAF and IJN planes are seemingly disadvantaged, hey, guess what, real pilots had to put up with disadvantaged situations. And it wasn't so disadvantageous that it couldn't be overcome with good tactics :)
Ah, I love the CT.
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Yep, have to agree. Last night it did not take long for my squaddies to see the wonder that is the p47. There is no turning with them darn rice burners, so you might as well get a monster 8 barreled beast that goes real fast. That 47 is a good climber in comparison as well.
much fun last night.
erg
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I think the A6M2 and the F4F are matched pretty well. In the previous Burma terrain I did just about the same in both planes (tho it's hard to know for sure because some of the F4F numbers came in the Malta/Sicily setup). Fly to the individual plane's strengths and you'll do fine. Of course, in this setup, the A6M2 is a little bit more in trouble due to the P-47s speed and the Spit V's performance and Hispano action. Tho the Hurri IIc prolly is the premiere early Zeke shredder with the quad Hispano action. :) When did this setup go live anyways? Was still Tunisia when I flew Friday night.
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I have to agree with what kewassa said above .At first i was displeased that the p47 was here (the rest of the planes i got no problems with) but it does not take long to find an advantage or too lose it aginst any plane unfortunally it will cost lives to find this out thank goddness this is only a game and not R/L ( it only takes one mistake to lose a fight ) . I rarely flew Japanese planes till the CT got started and I joined a Japanese squad. I find them most enjoyable to fly out of all the countries represented here with the Russian set a close second .
I am sure its only a matter of time till the Japanese get some more choices to fly (hopefully not too long)
Any way I had alot of fun defending A8 frome the hordes of allied planes thrown at it last night as of 12:30 am we still held it
to all the brave fliers involved. :)
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Man, I can't wait for an August 1945 setup.
Give us the Ki-84!!
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Just want to throw my own big
to all who flew this weekend, especially yesterday (Sunday). I flew mostly Japanes this weekend, the Ki61 specifically, and felt evenly matched or better against all the allied planes. Special thanks for the great team tactics provided by (to name a few I remember) Skatstr, Booyah, Oleg, and Cajun. I had some great fights, and finally found my gunnery-eyes again. to my opponents as well. "GK" and calls abounded, which made killing (and dying) all the more fun.
Sabre
CT Staff
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Oh yes the1945 Kurils Is. (even w/o the Ki84) set up is my favorite setup in the CT other than BOB leave out the USN planes(did not participate in this campange) it would be my No. 1 setup in here.
You CT CM's to a good job keep it up.
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Originally posted by ergRTC
sentai, you guys need to try flying that a6m2. That plane alone could win the map for you.
P40 is useless as long as the new zero behaves like it does. That leaves us the spit. yeck. Fun to fly, but makes me feel all icky inside.
I agree with most all of this. I think the P40 can do all right, though, if you restrain yourself when flying it. After flying the A6M2, and watching others fly it, I thought that when I checked out these boards today I would find everyone complaining that it is too uber.
- oldman
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Seriously doubt you will EVER here THAT in here Oldman. :D
MY KINGDOM FOR A KI-84!
Jester
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I will do the Kuriles again , but after the next update I think, hopefully we will get some more planes, and I will lieave out the US CV's:), that I added the second time I ran it.
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Mine too Andi, maybe we can do a package deal:)
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Originally posted by ergRTC
That leaves us the spit. yeck. Fun to fly, but makes me feel all icky inside.
Amen.
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S!
Glad everyone liked the setup.
I would like to try an early '44 Rabual setup if we get a map.
That would likely see the F4U-1 added, and the Hurris and Spits deleted.
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man that would be great.
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Man...that will be a great setup!! Bring it!!!! :)
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Hurry please would love it, we want US Carriers
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ah Rabul:D This would be nice.