Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Wilbus on August 25, 2002, 08:10:10 AM
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Yup.
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It's Bacon!!! :eek:
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Are you refering to the fact that it is too slow at altitude, or something new? Please elaborate.
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Way too slow at altitude, climbs too bad (about 2.3 meters per second too bad to be exact). And the fact that the GM1 and MW50 don't seem to modelled at all. Specially not the Gm1. The only thing that is modelled with the GM1 and MW50 in the TA152 is the weight...
But then again, I've posted proof several times so I really don't know why I care anymore, think I'll just drop it here and see what else will go wrong...
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I can say this much and yes it is related to FIghter Ace but god I loved flying the D-12. The 152 is at best a lashed up D-9 that is slower with a little bit better in armament. To me there really is no reason to fly the 152 unless like me you just love GE planes. I don't even think the damn thing should be perked at all. Performance speaking I can track them down in my dora even at 20k. And how many times do we actually get above 20k? I think I might have hit it twice this month chasing a lanc or two :) If they are fighters no reason to go up there as the 152 accelerates like an old person thats constipated. And that is at all alts. I think maybe 1-2 perks would suffice but 20 still is high for it.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Way too slow at altitude, climbs too bad (about 2.3 meters per second too bad to be exact). And the fact that the GM1 and MW50 don't seem to modelled at all. Specially not the Gm1. The only thing that is modelled with the GM1 and MW50 in the TA152 is the weight...
HTC has the same problem what RAF in post WW 2 test of Ta- 152. Impossible to find GM-1 and MW-50.
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its stuff like this that confuses me . why wont they just fix it i wonder.
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Originally posted by lord dolf vader
its stuff like this that confuses me . why wont they just fix it i wonder.
Good question. :)
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HTC has the same problem what RAF in post WW 2 test of Ta- 152. Impossible to find GM-1 and MW-50.
I'm not sure if your saying that there isn't any info available that the 152 carried Gm1/Mw50, but i'll post this anyway.
Go to the Ta152H-1 (ah model), and it's listed as ja,ja (yes,yes) for Mw50 and GM1. Not sure why it isnt in the AH model
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Also notice that on that Chart the H-1 should reach 755 (470 MPH). Personally, i have never seen the AH 152 over 400 MPH
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HTC has the same problem what RAF in post WW 2 test of Ta- 152. Impossible to find GM-1 and MW-50
He means to say:
"HTC has the same problem (that) RAF (did) in post WW 2 test of Ta- 152. Impossible to find GM-1 and MW-50"
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Ohhh, you mean the actuall GM1, and MW50 liquid?
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Originally posted by Heinkel
Also notice that on that Chart the H-1 should reach 755 (470 MPH). Personally, i have never seen the AH 152 over 400 MPH
You mean 471.875 least to my calculations but who am I to know anything that isnt alreayd known or stated.
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Originally posted by Heinkel
Also notice that on that Chart the H-1 should reach 755 (470 MPH). Personally, i have never seen the AH 152 over 400 MPH
Oh, I've most definately had it over 400. Left a P-51D in the dust at 19,000ft.
However, it does not reach 471mph like it should. Maybe 450mph, but definately not 471mph.
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i've read in other thread that the air speed indicators in AH cockpits are realisticly inaccurate
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They have a TAS indicator (small red line).
Besides HTC having "better"/"more trustworthy" material on the planes, I don't see a reason for things like these to not get fixed. Remember the 190a5 deck speed, 190 roll rate etc.
I'd really like to know what data the FM's based on - when Ami planes are modeled up to factory test data, why are the Kraut ones not up to RLM test data ?
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Like Karnak said, 400mph, no problem at all, although it does take half a life time to reach it (guess Kurt Tank was just imagining it being good at acceleration, he probarly dreamt it). 470, no way what so ever in AH.
I think I am one of the persons on this board who knows most (I said one, not THE one) about the Ta152. The reason RAF test reports don't mention the GM1 and MW50 is because they never tested it with those two power boosts. They were happy with what they had after testing it and since the war was over there was no need to test it with the GM1 and WM50.
I have the same chart as Heinkel posted, looked at it many many times aswell as many other charts and test reports.
Like I said before, the only thing with GM1 and MW50 that seems modelled for the Ta152 in AH is the extra weight.
The Red Line measures the true airspeed which is of course what we've been looking at, max true airspeed is about 450 as Karnak stated before.
The climb speed of should also be 20 meters per second. AH Ta152 does 17.6 meters per second.
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I tend to agree with Wilbus on why RAF didn't test it with the two systems.
If they really wanted the GM-1 and MW50 should have been VERY easy to produce.
MW50 practically gives out it's content in the name (methanol/water 50/50), and GM-1 could be picked up at the local dentist :)
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They didn't test it is the truth, it's in their test reports. Wasn't just something I took a guess on. It was like it, they didn't test it because they were happy with their results :)
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I love Reschke and his comments. but then again he could fight a tempest down low as I cannot in a 152 and I do't find myself to be that shabby in the 190 series :)
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From book "Wings of Lw" of Captain Eric Brown.
High performance at all altitudes was ensured by its 18.7 I mp gal(85 l) of nitrous oxide (GM 1) and 15.4 Imp gal(70 l) of methanol-water (MW 50), which, injected into the Jumo 213 E engine according to the altitude at which the fighter was flying, boosted output mightily. Perhaps this was the clue as to why the Ta 152 H-1 was never really put through its paces in the UK
--we had no GM 1 or MW at Farnborough! ....--> Pag 88
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Exactly Darkglam :)
Thanks :)
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I have reached in AH about 455 TAS at 41k with WEP , although it takes forever to get there it does reach that speed (breaks 450), which it's still missing about 17 MPH more, I do think this should be fixed, all the books I have list the Ta152 at having a top speed of 472 at 41k,that's for the H-1 model.
If it's true in fact the Ta152 climbs at 23 m/s ,then indeed it would be perk worthy! It would only be challenged in climb rate by it's other LW un-perked counterpart the 109G10 currently in AH, I read this in another thread, don't remember which, so don't get confused as to where I got this figure from :D, 2.3 m/s won't see much but in a minute it would translate into the 152 missing out on some of it's performance in climb.
I can't say anything about acceleration yes it seems slow true, but I have not found anything denying or accepting it was a great accelerating aircraft so in that I won't take a stand.
One other thing I think should be fixed in the Ta152 is the wing fuel being redistributed to the fwd and aft tanks at least up until 75% when you intend to do long range flights because for general flights say 25 miles to 50miles I would think with about 75% FWD and AFT tanks in the Ta being filled would get you aloft for a long time, again putting the example forth of how the P51D's AFT Aux tank is filled with fuel would be a perfect example as to how the Ta152 the secondary wing tanks should be filled.
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Climb rate was 20 meters per second. In AH it's only 17.6 meters per second.
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Sorry Will didn't see your post well 20 m/s sec is quite a cl rate. If it's wrong then it should be fixed.
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Not if...
The TA152 is actually not porked... it's FUBAR.
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so...what? ;)
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I have a few books by Eric Brown and they are a must read.
What has always surprised me is that the Fw 190A is always modelled as a dog compared to the Spitfire IX. Eric Brown consideres them a perfect match and states that in a 1 on 1 fight the victory would go to the better pilot! Not enough experience in AH, but I find the Fw 190 a flying dumptruck so far.
As a side note: Eric Brown actually flew both aircraft extensively as a test pilot and has combat experience flying Wildcats and Spitfires. He is actually the wolrd record holder in number of aircraft types flown (including the Me163, alas not under own power) and the greatest number of deck landings.
I have read an actual wartime trial between a captured Fw 190A-4 and an early Spitfire IX. Speed and climb rate (!) are almost identical up to 22.000 feet, above this the Fw 190's performance drops significantly. The Spit has of course the better turn due to its low wingloading, but the Fw 190 could outdive, outroll, outaccelerate and outgun the Spitfire.
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"In December, 1944, Kurt Tank went up in one of the test flights himself and was flying a Ta. 152 H between Lagenhagen and Cottbus when he was intercepted by two American Mustangs. He had a very easy escape: He simply opened the throttle and left the enemy far behind."
[WW2 Airplanes, Vol. 1, Rand McNally]
Apparently he was flying the AH version of the Ta. 152 or it would have read:
"He simply opened the throttle and... there was no perceptable increase in acceleration. 'Himmel!' Tank cried as he was rapidly overhauled by the superior American fighters. Descending in a parachute later, Tank thought to himself "Ach, der plane ist eine crappenfleugen, und definitely not vorth 20 of der perkies! I vill vork on der copy of der free LA7 uberflieger!"
- SEAGOON
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"He simply opened the throttle and... there was no perceptable increase in acceleration. 'Himmel!' Tank cried as he was rapidly overhauled by the superior American fighters. Descending in a parachute later, Tank thought to himself "Ach, der plane ist eine crappenfleugen, und definitely not vorth 20 of der perkies! I vill vork on der copy of der free LA7 uberflieger!"
RFOL!
Seriously, Wilbus and Heinkelv - why don't both of you sent to Dale or Doug what is wrong and how they should fix it?
Here is my take...
When I was modelling planes for SDOE, one the hardest elements in aircraft design was getting the weight to power ratio right. There are three elements to an aircraft's power: torque, rpm, and horsepower. 1 Horsepower is the unit of power equal to 745.7 watts or 33,000 foot-pounds per minute. Torque is the amount of pulling power at an RPM of an engine. The final key is RPM - the rotation per minute of an engine at 100% military.
The major problem I had was figuring out engine torque at what RPM setting. Torque gave the aircraft it's acceleration, climb rate, and top speed. If the torque is wrong, it throws everything out of wack: accelerate too fast or too slow, incorrect climb rates and the roll rate.
I often had to lower horsepower and add torque. Point in case was the A6M5 Zero a friend and I made from an Fw190. I had my friend (a 3D model expert) work on the body while I worked on the physics. I adjusted the weight to that of a Zero (4,136lbs empty). Corrected the fuel tank size and it's weight properties. Then I reduced horsepower to a true-life Zero (1130hp) at 2800 RPM's. Problem was that it's top speed was too fast and it's acceleration too slow coupled with a slow climb rate.
Since HP = TorquexRPM / 5252
1130hp = Torque X 2800rpm /5252 = ~2100
If I lowered horsepower, it should fly slower. If I increased torque, it should increase acceleration. I also knew that historically the Zeke was a slow (350 top speed at 20'000ft) but nimble plane. It accelerated quickly at slower speed to about 300mph where it took time to reach it's max acceleration at altitude.
Setting engine horsepower to 1030 and the torque to 2100lbs-ft the aircraft never reached top speed at altitude. After juggling the numbers for a while (2300lb-ft of torque at 1000hp), it accelerated properly, reaching top speed in 4 minutes at altitude, and an initial climb rate of 3400fpm. Roll rate was close enough (+-5%) and it was as nimble as you would expect from a Zeke.
The problem in designing aircraft was related to the virtual environment. It's not real - it's simulated. As a result, I had to adjust numbers to reflect the environment my model is flying in.
Based on what everyone is talking about here, it seems in AH the engine torque for the 152 is off by a few hundred pounds.
I hope this helps explains what needs to be fixed. I am not sure what kind of environment model HTC uses but I'm guessing it's like SDOE's.
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Thank you Mister Fork.
Your decription on balancing the hp and the torque explains a lot!
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Yes Thank you Mister Fork! Nice info for sure :)
One thing though... this... Seriously, Wilbus and Heinkelv - why don't both of you sent to Dale or Doug what is wrong and how they should fix it?
Upsets me some. I have, since the TA152 got out posted evidence, charts, combat reports, test pilot reports, RLM reports etc all over this Board, in both the aircraft and general forum. I have sent Pyro a personal E-mail and what have I recieved back? Nothing, zip, zero, squat, jack S***.
Search the forums for the Ta152 and you'll see what proof and charts I have posted. The Ta152 is my favorite plane, I've studied it quite a bit and I don't go out and whine about it without proof.
What you said, about me sending Pyro/Hitech some proof of it, I have been told numerous of times. And I have done it numerous of times, just ask the guys that have been around as long as I have.
I am getting tired of being told "send it to HTC" etc, they obviously don't care, and yet I keep trying, for what use I don't know but I'll keep trying.
No offence ment to you Mister Fork, haven't seen you much on this board but for what I've read you seem to be a nice guy, and your last post confirms this. Please though, don't tell me to send it to HTC, that goes for everybody on the board and in AH.
Mister Fork, I hope your post might help HTC fix it if they care, which I now a days doubt they do. :)
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I'm not sure if they are taking this posting seriously. Maybe if we all sign an online petition they would take a look at it?
Guess you could call it "The boy who cried Wolf" syndrome.
But seeing how they operate, they may consider 152 a back-burner while they work on other important issues, like bringing the STUKA to HTC.
BTW Wilbus, I've been playing AH since Beta 1.0. :D
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My appologise Mister Fork, 55 post made me think you were new, and I haven't seen you're name online for what I can remember now.
What is your online name?
Ps. how can the NOT take posting and proof, charts and data from several different persons serious? That's as bad as just ignoring it.
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who wants to go dig up the long thread about the d9 being badly porked. with evedence including detailed report on what was wrong by a reference by some dude named Kurt Tank. and hitech asking what a basic proformance term was. that was a hoot.
face it every german plane in this "game" has been under modeled who knows why. and has a thread with good evedence on what is wrong they just ignor it . play or dont is their attitude what can you do? nothing. they aint interested chearleaders will lable you a whiner and then another flame fest.
had luftwaff ever won any historic frame in this game at all ?
not that im aware of. deck is just stacked.
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LW has won quite some hitoric setups, I've been in many of them my self. But it's often a matter of pilot quality and good tactics rather then good planes.
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Sheesh...... :rolleyes:
Have you ever considered that maybe its the way you are asking for these things? A lot of the LW contingent in this game seem to adopt the attitude that they are always picked on and never have their planes modelled correctly. This attitude is rediculous in my opinion.
I dont claim to know what data HTC uses to model planes by. I would assume that they are modelled according to official test data rather than propaganda data published by some country who was trying to make their stuff look better.
I know that every time I read one of these threads and see stuff like this:
I am getting tired of being told "send it to HTC" etc, they obviously don't care, and yet I keep trying, for what use I don't know but I'll keep trying.
It gives me the image of a little kid crying just to see if he gets any attention even though he has nothing to cry about.
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All data could be considered "propaganda". Germany's data could be inflated to make it look like a better and more faster plane, but who is to say the US/Aliied countrys data is 100% correct? For propaganda reasons US/Allied contrys could make the data worse than it really is.
If I saw data on a German plane from US, Germany, and a Nuetral country, I would take the data from the nuetral country the most seriously.
And I really dont believe the Germans inflated their data. All their aircraft data was mostly kept to them. It wasn't like they were running around Russia, saying they have a plane that can go 471 MPH. When all you can fool is yourself? why would you do it?
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Sling, you obviously have not clue WHAT SO EVER what we are talking about, nor have you read any threads in the past about any kind of these things.
When I am told, 20 times, to send the info to HT, when I already have sent it and posted it 20 times, it gets quite tiredsome to hear someone who knows nothing tell me "Send the data to HTC and I am sure they'll fix it".
Might not want to speak so fast next time without knowing all the facts.
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Actually Wilbus I have read alot of these threads....over and over and over.
All I am saying is that maybe you should re-think about the way you ask for things. I know if it was me making the decisions about how to model aircraft or which ones might be wrong and how to fix them, I certainly wouldnt put much stock in the complaints that always come in with the same "woe is me" tone to them. It almost sounds like you are trying to make a martyr of yourself.
Try presenting them in a clear, concise, non-confrontational way instead of putting disclaimers in them like this: "they obviously don't care, and yet I keep trying, for what use I don't know but I'll keep trying." It only weakens your position and makes the powers that be want to help you less.
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After about 20 threads of clear evidence, posted in a nice and gentle way, asking for it to be fixed, asking in a nice way, and nothing happens, not even an answer, one gets a bit anoyed. And I do think they don't care. I used to think they did care but not anymore. This is the first time I've said it so where ya get "all this" I don't know.
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Sure....just like your initial post and title of this thread was gentle and nice, eh? :rolleyes:
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Alright alright. Before we start slinging mud, I have a plan.
These guys are soo busy on larger issues (such as creating better maps and updaes), I'd be more than willing to fix the planes myself. But I don't work for HTC and I'm sure they wouldn't let me within 10 feet of their code.
A couple of things need to be done. As a LW pilot experiencing the same pains, I think we need to be more diplomatic.
Perhaps a bribe is in order like the one that got the P-38 fixed? I'm thinking Yankee and Ronnie need a day spa, and Dale -n-Doug, need a nice bottle of scotch. I hate to think that we need to bride the staff to get stuff done, but the way we complain about it doesn't get them interested in fixing it.
Ps. Wilbus - my handle used to be Vruth.
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Rgr, remeber hearing that Handle I believe :)
Sling, no, this post wasn't gentle but it is the thruth. Like I said, have done enough nice and gentle posts.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Sling, no, this post wasn't gentle but it is the thruth. Like I said, have done enough nice and gentle posts.
I suggest you start insulting Pyro, maybe that will make him change it.
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Originally posted by Heinkel
All data could be considered "propaganda". Germany's data could be inflated to make it look like a better and more faster plane[...]
And I really dont believe the Germans inflated their data. All their aircraft data was mostly kept to them. It wasn't like they were running around Russia, saying they have a plane that can go 471 MPH. When all you can fool is yourself? why would you do it?
Inflated data from the manufacturers - I can believe that (there WAS money to be earned by producing war supplies). Inflated data from the RLM - seems highly unlikely.
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Wilbus, dont forget:
Don't lose a single second of your time to Montezuma.
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He's on my ignore list Mando, don't worry :)
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:)