Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: airman on July 24, 1999, 03:29:00 AM
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just wondering what the payment options would be for this.
i personally would like it to be boxed and sold with unlimited hours.
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LOL. I'd like to see it given away free, but that's not going to happen, either (http://beta.hitechcreations.com/ubb/wink.gif)
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Topcat
249 Squadron RAF "Gold Coast"
With Fists and Heels
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Just a hunch, but I know HT and Pyro have always believed strongly in the premium pricing for premium product model. To launch, and develop into the future, a sim so demanding of effort and resource, the costs will be high, and the audience rather niche, so hourly pricing is really the only model that makes sense. I'm betting you'll see something close to the $2.00 per hour model...
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eadg, ready to come out of retirement....
[This message has been edited by eadg (edited 07-24-1999).]
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with the sucesses of games like Ultima Online and Everquest i cant see no reason why a flat rate can be applied.
Ultima Online = $10 per month unlimited play
Everquest = $10 per month unlimited play
Everquest is a 3d only game and this is how i see Aces High....if a Flat rate is applied
i beleive they will get there rewards from players coming from Warbirds to Aces High
though i dont mind paying a flat rate of something like $100 a month for unlimited play
ok Ultima has like 100,000 players before Everquest came along but think about it
100.000 x $10 per customer = $1,000,000 per month
so something like a Aces high population
maybe something like
2000 x (lets say $100 flat rate) = $200,000 per month
so even if a flat rate is applied there still making money to support themselves the company and the cost to produce a game like this
i hope Hitech sees this as an option at least
Belgar
Member of 249 RAF [Tangmere Wing]
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I agree that a flat rate plan is the better way to go. People like things "Unlimited". Most Internet Service Providers in the old days used to charge by the hour, but when they incorporated unlimited usage, they gained a whole flock of new users. If Aces High lives up to its name, you can expect people from Air Warrior as well as Warbirds to be converted; if the price is right - as in a reasonable flat rate
GXU
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Will everyone stop reminding them to think about charging?
In Two Months(tm) we should be able to moan about enough things or invent enough non-existent bugs that they chase their own tails while we fly free until at least the 21st Century (http://beta.hitechcreations.com/ubb/smile.gif)
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Glars
glarsmaps.warbirds.org
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ROFL glars (http://beta.hitechcreations.com/ubb/biggrin.gif)
You kill me... hehehehehe
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Jafo
Commanding Officer
Night Stalkers
1st Tactical Battle Group
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Itmo,s freehost keeps trying to excape from its box. Peices of how to run it keep popping up here and there. It is inevitable that this info will come to light even for us non computer nerds. If you dont think this will impact this game your niave. AH would have to be wildly seperior to comepeat with free. A resonable flat rate would expand the gap enough to make this game viable.IMO.
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You will never see the same number of players flying a WWII sim as you will see in a game like EQ. There are very few of us and a lot of them in the world.
Until there are 100,000 people ready to sign up for an Aviation Sim there will be no Flat Rate pricing IMHO.
val
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Scott (val) Valline
Dweebs of Death
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Sorry Val, but I gotta disagree.
If Fighter Ace and Airwarrior can do flat rate pricing, Aces High (and Warbirds for that matter)could do flat rate pricing.
I can also point out Ultima Online, Everquest, and M59 as successful models of the flat rate plan. Yes these games have many more players online (and subscribed)at any one time. But the cost of running the game per subscriber, is fairly consistent past a certain breakpoint.
And please lets leave the FW and AW sucks so its not a competition arguement out of it. The cost of running any online multiplayer sim, ie cost/player, should be similar (cost of server and bandwidth) between all these games.
To my knowledge, Warbirds is the only game left on the internet that charges a $/hour pricing structure. And have you noticed how the numbers of players are dropping off in WB's lately?
Its just not worth it to most people in today's market. Worth it to a few of us maybe, but just not to a significant portion of the flight sim market.
Flame away... but $/hr is a very small marketplace and it seems the WWII flight sim pie is getting cut into smaller and smaller portions.
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Vermillion **MOL**
"Shooting is NEVER too good for my enemys" --Evil Overlord
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Vermillion: people are not leaving WB because of the 2$/h.They leave (or are thinking of..) because they feel they might not get what they are paying for.
May I remind you that for a lot of the non-US costumers the real price are in the 3-5$/h range.
People will pay the price *if* the product is good.I certanly will.
danish
[This message has been edited by danish (edited 07-24-1999).]
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VERMILLION:
FA has all the money of Bill Gates and MS behind it. We all know that MS can afford to lose a hell of a lot more money than any other developer.
AW is VERY outdated. It sees very little developement, unless the AW community themselves do it.
You can't even put those two sims in the same league as WBs and the future AH. WBs and AH are built upon the promise of constant development. If you want to add things to a game you need to pay artists and designers.
It takes Toyota only 15 minutes longer to assemble a Camry than a Lexus LS400. Yet in America the Lexus costs 3X as much. Why? Because of the materials and the features it has are far above those found in the Camry. If you want the best you have to be willing to pay the price of admission.
val
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Scott (val) Valline
Dweebs of Death
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Oh I agree Danish, they're leaving because they are paying a very premium price (compared to other games out there), and getting a non premium product, good , but not "premium".
And I do know that non-US customers are paying in the $3-$5/hr range, quite a few of my squadmates are from outside the US. I feel for you guys.
And yes I agree that the statement People will pay the price *if* the product is good. True.
But it comes down to how many people are willing to pay such a price.
I would guess not enough, considering how much money ICI/IMOL/iEN has lost over the years.
So now you basically have the same player base as before (small group willing to pay $/hr) and now your splitting it two ways. That is assuming HT and Pyro go with $/hr.
Can both or either survive ? I hope but I wonder.
IMO, the reality of survival of either game versus the corprate giants of Microsoft (FA) and NewsCorp (AW), lies in a flat rate and a large number of Relaxed Realism pilots.
Don't get me wrong, you can still keep the high fidelity, ultra realistic game as we love it. But the dollars to keep games of these types, going and fuel future developement, will most likely come from the "unwashed masses" or dweebs as most of us typically call them.
And Val, yes AW is very outdated, but thats because it was already old, and WB's started from a clean slate giving it that advantage that we talk about today. But since WB's came out of beta, AW and WB's have produced a similar number of updates, new planes, and additional features.
Just my opinon, and I know its not popular with this crowd.
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Vermillion **MOL**
"Shooting is NEVER too good for my enemys" --Evil Overlord
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 07-24-1999).]
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I left that other game recently because I thought they were no longer delivering the standard of service required for the amount they were charging. (I played since
the CK beta, stopped quite recently)
I would be quite happy to pay for a "boxed"
all in one WW2 sim that provided offline play, multiplayer and massive multiplayer.
I would be happy to pay for updated releases as long as the updates were significant and not too frequent.
I would be happy to pay for use of the massive multiplayer server.
I would be satisfied with $20 a month unlimited time.
Could AH turn a profit with this model?
I don't know.
Hippie
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I am sure they will charge whatever they see fit. I mean there is a lot more into putting a game up then just the programming hours.
At first there will be support ( for any of the question that you all maybe exper.), then there is the art, the T1, the host.. and this list could go on forever..
Basically, you will get what you pay for..
and what do you really want? That is the question you have to ask yourself.
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"may trouble neglect you"
moon out..
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I heard a couple of homilies once:
"Just about the time I got that damn mule weaned off hay, he up and died on me.."
and
"You pay more money and you get a better seat.."
I design, code and support software for a living. The overhead of a twenty-four hour a day, seven day a week operation of this type will be a lot more than most of you imagine. It will take a steady revenue stream to support that, let alone recoup the development costs!
These guys (Hitech, Pyro, etal) are undoubtedly good wonderful dudes, but let's face it! I doubt that they are entirely in this for the love and adoration of WWII flight sim enthusiasts! I'll wager they want to make some MONEY some day!
So, if you guys are like me and you don't feel complete unless you've logged 20 or 30 hours in the virtual cockpit every week then you'd better get ready to pay the piper!
I, for one, am more than willing to do it.
P.S. Sorry about the mixed metaphors...
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foggia
XO
457th Bomb Group (http://www.nehp.net/rcaryljr)
[This message has been edited by foggia (edited 07-24-1999).]
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Val is right,
And another thing to consider is the type of players you get with flat rate pricing. Daddy won't foot a $100 per month bill. That leaves the serious sim fanatics you love to fly with and against. $2 per hour is just about right.
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Cya up...Brazos
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Just get me a good conx, a game as good as 2.5 with closer range gunnery and I'll pay the usual (http://beta.hitechcreations.com/ubb/smile.gif)
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Also, let's not forget that RPG type games and a high fiedlity flight sim are two very different things. An RPG just has to keep track of where you are, do some hit modifications based on random #'s, and pop up text indicating results. It doesn't really have to track continuing motion in 3 dimensions. EQ doesn't have bad lag, oz would say, but would rather not have to try and shoot at the creatures as they lag back and forth -- minor of course, but in a lfight sim that would be intolerable. And another thing, those type of boxed sims make money from selling millions of copies, advertising revenue, and the like, whereas this type of flight sim is much more of a smaller, niche market.
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Please help Oz find his sig, he lost it!
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We are not yet ready to state what our pricing structure will be. We realize that this is an inconvenience to everyone and apologize for that. The reason we wish to hold off on this is because we have a long way to go before we can start charging. A lot of things can change in the market and in our business during that time. We feel that it would be better to delay an announcement on this issue than to possibly have to change it later.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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I have read the posts on this message board and have a few comments. First a lot of you gentlemen are snobs. I guess you would say I am from the unwashed crowd because I play Airwarrior3 for the flat rate plan they have. That does not mean that I may not be a good pilot online just that I can ill afford $2.00 and hour to play a game. Keep a game priced out of reach of the majority and you will end up with a sub standard game with few players and minimal profits. But you will have your “elite” community but it will not grow or expand and will be doomed to die. I followed CK for 4 years hoping it would be the next game but alas it died before it ever got off the ground. With the problems now introduced in Airwarrior with the new arenas they have just posted with 3.12 players are looking to move in masses. The new airfields are so far apart you must spend 30-45 min. just looking for a fight. Imagine that at $2.00 an hour. So if they plan on making this a flat rate game the “elite” had better watch their 6 it would be very embarrassing to be smoked by one of the low life crowd. Some of us are not that bad just poor by your standards.
Reb28, Gpkr I/JG 52
JG 52 Zweite
[This message has been edited by Rebel28 (edited 07-26-1999).]
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Interesting post reb.
This elite snob bashing seems kind of self insulting when one considers that there are common snobs as well as elite snobs (BTW, which variety are you?).
For what its worth, most everyone I know in Warbirds are of the common snob variety.
We are perfectly suited to be snobs and such in AW but prefer a better sim.
Dont you agree?
Post Script: The use of the word *snob* when describing people I know in Warbirds is used only for the puropse of "illustrating my point" in this re-post to reb! I honestly do not see any elitism or snobbery in the great crowd of people I have come to know and appreciate online in Warbirds.
Every single person I have exchanged banter with have been stand up folks whom Im proud to sim with.
Kevin -Yeager- Hall
[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 07-26-1999).]
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AW3 and Ultima Online are poster children for why AH *should* carry an hourly rate. AW3 (which I've played) is an inferior sim by just about any reasonable standard, and I doubt FA (which I haven't played) is any better. As for UO, does anyone know whether it still carries the infamous warnings in the intro screens?
A flat-rate species of the Air Combat Arena might help ( to Vermillion for making the point) if it drew enough players to pay most of the freight, leaving us hard-core, high frustration tolerance types to pay a low/reasonable hourly rate for full realism and a state-of-the-art FM. :-) Where those breakpoints are is anyone's guess. On the one hand, a small company should have less overhead than a large one, unless Hitech, Pyro and the others decide that they deserve multiple P-51s as much as the id guys deserve multiple Ferraris. :-) On the other hand, price makes the market and vice versa.
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I guess being a realist is to be a snob, eh Reb?
I won't bash AW or it's pilots. There is no reason to start a pissing match. I don't give a rats arse who has the better pilots. In the end it is just a game.
To date WBs has exceeded AW in flight model fidelity as well as damage model granularity. There is nothing 'sub standard' about WBs. It seems to me that you would rather play WBs over AW, but are forced to fly AW due to financial limitations.
You can't deny that AW has stagnated. The main reason is that they do not generate enough money to support full time development.
I am not made of money, and I have spent money I didn't have to get a WBs fix. I don't regret a single penny spent! I have recieved full value for every dollar.
I resent the fact that you consider me a snob, because I am willing to pay and support a premium game.
val
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Scott (val) Valline
Dweebs of Death
[This message has been edited by val (edited 07-26-1999).]
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As someone familiar with UO, you don't want AH to have a similar pricing plan, unless you want a lot of idiots sharing your online experience. Call me a snob or whatever *shrugs* but there are a lot of idiots out there that enjoy purposefully ruining the game experience of others, and their online presence seems inversely proportional to cost.
Not all those who can't afford hourly pricing are idiots, and not all those who can afford hourly pricing aren't idiots, but generally speaking, the more something costs a person the more responsible they are about it.
If you disagree, give UO a try for a month, then see what you think. In UO, that killa person wouldn't stand out from the crowd. In UO people who treat each other with couresy and consideration are the ones who stand out.
No offense to anyone intended, except the idiots, of course (http://beta.hitechcreations.com/ubb/wink.gif)
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ok...we got 2 guys who play warbirds one holds a credit card and the other is on a payment plan of flat rate....both will play
25 hours a week on the game at $1.99 per hour
if i say the flat rate is at $100 (£60) per month the company is already licking the shoes of the guy with the credit card as in a month hes gone about $99 over the flat rate price
ok fare point...but the problem with credit cards is that the payment fluctuate up and down so one month he may play alot less than the month before or not play at all and that income for the company is also going to be less but if a flat rate is applied then it is of a consistant rate and the income is at a steady flow with no fluctuation (only if a customer leaves and cancels account) and with how many pliots do we have i heard roughly 8000 though not all playing at the same time of course so with a steady income of $100 per month x 8000 or whatever the exact figure is EVENTUALLY going to go alot higher than the income of the guy or guys and girls that pay with a credit card,
The customer count is dropping on warbirds...slowly but its declining
so if Warbirds or Aces High want to have a consistant or a increased customer based product then a flat rate will or does need to be applied....i have no problem paying a hourly rate its just not going to be like this for much longer....and with probably Warbirds being the only Pay as you go game on the net at the moment it is set to doom is i say about 2yrs max....im thinking ahead and being realistic...IMOL/IEN are not but which path is Hitech Creations going to go...we have to wait and see
Belgar
Member of 249 RAF [Tangmere Wing]
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I really don't understand al the debate over pricing and never have. Everybody wants to have their cake and eat it too. I know I do but we all know it won't happen. You can debate how this other game does this or that but when it comes right down to it; it doesn't mean a damn thing. The game isn't even out yet and people who may never even play it are debating over price. I'll let you in on a little secret. They'll charge what they think they can based on what they want/need inspite of any debate going on here.
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Well, as one of those who flies both AW and Warbirds I can see it from both sides.
We are snobbish in Warbirds. I compare it to drivers of Cadillacs verses drivers of Chevrolets. Both are similar and get you where you want to go but some of us will pay a little more to get the fancier car.
I am all for a flat rate, to a point. I kinda like IMOL's different price plans with a little revision (10 bucks for 10 hours, 20 for 23, 50 for 75) or something like that. In all hosesty, If I tried to pass a hundred dollar bill past the wife I would walk funny for a month (it would take that long to pass the joystick out my butt).
If you spend more than 75 hours a month on a game, maybe you should go look for a girl anyway:-).
Wlink
332nd Flying Mongrels
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If your going to adopt a pay per hour pricing structure for AH in the same way as WB then fine... I bet you'll have alot of Warbirds guys turn up who don't have Mac guys in their squads. I'm quite prepared to pay hourly. However there are a few points to consider :-
1. The WB pricing plan is a bit strange. Until just last week you payed $29.95 for 20 hours which equated to $1.50 an hour roughly and when you went over 20 hours you then got hammered at $2 an hour... which is fine for a few months but people wise up pretty quickly and realise they shouldn't play past the 20 hour mark. It just doesn't encourage you to play. iMOL have just changed this and people now pay $1.50 past the 20 hour barrier if they are on the premium plan.
2. If your going to employ an hourly charge plan then PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE make it a stepped rate plan... so the more you play the cheaper it gets and the more you are encouraged to play.
3. If you intend to capture WB and AW pilots and try to put the people that run AW/WB out of business then you need to be very competitive... HTC appears to have the lean infrastructure to do this but you need a competitive pricing plan to achieve this and keep your customers. A flat rate pricing plan at say $19.95 or $29.95 "all you can eat" may appeal to AW pilots who would then have access to a high fidelity premium sim and would also appeal greatly to the WB crowd who have been screaming for flat rate pricing for aslong as I can remember. This is of course if you guys can afford it and keep afloat at the same time and pay for all that pizza you must be consuming (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Regards
Daren
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Beaz
249 Squadron RAF "Gold Coast"
"With Fists and Heels"
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I totally disagree with flat rate pricing. You put it to $10.00 a month and every Quake Dweeb will bring the child like antics to a
sim that we want a good community in. We have this in WB except for a few,(Very few) people who can spoil the whole game for the rest.
Keep it close to WB pricing & the community as a whole will do well,remember..This is more than just a sim. It is a community.
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** Death From Behind **
Wardog 32nd Panthers
--wd--
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I always thought a progressive plan that basically amounted to flat rate over a certain number of hours would be best. Pay $10 /month to get and keep the account, pay $2 for the first 5 hours (covered by the first $10), $1.5 for the next 10 hours, $1 for the next 20 hours, $.5 for the next 40 and ‘free’ after a total of 75 hours if anyone ever play that much. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Numbers are only examples of course, but you get the idea.. if you play for more then $65 it would be the same as $65 flat rate.
-Jinx
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Well I'm gonna wade in here and post my two cents. I am an avid flite sim enthusiast...translated as, I really like flyin and dien in as realistic a manner as possible. I am always looking for a better sim that will not kill my $ resources. I have a family and cannot afford to pay $2.00 per hour to fly as often as I like to fly. Hell, I started that when AW was hourly and ran up bills I couldn't justify to my wife (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I am for a flat rate that is reasonable, one that would be fair to the developers and also serve to attract more customers just like me; there are a lot of us out there. When last I checked, more customers means more revenue.
I for one am hopeful this is a venture which will last and supplant both AW and WB. Both worthy and venerable predecessors to this new AH sim.
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I have played both AW and WB for sometime. Granted I did things a little backwards by starting out with WB. I did eventually cancel my WB account in favour of AW. This decision did involve the greater cost of WB but only indirectly.
It is my OPINION that the pressure of being on the clock in a pay as you play scenario negatively affects the games community overall. Instead of keeping one eye my six and the other on the clock in order to squeeze out the maximum bang for my buck, AW gives me time to breath and invest in the community aspect of the game. Taking a newbie up for a tour is something that I now enjoy doing and is almost always a two way learning experience. I can’t remember anyone having that kind of time for me in WB
I’m not saying that I wouldn’t pay more for a better game, but I will never jump in to the pay as u play pressure cooker again.
My two cents, keep the change.
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Hip
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Hip,
To be honest the pay per hour scheme never affected our unit. We would spend at least a 1/2 hour after our squad nite talking about stuff while in the tower! Personally, I never felt a real squeeze to hurry up with something just because that next hour was going to rack up another $2.00. And let me point out that I've only recently started making a good amount of money which happened after I left WB. Also, 3 of our pilots are Russian, one living in St.Petersburg, the other two in distant Kazakhstan!
Why I left WB was because the price I was paying for was not worth the product. I know HiTech & Pyro's track record, and I'll be ready to dish out the bills per hour when they get going with AH. Nothing beats quality products in the long haul.
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I'd personally love to see a flat rate. Some incentive to come over from WB would be nice, and I think a competitive price would be the best of all.
-0z-
<SPECTRE>
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How about everyone gets to fly for free, just get ads to pay for it all??
You know, Yahoo could buy the P38L wings, put a big "Yahoo!" across them(didn't I see a picture of this option already?). Kellog pays extra for the B-17: Corn Flakes across the top, Rice Krispies on the sides.
Well it was a thought.
;-);-);-)
Bad Omen
The Royal Knights
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I remember all this "keep the riff raff out" nonsense from the opening days of the ACA.
What can these quake dweebs do to you. Ack star in a b25, force a collision, Say dumb things on the radio buffer..... Gee wait thats already happening. It could be that its the guys who CAN afford the $2 per that are the quake birds.
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I may well be wrong on this, but I think that paying, even less then $2, per hour to play will mean that most have to show a level of commitment to feel that it is worth while. There will always be the few exceptions who think that just messing with the serious players is well worth $2 an hour of course. The other problem with flat rate is that there is no way to ‘force’ anyone to stop using server resources when not being active, why bother logging of just because you have to eat dinner..? The Arena risk getting turned in to a chat room with the possibility to fly.
I think paying per hour is a Good Thing but that a progressive rate would work well, see my post above.
-Jinx
[This message has been edited by Jinx (edited 08-02-1999).]
[This message has been edited by Jinx (edited 08-02-1999).]
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Holy Geez....please don't get that other guy confused with me!
Y'all know I'm a Realist!
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-Rebel 487th Lil' Bastards
"You love a lot of things if you live around them, but there isn't any woman and there isn't any horse, nor any before nor any after, that is as lovely as a great airplane, and men who love them are faithful to them even though they leave them for others. Man has one virginity to lose in fighters, and if it is a lovely airplane he loses it to, there is where his heart will forever be."
--Ernest Hemingway
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A flat rate please.
I have had a big moral delema with WarBirds in the past, (do I fly this weekend or eat?), I would be more inclined to pay a flat fee at the begining of the month, rather than saying- "oh I think I'll keep my bill down this tour".
I fly online because I usually have fun, but not if I'm stressed out about money. Folks in my squad have had to quit for periods of time due to lack of money and thats really a shame. This is where you come to forget your daily problems and have fun.
I feel a flat rate would keep coustomers loyal-----hell, that's why I want out of WarBirds so bad!
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Dobbs-
1ST Leiutenant
22ND F/B GROUP
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I see people posting on AGW who claim to spend $100, $200, and more a month on WB.
I have a WB Plantinum account. And I have to work overtime to keep it.
I wonder about the folks that can afford to pay that much to fly, and wish I was one of them.
It is pretty obvious to me that the more time you spend online, the better your ability becomes.
I can't afford $100 a month for unlimited.
I can't afford $50 a month for Unlimited.
I could do $30 A month for unlimited, but its tight.
I do want the company that makes the best, most realistic WWII Technology Aircraft Sim to stay and bussiness and prosper, and add Arenas and Scenarios, and Aircraft and IMPROVE and Everything.
I am willing to pay what I can afford for a good product. Price it out of my range, and I will have to suffer with the best that I can afford.
Now, Pyro said that they aren't posting their price structure yet, so I don't have a clue what it will be.
I Know that $2.00 an hour is to much to pay to disco in a bomber.
$2.00 an hour is too much to be a dar operator.
Here is a basic Idea that I have proposed on AGW and the iEN/iMOL newsgroup.
This is no means a Fixed and Firm Idea, just a basic suggestion to build on.
For say $15.00 per month 10 Hours
For Say $20.00 per month 15 Hours.
For $25.00 per month 20 Hours.
For $30.00 per month 25 Hours.
If you Pay $15, its $2.00 for every hour over.
If you pay $20, its $1.75 for every hour over
If you pay $25, its $1.50 for every hour over
If you pay $30, Its $1.00 for every hour over.
$.50 to be a DAR operator or Fly the Heavy Buffs. I hate to start climbing to alt in my Buff and Disco before I reach the target. Depending on Where I'm going I just wasted some money with no results.
This would encourage people to do DAR, and Fly the BUFFS which are important to strategy.
Now another thing you could do with BUFFS is allow an AIRSTART away from everyone at SAY 20K Ft alt. then you wouldn't waste the time climbing, but gives no one a chance to shoot you down while you climb, and I don't think anyone would go for that.
What does this do, It encourages people to pay more upfront because they get a reward (less cost if you go over your time limit.)
The people who sign up are encouraged to go over their time because it doesn't dig as deep into their wallets if they do.
Hitech gets more money up front because it is better to by the best package.
People will fly more cause it doesn't hurt as bad, and Hitech gets more money.
People who don't have the time to fly, can get a cheaper package, and not get gouged to deeply.
Everybody is HAPPY!!!
And people who want to fly $200 a month can still do it!!!
Of course this is based on WB, but its the model I have to work from.
As I said this is a basic Idea, and can be improved upon.
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"I could feel the 20MM Cannon impacting behind me so I made myself small behind the pilot armor" Charlie Bond AVG
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I see your point and can identify with your circumstances but, I would rather see a flat rate which everyone can live with; especially the developers! I propose a $29.95 per month flat rate, and if that works for everyone I would be glad (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I have seen concerns posted here about kids and resource wastage, IMO, these are concerns that will always be around. The kid issue is a bit discriminatory as unless there are age restrictions, anyone ought to be able to fly. As it will not be a game like quake, and require a steep learning curve, the "kids" will not wanna stick around.
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I think strider and downtown make a very good point, you cant expect loyal, long term flyers at a site unless you provide the right atmosphere. There is definately a large market out there for a full featured sim with the pilots in mind. I would argue there is none at this point that considers longevity of members over price that keeps up with technology. Janes World at War site promises this but again pricing is still vague. I have been a member of Warbirds four times now and just quit again over the outrageous cost of enjoying yourself for a few evennings a week. I think we all feal we are ripped off when we are paying more for flying than putting gas in our cars every month! I dont care how much money you make its using people. Pay 12 dollars a month and watch movies till your eyes fall out on the movie channel, thats reasonable and loyalty building pricing.
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Skypi, I can see where you're coming from and sympathize with your position, but there's one flaw in the Movie Channel analogy. It doesn't make any direct difference to the Movie Channel after you pony up your fee whether you're watching the channel or not. They use the same resources to broadcast to one user or one hundred million. On the Net, each connected user adds to the resource burden imposed by the content/service provider and increases the provider's costs of doing business.
Now the more users you have, the smaller the incremental added cost for each user (and user 102 costs less than user 101, who in turn costs less than user 100). However, there is still a cost to the vendor, however small, for each connected user. This makes it more difficult to achieve profitability with a flat rate model, absent another revenue stream (such as advertising).
Price does make the market, but I just don't know that a highly realistic (thus high-learning-curve) WWII flight sim can expect to achieve the critical mass needed to be consistently profitable with flat-rate pricing. Getting good at flying a WWII aircraft in RM is hard work, which will turn off a percentage of this instant-gratification culture in which we live. Then too, there is still (though fading) stigma associated with spending a lot of time playing computer games, which further suggests it'll be a long time (if ever) before ACM simming becomes as popular as golf or bowling.
However, what might be a possible ancillary revenue stream is for HTC to pursue commerce partnerships with hardware manufacturers (system and component vendors, especially the types like Crossline, Adamant, et al, DSL vendors, companies like Guillemot and Hoffman wanting to build relationships with an international customer base, the guy building really hot stuff in his garage who can put up his own Web site but might not be able to afford e-commerce entry costs or otherwise attract traffic, etc.). They could sell the stuff through a link or a commerce site, and receive a smallish fee for each referred sale (Amazon does this with e-business partners, including the local classical music station here in Cleveland).
If I were a system vendor, I know I wouldn't mind taking a flyer on a "cockpit-in-a-box" geared to the hardcore simmer who might want an afforable high-performance option that would free up the "full-featured" PC in the den for use by the family, thus promoting domestic tranquility. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I'm thinking high-end Celeron or midrange PIII coupled with 2 USB ports, maybe 2-3 PCI slots for non-Winmodem, video, sound, no removable media drive *at all*, 17" or 19" monitor and low-end speakers (even the less expensive stuff sounds pretty good these days). If you could hammer the price low enough while preserving a sustainable margin, and bndle it with a range of flight control options (simple stick through full HOTAS) they'd sell like hotcakes, at least within a limited market segment.
Flathat
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I fly both AW and WB and I have to say that the flat pricing rate of AW has one big advantage over $/hr of WB. It allows you to take your time. It has been my experience in WB that most pilots are unwilling to wait around more than 5-10 min for a briefing or to get organized and this is understandable considering time is money. But in AW this is not the case you don't have the feeling of urgency to get right up into the fight. This allows for greater organization and in my opinion adds to the game in a way WB can never hope to achieve as long as they charging by the hour. I personally think for this reason WB is more of an instant action game were AW caters more to organized mission and squadrons and is why I fly solo in WB and with a squadron in AW. I hope AH takes this into account when they decide on a pricing plan because money can have a strong effect on the atmosphere of the game. It would really be a shame to see them come out with a great game and have it turn into another fighter duel just because no one could afford to take the time that is needed to organize large missions.
T2^
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I see your point flathead and I would agree that sponsors are the future. Look at the warbirds convention site, there must be ten or more major sponsors plus Im sure alot of kick backs from the advertisers.
I saw a post in another thread regarding Yahoo buying wing art on certin planes maybe thats too crazy or is it? Imaging an openning screen with multiple tag ons Thrustmaster, Microsoft, CH Products all offering specials to AH members, and kick backs on sales to AH. That would be a way to control the cost of flying and in a best case senerio it might even be free!
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Main Arena and events.
20-30$/month unlimited.
Hard-Core Realism Arena.
50cents / life. (If you land alive, you keep flying at no cost. ) (If you disco without being damaged you keep flying at no cost. )
(If you ditch alive you keep flying at
no cost.)
If you crash or are killed or pilot killed, your new plane and pilot is 50c again.
(Just like an arcade, you get to stay on
if you don't screw up. I think such an
arena could be at least attempted. Log the
kills and lives and then charge after the
game session is done. Most people die about
4-5 times an hour. (10 minutes climbout, a death. Another 10 min climbout and setup,
a kill then 5 minute rtb after a fight.)
Unless they are flying silly, ackstarring
or suicide field defense.
etc. (They'd make more money than 2$/hour
on a 50c per life plan =) And very few
would be able to make 50c last an hour. =)
But they would all spend 50-100$ trying
to become one of the few who can =)
Dekker
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"Hard-Core Realism Arena.
50cents / life."
This would give new meaning to, "alt monkey" and "runstang". (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
popeye
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I'd be against Yahoo! wing art or a swoosh lake, in spite of the potential savings. I want to sim WWII, not the Winston Cup. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) But that's just an expression of personal aesthetic preference, and my opinion is no more valid than anyone else's.
I've played AW and WB as well. I played AW three times in free Mac beta and trashed it, which should tell you everything you need to know regarding my *opinion* of AW (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). The problem with any comparison of AW and WB price models has to account for the "you get what you pay for" factor.
Flathat
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(For Skypi) I'd be against Yahoo! wing art or a swoosh lake, in spite of the potential savings. I want to sim WWII, not the Winston Cup. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) But that's just an expression of personal aesthetic preference, and my opinion is no more valid than anyone else's. I'm all for making the game affordable, though. If it turns out that flat rate will be a sustainable price model I hope to heck they go for it.
(For T2^) I've played AW and WB as well. I played AW three times in free Mac beta and trashed it, which should tell you everything you need to know regarding my *opinion* of AW (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). The problem with any comparison of AW and WB price models has to account for the "you get what you pay for" factor, although relative value is also a matter of opinion. As I said in the previous paragraph, I'd love a flat rate, hope we get one, but I ain't holding my breath. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
On the whole, I think Downtown's graduated pricing idea has a lot of potential. It's the best compromise that enables pay-as-you-go with strong incentives to go longer and pay more. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Flathat
[This message has been edited by Flathat (edited 08-05-1999).]
[This message has been edited by Flathat (edited 08-05-1999).]
[This message has been edited by Flathat (edited 08-05-1999).]
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Hehe,
alt-monkey has to come down to play.
And often they die when they can't maintain
their E correctly. =)
Sure they may fly around all day for 50c,
but it won't be any fun and they'll let
their guard down sometime. And doesn't
everyone want higher alt fights? This
would encourage that.
I've been at 30,000 feet, and there is no
one to kill there. You do much better at about 15,000 feet and maintain your alt
between 10 and 15. =) And you need the
experience to know when to bug out. =)
Dekker
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I think you're forgetting one VERY important thing gents.
As it is there is going to be at least 2 or 3 companies competing for the market and this community:
1. IGMK with WB ( assuming it stays afloat )
2. Playnet - with their sim
3. HT with AH.
Now let's see: They're products should be relatively comperable. I'm sure community will find faults in all of them, but you can bet your bellybutton that cheapest one will be the one where community will move.
This will be a price war between 3 and we will benefit.
Question is not "per hour" vs "flat rate", it's "flat rate" vs "free beta"
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(http://www.raf303.org/banner.gif)
Bartlomiej Rajewski
S/L fd-ski Sq. 303 (Polish) "Kosciuszko" RAF
www.raf303.org (http://www.raf303.org)
[This message has been edited by fd ski (edited 08-05-1999).]
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Dekker,
with your pay for a life plan you can garuntee that everyone will fly the "Hottest, Fastest plane out there.
This besides Alt monkeys and runstangs.
One big complaint in WB now is the preponderance of Spitfires. And there are a few there.
As the RPS rolled through what ever the best TnBr was would be snapped up by all the TnB guys, and Whatever the best BnZr was would be in the hands of the BnZ guys.
You would end up with basically P-51s, P-47s, 190s and Spits. You would rarely see a different plane.
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"I could feel the 20MM Cannon impacting behind me so I made myself small behind the pilot armor" Charlie Bond AVG
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I like Dekker's idea.
Also I'd like to imporove it a bit. If you killed some guy and iMOL/HTC/Playnet gets their cents, why dont they pay YOU for that kill 1/2 of their money ?! Probably they may ask you to pay for loaded fuel/ammo, plane maintenance and parking. And if you cant properly park your smoking wrecks on the runway - you must pay for that ! Certainly you never ever can afford ditching on the sheeps.
I'd sell this idea for 10% of the total income or free unlimited play... and may be AH alpha/beta :-)
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30 bucks a MONTH i CAN DO....but 100?!?! I too am a die hard flight sim fan..but I'm not rich. I guess we'll see what happens (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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333rd Red Dawgs
JG 5 Eismeer
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I think maybe you are forgetting something. HTC clearly stated that they wont grow to be large, they are not going to make an "online gaming empire". They are going to stay as small as possible and consentrate on only one thing; making AH the best online sim.
X-Plane, a superb "underground" - engineeringish kind of sim, cost 150 US$ or something, and then you get updates for life. This sim has been in development for years, and still is. 150 US$ is considerably more than any other sim.
I stopped playing WB partly because it was unplayable (on my machine) when 2.6 came, and partly because of the "grand plans" of Wild Bill. There is no way i am going to pay $2/h if 50% or something of that money is used in developing a "gaming empire". What use have i for a gaming empire when i only play flight sims?
I mean we should think a bit less about how *much* we are paying compared to what, and think a bit more about what we are actually paying *for*.
As far as i'm concerned $2/h is a fair price if i am reasonably sure that the money is used in my interrest. If that money is used for something totally unrelated, it simply means that i am being used as a "milking cow". With more online sims on the market, i think the costs will regulate themselves anyway, and we will get what we are paying for.
Bod
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Downtown:
They fly the best planes anyway, no matter
the price.
And if you want to fly the other planes,
go to the per hour arena, instead of the
hard core one.
Wouldn't it be nice to be a bomber pilot
at 50cents a plane? =) =) Wouldn't that
encourage high altitude, careful flying and
fighting. Careful landings,
(a actual initial!?),
proper escorting, (2:1 to the bombers)
proper attack profiles, (10ocl,2ocl attack
instead of dead 6 to a bomber, and spending
20 minutes to get into position first)
The only issue I see if if you get hit,
then you disconnect on the way home.
But that would be a rarity and I'd take a few
of those for a better combat atmosphere.
Wouldn't you like to cost your enemy 50c
when you shoot him down? =)
If that's too hardcore, pilots can go back
to the per hour and unlimited arenas,
why not? =)
Dekker
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Dekker: love the idea.
Of course, to stop the flow of the spits, one could charge different amounts for different aircraft. If the Me-262, Fw-190D, And other uber-planes cost $1.50 per life, I highly doubt we'd see many dweebs a flyin in them. The best thing about such a structure would be that HTC could encourage an arena to fly witht he correct planeset. Much better than simply limiting fields (because this way they could control the ratios of aircraft...sorta).
-blk-- <JG5>
PS-I'm not sure why I posted this, since it's all speculative and a dream right now...
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Cost-per-life is certainly a different concept, and there might be something to it. I'm completely against the idea of giving a kickback per kill, though...you think vulching is a problem in online sims now, wait till it can be done for a living.
Flathat
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You go to the Market, you set up your booth and you charge what the traffic will bear. It's not that complicated...
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Otto CO 111th Fighter Group ziggy2@home.com
111th Fighter Group www.cris.com/~ziggy2/ (http://www.cris.com/~ziggy2/)
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I believe the AH boys know the $numbers from WB as they were the creators, and having said that I also believe they know the average $ per customer, with that in mind I would like to know how close is it to a $35.00 a month it is since thats what I average now only becuase I will not spend more noway nohow not ever (wife say's) and so it is done.
now here is a Q for Pyro and Crew how small or how big do you want to be BIg as in # of players and low revenue ? or Big in $$$ and small in Players. for example $35.00 per player per month say at 1750 total players ( a number I saw from another post) = $61,250.00 per month in revenue.... I f I ran a business with more then just me and 5 people..I would like a little more $$$ per month. but... it's not my company and maybe they would be happy with it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
A simple yes or no would do
Guns out.
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AW is worse than WB, in terms of the game itself, most AW players will readily admit that. If AH is as good or better than warbirds and has a reasonable flat rate it will attract players from WB because it is cheaper and attract players from AW because it is better but not out of their price range. As a result you will get full areas and/or more arenas which will become a selling point of the game itself.
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Hey this hourly crap stinks. If I were a millionaire no problem but since I'm not how about a monthly rate like say $10.00 ;>
If this game is all it seems to be from the page then alot will be drawn away from WARBIRDS and AIRWARRIOR. Put your money where your Oxygen mask should be :>
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TEKKO CO-=WARHAWKS=-
"Turn and Face Your Foe"
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I enjoyed the comments of all the 'Net economist/accountant types. Was a great laugh. Pure speculation peddled as fact.
What I've seen is WB slamming AW for the game and AW slamming WB for pricing.
All I can tell you is that I'll go with the best deal: a great/good game for the right price. <I decline to comment on what pricing I will accept. The release of AH is still a ways off and the market can change considerably> (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I've read the comment that AW is outdated with no development. Not true, AW3 is only two years old and since then, a new game engine has been written to power two new sims from Kesmai; AW:Vietnam and AW4.
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2flie
Suicide Operations Group
"SOG!"
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Many have made comments here about hourly pricing versus a flat rate structure. Some have advocated keeping an hourly rate so as to keep the riff raff or dweebs out.
I submit first that there will be riff raff and dweebs even among the well heeled. I would also submit that what will keep them away will likely be a flight model way too realistic than they could bear. It would be too hard for them to have more than a passing interest.
What could also happen with a flat rate plan would be a community of competitors able to deal with the learning curve and evolve into very competitive pilots with similar desires: to fly a combat flight sim that is challenging, competitive and extremely engaging. The former group would come from the exisiting WB and AW communities as well as a smattering of folks brand spanking new to the world of online combat flight sims.
(It could happen) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Strider
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Anyone look at Imagic stock lately, its doubled in one week and looks like it will again today in the heaviest trading of the stock in years! Glad I got in last week when we thought it was over for Warbirds, they are definately still alive and well.
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Without going into the hourly vs flat rate
I would like to say it would be nice if us non US people could get whatever the rate is at par with US dollars :-) My $9.95 silver Wb account actually cost me $15.54 this month. That really sucks! A gas bar across the bridge did this a while back and you should have seen the line up he had! ;-)hint hint
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Rosco
*Flying Aces*
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How difficult would it be to design advertising bill boards in your scenery and charge those clients? Could it be a possible source of revenue? Imagine flying your P-51 past a Western Hotel sign on your way to do battle? Is it feasable? By doing this, would it be possible to go to a flat rate system, or a lower premium rate?
waleka
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Seems to me we need two pricing structures and two seperate servers. One server at $2.00 an hour so some members have their "community" and can keep out the "riff-raff".
There can be a flat rate of $10.00 to $12.00 a month for another server for pilots who are serious about flying but cannot justify the the hourly rate.
At some time the two servers can take sides (allied or axis) and receate a specific WWII campaign.
It's just a thought! :-)
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I'd say flat rate!
Doesn't matter if it's 10 or 20$,but if AH
is going to include some strategic elements,
it's essential to keep it flat.
When talking about a strategy, it means lots
of people acting together and that means much
time would spent for gatherings and flying to
waypoints. Many (?) people don't like to "waste" their money just for flying around,
but if flat rate, it wouldn't be the issue anymore...
Just my thoughts
Janne
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I think any online gaming company which decides to stick to a pay-per hour scheme will be begging for disaster. It is totally incompatible with the idea of "fun" when a player must count the seconds and dollars passing by while online. It won't work.
One way or the other, the market will go to flat rate sooner or later, and a company will be wise to realize this.
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I do like dekkers idea... it was first muted on the agw newsboard when kats started a link off... it does have alot of things going for it. What I would advocate would be that if you were shot down then you are charged .75c for a new aircraft... when you shoot down another aircraft you were awarded .25c for your trouble... if you could maintain a 1:1 k/d ratio then a new plane would cost you in effect .50c... its a nice idea that would force players to fly "historically" and carefully... you would see the standard of pilots rise through the roof. Don't know how practical it is though (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Regards
Daren
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Beaz
249 Squadron RAF "Gold Coast"
"With Fists and Heels"
Part of the Tangmere Wing
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I have to say that a flat rate of somewhere around $15-$20 would bring me back to the virtual skies. The cost of WB has just been to high for me in these days of responsible adult behavior. The $300 a month AW days where good but they are gone and its not just me. I have six or seven friends that would pay a reasonable flat rate to play WB but at $2 an hour none of us can or will. We simply cannot afford it.
I am keeping my fingers crossed that AH will offer something the other sims dont. A great game AND a great price. If AH has the goal of becomeing the WWII online flight sim that everyone plays then a flat rate makes since, but if the goal is just to keep a smaller number of loyal customers, then the hourly strategy may be what they have to use.
One thing is for sure I look forward to flying against you boys in beta. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Poof
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Troyboy
AirWarrior from 93 till just after Delphi joined the GEnie pilots. Truly the Best of Times
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Troyboy, you know that the actual platinum plan at WB costs 1.5$/h? They started to change price structure, something that the old company never did. And the software to give players FREE tickets for special events to organize big raids was already tested and worked.
The MA has more than 100 pilots again and more and more new blood is coming. And the new graphics engine for WB3.0 is a real blast. WB lives, others must show they have something that will live...
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Im just hoping that if i end up loving this game during the beta that i can afford to play it when it goes pay.
[This message has been edited by Cerberus-94th (edited 09-04-1999).]