Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: teufl on August 27, 2002, 04:23:23 PM
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I cant' t really believe it, a la7 ran down my tempest at low altitude, and I tried alot of manuevers to dislogde him. If a 70 perk plane can't out run a normal plane, then either the perked plane needs to be less perked or la7 needs to be perked. We had equal E and i believe both pilots had equal skill. .........T WIDOWMAKERS:(
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bahh np teufl i am sure kyle nows that hes a La7 dweeb :)
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I didnt think the tempest was much faster than a tiffie (which is damned fast) on the deck.
La7s are alot easier to deal with above 10k. Gettin on the deck with an la7 is a recipe for disaster IMO.
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awhhhhh baby u want a sucker :P
did u woose sone perk pwoints?
LOLOLOLOL
<> Teufl JK bro :D
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A Tempest will outrun,out turn(i think) and outclimb an LA7 with an equal E and Fuel state.
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you sure you didnt have drop tanks still on? :)
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I just did a casual H2H Lan comparison with a friend (Rutger), Tempest vs LA7 and found the following.
At sea level the Tempest seemed faster in full military than the La7 in Wep. These were informal tests, but we made some effort to neutralize e such as: slow down until I start gaining then open up the throttle. When he opened the throttle he would quickly pull away, when he hit WEP it was dramatic.
I seemed to be able to outloop and out flat-turn the tempest. I had no problem pulling through to get a good lead deflection, repetedly, during the nose to tail circling and looping.
Charon
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I haven't had time to look up values/data/etc. but if memory serves the Tempest V, while having a top speed and HP advantage at all altitudes, will be outaccelerated by an La-7 on the deck (due to the La-7, while having less HP than the Tempest V, still having an engine that rates a great deal of HP and also being significantly lighter than the tempest).
The end result is this - if you are in a Tempest V, on the deck, and an La-7 dives on you with superior speed/'E state', you could be in alot of trouble. You have more wing area which = more drag so any maneuvers you conduct are going to burn more E than the La-7 would burn unless he 'over bit' trying to match your maneuvers and keep you in his front 60.
So basically unless he screws up and allows you some separation and time to build up speed (by 'blowing' a maneuver or two)...start screaming on the CSAR net.
Think about it this way - you probably have ~10 MPH of top speed over the La-7 on the deck if both of you are using WEP. But at the same time, you probably weigh ~3500 lb. or more than said La-7. If you get 'caught' on the deck you need to be able to not get shot for a long enough period of time for your top speed advantage to get you some separation. But because you are going to lose more E in any given maneuver, this is a very tough thing to do.
If a La-7 get wtihin gun range of a Tempest V at sea level, and the La-7 also has an 'E state advantage' (i.e. it's not catching the Tempest V at range 450 for 3 seconds at peak speed after a dive while the Tempest is cruising at the La-7s peak speed+10 MPH), the Tempest V is in deep weeds.
Mike/wulfie
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Kyle's pretty good in the La-7..but I met him in quite a few engagements, and shot him down a few times in a 1-vs-1 situation in the La-5FN. The only instance where he shot me down was when it was a vulch-situation(where he usually enters the scene). The rest cases I've been shot down were all from his N1K2s.
He's not as sharp in the La-7 as he is in the N1K2(and also, not as sharp when flying alone, without the usual cronies he brings along. In fact, his La-7 is pretty much basic - disciplined, but nothing extraordinary. The only exceptional thing I notice is the knack for long-range shots, hitting 600~700 yards with even the ShVAKs(or maybe Beresins). You think you gained enough range to extend and then wham, pow, a burst of 20mms and you are damaged or downed.
Therefore, I'm pretty sure you missed something - maybe he had an initial E advantage you didn't notice, or maybe you misjudged something. Whatever it was, it was probably something you didn't catch. My bet is on in truth, he came down on you with some sort of E advantage.
So, I bet it went like this; you decide to extend away, he targets you with an E-advabtage you didn't realize. He catches up with you briefly before you reach full speed on WEP(by this time, you two are probably down at deck and with only each other).
Then, he probably bursts a stream of long-range shot which a few pings land on you, and in disbelief, you decide to jink. That small jink was enough E-loss and he probably got to catch up with you. You try a few maneuvers, each time trying to get a situation where you can out accelerate him.. and every time when you seem to be gaining distance he'll do a pretty accurate spray, and you have to turn again.
It's a pretty typical behavior in notorious N1K2 drivers. They shove 20mms up your arse at ranges you can't believe, whether you are jinking or not.
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Check out the charts.
The tempest should be faster if both planes are either both on or off WEP simultaneously. If the Temp is off WEP and the La7 is on it, it will catch the tempest.
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/models/charts/tempestspeed.gif)(http://www.hitechcreations.com/models/charts/la7speed.gif)
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Spa,
Use this...Joechen's stuff is awesome. :)
http://www.jannousiainen.net/online_sims/jg_4/index.htm
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Thnx for the link Mitsu.That is truely excellant charts!
Joechen!
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--edited--thinking of something else.
These are soviet built machines, and any test results are sure to be padded.
Really though when it comes down to it, the la7 can run from anything. You can hop into an la7 during a major attack on one of your bases, goon hunt all day, and land when you run out of ammo. As long as you can get up to speed, you're pretty much safe. If the la7's speed is correct, there is no way that thing deserves to be unperked.
And no "Well it's worthless above 10k", is not a valid argument for it's remaining unperked. 90% of fights occur under 10 thousand feet, making low level performance the most important aspect of any plane. An la7 getting caught at a high alt with a disadvantage can easily drop down to low levels where he has the edge.
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Why would the Soviet results be padded any more than the American, British, German, or Japanese ones?
The La7 is one of a few units that is in the game to allow newbies to compete and feel good about themselves. If you perked it, you'd probably end up with less newbies in the game, which would be bad for HTC financially. Fortunately for everyone, most people who fly the La7 couldnt find their bellybutton with both hands, so you can kill em in whatever your favorite ride happens to be. Get a good pilot in the La7 and he will be unstoppable.
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Originally posted by Urchin
Why would the Soviet results be padded any more than the American, British, German, or Japanese ones?
Fortunately for everyone, most people who fly the La7 couldnt find their bellybutton with both hands, so you can kill em in whatever your favorite ride happens to be. Get a good pilot in the La7 and he will be unstoppable.
The soviets are famous for never admitting faults, even when they are so old that said faults have become moot.
As for your comment on newbies flying the la7, this argument also applies to the spit14, f4u4, tempest, 262, etc. Just because it's flown by newbies doesn't mean it's needed. And just because a plane is easy to kill BECAUSE it's mostly flown by newbies, means little. The average pilot you meet in it doesn't matter. It's what happens when you get a pilot who knows how to fly it. If the average pilot skill in each plane mattered, we wouldn't need the perk planes to be perked.
Dweeb planes aren't needed for newbies. Despite what many seem to think, giving a newbie a perk-performing plane isnt a big help. There will always be good newbie planes just like there will always be a "Fastest unperked" plane. Planes such as the spit9, n1k2, etc make excellent newbie planes, and do not warrent being perked. ANY plane which out-performs so many planes like that deserves to be perked. If newbies use it because they can get kills, vets will use it because it makes them invulnerable.
The la7 perked, would have to be cheap, 10 perks or so. Cheap enough that even newbies could afford to use it.
Okay, Now before someone jumps in with "Well if you perk the la7, something else will become the fastest free plane" let me respond. First off, the la7's high top speed is only important because of it's unbelievably accelleration. It's able to maneuver, and be back up to 380mph very quickly. And second, once you get rid of the la7, the speed gaps between everything become quite a bit smaller. There is no other plane able to accellerate away from a fight like that.
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LA7 are also good for us solo guys, newbies or not, to help avoid all you experienced, rough and ready squadron/mission gangbang dweebs :) I'd rather not be all alone fighting your 5 v 1 combination of zeroes/Spit 5s/Spit 9s/P-51s/and La7s if I can help it. Sorry, I like to know the person who kills me after a hard fight, and not just be the victim at the end of the conga line. There are exceptions though, like the time in a zero where I landed five kills without firing a shot because the conga line killshot each other or crashed into the ground in their frenzy to get a shot in on me. I wondered where they all got too all of a sudden :)
You don’t even need to cherry pick in an LA7 when odds are even (I'm actuall an angle fighting spit dweeb at heart, except Spits don't quite cut it against the uber rides). You can actually "turn fight" pretty aggressively (especially against a Spit 9 or N1K2) in an LA7 if your turns happen to be out of plane vertical maneuvers.
If you want to perk it -- then by all means. I won't lose any sleep over it. Just perk the P-51D and the other 1944 rides too. Frankly, though, if it had better guns/ammo it would be more of a perk candidate.
Charon
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well, just my opinion, but...
You said you tried a lot of manuevers to dislodge him.
I have found that if there is a bit of distance between me and who I am chasing, that if they do a lot of "maneuvers" they are essentialy wasting "E". If I have ground to make up to get to them, I don't match them with manuevers, rather I just keep an eye on them and generally follow them with as little control input as possible. Every time you disrupt airflow (ie: move a control)
you sacrifice energy. Now, if he was at a distance of over 1K this is quite possible. I have run down faster aircraft just by being gentle and patient. You may have lots of airspeed, but this is not the same as distance travelled. I can fly 10 miles and still be within 1 mile of my home airfield. Hope this makes some semblance of sense. (RTR's had a few wobbly pops tonite heh).
And , I recognize the handle....good stick, just wish it wasn't on my six!
Cheers, hope this made sense and helped a bit.
RTR
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well, just my opinion, but...
You said you tried a lot of manuevers to dislodge him.
I have found that if there is a bit of distance between me and who I am chasing, that if they do a lot of "maneuvers" they are essentialy wasting "E". If I have ground to make up to get to them, I don't match them with manuevers, rather I just keep an eye on them and generally follow them with as little control input as possible. Every time you disrupt airflow (ie: move a control)
you sacrifice energy. Now, if he was at a distance of over 1K this is quite possible. I have run down faster aircraft just by being gentle and patient. You may have lots of airspeed, but this is not the same as distance travelled. I can fly 10 miles and still be within 1 mile of my home airfield. Hope this makes some semblance of sense. (RTR's had a few wobbly pops tonite heh).
And , I recognize the handle....good stick, just wish it wasn't on my six!
Cheers, hope this made sense and helped a bit.
RTR
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I prefer the Yak these days - it's a better all round fighter than the La-7 and more of a challenge to fly. Sure, it doesn't have the hitting power of the La-7 and the ammo is limited, but against La-7s its quite a pleasant ride. It's speed and climb rate makes it survivable when being gang banged.
It's great when La-7s try to turnfight you :). And I love surprising them with rudder assisted scissors.
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Rule #1: I never run from any Lavochkin. I simply turn around and kill them. Sure, the La-7 is fast.... So what? If I were flying a Tempest, I'd make the Dweeb face my four Hizookas. If you're gonna fly heavily perked fighters, you cannot afford to be timid with them. That alone will make you surrender the advantage their performance provides. In other words, be very aggressive. You will find that the Spitfire XIV eats La-7s alive. It does everything better than the Lavochkin, except run at low level. Likewise for the Tempest, although its edge in turn performance is only marginal, it is a bit faster on the deck.
If you get caught low and slow by any fighter having a marked E advantage, you MUST turn into him. Running only solidifies your initial disadvantage. Again, be aggressive! Hell, I've attacked and killed La-7s and Doras with an SBD. Nothing upsets the E-fighter's applecart like finding themselves having to burn E because you forced them to maneuver.
My best advice is this: Stop worrying about what the La-7 might do to you, and start thinking about what you are going to do to him.
My regards,
Widewing
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Spit 14 will get mauled by an La-7 on the deck. The La-7 accelerates better, is faster, has almost as much firepower, turns just about as good. The only advantage the Spit 14 has is in a sustained climb. Same story with the F4U4. The Ta152 isn't even in the same league as the La7, a Spit 9 will eat the Ta152 for lunch on the deck. The Tempest is the best 'all-round' perk plane, and it is probably about even with the La-7 on the deck.
Now, the La-7 can be killed, don't get me wrong. Hell, I died 3 or 4 times today in it, which is more than I've died the whole tour to date. The secret is to get some fast planes and some good turning planes, and gangbang it. If the fight is one on one, you have to be a better pilot than the La7 pilot is, or you will lose. If it is 3 or 4 on one, even the best La7 pilot will get overwhelmed. At least if you get your fast BnZ planes to slow him down enough so the good turning planes can engage him.
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The biggest problem with dogfighting in a Tempest or any other perk bird is the overwhelming need to fight like a girl when in one.
I can win most one on ones with a F4U-1 but put me in the far "superior" F4U-4 and I can't tie my shoes.
As long as they are perked one cannot hope to fight the good fight. It's like driving in your dads car when your 16 years old. Your scared to death to break it so you drive differently that you normally would and invariably wreck the car.
Maybe if there was an RPS in AH you would get to fly a real Tempest La-7 engagement but not here right now.
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Originally posted by Urchin
Spit 14 will get mauled by an La-7 on the deck. The La-7 accelerates better, is faster, has almost as much firepower, turns just about as good. The only advantage the Spit 14 has is in a sustained climb. Same story with the F4U4. The Ta152 isn't even in the same league as the La7, a Spit 9 will eat the Ta152 for lunch on the deck. The Tempest is the best 'all-round' perk plane, and it is probably about even with the La-7 on the deck.
Now, the La-7 can be killed, don't get me wrong. Hell, I died 3 or 4 times today in it, which is more than I've died the whole tour to date. The secret is to get some fast planes and some good turning planes, and gangbang it. If the fight is one on one, you have to be a better pilot than the La7 pilot is, or you will lose. If it is 3 or 4 on one, even the best La7 pilot will get overwhelmed. At least if you get your fast BnZ planes to slow him down enough so the good turning planes can engage him.
I have yet to work up a sweat tangling with La-7s while flying a Spitfire XIV (two or three engagements). In terms of sustained turn rate, the Lavochkin is not a match for the Spit XIV. So far this tour, I've killed La-7s in the P-51 (3), FM-2 (5), N1K2 (2) and SBD (2). My losses? One SBD, but only after I had killed two fighters with it, and I was still hauling a 1k bomb (I hate to just dump ord). Honestly, I find Yaks more of a challenge than La-7s. Probably because you find few noobs and dweebs in Yaks.
Where the La-7 really falls short is its miserable guns. Taking on any Hispano armed fighter in a head-on is a really bad idea. When one considers that the Hizookas can kill at nearly twice the effective range of the Soviet cannons, I would make a serious effort not to accept an HO with a Tiffy, Tempest, C-Hog or Spitfire.
Ultimately, however, everything boils down to tactics and situational awareness. I don't care what you fly, if a pilot is weak in either area, he will do poorly.
My regards,
Widewing
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The Tempest can break 400mph below 6K and is faster than the La7 at all altitudes under 10K and over about 13K. At sea level the Tempest is only about 6mph faster though so that is awefully close. If you run your Tempest out of WEP you aren't as fast below about 3K. If the La7 caught you it was because of situation. He must have had enough speed advantage to get you turning, in which case it could have a been any number of planes who could have also caught you, P-51, 190D9, 109G10, Typhoon, etc.
I've run lots of tests on top speeds at altitudes and the La7 cannont catch a Tempest, but can run down most everything else when low. You get your Tempest up to only 6K and kick in the WEP and you can pull almost 420mph. Nothing except a Me262 is going to touch that right now.
-Soda
The Assassins.
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Originally posted by teufl
I cant' t really believe it, a la7 ran down my tempest at low altitude, and I tried alot of manuevers to dislogde him. If a 70 perk plane can't out run a normal plane, then either the perked plane needs to be less perked or la7 needs to be perked. We had equal E and i believe both pilots had equal skill. .........T WIDOWMAKERS:(
Try a right turn, clyde. :)
curly